Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Will do my very best..and sorry. Was more worried about cutting out something relavent then leaving chaff in there.

Will do better oh lord of the 8th plane of hell *wink*

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree...yeesh. And to think originally I was going to avoid OT stuff here...lol.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Hey I have said it before and I will say it again, discussion over differing points of view regarding a world topic is good for all of us. Sure we might get mand, frustrated, and hot, but at least we are talking and learning, I hope, from one another. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OT discussion are the hidden black market that keeps this forum alive.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like I say, another Saddam will rise up to take his place as soon as the Americans pull out. Or, more likely, a dozen mini-saddams all fighting it out.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed, there has always been tension, although in recent times it's mainly been down to ex-colonial tensions and the whole Isreali issue rather than the crusades. However that's no reason to just say "sod it, it's bad, let's make it worse."

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which just goes to show how poorly the US understands the mentality out there. Many of the Iraqi attacks on on US troops right now are not Al Qaeda operastives or Saddam's guerilla's, they are regular people repaying blood debts incurred during or shortly after the war. Many Iraqis- particularly in Bhagdad *had* nice homes, families, lives and so on before the war. What are those people doing now? Blowing **** up in Baghdad. What about those brits and americans who went over to afghanistan to risk their lives fighting the americans?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THis still goes on, only now it's the so called "liberators" doing it. FOr as long as they've been in control of Iraq the US has been scooping people up in the dead of night - men, women and children- and whisking them off to camp X-Ray and more local destinations for torture and- sometimes- death. All without trial.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hundreds of thousands? I assume those figures are based on the deaths caused by international sanctions in the Last 15 years.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't you? What do you see? Are you sure you're watching the news and not the Cosby Show?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Last I heard all was not rosy in Afghanistan. We just don't hear about it because of the press' short attention span. Anyone know the latest on what's going on out there?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hooray. Whoopee. Let's throw a party. I don't quite see the relevance, or how that's supposed to endear the US to me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Addressed by others before I wrote this...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you go back to my original post you;ll see that I didn't include the definite article. I said "Saudi Arabians", not "THE Saudi Arabians".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think we're well on the way. The PNAC seems to lean more toward the former than the latter.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow, that makes me really happy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, what channel are you watching? As soon as the twin towers dropped, Bush gave in to the howls for heads and invaded Afghanistan. Then he tried to stir up even more bloodlust so he could take on Iraq and started positioning himself for the grand tour.

And I'll say once again, even if you disagree with all this, you need to appreciate that much (most?) of the world seems to feel the same. ANd you can't just brush me off for being "part of a crowd of people that don't have a clue". If the US is as wonderful as you say it is and so many ppl don't have a clue, you need to ask yourself why? Why are we so misinformed? What are you doing wrong with your PR that your image is so badly misaligned with reality? Or could we actually be right about some or all of this?

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Just to clarify, I am basing everything I said in my post on unclassified sources! Holy Cow, I would NEVER make any classified claims. The FACT that there was no connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda has been widely reported, verified, and bandied about in the press. Even the administration agrees now that Saddam and Al Qaeda were not friends, ever. Heck, even after the war, captured documents reported in the media showed that Saddam *still* urged his followers to not cooperate with AQ, even when he was living in a dirt bunker and moving from safe house to safe house. Anyone who thinks that there was a connection between AQ and Saddam is engaging in wqillful ignorance and has made a conscious decision to avoid the unpleasant truth (and, I would say, the cognitive dissonance that comes with it).

EDIT: just to clarify re: "my credentials" - My work is boring. I'm an operational analyst, very boring stuff, not intel related *at all* And all my Posts have nothing to do with my work (as far as I recall). I merely stated those things about myself because in today's political environment, everyone is all about ad hominen attacks and I wanted to avoid the inevitable "we'll you're just a liberal so of course you'd say that" phenomenon.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ May 26, 2004, 12:41: Message edited by: alarikf ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

My sources are various, I would say "Le Monde Diplomatique",some other newspaper (on the web, mostly US ones) and Stratfor.

www.stratfor.com
it is a private intelligence service dealing with geopolitical policies. I have a basic subscription there. But your are allowed to publish only certain analysis, of course not all of them. However, you can suscribe for their weekly newsletter for free.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

rextorres
i think that based on the track record of inteligence that having an inside scoop is a bag of beans , of the non magical nature.

