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Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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If you are playing with the AI set at a level about equal to the game settings then you are getting a more realistic result. You can write-off the rest of them (and some which may even be multiples of one player) since an AI which takes into account every setting posibility is unlikely to ever get created in this game. [ November 01, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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I'm not saying there is no room for improvement, and I would be more than happy to see the improvements, but there are other things to take into consideration as well in these discussions. [ November 01, 2003, 23:23: Message edited by: HJ ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
I will have a few questions about the AI, as you can see, I have not played much yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
1) Do we know what are the differences between the different levels? Is it only improved intelligence, or is there a resource/gold/research/magic gem (and so on) bonus the player does not have? Dominions AI may not rely as much on bonuses than the vast majority of AI. 2) For the beta testers mainly: is the AI more efficient in the middle and late game than in the early game? Perhaps the AI does not handle well early conflicts, or has trouble with early expansion (compared to an experienced player who tries to expand as fast as possible), or some other problem. Most AIs tend to have a lot of problems in the early game, and some can even be wiped out without much hassle in the beginning of the game. (And then we would have to wait for the full game to see what is the situation after, say, 100 turns) 3) Is there any chance players could alter/make their own AI files? That would depend obviously on how the AI behaviours are handled. There are games in which the original AI has been improved by players. (Space Empires IV for example) |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
I try to help:
1. The AI won't be smarter @ higher diff. levels, but it will have more design point to spend. I think thats all. Correct me if there is anything more. 2. I am not a beta-tester, but you can find lot of suggestions, that how to upgrade the AI. 3. That would be a good idea, however I don't think that any of us can script a really good AI. I guess Dominions AI is lot more complicated than the Space Empires IV. AI. [I am not sure..] However..who knows. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Just a little addition for 1. -> The AI should recruit heavy/elite units, and make complex/varied armies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, yes, yes. This is a more accurate list, than mine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Just a little addition for 1. -> The AI should recruit heavy/elite units, and make complex/varied armies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, yes, yes. This is a more accurate list, than mine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, I agree with these! JK please do something about the mentioned errors! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ November 02, 2003, 11:44: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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2.As paradoxal this is, i have seen indies protecting their commanders, but AI doesn't seem to protect it's commanders... 3.The forts are pretty expensive though... I haven't built a single fort in the demo... But AI doesn't seem to build them. 4.Yup. 5.Hey, i wander alone with my pretender too... Are you sure the pretender wasn't searching for magic sites? Or can the AI do that? 6.I noticed that too. 7.From multiple directions? Can you give any other examples? 8.The doesn't seem to be equiping commanders at all. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Ok, 4 things i saw today:
The AI can show some glimmer of tactical inteligence: Caelum apparently used "Attack Rearmost" command to attack my commanders... The AI can use assasins! The AI equips it's commanders: The aforementioned assasin had Enchanted Sword with him. The AI either holds it's armies in a province or then moves several armies in and out of the same province: Caelum had an army of about 80 units in one of his temple provinces for 4-5 turns. EDIT:I was using 6 Normal AI's, Aran and default settings(indy str 3). [ November 02, 2003, 13:52: Message edited by: Nerfix ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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2.As paradoxal this is, i have seen indies protecting their commanders, but AI doesn't seem to protect it's commanders... 3.The forts are pretty expensive though... I haven't built a single fort in the demo... But AI doesn't seem to build them. 4.Yup. 5.Hey, i wander alone with my pretender too... Are you sure the pretender wasn't searching for magic sites? Or can the AI do that? 6.I noticed that too. 7.From multiple directions? Can you give any other examples? 8.The doesn't seem to be equiping commanders at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Aristoteles. These are the {major?) weaknesses of the AI. As I've said in the prev. topic, if these things will be fixed/updated, we won't have problems with the AI. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
I'm not sure about this, but anyway:
9)The AI builds too much temples The AI could be in perpetual broke, explaining the cheap units and lack of forts, because a temple costs 200 gold and there could be better uses for the money. Not that AI shouldn't build temples, it just seems to build too much of them. [ November 02, 2003, 15:02: Message edited by: Nerfix ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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OTOH i haven't seen Mictlan building temples, but since Mictlan's temples don't spread Dominion they don't realy need them. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Maybe the 8. was a bit too early to mention, since the 40 turn limit demo is very short. Well maybe not, I can fully equip a commander/pretender until turn 40... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif [ November 02, 2003, 17:10: Message edited by: Particle ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
my question concerning the strategic AI is this: If it is indeed as weak as ppl are claiming it is, then what happened between Dominions 1 and dominions 2? Granted the AI in Dom1 wasn't the "end all, be all" of AI, but it was decent enough, hell, it can still give me a very big run for my money....so, what happened between the 2 games?
