Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Any mixture of flying troops,unbreakable troops and cheap Archers works well.You dont need many troops.
Some time ago I was up against Caelum ,using the False Horror strat,quite early in the game.
I played Abysia.
I had 2 Fiends of Darkness,an Apprentice and some indie archers(set on fire archers) in every important province.
he wasnt able to raid most of my lands because of this ,but I was able to raid his, using Horde from Hell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Thats why I won the war.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Hordes from Hell requires 30 Blood Slaves.
Some could trapeze costs 6-9 air gems.

And Imps are worst than False Horrors.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Compared to other summons False Horrors is very powerful for it's cost.

The game would actually be richer without it. I don't say that about a lot of spells/items.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

There're already many issues on False Horror.
What we had to say we've already told.
Now it's up to IW if to make some change or not, but I hope the massive games that see Caelum excluded as choice is a clear signal of what this nation is strong, and how false horror, especially with quickness, is strong.

At least Pythium Theurgs can't trapeze by default, and only the Arch theurg can that are capitol only and costs a lot.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Alas, the fact that it's been said doesn't appear to deter you and your friends from incessantly saying it again and again every chance you get (and if you don't get a chance, you make up a new one). It's gotten very old and tiresome. Give it a rest. Please.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Simply because I fight for my causes.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

There's a not-fine line between fighting and making a nuisance of yourself.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

its funny, i'm playing Caelum in two games right now, and at every point I'm thinking of ways to counter what I'm doing in the games. Caelum+FalseHorror is in fact balanced with the rest of the game (which is why its still around). But its been balanced in a rock/paper/scissors way, which is why everyone's arguments are true. Caelum is overpowered against ALOT of things, but its defeated by enough things to make it a healthy part of Dom2.

Without things like the FH spam, you wouldn't have any reason to change your play style and respond to a unique threat. The one strategy-fits-all isn't the healthiest way to play long term, and that might explain the frustration of so many players (and its also the downfall of the FH spam, since it too tries to meet every battle the same way)

And I'm surprised alot of players will gladly spend tons of research and gems to equip and raise magic paths in a SC to further an offensive strategy. But some players aren't interested in putting the same game effort into their defense against a clear and well known threat.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Lex is essentially repeating what Gandalf said a while back. Unfortunately, no one seems to have been listening to Gandalf. Which is a shame, since Gandalf knows what he's talking about. Certainly more so than those whose minds are closed to viewpoints other than that of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Giggle. Whatever. Perhaps next game I'll get Caelum. I'm sure I will argue ( disingenuously ) that it is balanced at that time as well.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

What I want to know is what Hen and compadres propose to give Caelum as compensation if False Horror is nerfed (as opposed to the bug where priests don't cast sermon of courage with them).

After all - I see Caelum in at least half the games I play. It isn't the winner most of the time, and yet they want to nerf one of the few things Caelum does have going for it.

After all - Caelum possibly has the worst PD in the game, because it flies right up, fights one turn, and flies away. Even Mictlan or Man's PD at least slows down invaders long enough for mages to cast spells.

Its troops are generally either incredibly flimsy, or extremely resource intensive, slow, and non-flying. National magic isn't particularly flexible, albeit it certainly isn't bad. Oh, and all its troops (except Wingless) eat a boatload of supplies, meaning that any army of decent size is often starving.

So - take away False Horror, thus hurting Caelum, which is already _easily_ countered by certain nations / themes. What does Caelum get to make up for it?

Then again, one of the main whiners about False Horror (and Caelum) also keeps insisting that Abysia is underpowered. *snigger*

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

At this time, I'd like to firmly declare myself in the camp of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness. We're a focused bunch with very particular dislikes.

Thank you. That is all.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

How about we give them national armies that can skip provinces and strike rear areas? No that would be insane. Just imagine the carnage that could cause!

No, no wait I got it. How about we make their best mage recruitable not only in the capital but anywhere they have a castle? No that would be crazy.

No, no, wait. How about making their top mage have one 3 level path one 2 level path a random and yet cost only 180? No, that's crazy. No no, wait let's make it fly as well!

Caelum is excellent even if they did not have false horrors. Just not quite so "dear god Caelum again" excellent.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I am *not* arguing for or against false horror, or Caelum or anything along those lines...but Caelum has more going for it than False horror.

They still have good raiders, mobility and good mages. Probably other things, too, that I am not experienced enough to be aware of...but Caelums success does not hinge solely on False Horror, imo.