Simeron. You fail to release the most of the world does not think of America as saviours. Based on the track record of the actions of USA since the end of WW2 I agree with them.

I am looking forward to when this mess can be cleared up. From the two contrieved invasions to the stupid security procedures that are slowly closing off our shared open border.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Simeron the Foxnews article gives an excellent example of how the Americans are misled by the media (the government) into believing their country is succeeding at the goals set.

Hamas never had any power towards the US, it's a group of terrorists that operate solely on Israelian/palestian (to me unlike for Americans this still isn't decided yet) soil.
The fact they back off their earlier threats, is because of the US is for the first time CONSIDERING to review their unconditional support towards the Israelians who have been greatly misgoverning the situation there. This has nothing to do with the military actions of the US in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Fox just makes it look as if "fear" (can you seriously frighten a deeply religious civilization with only death???) will make the terrorists comply to US demands/rules/utopia.

Second: Invading Iraq of course was a big mistake. Yes, Saddam=cruel dictator, but not as fundamentalistic as Al-quade and I guarantee you far too intelligent to even to go into jihad against USA.
It is a fact he had WMD's: USA sold a LOT of WMD's to Iraq in the late 80's, especially chemicals and nerve agents which was for the USA an excellent opportunity to monitor the fatality rate amongst the kurds, dispergation at various circumstances etc. That is a fact. Monitoring this, they knew how much was used and thus would remain.
Yes Iraq had, and maybe still has WMD's but no way to deliver them to the US since scuds don't get past the 150 miles mark IIRC.

Saddam hated Al-quada and vice-versa. Now saddam is down. The people of Iraq are regrouping, they have their differences and can be considered as eachothers enemies but they share one common thing: they HATE America. So they start working together now, and this is where Al-Q (who NEVER would have gotten into Iraq earlier) comes in. They organise stuff, and help them to work together, construct bombs and other evil stuff.

In the end USA will have to leave, as they already starting to talk about that now. It's already out of control.
USA media will make it look nice to the USA-pop but I know it will be a monstrosity. A fundamentalistic country, in full support of Al-Q and its terror.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Ya know, I'm proud to be an American. I'm also ashamed to be an American. Why? Because America has given me the chance to have an open and objective mind. It's this freedom that allows me to dislike (and be ashamed) of some of the things it has done. A dichotomy of sorts.

But I'm not here to represent the "band" of Americans who love to trash their country. Nor am I here to spew forth "blind" pablum about how great America is. I call it as I see it.

EVERY country dabbles in controlling the information (and "spin") delivered to its citizens. Everyone needs to understand that. I'm sure it has the appropriate "twist" to make each citizen think their country is great while others fail to measure up. It's just a fact of what a country does.

America has done some great things and it has done some terrible things. It has done right and done wrong. It's likely we (Americans) are more in the limelight when we do it than other countries. But all countries are the same in that they have made similar mistakes.

I have had the opportunity to visit over 20 other countries, speak with many, many of those people, and listen. It gives me, I think, a bit of perspective that other Americans who have never left our borders don't have.

Now, in the present discussion, I think the US did wrong. The "facts" that were presented to the US public, IMO, were distorted to generate support. I don't know the real reason we went to Iraq. Maybe will never know. I'm cynical enough to even consider it was a "payoff" for campaign support to the big defense manufacturers.

History DOES show one thing, though...a rather miserable track record of "walking into other countries" and helping set up a government and leader (can you say, "Manuel Noriega, Ferdinand Marcos, Baby "Doc" Duvalier, and the ex-Shah of Iran"?).