Something had to have happened during the final stages of development, where the beta testers couldn't have caught it. If they were saying that the ai was great, but now, completely new guys are stomping it, then something had to happen towards the end, right? It either has to be something to do with a late-stage development code change or data change somewhere....or, the ppl that are saying that they can wipe the virtual floor with the AI are either lying about it (NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IS LYING, THIS IS JUST A POSSIBLE OPTION!!!!!!!!)....or, they are setting the game up strange or something along those lines.... Now, if it is indeed something went wrong in the late stages of development, then possibly IW will be able to find it easy enough....and fix it of course.... |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
My own opinion is that the current games played with the demo are limited in time, so people tend to rush the AI with full strenght, supercombattants, you name it. But the AI isn't supposed to handle such situations well, hence easier victories. Multiplayer tactics are usually not liked by the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
However, there are other concerns that cannot be explained this way: like the problem with unguarded Pretenders for example. But it seems like this problem is more along the lines of "Pretender forgot to seek reinforcements". I am still waiting to see what will happen without the turn limit, if late game AI armies are featuring stronger units or not. If it is the latter, I will start to be worried. I would like a confirmation: is Dominions AI cheating? I would tend to believe it is not the case. If so, Dominions AI is really not that bad, and is one of the few AIs that does not rely on extra resources to provide a challenge. And I will be then in the side of "The AI isn't that bad, really". Finally, if you do want additional challenge, you may very well give the AI units/abilities/items and so on like someone mentioned in another thread dedicated to the AI. (If you are reading me, I am sorry, I forgot your name. You shall be called henceforth the Anonymous Poster, if you don't mind that is. *Silly me*) Edit: it was Nagot Gick Fel in this thread , about halfway down in the page. (At the moment of the writing that is) [ November 02, 2003, 19:47: Message edited by: Alneyan ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Maybe you've seen these parts of it: What should IW improve in Dominions II.? AI 65% (39) What do you think about the Dominions II. AI? Average 28% (17) Below average 20% (12) Poor 13% (8) To answer your question: Yes propably these 40 Users were lying about the AI. ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ... What happened with the AI? I remember that I've seen some infos on the first Doms2. Shrapnel site, that the AI will be very good. You were right in one thing, something propably happened, since the AI is far from good. There is a huge thread about this, so I won't argue about it. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Guys, there is no reason to get hostile over this. It is just a game. Go take a walk and cool off or something.
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Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
ok,
1. I am not IGNORANT...I may be a lot of things...but ignorance is not one of them.... 2. The purpose of my post was to say it was one of the 3 things.... 1. late stage development gone wrong 2. game setups getting messed up 3. ppl are lying about their games.... Now, it would have to be an incredible conspiracy, if I was to actually think that 35-45 ppl were lying about the same thing.... If you re-read my post...you will see that I spent more time asking about the possibility of the late stage development going wrong, than the other ones....and if I was going to accuse someone of lying, I would just go ahead and accuse them, i don't need subtle shadow attacks on ppl to get my point across.... Now, as far as the ai goes....I have noticed that the AI isn't great either...at least not in the demo....i have seen some large armies, but again, most are weaker units....only a few have had tougher troops... If i offended anyone because you think I said you were a lier....dear God, forgive me....that was not the point of the post....I can read the poll results...40 ppl saying that the ai needs work, well, that should raise a red flag. at any rate....I can't seem to post anything without getting busted for something from ppl.... have fun |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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How about a poll of players who are new to Dominions, about how much of a pushover the AI is for them? Then, how about a list of games where expert human players have a hard time against the AI? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif PvK |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc. What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress? I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as: Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5 Add a couple of other conditions. Just to make you think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Eventually it might result in something good. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc. What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress? I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as: Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5 Add a couple of other conditions. Just to make you think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Eventually it might result in something good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Finally an answer from a dev. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I would say, the AI should build castles in strategic locations, Example -> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> AI1 Prov AI1 Prov. AI1 Prov / Fortress AI1 Prov. AI1 Prov</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Reworking the AI to recruit heavy troops/summon deadly creatures and use them properly in the armies is up to you, I have no idea that how to script you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ November 02, 2003, 22:55: Message edited by: -Storm- ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Sammual |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc. What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress? I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as: Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5 Add a couple of other conditions. Just to make you think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Eventually it might result in something good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some responses to these questions: 1. In your list of factors you don't list population type and sites in the candidate province. I often fort to enable building more of an indep troop (especially amazon sacred cavalries, which are all useful; but also e.g. heavy cavalry for Caelum or C'tis, longbows/crossbows for any nation with weak missile troops) and/or protecting a location with high gem income or useful mages (either pop based (amazons again) or site based). A good first rule is that if you can't spend all your gold buying useful units in forts you already have, you need a new one; if your units are frequently starving because of insufficient supplies far from your forts, you need a new one in that area. (Which reminds me - supply production can be a factor in fort location too.) Rarely build a fort next to another fort (it is occasionally worth it for something that can be only found in that province, for example I will always fort a province that contains Mount Chaining in Dom I - in Dom II it isn't as powerful but is still pretty good if you are a blood using nation). 