Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

The optional coup de grace rule for AD&D is just for conveniences sake in fights - do you really want to have to roll 40 attack rounds against an immobile opponent when the outcome is inevitable ?

Use of it is tempered by GM common sense though. Having some level 1 mage melee a tarrasque to death with a scrollcase in one combat round because he paralyzed it is so inherently ludicrous that only an idiot GM would go with that outcome.

It's like saying a guy with a hammer wins a fight with mount everest because it can't fight back.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you! Now could you also check the size of your army8.trs and res.trs files in bytes. They are located in dominions2.app/Contents/Resources.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

Velk,
I agree that the optional coup de grace rules in AD&D should be tempered with common sense. Of course, the mage might just have a dagger with him...that's a common purchase for L1 magi. And the AD&D golems required magical weapons to hit, which of course I addressed in a prior post. You are correct...the golem would not be slain without magical weapons even if it were paralyzed. Of course, let's remember that NT Jedi's example was that of a red dragon.

The explanations offered by Pillin and Aikamun make sense to me. Because let's face it...thousands of folks in the province. Even if they run away in fear a few times, they can always come back the next day and help some more. After all, it is a whole month.

Norfleet,
Most units have better weapons than forks or herrings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And I would count all the units able to reach the creature in question after it becomes helpless with no defenders. Not just those still around at turn 50.

NT Jedi,
Even folks who take your side in this discussion of what should happen to paralyzed supercombatants...some of these folks side with me on the red dragon issue. They could gouge out its eyes or slit its throat. Keep in mind that level of experience (unless magical items are present) doesn't have anything to do with the damage done per attack in AD&D, though it may increase the number of attacks you receive per combat round.
The devs have decided to kill these paralyzed creatures, and I agree with them. Paralyze should be less effective now, which I'm sure will make you a bit happier with regard to the survivability of your supercombatants.

Norfleet,
I don't think the present rules truly account for "helplessness." Protection still remains, in my opinion, too effective a counter to blows once one is paralyzed. And I think you know how effective protection is in this game. If your protection is significantly greater than your opponents' damage plus strength, you will rarely take damage. While that makes sense before you are paralyzed, I think it makes less sense, except possibly in the case of immobile hunks of rock, once you are helpless with no defenders. Defense skill of zero isn't really sufficient to model helplessness. Because the helpless creature's armor can be removed...it can't prevent that. The magical accourtrements can likewise be removed...it can't prevent that. And small chinks in spell protection could also be removed or dispelled by skilled magi. (One thing we don't have in Dom 2 that I think would be neat is a form of "dispel magic.")
You have a point with regard to the protection spells which damage attackers. And my answer that they are countered may not prove satisfactory to you because there is no such counter in the game mechanics. Of course...what is possible once one is helpless with regard to enchantments should be different than what is possible if one is hale and moving about the battlefield.

Graeme Dice,
Paralyzation under this system does not become as good as soul slay. The autokill does not go into effect until the unit is helpless and without any defenders whatsoever. Soul slay can slay units even if defenders are present on the battlefield. For paralysis to be as effective, the side using the paralysis must win the battle. Soul slay will kill units even without winning the battle. I view that difference as significant.

The unit itself counts. You specified a spellcasting sphinx. My scenario would not say that a spellcasting sphinx is helpless unless it were paralyzed or otherwise rendered helpless. If they don't move from their fortresses, as in patch 2.08, then choosing a fortress with defenders would render the sphinx always non-helpless. Same goes for the head. However, if a soulless has a month to rip apart a helpless sphinx...well, that soulless must have undead leadership or it wouldn't be on the battlefield at all. So the soulless and its undead leader slowly manage to chip away at the head of the sphinx, not sleeping because they are undead and require no sleep, over a period of an entire Calendar month, thereby expelling the vile spirit that inhabited the sphinx into the void.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

Now your just beeing stubborn NTJedi, do you really think there are noone in a whole province that can kill your splendid... um statue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Your protection spells wont Last all that long after the battle and then its just a simple matter of putting you off a cliff or something.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">army8.trs 292 KB
res.trs 76.KB

I also redownloaded the patch to no affect.

[ February 17, 2004, 15:58: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

I know the answer to this question is always "When it's done", http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif but I am curious if there is any estimated timeline on the Utgard fix, and whether it will wait for patch 2.09 or be released in a "mini-patch" (2.08a, for example) just to address that one issue.