I'll close with a quote from "The Devil's Dictionary" written (a compilation) by Ambrose Bierce (that has some application here):

REVOLUTION, n. In politics, an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment. Specifically, in American history, the substitution of the rule of an Administration for that of a Ministry, whereby the welfare and happiness of the people were advanced a full half-inch. Revolutions are usually accompanied by a considerable effusion of blood, but are accounted worth it--this appraisment being made by the beneficiaries whose blood had not the mischance to be shed."

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, the track record is overall pretty neutral. Consider nations such as Japan and Germany after WWII. Definitely new governments were set up after "walking into" these nations.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Sorry in advance if I offend anyone with this one, but it was too good not to post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Personally, I think Secretary Powell may be exagerating just a bit again...


http://server5.uploadit.org/files/ge...washington.jpg

[ May 27, 2004, 13:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, the track record is overall pretty neutral. Consider nations such as Japan and Germany after WWII. Definitely new governments were set up after "walking into" these nations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was referring to countries that the US decided needed a change of leadership (and then helped instigate it), NOT countries that went to war with us (and therefore, "earned" the US interest in establishing new leadership THAT way). A difference, the way I see it.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hehe, good one. maybe Powell says what it would look like if he got himself upgraded to an ICBM sized thingie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

The Michael Moore movie has been released and reviewed by Fox news. Since they are generally considered a "right-wing" news source, and it would be expected that they would trash it, I wanted to post their review here. (fm: http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...22680,00.html)

'Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovations

Tuesday, June 15, 2004

By Roger Friedman

The crowd that gave Michael Moore's controversial "Fahrenheit 9/11" a standing ovation Last night at the Ziegfeld Theatre premiere certainly didn't have to be encouraged at all to show their appreciation. From liberal radio host and writer Al Franken to actor/director Tim Robbins, Moore was in his element. But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" ? as we saw Last night ? is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty, and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice. Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets like Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say. Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and Bin Laden families.

First, I know you want to know who came to the Ziegfeld, so here is just a partial list. Besides Franken and Robbins, Al Sharpton, Mike Myers, Tony Bennett, Glenn Close, Gretchen Mol (newly married over the weekend to director Todd Williams), Lori Singer, Tony Kushner, "Angela's Ashes" author Frank McCourt, Jill Krementz and Kurt Vonnegut, Lauren Bacall (chatting up a fully refurbished Lauren Hutton), Richard Gere, John McEnroe and Patti Smythe, former Carter cabinet member and ambassador Richard Holbrooke, Carson Daly, NBC's Jeff Zucker, a very pregnant Rory Kennedy, playwright Israel Horovitz, Macaulay Culkin, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Kyra Sedgwick, Linda Evangelista, Ed Bradley, Tom and Meredith Brokaw, director Barry Levinson, NBC anchor Brian Williams, Vernon Jordan, Eva Mendez, Sandra Bernhard and the always humorous Joy Behar.

If that's not enough, how about Yoko Ono, accompanied by her son, Sean, who's let his hair grow out and is now sporting a bushy beard that makes him look like his late, beloved father John Lennon?

And then, just to show you how much people wanted to see this film, there was Martha Stewart, looking terrific. I mean, talk about eclectic Groups!

Now, unless you've been living under a rock you know that this movie has been the cause of a lot of trouble. Miramax and Disney have gone to war over it, and "The Passion of the Christ" seems like "Mary Poppins" in retrospect. Before anyone's even seen it, there have been partisan debates over which way Moore may have spun this or that to get a desired effect.

But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. The film does Bush no favors, that's for sure, but it also finds an unexpectedly poignant and universal groove in the story of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Michigan mother who sends her kids into the Army for the opportunities it can provide ? just like the commercials say ? and lives to regret it. Lipscombe's story is so powerful, and so completely Middle American, that I think it will take Moore's critics by surprise. She will certainly move to tears everyone who encounters her.

"F9/11" isn't perfect, and of course, there are leaps of logic sometimes. One set piece is about African American congressmen and women voting against the war with Iraq and wondering why there are no Senators to support them. Indeed, those absent senators include John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy, among others, which Moore does not elaborate upon. At no point are liberals or Democrats taken to task for not speaking out against the war, and I would have liked to have seen that.