2. You don't need an army to build a fort. I usually don't use one. There is some risk in building a fort where you don't have an army, but I find it is often better to have the army doing something else - either taking more indeps (if they are available) or distracting the enemy so he doesn't have time to Call of the Winds every place I might be building a fort. Get some province defense though - it's annoying to have your fort sieged by Call of the Winds (and of course even more annoying to have the construction interrupted). 3. Fort selection value: (Adjustment * (resources + supplies)) + (gems x 10) + value of rare units recruitable here (this value should depend on the rarity and power of the unit; longbows and crossbows count a little, amazon cavalries and mages count more, something like grey knights would count a lot; mages with paths different from your nation are more valuable than mages that duplicate your nation's paths) + misc site value (enter-to-summons, cost reducers). I don't generally take income into account directly (although the first two terms value high population provinces more). "Adjustment" depends on the admin and gold cost of the castle; higher admin and cost should raise the value of the adjustment. Adjustment = 0 if there is an adjacent fort (this will reduce fort-next-to-fort except when gem income, rare unit value, or site value are high, which are the exceptions to the no-adjacent-fort rule). 4. Once you have built a fort, build a temple. Temples are vulnerable to enemy attack, but in a fort they are far less vulnerable. Then they spread your dominion, let you recruit priests and preach better. Mictlan might be an exception to this rule because their temples don't radiate - but blood sacrifices are more effective when performed in temples (IIRC), so they might want to build temples anyway so that they can sacrifice there. It's better to preach or sacrifice inside a fort because it protects the priest (high level priests especially are pretty expensive). Build a lab if you are likely to want to recruit any mages (if you are fortifying because of local troops or sites you probably want a lab for that anyway; some nations like Marignon always want to recruit mages) or summon/construct troops there to supplement your recruited troops (C'tis usually wants to do this; but Desert Tombs C'tis can do without the lab, if you don't mind shipping in your unpriests). |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
From what I have seen the beta testers have still been complaining about the AI. So this is not an issue of a late change that has crippled things, those testers STILL are getting their butts beat.
What I do see here is mostly veteran dom I players who know how to beat the game through practical experience from the first game. I also think some folks have judged it from limited playing time. Some people reported "THE AI IS THE WORST EVER!!!" within hours of the demo being released. Now tell me how you determine that from one game. I am sure there are ways we can make the game better, but to say such things with such little to back it up is silly. If you have complaints, feel free to post them here, but it is much more productive to give specific examples and email files to Illwinter. Now to the other stuff. Some people need to grow up on both sides. This is a game, not the WWF. Stop calling names or I will have to deal with that issue, and I don't want to have to do that. If you want to get results, do this the right way. We have no problem working with people if they can PROVE there is an issue and work with the developer to fix it. Just posting constantly that you think the AI sucks and your are 3l33t won't get you anywhere. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Just to point out to people what does and doesnt work, I was thinking of something simple like having the AI take all provinces connected to its castle, then move in a straight line away from home for 4 provinces, build a new castle and take all the provinces around it, rinse and repeat. Part of the problem I had is that it required the AI to keep a count. Your formula might work better because it involves the AI looking at the fresh map each time to make its judgements. Maybe mine can be used by the Easy AI? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Nerfix - I've met with problem #5. in my Last game. I have NO idea that what the heck the AI was doin' with his pretender, but he moved it from border province - border province all the time, back and forth. Another odd thing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
[ November 02, 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: MStavros ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Ive played many games with 1-6 impossible AIs, and I had no problem to kill at least 1 in the demo, easily. [40 turns limit] Richard, check out this list by Aristoteles: 1. The AI is massing weak troops 2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages 3. The AI wont build forts 4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better 5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc. 6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies. 7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province. 8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo. I think this is a very good list about the major AI problems. Just ignore the trollish Posts, and read the good ones only. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Ive played many games with 1-6 impossible AIs, and I had no problem to kill at least 1 in the demo, easily. [40 turns limit] Richard, check out this list by Aristoteles: 1. The AI is massing weak troops 2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages 3. The AI wont build forts 4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better 5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc. 6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies. 7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province. 8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo. I think this is a very good list about the major AI problems. Just ignore the trollish Posts, and read the good ones only. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, however I really don't see too many trollish Posts in these days. In fact we have very good suggestions in various threads. A fine example is this list about the AI weaknesses by Aristoteles. I am totally sure that he did played with the demo a lot, since he made these statements. I agree with all of them, and I've played hella lot with the demo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Also there are very good polls, like the master list or my #2. poll. Needless to say, that polls are very important. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Very good guys, just post your ideas and experiences about the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
This way the devs won't be pissed. Saying that the AI sucks won't help, we must tell them about the weak parts of it, like I did in my list. [ November 03, 2003, 13:33: Message edited by: Aristoteles ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Hm we all know that the AI won't build forts, or just very rarely. No wonder that the AI will recruit weak troops and militias than.