- Kel

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

*yawn* If they were so excellent, why don't they win more games? They have one strength really: mages. The armies being able to skip provinces and attack rear areas wouldn't do a thing for them without the mages, because the flying troops are either very weak, or very very expensive resource-wise, and they tend to _starve_ when not close to home.

In my opinion, the only reason Caelum gets Banned is because people get frustrated playing against them. Hell - I do too, sometimes. Ditto for 'mad castling': "It isn't fun to play against!" My heart bleeds for these people, really it does. Oops, never mind - that's just some wine I spilled on my shirt.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Well that explains it... you are clearly drunk! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

In vino, veritas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Well Stormbinder / Truper and a lot of other very experienced players say too that false horrors are at least a bit overpowered while you and Caine seem to be the only ones still claiming it is okay .

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

First, who's "a lot"? Second, who's definition of "very experienced", for I assure you that your definition and mine are likely to be dramatically different. Finally, you completely ignored the text I wrote which you (for some unknown reason) bothered to quote. Why quote text if what you're going to write utterly disregards that to which you are ostensibly referring to? To make it abundantly clear what I'm speaking about, lest it elude you, how can you claim that only I and Cainehill hold a certain viewpoint when the text you quoted very clearly mentions that there are others (in this example, Gandalf)?

Oh, and one more thing: just because some people are VERY vocal in their whining about Caelum, False Horror, Abysia, or whatever other aspect(s) of the game they have trouble with due to their preconceptions and/or inflexible playstyle doesn't make them a majority. Or even significant. It just makes them a pain in the ***. If you choose to accord such folks more importance than they merit, that's your prerogative, but don't expect others to agree with you ... no matter how vocal you are.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I just wanted to give you counterexamples .
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .

Truper made some very good points too .


Your own "anti-moraleloss fix" sounds promising too .

The combination of fear aura , 16att/def and etheral makes a false horror very tough .
Normal troops he roots and cheap high morale troops like skeletons , manikins etc. have all 0 prot + low mr so the false horror defeats them as well .
Even demons like FoD and Devils have not very high protection and are not easy to get in big enough numbers quick . Behemoths won't hit false horrors a lot because of their etheralness too .

Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it .
If you can give me enough examples for most nations what to do against false horror raids i am convinced that false horror is ok .

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Boron, the reason why you don't see many people arguing with you is an age-old one. People who are happy with the status quo don't need to make a noise to get what they want; they already have it.

Cainehill made the key point. If Caelum with False Horror is so broken, why is Caelum not dominant in most or all MP games? This is in fact a theme in these discussions. Every week we hear about a new tactic which is clearly broken and a guaranteed game-winner. Yet none of them turn up that regularly in my MP experience, and when they do they don't show any sign of guarranteeing victory.

Anyway, the whole point about multi-player diplomatic games is that they're self-balancing. If Caelum really did become that dominant, then everybody's behaviour towards it would change. So if all else fails, Ulm's defense against Caelum is to pay Abysia to stab him in the back!

Mark

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum, and if some games aren't win by Caelum it's because 3 or more people gang up against a far stronger Caelum, and they bring it down ... but they're 3 Nations against 1 however.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

False horror, with mr of 10 (9 in magic lands), one hitpoint and no resistances, not even poison, succumbs to ANY spell. Ever looked at those research level 1/2 spells with very low damage and wondered what they are there for? Now you know.

Marignon, fire flies/fire darts. Darts are more accurate (prec 4 vs 0). Put mages in middle of troops, not behind, and you are pretty much guaranteed a hit or two. As mages usually have high mr, the risk is very small. Also, in alteration combustion guarantees a kill per casting for only 10- fatigue and level 1 spell. On the other hand, it cannot hit more than one target a round.

Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.

In addition to those, the cloud spells are very very useful, esp the freezing mists, that kills every fh in it, is size 4 + and does negligible damage to normal units. (some morale damage though) Ironically, the best landlubber to cast it is a Caelian HSeraph...

A bit more excotic ways are anything with mr and a fireshield is quaranteed to kill all fh:s nearby, Hydras, bog beasts, anything with att >16 and a longer weapon than 0. (that might be too expensive though).

Ok. Give any nation and I tell how it defeats a false horror spam cheaply. Perhaps not cheaper than 180g or even 90 gp, but after you use it, the seraph is gone but you have not taken any losses, so in the end you win. The problem people have with fh is not a lack of working counters, but that it can take out any pd and is very very mobile. Which is exactly what caelum is supposed to be. But then again, make a few fh hunting teams consisting of a single master smith or something, or just give good scripts for the mages you use as sitesearchers, and the caelians lose many good mages as they hit the few pd units augmented with a mage.

