Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Here is the list of players again so its easier for relations since I know some of us may have already run into other nations.

Aku - Abysia
Klatu - Man
Boron - Pangaea
Pickles - R'lyeh
Drool - T'ien Ch'i
Starwarsluke - Caelum
Lukes brother - Arcoscephale
Alexi - Vanheim
PashaDawg - Machaka
Panther - Pythium

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

From my perspective as a total newbie, I would have to say that Abysia is looking very strong already. In addition to clearly having the most provinces plus dominating the HoF, the god Aku appears to be an SC with 20 kills already by turn 5. I don't even know how to make an SC myself...

I figure I therefore ought to learn a lot about Dominions as I get crushed in this game. It will be a good experience for me. At least I have a nice starting position and should not lose early.

But, are you sure you are really a newbie, Aku? It does not look so to me. Actually, I just suspect you are a fast learner and generally good at computer games.

[ July 30, 2004, 14:17: Message edited by: The Panther ]

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Quoting Panther

" I don't even know how to make an SC myself..."

There is a good thread on it if you search. 20 is not so many kills really - you gun down routers.

"But, are you sure you are really a newbie, Aku? It does not look so to me."

Most of the players here started a nooby game together a couple of weeks ago & this game was originally for those players. Some of us learned fast it appears (check out Boron's post volume). Also I played one complete game before that & offered on this thread to drop as a consequence. Abysia is rock hard IMO too.

Pickles

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

This is my 2nd mp game, the first being the one we all started 2 weeks ago.

I guess I just learn fast and have been playing video games since I was a kid. About SC's I am still experimenting with that. I also read the forums a lot like Boron. Pickles nailed the answers right on the money.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Perhaps, it is pure luck that has blown young Aku through to his current fortunate circumstances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

9 hours left until it force hosts

lukes brother and drool are only ones that need to do their turn (not rushing you guys just dont want you to stale)

Also I notice a lot of factors in MP rely on diplomacy. I think I do at least decently ok in that department also. I also noticed from my first game that we are on like turn 35 or so that mercenaries dont work as well as they do in sp lol. Basically can only use them for independents or just troops to take a few shots.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I am not sure but I think Drool staled Last turn because I checked when it was at two hours before hosting and Drool still had not taken the turn.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

He did stale Last turn, I was up when it was hosting and doing the countdown and he never did the turn. I had sent him a pm earlier but he didnt read it in time bec he just read the pms today. There are 7 hours left so thats 7am my time but for drool that would be 3pm so he should be ok in doing his turn i hope before it hosts.

Also Luke I know you and your brother use the same computer I think but seem to have very different schedules. I notice he always does his turns really late at night or really early in morning(depends what your time zone is).

I think the stale with drool he may have just forgot that he didn't do his turn because he did his turn in the other game that a lot of us here have with him.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Tien Chi (Drool) staled the past two nights. Drool I am just inquiring if everything is ok because it would be unfortunate to see you stale more. Just let us know if everything is ok or maybe you perhaps just forgot.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

AHHHH http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

my stupid SC got killed because my cheap army retreated into the water rather then get back on the boat that brough them there!

I originally thought grabing a costal province that didn't connected to my other provinces except by boat would be a good idea, cos if it got taken my an enemy, they wouldn't normally be able to continue their raid on my other provinces. But without knowing what I was fighting, I didn't script my pretender's spells properly, and he kept casting Blade Wind instead of Thunder Strike.. when my troops finally got charged by the heavy cavalry, they all rooted and everyone died in a horrible death as they tried to swim home.

But they had a boat to carry them all home! Why didn't they sail? (its not like the enemy burnt my boats before the battle, or does losing as battle mean they no longer have access to their boats?!!)

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

mind you, that was my Pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

ah man thats a real bad start

the only thing i guess is to hope for no close neighbors and if you run into someone hopefully they are peaceful

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

plus he was flying too.. just doesn't make any sense, he should have made it back to a friendly provence even if the troops wheren't able too.

i guess the lesson here is just simply NOT to lose any battles, cos retreating is obviously not always predictable. What was the line from the Art of War: 'only fight when the battle is already won'?.. yeah..

anyways, Panther's my closest neighbour.. you won't hit a cripple would you? that's like hitting someone in a wheelchair! its just meeean!