The AI on impossible level is expanding very fast, even with indep. str. +9. His home province with the fort is very far usually. The AI is recruiting heavy troops in his home province, but it won't make 1-2 stronger armies from them. It is making lot of wandering armies with a few heavy units in all of them. I think the these things should be tweaked first: - Enforce the AI with a script to build more forts in strategic locations. ((strat. loc.: province which is surrounded by other provinces of the AI, near mountain ranges, do not build a fort next to an other fort, etc..)) - Enforce the AI with a script to recruit more heavy troops/sacred troops&priests/summon more monsters. I think these are the most important things to fix first of all. Ther are many more, the list of Aristoteles is well written about them. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
OK maybe this will address some of the issues about AI. Or at least clarify some. If nothing else its a VERY different game for the demo.
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Poke_Eye.map http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Poke_Eye.tga OK the actual image is the same eye one. But the map file is very changed. The game is now called "a Poke in the Eye". Be sure to read the prophet announcements since they can be very interesting. And be sure to scout carefully even on indep settings of 2. Download those 2 files to the maps directory under your dominions2demo game. If you are interested in the programming code, just ask. If you think its crap, show me the one you did and I would be interested. [ November 03, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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I've played a few more games and in cases saw my major armies destroyed by the AIs. In one example, my favorite Pythium elite Emerald guards got totally wiped out by Jotun giants - I managed to got out alive only because Jotun got backstabbed by Man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I've played Dom 1 for more than a year and of course, I would usually beat *all* the AIs if I put effort. But I guess, I could probably only do it in 3 out of 4 games. But I also agree that the list of suggestions are quite constructive and useful for the program. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
EDIT: Sorry, silly double post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
[ November 03, 2003, 18:03: Message edited by: Alneyan ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
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Obviously, there is always room for improvement, but that's another topic, well covered in this thread. All I wanted to say was merely an encouragement for using an AI that isn't keen on using many advantages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Yeah, it is cool that the AI won't cheat, however it is not very effective right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
I had a game today with 5 impossible AIs, independent str was 6, and I've killed 2 AIs before turn 40. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Kris, copy and paste that list by Aristoteles, and try to fix those problematic points step by step. Oh and don't foget to reply here, that how is it going! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Damn, sorry for the double post.
[ November 03, 2003, 19:46: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
I think the more I fool around with the Demo the less concerned I am about the AI. I still think that making the AI better should be a high priority, but the doom and gloom aspect of it hasn't been apparent to me, at least in the types of games I've been playing (cramped maps, 6 or 7 indie strength). I've seen big armies with a solid HI core. I've seen seasonal spirits in the armies, I've seen maurading pretenders (though not always well defended...)
There is alot of good information and suggestions in this thread though, I hope that the discussion has helped the devs to look at some of the issues being brought up, and given them some thoughts on how to approach those issues. I would still like to know if there's any way to externalize AI parameters so that modders can try their hand at various things... |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Someone had mentioned that a special debug mode would be cool to inspect the AI. [Checking out the AI's actions in his turns.]