How about next time you find a "massively overpowered thing" like you make false horrors sound like, you take a few moments alone with the SCQR, MIQR, game manual spell quide and the said critter's/spell's/whatever's description and think: "Now, if I were a false horror, what would I fear..."

One of the really great things about dom2 is the depth. No, all spells are not balanced with each other. false horror's cost is not fine-tuned to match the gain you get from it compared to, say, immolation. That's the way warcraft works. In dom2, you play a game of rock/paper/scissors, only with a few thousand different moves.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I am playing Caelum quite often, but I dont use false horrors extensively. They are good for small skirmish squads in undefended territories or against very small squads having no mages for backup, but otherwise they are simply too weak.

In a current game I play against Marignon: Marignon sends in Paladins and Flagellants. Their morale is too high for starting a rout by a couple of quickened seraphs casting false horrors only, and their armor offers a fine protection against the false horrors, while etherealness of the false horror is useless against a Fire-9 blessing...

I also tried myself against Ermor: Sure, some undead die against false horrors, but they dont rout and easily overwhelm a couple of false horrors, at least the number of undead I usually receive when playing against ermor. Any orb-lightning does better than a false horror...


I feel that they are rightly priced: They are Illusions! Illusions should be cheap to produce and should be available at large. And an Illusion should be strong and terrific. If you can create any image of your liking, why would you settle for something weak?

Illusions are a powerful tool against all those who believe that they are strong (like those crying for nerfs) and are pretty weak against those who disbelief...

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

What do you want to say with this?

You compare Blood slaves with Air gems?
You compare a battlefield only spell with a summoning spell??

It wasnt my intention at all to compare those 2 spells,I just showed an example strat how to beat False Horror spam and how I beat Caelum in the end.
Those Imps had been very handy for conquering the multiple Watch Towers of my enemy.
Once you can counter the False Horror strat,an enemy who was completely relying on it,will have extreme difficulties.

False Horror is a strong spell,but not too strong imo.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

An Illusion coundn't kill.

Well against a F9 blessing you go for some horrors slowing Marignon guys and you kill via orb lightning.
However Caelum is more mobile than Marignon. So he can avoid your flagellants and paladins, that couldn't be everywhere and take all undefended province.

If you choose to advance in his land with an army he'll death rout it by surrounding it taking all provinces and sending in a little bigger expedition force.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I do not say that Caelum is helpless against Marignon, all I am saying is that Marignon is not helpless against Caelian horrors - and that I do not use false horrors against foes like Marignon as Caelum myself, for I find them to be too weak...

Hmm, I've never ever met an Illusion that I realized as such, but according to most fantasy-magic-rpg-folklore that I am aware of, Illusions usually kill quite well...

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

*Howl of snickering laughter* Ah, you really know how to display your good judgement and intelligence. This is kinda like you using a novel as the basis for your estimation of real world military strengths.

Just because Stormbinder writes about himself in glowing, messianic terms doesn't make it so.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I'm going to totally disregard this statement. Otherwise my sense of disgust would overtake and there would be burning and there would be pillaging.

If you want to look for experienced people, look to Wendigo, Pocus, Nagot, Jasper, PDF (you'll find them on the french forums more) Alex, Jasper, Windreaper hell, even Zapmeister is more experienced than Stormbinder (Hi Zap) and has more cognitive thought patterns.

I wouldn't base your concept of experience on sheer number of Posts. And I definitely wouldn't trust anyones self-proclaimed opinions about themselves.

With that in mind, I'm not going to weigh in on False Horrors or Caelum. Because certain Dom2 players are like blind men, you are trying to explain what the color the sky is. You can talk all day, but in the end they can't see it and they believe what they want to believe.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

And this couldn't be because Maltrease is a good player and because you and the others suck? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Well please post your opinions . I will perhaps ask a lot of questions then about your viewpoints but in the end you probably convince me .

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Bladewind has 80 fatigue . So a mastersmith can cast it twice and after this he is unconscious for some rounds .
He even can damage own troops with the bladewind .

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Really? No one's convinced you of anything yet.

---

A mind like a steel trap - rusted shut.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Not true! Boron has started using punctuation now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Do you ever try playing something before giving your 'expert' opinion?