On the other hand, there are more than enough moments that seemed to resonate with the huge Ziegfeld audience. The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.

More than even "The Passion of the Christ," "F9/11" is going to be a "see it for yourself" movie when it hits theaters on June 25. It simply cannot be missed, and I predict it will be a huge moneymaker. And that's where Disney's Michael Eisner comes in. Not releasing this film will turn out to be the curse of his career. When Eisner came into Disney years ago, the studio was at a low point. He turned it around with a revived animation department and comedy hits like "Pretty Woman" and "Down and Out in Beverly Hills." But Eisner's short-sightedness on many recent matters has been his undoing. And this Last misadventure is one that will follow him right out the doors of the Magic Kingdom.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Of interest, an article on the report of the partially released 9/11 Commission titled "9/11 Panel Finds No Collaboration Between Iraq, Al Qaeda"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Thanks for the info. Never the less I have no intention of seeing this documentary nor will I validate Moore by giving him phraise when he does not deserve any. If this movie would have been released in 2001 it would have suicide for him. He rolled the dice and is now raking in the $ knowning full well that there is very little truth to his subjective - decidedly one sided - attack on Bush.

Oh well, free speech and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

But, dude, uh....you haven't seen the movie. How do you know? I mean, ad hominem and all that, right?

My opinion? I think that our society, especially lately, is too partisan and has lost the ability to debate logically. Personal example: I haven't seen Passion of the Christ movie, so I try not to comment on it. I'd like to see it, I've even brought up the idea of seeing it to my wife. That didn't go too far, let me tell ya. I say, see it so I can comment on it from an informed perspective, she says not a chance she's seeing it.

Another example, a bit more personal: For years I was pro gun-control. But I was never really informed on the issue, I admit. After many discussions with others who were very pro-NRA (some of them even having been in "militias") I got a new appreciation of the whole issue. While I disagree with much of their reasoning, I do understand how they feel the way they do and nowadays I'm pretty open about gun ownership.

Now, admittedly, some issues have chasms that people can't bridge since they are values-based, rather than process-based or fact-based. Abortion is the perrenial example. I think I have a pretty good handle on the arguments on both sides of the issue, and, alas, in the end it comes down to values - not facts, or anything else.

So, for those reasons, I do read Fox News, I do listen to O'Reilly (when I've the time) and I do thumb through both conservative and progressive news magazines, etc...

I guess th epoint being is that, from Logic 101, any given argument must be judged on its merits alone, not on the person making the argument.

Thought experiment: if "Farenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly the same, would you see it?

Just my .02c...

Alarik

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ June 16, 2004, 17:11: Message edited by: alarikf ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

You make good points, but the problem with Moore is that he HATES debating his point of view. He just wants everyone to accept it as reality when in fact it is just jibberish and conspiricy theories.

There is no debating this movie. It is a one sided representation of one mans hatred of another. Nuff said.

Why would I want to pay Moore to see his no counter point documentarial attack on the Bush when he himself has admitted that it is a bit "far fetched" and such. Hell if Disney pulled it from the US market then you know there was something wrong with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(edit) I may not have seen this latest movie but I have seen Roger and Me and his tv spots where he took the NRA interview completely out of context and made the entire organization out to be the next Nazi's of America.

Many phraised Moore as a man of the people and thanked him for his work on exposing the evil within the NRA. (LOL) Then when the NRA published the whole interview and showed the world what he did, and well his credibility went out the window.

With Mr. Moore it is all about credibility; he has none. He makes documentaries/movies based on his view of the subject and does not allow for any other interpitation. That makes his works one sided and open to attack. If he would do a real movie about the facts and have counter point, then no one would go see them. So again, he sticks to his one sided skewed view of a subject and ramps up all the publicity and controversy he can get in order to get people to watch his movies.

The thing is he is a great story tellor, I would love to see what he could do if he put aside his politic views and made a real documentary based on real facts and not conspiricy.