Thanks for reading and for all the GREAT changes and improvements in 2.08; I know you Illwinter folk are as busy as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again another bizarre response.

First they werent spells... they were items... so yeah it would Last. Second the 'cause fear' was from death magic and the helm means very few citizen/farmers would be brave enough to attack/move the paralyzed titan especialy since they don't know how long before he will wake up!!

Pillin the citizen munchkins are farmers and citizens not fighters.
AND what about the provinces which have ZERO population... that BLOWS your theory dead too.


==========
SurvivalistMerc I was always under the impression Ancient Red Dragons could only be harmed by magical weapons... so a knife or sword in the eye would not cause any harm.
The devs have decided to kill these paralyzed creatures because they needed a way to stop combat from being stuck in a forever loop. The solution used: Auto-kill all units after X amount of turns is wrong. The unit should be allowed to wake-up and flee... not die .

[ February 17, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

NT Jedi,

Under the original rules through I believe the first AD&D revision, magical weapons were not necessary to harm Ancient red dragons.

After Gygax left TSR, the company has continually re-published numerous rules for AD&D. And I have stopped buying the newer publications. Your original point was that you played numerous TBS, RPG, and other games and you were not aware of any other situation in which paralyzation meant death. I have shown you one. I do not speak of any of the "new" rules more than a few years after Gygax's departure because I consider most of those to just be rewriting the rules for purposes of selling additional rulebooks and making more money by doing so...the game was perfectly good in its original rendition judging from its popularity at the time. (I don't intend to get into a discussion of what Version of AD&D you prefer...all of the old AD&D players will confirm that you didn't need magical weapons to kill the original dragons.)

My mechanism of death does not rely on farmers. And even under current rules, if you can defeat or cause the retreat of all opponents by turn 50 then you will win the battle.

I like the fact that paralyze works to effectively counter supercombatants. Something has to. If you take away paralyze, much of the game will come down to duels of supercombatants.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

The problem is specifically that :
the game auto-kills units after X amount of turns during combat. That is wrong.

Paralyzation is just an effect which causes this to happen. Its one of the variables involved.

Any one of the three variables can be changed to fix this design flaw.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

Items can be removed, spells wear off, and fear is not nearly as powerful as NT Jedi seems to think it is; it takes even militia quite a while to figure out that poking at the Doom Horror isn't the best idea, and Doom Horrors are a lot more fearful than a mere +2.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

NT Jedi,

I actually agree with you that it is unsatisfying to have creatures autokilled after 50 turns. I've had that happen to perfectly functional units that were still attacking at the end of turn 50, still very much alive and kicking. Zap! You're dead! You didn't finish the combat in time!

I still think that the lack of instant protection reductions for "defenseless," paralyzed creatures with no allies on the field of battle is a design flaw. And I'm not sure that you necessarily disagree with me, though you do seem to object to the death of paralyzed SCs.

So that we're actually addressing the other person's concerns in the situation, let me ask you this: What do you think the most detrimental yet fair thing would be that would most likely cause the death of a "defenseless" paralyzed supercombatant? We are talking about a supercombatant...let's leave aside what kind for the moment...which is paralyzed and has no allies on the field of battle either on the ground or associated with any defensive structure.

I can see removal of items that provide defensive shields, including charcoal shields. Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Let us assume for the moment that the devs would agree not to autokill attackers on the field of battle after turn 50.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not quite correct. Spells like Fire Shield or Astral Shield may well prevent what you propose. Your argument, while having merit, also has holes. You may want to consider some other rationale to use versus NTJedi ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">TRY removing a ring of regeneration from a paralyzed golem which has a clenched fist. Is not going to happen especially when the units lack the ability to do the necessary damage.

Second... militia are among the weakest military units... but they are still military. Citizens and farmers have a fraction of the military training and bravery to approach a size_6 Titan. Why should a farmer risk his life when he doesn't even know when the paralyzation is going to wear off. Also the scenario doesn't work for provinces with ZERO population.

[ February 17, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes this needs to be fixed.



<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It all depends on the supercombatant... even a paralyzed supercombatant should be allowed to live if the attackers were all unable to do any permanent damage. Some units are immune to all elemental attacks, some don't have souls, some lack any blood and some are purely moving&attacking because of magic.