First - bladewind tends to do very minimal damage to Ulm's national troops. (Never mind that almost _ANY_ area of effect spell can damage friendly troops, exceptions being cold spells with Jotunheim/Caelum, Fire with Abysia, and poison with undead nations.)

Second - Ulm forges things _cheap_. Mastersmiths that aren't forging / researching / casting are usually going to have earth boots. With Summon Earthpower, Bladewind then costs 40 (plus encumbrance). Three casts, and very quickly a 4th, because of fatigue recovery every turn.

Last, did you notice that he scripted Bladewind for the fifth spell? IE, it's probably going to nail all the gathered false horrors in a group. And could actually probably cast it as the 4th and 5th spells actually, since he'll still be conscious after 2 bladewinds.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I dunno why this thread has degenerated into insults and rudeness, but its sure saddening to see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Seems to me that its pretty unlikely false horror spam is balanced well or even working as intended. Just as I think clamming and fetishing are out of whack, or that wrathful skies is too easy to research and too easy to cast.

I mean, its a HUGE game... broad AND deep. Odds are it has some outstanding balance issues, and I think that this forum will tend to hit on them since we have a broad mix of players trying all kinds of different things out. I don't think saying "the game is fine, you just suck" is really the answer here.

I don't see any widely available, viable counters to false horrors. Blade wind is tough to get for most people. Fire darts are wildly inaccurate. And of course MOST empires will be damaging their own troops since the false horros fly in all weather conditions. So what else? Berserkers? Again, not exactly widely available.

It doesnt seem to be that simple a problem to solve...

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

It started out as a 5 star thread. I was so happy to see people liking my little thread about Pythium. I may start another one after this game I am playing to share with people what little I have learnt and to get more info from other players as to what works.

As to false horrors. I find it weird that the spell breaks indeps so well ( I mean, try it it take 10 minutes to set up a game and get to the stage where you can try it ). With a handfull of Serphas you can take any indep. You can grow at an amazing rate. It SEEMS to me to be faster than any other nation. And it is also great for busting PD.

I think Caelum does not win most games since this strategy takes TIME to develop ( like turn 12 or so on normal research maybe a little earlier ) and on a somewhat small map with a few players conflict happens before this time. However on a big map with a good amount of space my money is on Caelum. It's not 100% alliances can be made stuff like that.

How about this. Take a decent sized map ( something a little bigger than Aran ) with 2 players one takes Caelum one takes something else. Set indpes to let's say 9. My money is on Caelum.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Caelum doesn't need False Horrors to start indep conquest.
Wind Guide is sufficient with some quicknessed lightning throwers.
In game tested.

I'm happy to see someone thinks that Wrathful Skies is easy to research and cast (want to see Astral Tempest, or the fire counterpart, how much they cost in paths and research level?)

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

First ulmish archers , sappers and arlabests can be easy damaged by bladewind .
And more important when casting it on turn 4 or 5 the odds are not bad that the horrors have already routed your troops .
Even if they are not routed it doesn't matter at all since the Seraphs continue spamming false horrors with a few occasional phantasmal warriors .
So very nice , even investing 10 earthgems in earthboots you probably still lose .

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but if your sappers, archers and artlabests are in the way of a blade wind, you are probably losing for reasons that have nothing to do with fatigue. Even with crazy placement of mages vs troops and fighting flying units that attack archers, blade wind becomes very, very accurate when it's close.

It's actually 5 gems, you don't start forging Earth Boots without using a Smith + Hammer except for your first pair.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Well if you want my opinion, which it always has been, that Air is the most powerful of school with all the goodies. Now with that said, do I think False Horrors is overpowered because you can spam them? Or because 2 Seraphs or even Harab Seraphs can cause havok and make it frustrating to play with/against.

My answer is no. I do however feel that False Horrors is not true to the game dynamic for only the reason that Air already has multiple summons along it's path. I don't know why Air has to have A.) Cheap Reusable Battle Summons B.) Cheapest Potent Battlewide Magic (Armor Piercing for your pleasure!) C.) High-strength individual battle attacks and individual/battlefield buffs and D.) Universally usable Summons E.) Artifacts that totally negate entire types of units (Archers AND Fliers) at a markedly lower cost than others.

My feeling is that Death (and to a limited extent Nature) should but as good, if not better at A.). So any feelings on 'nerfing' False Horrors falls in line with the magical definition and strength of Paths of magic.