I like this idea too. However we have many good suggestion already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
It is nice to see you here Kris. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It is good to know that the devs are watching us from the skies. Errr... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Some other factors to consider when enhancing the AI. These are observations based on my preferred dom 1 playing style, one nation human, all of the rest impossible level AI, large map, and indep set to 9. On these settings, I usually win about 90% of the time.
-AI should take different decision trees depending on type of dominion/pretender that a nation has. Consider the following two configurations for Abysia: Maxed dominion, growth, and order with a fortified city, a zero point pretender, max heat scale, max drain scale, no extra magic for pretender. With this configuration, slow steady growth works really well. Build a temple in every territory, use defense heavily (minimum of 21, 41 for key territories, with later upgrades to 60). Armies are only for taking territory, not for defense. Your dominion is your main weapon, you take and hold territory, the spread of your dominion does the rest. Maxed dominion, max heat scale, max drain scale, Castle or some other decent defense city, lich pretender (ie immortal) with a four in every sphere minimum. With this pretender, magic summoning, immortality, and your dominion is the key. Build as many temples as possible. Buying units is unimportant, summon creatures that create new creatures (ie summer lions are nice, but fire elemental leaders are better, they make more fire elementals). Minimal defense in provinces (ie 21) to protect against sniping attacks, but armies are the serious defenders (because the only cost is leaders). Leaders that can create units should _never_ be sent into combat, only sit in castles and create more units. These two configurations illustrate how different good strategies can be, depending on the characteristics of a nation and the pretender selected. What I would really like is to have some way of specifying what pretender a computer player can use, or at least designing the ones in the "pool" of pretenders that are chosen from. Also, exposing the various decision formulas that the AI uses in files that can be modified would be great. It would help out illwinter by getting a bunch of people working on improved AI rules while letting illwinter focus on their great game engine, etc. Quote:
I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc. What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress? I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as: Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5 Add a couple of other conditions. Just to make you think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Eventually it might result in something good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some responses to these questions: 1. In your list of factors you don't list population type and sites in the candidate province. I often fort to enable building more of an indep troop (especially amazon sacred cavalries, which are all useful; but also e.g. heavy cavalry for Caelum or C'tis, longbows/crossbows for any nation with weak missile troops) and/or protecting a location with high gem income or useful mages (either pop based (amazons again) or site based). A good first rule is that if you can't spend all your gold buying useful units in forts you already have, you need a new one; if your units are frequently starving because of insufficient supplies far from your forts, you need a new one in that area. (Which reminds me - supply production can be a factor in fort location too.) Rarely build a fort next to another fort (it is occasionally worth it for something that can be only found in that province, for example I will always fort a province that contains Mount Chaining in Dom I - in Dom II it isn't as powerful but is still pretty good if you are a blood using nation). 2. You don't need an army to build a fort. I usually don't use one. There is some risk in building a fort where you don't have an army, but I find it is often better to have the army doing something else - either taking more indeps (if they are available) or distracting the enemy so he doesn't have time to Call of the Winds every place I might be building a fort. Get some province defense though - it's annoying to have your fort sieged by Call of the Winds (and of course even more annoying to have the construction interrupted). 3. Fort selection value: (Adjustment * (resources + supplies)) + (gems x 10) + value of rare units recruitable here (this value should depend on the rarity and power of the unit; longbows and crossbows count a little, amazon cavalries and mages count more, something like grey knights would count a lot; mages with paths different from your nation are more valuable than mages that duplicate your nation's paths) + misc site value (enter-to-summons, cost reducers). I don't generally take income into account directly (although the first two terms value high population provinces more). "Adjustment" depends on the admin and gold cost of the castle; higher admin and cost should raise the value of the adjustment. Adjustment = 0 if there is an adjacent fort (this will reduce fort-next-to-fort except when gem income, rare unit value, or site value are high, which are the exceptions to the no-adjacent-fort rule). 4. Once you have built a fort, build a temple. Temples are vulnerable to enemy attack, but in a fort they are far less vulnerable. Then they spread your dominion, let you recruit priests and preach better. Mictlan might be an exception to this rule because their temples don't radiate - but blood sacrifices are more effective when performed in temples (IIRC), so they might want to build temples anyway so that they can sacrifice there. It's better to preach or sacrifice inside a fort because it protects the priest (high level priests especially are pretty expensive). Build a lab if you are likely to want to recruit any mages (if you are fortifying because of local troops or sites you probably want a lab for that anyway; some nations like Marignon always want to recruit mages) or summon/construct troops there to supplement your recruited troops (C'tis usually wants to do this; but Desert Tombs C'tis can do without the lab, if you don't mind shipping in your unpriests). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
I think it is not as important now. We have a nice list about the AI weaknesses, so that feature isn't needed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Okay, here is the list once more, that what should be upgraded in the strategic AI:
1. The AI is massing weak troops 2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages 3. The AI wont build forts 4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better 5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc. 6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies. 7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province. 8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo. Feel free to add more, however I cannot think anything else right now. Nerfix has posted that the AI is building too many temples, I don't know that this is good or bad. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Hi, I am far from the experienced status, but I've seen these problematic points,-what you've mentioned on your list-, in my games with the demo.