Example: Using the new AD&D rules... an Ancient Red Dragon wouldn't be dying from level_2 fighters with regular weapons.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The act of removing the item cannot always be done. The clenched fist of a golem wearing a ring of regeneration. A fire shield held against the chest of the paralyzed titan. These cannot be removed without some form of attack.
And what about scenarios where after the battle which has paralyzation wear off before the fire_shield & astral_shield.

[ February 17, 2004, 20:02: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

NT Jedi,

In Dominions, there are no creatures which require magical weapons to hit them. You may argue that high protection is functionally equivalent to this. But there are some very mundane units with protection of 24 or so (ulm black knights).

Using the open d6 system, there isn't a single situation in which you can categorically say that "x unit" is incapable of doing permanent damage to "y unit."

You say that it depends on the supercombatant. Ok. Care to list a few SCs and describe to me what you feel would be the most detrimental yet fair disadvantages that they should face in the situation in which the SC is paralyzed AND there are no unparalyzed allies to protect the SC such that it is utterly "helpless?" I notice that other than saying that it depends on the SC you really didn't give an answer to this question.

I have always assumed that paralyzed units fall down. Why is it that you don't think a titan's shield could be taken without some form of attack? Why do you think that fists remain clenched when there is no muscle activity due to paralysis? (I concede you might have a point with regard to magically animated creatures...they would likely retain their posture prior to paralysis unless they were knocked down or something.) Of course, if your golem held a weapon, then it wouldn't have its fist clenched so as to keep and protect the regen ring, would it?

I suppose I have always assumed that a mage on the only side with non-helpless troops would assure that the astral and fire shields were removed prior to the expiration of paralyzation.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

...not to mention that a paralyzed Titan should die of asphyxiation rather rapidly, as would most living units. That would make Illithids and even Dispossessed Spirits rather nasty, however.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think they should have _any_ disadvantages beyond those already obtained by being unable to move. They can't avoid being hit, and are likely to have their armour pierced. If they have significant natural protection then they should still experience the benefits of it. Their magic items should continue to function as normal, etc. The opposing army should be forced to attempt to kill them through whatever means they have available until the paralyzed unit regains mental control and continues to attack or flee as the situation warrants.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This assumes that you have a mage with the capability to do such a thing on the battlefield.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Paralysis is defined by the spell to be mentally overloading the victim, not shutting down all bodily functions.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why is the sphinx more helpless when paralyzed than when not paralyzed? It's still just a hunk of rock. If the military units can't damage it during a battle while it's not responding, then it will wake up soon enough and start spellcasting again.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They don't have a month though. They have only as long as it takes for the statue to wake up. And no matter how much it pounds away at a piece of rock, a soulless isn't going to damage it more than superficially with its fists. Especially when it's a piece of rock that automatically rebuilds itself within a months time.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems correct. These files were in the full dominions.app not the patch one right?

Has anyone else tried the OS X patch and if so what was your result?

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

I'm surprised that nobody has a fix-mod for the Utgard theme yet. I have been kinda out of contact since I am currently on vacation, but I'll fixe the Seithkona and put it in the bugfix mod later today, and post to indicate when it is done.

-Cherry

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

Graeme Dice has perfectly answered questions during my lunch hour.

I will answer a few questions too:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The key is that there are so many different types of creatures. Not all creatures would respond the same when paralyzed. How does a sphinx fall down?? How does a Fire Elemental fall down?? Lets say the titan does fall down and fell down lying on top of his fire_shield or ring thus still equipped giving the abilities... how does this artifact get removed when the units are all human size?
It would take serious time moving that Titan and by then the paralyzation could have easily worn off if there's no units to continue his paralyzation. And how could your suggestion be accomplished when the province population is Zero and only 3 spirits remained on the battlefield??


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you answered this yourself... I could provide other examples if you wish.

======================
Graeme Dice answered all other questions perfectly. All I can say is Ditto.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What should those of us who are playing MP games that have a Jotun Utgard player do (not necessarily a question for Cherry)? We can't use a quickfix mod....

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pretty much the same as those of us doing AARs: sticking with 2.06 until 2.09 is released.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems correct. These files were in the full dominions.app not the patch one right?
[/quote]

I'm not sure I follow what your asking. I copied the files from the patch to the full dominions.app. I also tried the same files from the PPC linux patch with the same result. If I get time I'll try reinstalling.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

When the battle ends the battlefield is cleaned by an army of garden gnomes. They run around zapping anything thats not supposed to be there with they're wands of disintegration (ignores mr).