I have been swarmed by False Horrors, I have swarmed with False Horrors, I have been successful and have been unsucessful. In the end it doesn't make as much difference. People who tend to complain about these things in this manner are 'tired' of that strategy because of it's effecitveness and having to mold a defense for it for every nation/pretender.

Caleum is weaker than it was previous to the 2.12 patch, so it's hardly overpowered now more than it was previous. While very decent (I'd place it in the top 5 nations, easily, but not the top) there is no reason it shouldn't be based on the mechanic of flying and it's very obvious advantages in the game that cannot be changed.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

And it may have dropped, not because of 'rudeness and insults', but because of the quality (or lack thereof) of a bunch of Posts written by people who haven't thought about strategies much less tried playing them.

Edit: Or because the rating for a thread about Pythium that contains mostly debate about Caelum doesn't deserve five stars. And sorry, but it wasn't I (who I expect am the alleged rudester) who perverted the thread's content.

Independents are broken just about as fast via a handful of quickened seraphs using lightning. Frankly, I find lightning more effective against many of the independents, and also against any PD that includes archers.

Most of my games are on moderately large maps - Cradle, Karan, etc. And still, I don't see Caelum winning even a simple majority of the games that it's in. This, without "OMG! We gotta get Caelum!" alliances - which just a few months ago, were "OMG! We gotta get Ermor!" alliances. It's simply the panic du jour.

My money would be on Caelum if the "something else" was T'ien C'hi, maybe. Otherwise, it's fairly trivial to come up with a solid counter-Caelum strategy, given that it's only indies and Caelum.

Any of the undead nations / themes would have good odds; all in all, I'd say that about half the nations could get at least 50/50 odds, if you predicate players of equal skill. And any nation could lose against any other nation in this scenario, simply because of luck with magic sites. If you have Atlantis and it only finds 2 water sites in its first 20 provinces, a lot of its usual strategies are shot.

And I can name a handful of prominent posters who would raise the odds of the other nation winning to 75%, if they were playing Caelum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Not that I am agreeing or disagreeing with your sentiments on Caelum but I just wanted to note that Ermor did get a slight nerf when they lost the VQ. Personally, I still hate playing with Ermor while I am pretty neutral about Caelum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

- Kel

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

So you are saying Tien Chi is too weak? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

I use hordes of emerald guards because they die far less against indies and rarely rout (better armor, morale, hps, attack, weapon). They are slow though, use lots or resources and carry no javelins. They can often take lance attacks. I often select fortified city and prod 3 so i can churn more out by turn 5-6 when i have all my neighbors. I find my extreme growth rate to compensate for the lack of sites to hire communicants. Has anyone else tried this?

Emerald Lords have 17 defence skill (15 attack) and rarely die when spells aren't involved. Arm them, give them a small guard, and have them kill rear mages.

Rainbow mages rock with pytium becuase a 4S arch theurg with an astral cap can make a ring of wizardry. Then you shouldn't have any trouble making items or casting spells with your well thought out rainbow. I ussually just take 4S on my rainbow pretender for this reason.

From what i can tell Pythium is about rapid early expansion, even the computer expands rapidly. Against independent 9's emerald guards are the best, except that pythium has assasins.

I've only played against 1 human opponent is several MP games, and I wouldn't use emerald guards to actually attack enemy players with mages, but i wouldn't advise principes for this either. If i was going to attack enemy mages with normal units i would prefer emerald guards though, because of their higher prot, hp, and morale.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Emerald guards are good, but expensive. I personally prefer Principes (atleast with Broken Empire Ermor). Fast, have javelin, still good morale, att and defence, good prot for move-2 unit, considerably cheaper...

And as Ermor, even Broken Empire, lances are only a loss of a longdead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Emerald Guards are excellent when they can be used: that is, when speed isn't needed but you need someone tough on the frontline. Most people in this forum seem to prefer not use frontline at all, but few SCs, and some summons might be more cost effective, but Emerald Guards are very good at what they do.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

Right, I use the emerald guard strategy i outlined to take hordes of provinces early. Drive to another good castle site and repeat once or twice. You'll easily have the most provinces. Often you can have 40 or more by turn 30. That kind of income is a huge boost to research, and you get tons gems with AR. Speed is not neccessary, because you are just taking one province and the next, etc.

Re: I suck with Pythium ... please help!
 

EGs are good against tough independents, like Knights. I find that Principes take heavy casualties against Knights. So early on I build EGs and then I switch to Principes once I've cleared out my area. Then I just use the existing EGs as garrisons.