I hope that this game developer -Illwinter- will improve these parts of the AI. I love the singleplayer at least as much as the multiplayer. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
OK I think we still have time for this. If I modify the Aran .map file (eye is overused already) to provide the AI some of these items do you think it would clairify things abit?
1. The AI is massing weak troops How about if each AI started the game with another army of hvy and elite units? Or even 2 more armys. 2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages If I actually BUILT the pretenders for each AI then I could assign bodyguards to it. I can also bodyguard priests and mages but only if the .map file gives them. 3. The AI wont build forts I could start the AI's with a couple of additional provinces and forts/temples/labs 4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better Hmmm I dont see where I could help this much. I could toss in a bunch of ally commands so that the AI's dont waste time and resources fighting each other. 5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc. Hmmm bodyguards is all I can think of. 6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies. I think this is a good tactic for an AI. If you cant make it capable of good decisions based on whats coming then moving around alot helps. 7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province. Not sure what can be done here unless a new map image (tga file) is created with more bottlenecks. 8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo. That would tend to be very late game but if I create the pretenders I CAN also give them magic items. The problem with so much pre-placement on such a map is that it wont have alot of replay value. The AIs would always start in the same provinces. Also, should I only do this for the AI's that cannot be selected for human play? Or should I do it for all the races. If its all, then the human player will also have his pretender pre-selected and extra troops at start. [ November 04, 2003, 15:51: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
While I appreciate your work Gandalf, I'm not sure that simply making map senarios is really what the folks are after here (though I expect you know that).
The fixes you propose (and you say this at the end of your post) are merely artificial boosts to try and make a specific map more difficult. I'm all for that, I love user created senarios that make life more difficult, but in the end, its not an improvement to the AI (unless there is the possibility for some *massive* scripting). So I just ask that while your work is not done in vain, the focus of this discussion remains on how to improve the in game AI, not on how to make a senerio that is challenging. Respecfully submitted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Quote:
Personally Im still not convinced that these are "problems" with the whole game. If they are based on settings then fixing some of these would cause problems when played with other settings (just a possibility). And if anything can be fixed with map mods then Id prefer that over a game rewrite since it would allow more variance in what can be accomplished with maps. Fixing these items might remove this level of AI play when some map makers might wish it. Respectfully submitted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Really |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Quote:
Personally Im still not convinced that these are "problems" with the whole game. If they are based on settings then fixing some of these would cause problems when played with other settings (just a possibility). And if anything can be fixed with map mods then Id prefer that over a game rewrite since it would allow more variance in what can be accomplished with maps. Fixing these items might remove this level of AI play when some map makers might wish it. Respectfully submitted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Really </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree that there are some (balance mostly) issues that may be negatively impacting the AI right now. However, I don't think that only modding is going to be the answer to 'fixing' the AI, unless the modders are able to somehow change the priorities of the AI in game. It is fine to make maps that should be more challenging, but it still doesn't strike at some of the underlieing (supposed) weaknesses. Starting the AI with more HI is fine, but if they don' continue to build more HI the advantage is soon lost (well depending on how many HI you start them with). Taking LI away from them completely (assuming you can do that by modding the units files) is another work around, but its also not really satisfactory in making the AI 'smarter'. Alot of the discussion in this thread has tried to uncover the mechanisms by which the AI is making its army build selections, already it has been uncovered that perhaps the AI isn't building enough forts to allow for better troop recruitment, maybe the AI doesn't understand how to save money to build what it needs to, I don't know, but issues like that can only be 'patched' by scripting maps, they need to be fixed by some tweeking of the inputs to the AI, that's what I'm hoping is possible, as I don't want a complete rewrite, just the ability to tweek existing inputs. |
Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
Gandalf, you are avery helpful person indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
However this won't help too much. It will offer more challenge, but the AI itself won't be changed, thus the problems won't be solved this way. Still I love your map, especially with indy str 9. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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