And btw, since I havent had any military training (ok I've had, but lets ignore that for now) then I cant be brave?

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the crucial thing you have missed here is that the unit in question isn't going to be paraylzed for a month, they are going to recover a few minutes afterwards.

Unless, of course, you assume that any given province ( including defense 0, population 0 ones ) automatically contains a number of astral magic using farmers who will proceed to cast paralyze ( and never get resisted ) every 30 rounds for the rest of the month 8)

Anyway, it's veering off topic somewhat. Does anyone think that the following is unreasonable :
If both sides are fully routed AND both sides cannot move AND they are not immobile AND the turn limit expires they should both automatically rout rather than automatically die.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

I'm not sure what what is meant by:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In any event, considerations of "realism" (whatever that means in a fantasy game) take a back seat to more pragmatic concerns, like ensuring that the hosting terminates.

The auto-die code is in there to ensure that no combat can get "stuck" for reasons involving Paralyze or other reasons not foreseen, and I for one don't particularly care whether or not it can be rationalized in game terms.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can't change the Utgard theme. You can fix the Seithkona, but you can't fix the fact that they have a smouldercone AFAIK since you are unable to modify a theme, only the base nation.

I have a mod with fixed Seithkona, but either I am to dense to figure it out, or it isn't possible to just modify the Utgard theme.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

I see. I was going to fix Seithkona, but I guess the problems run deeper... I'll wait around a bit. Hard for me to access a computer anyway.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But why auto-die and not auto-rout? Why not just end the battle with both sides having "fled the field" so to speak? That's how every other TBS I can think of where this situation is possible handles it.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can't change the Utgard theme. You can fix the Seithkona, but you can't fix the fact that they have a smouldercone AFAIK since you are unable to modify a theme, only the base nation.

I have a mod with fixed Seithkona, but either I am to dense to figure it out, or it isn't possible to just modify the Utgard theme. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure ? I mean that the problem seems to lie with the Utgard Seithkona UNIT, that should have an ID and be moddable independently of whether it's used in a theme or not .
Or does the bug lies elsewhere - ie the unit is fine but stg screw it when it's used by Utgard Jotunheim ?

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That sounds like the way to go. Could you do a
ls -l dominions2.app/Contents/Resources and a
ls -l dominions2.app/Contents/MacOS
and mail me the result to johan at illwinter.com.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

On a side note: was something done to the archery AI? Since the 2.08 patch the archers "let go" of their assigned targets as soon as they rout to attack enemy archers and/or rearmost enemy.

For the life of me I think they didn't use to do that with such persistance prior 2.08.
On the other hand, maybe I did not pay that much attention to archers/xbowmen prior to the Last few games.

Anyway, if this is new, I really, really like it. If it's been there - and I was just blind, well, I'm sory to steal your time, guys.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

Graeme Dice,

Any unit capable of fighting back in any way currently, or which currently has defenders of any kind isn't "helpless." If the sphinx has astral magic and the knowledge to cast soul slay or paralyze itself...that doesn't even as a practical matter look helpless to me. Any unit that can't fight back either magically or physically is helpless if it has no one else to fight for it. Or does that not make sense?

If there is an astral mage capable of casting paralyze, they probably do have a month. How many additional castings of paralysis can occur during the 30-40 turns that it will take the sphinx to become unparalyzed? And how soon will the sphinx acquire such an affliction, like feebleminded, as to effectively be unable to fight back in any way? In almost all of these paralyzed victim situations, the astral mage remains on the battlefield.

I'm not sure if you understand what paralysis of the voluntary muscles will do. It will not keep a fist clenched unless we're discussing something that is principally animated by magic like a golem. So I do think I answered the question myself...but not in the way you'd like me to have answered it. Keeping a fist clenched requires muscle activity...not only that but it requires continued signals sent by the motor cortex and also by the spinal cord. Without these impulses, the hand relaxes and opens. I will concede that a hunk of rock or a golem wouldn't likely react similarly to paralysis.

NT Jedi,

You think that a charcoal shield would still be effective and count as equipped if a unit falls down on top of it and it faces the ground? Sure...he's touching the shield...but it doesn't appear to be equipped to me.

I'll concede that fire elementals and sphinxes probably don't "fall down." I should have been a bit more specific...voluntary muscle contraction, if such existed before, in the legs of the paralyzed creature ceases. This will cause most creatures to fall down.