I recall in the earily 90's he was going to do a documentary on how NASA faked the moon landing and how they dilibrately blew up the Challenger in order to kill a whistle blower. That project was understandably declined by every one to whom he pitched it. (Thank God.)

Moore has a talent for P/O people and it is really a shame that he doesn't put his gift to better use in making movies and or documentaries that everyone can enjoy.

In the end whatever side you choose it all boils down to what you believe. I like the fact that some people choose to be informed and refuse to eat the crap the our media is fixated upon shovelling. But honestly this whole thing is just one long chapter in human history. In the end we will be right back where we started having learned nothing and forgotten everything.

And the page turns.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I would not. Again it boils down to a one side view. I just want the full picture not someones subjective views on it who refuse to listen to or suffor counter opinions.

[ June 16, 2004, 17:44: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I read (a long time ago) that the Cosby Show contained subtle racism...that there was an intent in the show to show caucasions in the same kind of negative light that some many shows (before that) showed African-Americans.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Attrocities, even if I accept all your premises as fact without questioning, the logic of what you wrote seems absent.

You acknowldge logic, and then dismiss it based on fixed belief:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then you write as if you know both Moore's intention and the facts:

Quote:

He just wants everyone to accept it as reality when in fact it is just jibberish and conspiricy theories.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then, I certainly hope your Last line is ironic and not serious:

Quote:

... Hell if Disney pulled it from the US market then you know there was something wrong with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's sad is that Baptist/corporate Disney does determine a significant part of Americans' education and exposure to ideas, by its huge presence in the entertainment media.

Not to mention Fox and the rest of the corporate US "news" media, with their IQ 90 or less target demo pretending to fill the role of journalists, and thereby obstructing public contact with intelligent journalism.

PvK

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I read (a long time ago) that the Cosby Show contained subtle racism...that there was an intent in the show to show caucasions in the same kind of negative light that some many shows (before that) showed African-Americans. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok. I omitted the background that I'm no fan nor advocate of the Cosby Show, either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, to extract a quote from below:

"But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat."

Personally, you're free to feel how you feel (in fact, I served to help maintain those freedoms) but I have to agree with the above remark. I, being a somewhat intelligent and open-minded individual, have a hard time understanding people who hate something and do so without the privilege of having firsthand knowledge of it. Good thing everyone doesn't do that all the time, or so-and-so would would hate Asians merely because of all the stories his (biased) friends told him.

Me? I'm not scared of looking into something I disagree with just to see if all the related material I based my opinions on prior to this event were, in fact, erroneous themselves! Currently, on the US/Iraq topic, many many more highly educated/informed people than you and I have began to wonder what the heck was going on as there still have been no weapons of mass destruction and just recently, a panel has shown there to be (it seems) no connection between Al Queda and Iraq. You would think intelligent and open-minded people would begin asking questions instead of blindly accepting what the administration told them (us) over a year ago.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

PvK I don't mean to confuse you or any one. I honestly just don't really care to debate sematics or peoples take on what they think was said.

I trust in that people will either accept what I say or will not. If they choose not to then that is fine with me.

When the debate turns south and every word is reflected upon for meaning, that is when I say take it or leave it for whatever you want it to mean.

If you want to break down what I said and try to use it against me well that is your given right and I really could careless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

The point I was trying to make is that it is not semantics at all, in fact, it's the opposite. Words do have meaning (unless you're a hardcore deconstructionist, and there are probably very few of those on this forum I suspect) and by your words it really does appear that what you said was that you don't care about the movie, you care about Moore. Which is fine. Repeat: fine. BUT but to then take that statement as a condemnation of the movie is contrary to basic logic. Am I getting it wrong?

So, just to be snarky ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) I'll repeat an earlier question: if "farhenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly identical, would you go see it?


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, to extract a quote from below:

"But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat."

Personally, you're free to feel how you feel (in fact, I served to help maintain those freedoms) but I have to agree with the above remark. I, being a somewhat intelligent and open-minded individual, have a hard time understanding people who hate something and do so without the privilege of having firsthand knowledge of it. Good thing everyone doesn't do that all the time, or so-and-so would would hate Asians merely because of all the stories his (biased) friends told him.