Velk,

The astral mage is usually still around. Therefore, I do not need to make your assumption. Paralyze can be cast a large number of times during the 40 turns or so that a creature will be paralyzed. And odds are that it won't be resisted before it extends the paralysis another 40 turns or so....

In your hypothetical, I think the attacker should rout and go to an adjacent friendly province if such exists whereas the defender should stay put.
Both sides routed
Both sides can't move
Both sides not immobile
Turn limit expires

Zapmeister,

I think Velk is referring to situations in which both armies rout yet there are paralyzed units still on the field of battle. These units are unable to rout with the remainder of their armies when turn 50 happens.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Weapons do not fall off from paralyzation and neither do shields... thus the items are equipped during and after paralyzation. So even an immobile unit which has fell would still have the shield or weapon equipped. Otherwise an entire battle round would have been placed into the game for units recovering from paralyzation as they would need to equip their items again.
Why wouldn't the shield still be equipped... it's still wrapped on his arm and the unit is just lying on the ground??
If you've ever seen or used a shield before you'd see that simply falling down would not unequip most shields.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

What makes you think the paralyzation would cause units to fall down?? There are several different types of paralzation. A unit which has been magically paralyzed may become as stiff as a board. What happens to the skelleton commanders they don't use any muscles to begin with... why should they fall?? In many many games the effects of paralyzation does not cause the units to fall down. And with this game there are no settings or views or signs specifically indicating 'fallen unit'.

[ February 18, 2004, 15:05: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

NT Jedi,

Weapons and shields don't have to "fall off" to cease providing some of their benefits. Surely a shield is not benefitting you as a shield if you are lying on top of it. And if it's not benefitting you as a shield, perhaps its magical powers are also not operating.

Rather than requiring an entire battle round to re-equip items, why not just assume that this time is included and factored into the "duration" of the paralysis?

I have both seen and used shields. And there is not a single one that I think would be of much use to someone who has fallen down and can't move a muscle.

There is nothing in the paralyzation spell description to indicate that you "stiffen up" when paralyzed. In fact, such a "stiffened up" condition would not typically be called paralysis...at least not in English.

Why would you fall down? Because muscular activity...in the voluntary muscles...is required to keep standing.

Surely, given the nature of graphics in Dom 2, you will not conclude that the absence of graphics in which one is lying down is not dispositive on the issue. Graphics aren't exactly a forte of this game, and I don't even want to think about the time the poor devs would have to spend to create lying down graphics for all units. Surely you will concede that most non-magical units do sleep periodically, even though there are no lying down figurines on the overland map.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you've missed NT's point. The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer. So a commander that has literally fallen upon his shield would still get the magical benefits of the shield (fire auras, etc.)

You assert that unless the owner of the shield is awake and able to hold the shield properly that the shield's magics won't work. There is no basis for such an argument. The magics are "always-on". Whether permanently after forging, or turned on by some form of command, they'd remain "on" thereafter. Otherwise, by your logic, the wearer would have to keep concentrating on the shield's magic for it to work, which would make fighting or casting sort of impossible.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

Petrification is an AoE paralyzation, isn't it? Statues stand even without muscular activity...

Anyway, this discussion has gotten little out of hand. Maybe you could move it away from the patch thread? It is interesting to follow, though, and atleast I would be interested to see how it ends (if it ends). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you've missed NT's point. The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer. So a commander that has literally fallen upon his shield would still get the magical benefits of the shield (fire auras, etc.)

You assert that unless the owner of the shield is awake and able to hold the shield properly that the shield's magics won't work. There is no basis for such an argument. The magics are "always-on". Whether permanently after forging, or turned on by some form of command, they'd remain "on" thereafter. Otherwise, by your logic, the wearer would have to keep concentrating on the shield's magic for it to work, which would make fighting or casting sort of impossible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, wow, this entire debate has moved to the realm of pointlessness... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Both sides have valid rationalizations for their take on this situation, neither will win any converts from the other, so drop it, move back to game mechanics and effects on gameplay and drop all the useless rationalizations, they are as pointless as they are meaningless in the context of tactical combat as modeled in Dom2.

It may be entertaining to continue your debate, but don't delude yourselves that it should have any bearing on changes (or lack thereof) in the tac model. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does this apply also to shields with description saying explicitly that those effects appear when someone strikes the shield, for example charcoal shield? A bit many variables you guys are having here if you all insist on putting all imaginable real-life (physics, physique, etc) and fantasy (magic) mechanics into play. Probably hard to agree on anything...

Oh, my mental image of paralyzation spell varies somewhere between old D&D 'hold' spell and epileptic seizure. So it would be possible to get all kinds of nice effects (like spell victims randomly hurting themselves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). Um, it's a game, so if something bugs, saying that really it is like this might not be the best option to sway anyone...

Have to second Endoperez, on both points. Namely putting conversation perhaps to another thread and that it'd be interesting to see how it ends.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The way this game works... if the magic shield is equipped the unit gets the benefits from the shield. AS this game works paralyzed units DO NOT lose the powers of equipped items. That's the way this game works.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because a unit unequipped is not completely helpless or paralyzed... OBVIOUSLY a Titan is still very deadly even if he is unequipped.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The game has already included where paralyzed units are more vunerable so that's in the game. However these are magical shields... and paralyzed units do not lose their magical enchantments in this game when paralyzed... thus the items are still equipped.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again as I said early there are many different types of paralyzation and there is nothing in the description of paralyzation which indicates units fall down either.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AGAIN... NOT all units can fall down... fire elementals... sphinx... etc... THUS don't go believing it always happens. And as I said before there are DIFFERENT types of paralyzation. Again there have been many other games where paralyzation does NOT cause units to fall down.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doesn't have to be graphics added into the battlefield.

[ February 18, 2004, 17:37: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

SurvivalistMerc... you seem to be gravely mistaken in believing that paralyzation will automatically cause units to fall and become unconcious... that's incorrect.

Paralyzation has different types... take a look at description#2 from dictionary.com which lists one example: Paralyzed by Fear

Perhaps those spirits are causing this type of Paralyzation.

[ February 18, 2004, 17:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Utgard theme in 2.08 apparently has a Smouldercone (Abysia site) instead of whatever it should have. Since you cannot mod themes, or sites, whatever you do, Utgard will get a Smouldercone. You can mod the Seithkona, I suppose, but unless you mod the Lava Warrior and Warlock, Utgard will have Abysian units; and if you do, Abysia will lose them. Or anyway, that's how I understand things (I haven't tried to do any modding).

BTW, for the authors of the (IMHO) useless AD&D/rationalization sub-thread: you're getting nowhere, and basically polluting an otherwise useful thread about the patch... if you could take this to another thread, or to PM, that would be nice...

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why is the sphinx vulnerable to instant destruction when its mind is shut down, but not whne its mind is active? The physical structure doesn't suddenly fall apart, so there's no reason for it for it to be more susceptible to being hit or killed.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once he becomes unconscious he has one casting every 4 turns. With a les than 5% success rate on paralyze with a decent MR on the Sphinx, it's not that likely that he will stay paralyzed for the whole month.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why should it matter if the sphinx can effectively cast spells? It still is difficult to physically destroy even without a mind.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have tested the Mod and the Seithkona work, but in my 2.08. Utgard has a starting site Smouldercone instead of the Well of Urd. Now while Ironic, it also makes the Theme lose their Norna and Seithkona are regulated to a Unit not a Commander. The Theme also gets Vaetti (for whatever reason) and Demonbred, Warlock and Apprentices, Lava Warriors.

So unless there is a way to modify the beginning site given to a theme (not nation) with the current tools, then I can't fix it as of right now. Which if someone says you can, I'd love to fix it, as at current there are a few games that are in limbo because of it.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You cannot mod a game in progress, right? So I don't think there's much you can do anyway for games that have already started - all you can do is not move them to 2.08. I'd suggest backing the game up before you host it into 2.08, too.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

It wasn't hosted in 2.08, it wasn't hosted at all actually. It was hosted in 2.06 before the patch was even applied to my system. So the only issue would be if somehow something snuck in there that is 2.08 and is messing with everything.

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then I'd say you should make sure you back up everything before you host, then try to host with a 2.06 executable. If it crashes, that means someone submitted a turn with 2.08... and you can either ask them to resubmit with 2.06, and decide that the game will go on as 2.06, or make the change to 2.08. Unless you have an Utgard player, though, it should not matter much...

Re: patch 2.08 is out
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It won't even let you load it in 2.06 is the problem so that's what I'm trying to get it back to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes and we do have an Utgard player or it wouldn't be as much an issue. Thanks for your help though Philippe.