Me? I'm not scared of looking into something I disagree with just to see if all the related material I based my opinions on prior to this event were, in fact, erroneous themselves! Currently, on the US/Iraq topic, many many more highly educated/informed people than you and I have began to wonder what the heck was going on as there still have been no weapons of mass destruction and just recently, a panel has shown there to be (it seems) no connection between Al Queda and Iraq. You would think intelligent and open-minded people would begin asking questions instead of blindly accepting what the administration told them (us) over a year ago. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am informed about Mr. Moores tactics and choices when it comes to making his documentaries. I may not have seen his movie to know that it is what it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 16, 2004, 18:10: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Dude! The Cosby show rocks! It's like the "Leave it to Beaver" of the 80-90s!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ June 16, 2004, 18:07: Message edited by: alarikf ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[/QB][/quote]

I guess the point your trying to make is that I should see the movie before commenting on it. I understand that POV however knowning the Man who made the movie allows me an insight into what the movie will have to say. I simply do not wish to suffor that kind of one sided arguement.

I have neither read or seen anything about this movie that would redeem it enough in my eyes for me to consider seeing it.

I am sorry, but that is how I honestly feel.

Edit
I did respond to your question. (OBTW good question too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

quote:
Thought experiment: if "Farenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly the same, would you see it?

No I would not. Again it boils down to a one side view. I just want the full picture not someones subjective views on it who refuse to listen to or suffor counter opinions.

[ June 16, 2004, 18:18: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

I'll take the bait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So, let me see. First, I think I must not have been that clear. I didn't intent to say that having an opinion of the movie based on an opinion of Moore is "jacka**ed" in some way. Rather I'm just saying it's illogical. Illogical in the sense that from an logic 101 "If A= B and B = C then A = C" point of view.

So, with that in mind, when you say "my opinion that it is a bad movie without having seen it first is an abrgation of my 1st ammendment would be in and of itself an abrogation of my first amendment rights."

Is absolutely true logically and content-wise. But just to clarify: you're stating the same right that people claim when they say "Hey, no one can force me to vote!"

Is absolutely true. And pretty silly, as well.


It is also true, as you state, that "I am free to have my own opinion of this movie and the man without ever having seen it."

But, it is not valid, therefore, to claim that you are making this statement based on logic, nor can you then, legitimately, make further claims based on logic.

And, just becuase you dared someone too, you then go on to say "no matter what someone else may think or say about my right to comment on this movie without having seen it, is false logic." But the entire earlier statement is based on false logic. Now I've confused myself, actually, but its clear to me that we've reached a point herein where a meeting of the minds seems unlikely, since we're effectively talking using two different langauges. (I really do need to bone up on my habermas to understand this better)

From Webster's:

ad hom·i·nem : Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

More at:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad%20hominem

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Cool, now I got it.

Why are you "sorry"? especially for how you "honestly feel"? gads, one should never be sorry for that, of all things! Oh, but, wait, you probably mean "sorry" in the sense of not apoligizing for an action but apologizing for perceived offense given. Well, no offense taken here, so no worries there. Sorry! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Did't see your reply earlier. Thansk for the clarification. My bad.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Just a question, regarding "Bowling for Columbine" for those who have seen it... when I saw it, I really did not come away with any anti-NRA feelings at all. Opponents of the documentary seem to cite the anti-NRA message a lot, especially the sliced-and-diced interview with Charlton Heston. I didn't really think it made him into a defenseless target, since (IIRC) he was just portrayed as refusing to discuss about a situation with a child being killed with a gun while having no prior knowledge of the specific case.

What I did come away with was what I thought was the central thesis to the film: many problems in the US, with guns and other things, has mainly to do with the constant fear-mongering by the political and media systems. Did anyone else come away from it with the same message?

And AT, I do hope that you eventually go see F9/11. As long as you know the (apparent) bias in the film, you will come away with a better understanding of the viewpoints opposite of your own, and can then strengthen or amend your own views based on that knowledge.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Damn it! I missed the season finally of the Shield! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very glad to find someone from the same advice as me. It really seemed to me the film was more a charge versus US media system than versus the NRA.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

There was definitely a pot shot taken against Charleton Heston, but the film as a whole had nothing to do with the NRA.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In Atlanta, it comes on 2 more days (our recorder missed the Last minute!)

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it was, definitely. It's raises some very interesting questions about why gun crime is so high in the USA, when other countries with similar gun ownership laws and levels - Canada being the prime example - have figures so much lower.

Moore himself is a gun-owner who goes hunting and for a long time was a fully paid up member of the NRA. He only started attacking Heston because he objected to the policy of holding huge pro-gun rallies immediately after school-massacres in the towns where the killings had taken place. Some kid would shoot a bunch of students and teachers, and within a week Heston would be in that same town waving his gun around and making contraversial speeches. Of course he has every right to make those speeches, but the insensitivity of his timing is just mind-boggling.

It wasn't the guns that Moore objected to wrt heston, it was the fact that he showed such a blatant lack of compassion.

And just for the record, i get a good laugh every time I hear someone on this thread mention the president of the NRA and the word "defenceless" in the same sentence.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's actually a deliberate lie on the part of Moore. The NRA didn't "decide" to hold a rally after the shootings. They merely held a business meeting that they have to hold every year and had been scheduled for months in advance.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you mean the "from my cold, dead hands" remark, that was another lie by Moore. Heston said that many months after Columbine, in another state. Moore spliced the quotes together to make it look like he said it at the meeting.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since the "lack of compassion" Moore objected to is a product of his own dishonesty, I don't find that acceptable.
Truth about Bowling for Columbine

Moore is a liar. You fell for it. End of Story.

[ June 17, 2004, 15:45: Message edited by: Sinapus ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Sinapus,

Bush has been doing the same sorts things in his political commercials that you claim Moore is doing in Bowling for Columbine. Are you prepared to call Bush a liar as well?

Anyway here is an interesting rebuttal to your link.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

[ June 17, 2004, 17:32: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Guys lets keep it on a sensable level and all remember that no jubject is worth loosing our cool over. Remember if people on the web PYO, then you take the internet far too seriously. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Who's losing their cool?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting!

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Up to now none. But it is better to remind everybody to keep cool while they are listening, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

I got sick of the smooth talk in that link.

I think maybe I might see the film so I can form my own opinion.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Just the fellow who missed the Last episode of The Shield, it seemed to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

An interesting take on this debate about this movie. MSN Article

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I also watched a few interviews with him and I have to say that he has said its not an honest film nor should it be taken as one. However, it is a film and not politics. The politics only reside in the minds of the people who watch the film.

It should be noted that the movie is being released by I think MiraMax and the two brothers who own that company are registared Democrats and JFK (Kerry) supporters.

I think it best that this movie be taken with a huge grain of salt and if seen, not taken seriously. It is after all, and again Moore said this, his opinion on things.

Is it worth the $8.50 price tag? Well I hope not.

[ June 23, 2004, 08:45: Message edited by: LordOffender ]

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Then, while pointing the "Miramax" owners out, you might look into the alignment of the author of the piece as well. Since the piece DOES deal with political material, it tends to polarize a lot of powerful people...especially ones with their hands "under the table" or those who need to "suck up" in order to maintain their status.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

Hey Slynky, don’t dish the cred of Christopher Hitchens (the author) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

After all, he has earned it the hard way in his dayjob as a columnist for Vanity Fair
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, I think you probably misheard this part. He might have said it's not balanced. Moore has never hidden the fact that he has an agenda. But everybody has their own agenda, some are just more upfront about it then others. Of course there have been and will continue to be people saying the movie contains distortions or lies, but I would be very suprised to hear Moore himself say the film is anything less then honest.

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... I don't think it's the political bias he's criticising in people like George Bush- it's the business 'bias' he seems to display in some of his political dealings.

Politics should be politics, business should be business. Whenever either one visits the other, it leaves the door wide open for corruption to follow...

Re: Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ROFLMAO!