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Hmmmm.... maybe it's time for the Panther to pounce. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

very funny.. but my Pretender's to busy being dead to laugh. http://www.ematerialstudios.com/stuff/dry.gif

has anyone ever tried playing WITHOUT their Pretender? or is that just crazy? If the idiot thought it better to drown with his troops rather then fly to safety, then why should I waste so many months calling his dumbass back?

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Well I have never played Vanheim so I don't know about the sailing stuff much. But yeah I try not to go into a battle unless I know I will win.

I am not sure how much SP experience you have but you can call your god back with your priests. He will lose one from each magic path though. I don't know if anything happens if you don't call him back. If your god was a rainbow pretender then he basically got screwed but otherwise I would call him back. And I guess make nice with the panther or try to be ready for when he pounces.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Well, alexi, I wondered where your troops went. I guess it would not be all that hard to take you out in about 2 moves, but I hate to see a person eliminated before the game really gets going.

So, what does everyone think? Should I try to eliminate him or not? I still have plenty of neutrals to take so I have lots to do if even I do not attack his capital. Since he lost his god, I probably have about an 80% chance to kill him. The chance of losing is a big risk for me, though.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I have never used boats but I think this is what I would expect. You may only rout to an adjacent friendly province, if there are none you die.
Adjacent is adjacent - it does not check how you arrived at the province.

You are probably shafted to lose your pretender this early. You are down a mass of research or combat power or something else important. You can do without later

Unlfortunate start though.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">afaik i know you can only retreat into direct neighbors . flying doesn't help either .

for game balance issues this is great otherwise caelum dropping in your "hinterlands" and savely routing would be too strong .

my sincere condolences to your pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
i have played vanheim only once in sp so far but they have good units so losing the pretender does hurt them but not as bad as e.g. ermor .

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Originally posted by alexi:
"very funny.. but my Pretender's to busy being dead to laugh."

You know I'm just tryin to yank your chain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Show mercy... why take a big risk? This could give you an opportunity to expand in the other direction safely.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

"The chance of losing is a big risk for me, though."

I would say it is about no risk of you losing but you may be able to expand slightly faster against neutrals and it may take longer than you expect.

"Show mercy... "

It is supposed to be a newb game & you will both learn more by not fighting (each other now).

Pickles

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Also part of mp is about diplomacy. It is up to alexi and panther to negotiate war or peace.

In the other mp we are doing I got into a war early like around 10 or so and it took me over 25 turns to finally win. Even if you have a superior army a lot of ping ponging of provinces can happen if both armies never meet. Also spies are important because that is the only way to know what your enemy has and their troop movements. Alexi lost his god and may be weak but also may not be. It can result in two things, alexi dies fast, or doesnt die fast like you expect and you guys get locked in a long war. But that is part of mp and up to you panther to make that decision.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

"You know I'm just tryin to yank your chain."

i know.. and i'm just playin along http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"Alexi lost his god and may be weak but also may not be."

well, i'll be honest, i didn't have much experience with Vans before starting this game. But I've since discovered a bunch of successful strategies in SP for Vans, and with those the painful realization that my current scales+pretender made an extremely poor combination. I don't expect to survive long without my pretender's magic since i was relying on Blade Winds and Thunder Strike early on, and then after turn 10 it was Destruction+Blade Winds. This allowed me to take out most independents with very few troops + my pretender, which was required since all my gold went towards buying mages for research to get those spells. (which also means I don't have priests to call my god back..)

The reason why my scales where wrong for this early game strategy is because I took Sloth3, which makes it really tough to recruit armies. Vanheim has terrific troops, and ignoring them was stupid of me when I built my pretender. Their mages are good, but useless in battle until mid game or later. Plus I took the Midgard theme, which limits my troop selection to Skin Shifters and Einhere (which are both excellent in combat) but without high resources, I can't recruit them fast enough to build armies. Plus, with that theme you lose access to the best Van commanders outside your capital. So I would have been crippled by mid game anyways without the capacity to make armies and I would have had to use mostly Galdermans, which require equipment or alot of luck to get the right magics. I'd be interested in hearing about any other strategies for Midguard. My intuition is that Midguard is all about killer Skin Shifters+Einhere armies supported by a few Galdermans.

With this in mind, Panther is welcome try to take me, but my grieving nation is not gonna go down without a fight.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Alexi, I decided to not attack you for the following reasons:

1. Even if you have practically no troops right now, you can recruit some in this turn and next.
2. You could likely bump up the PD maybe to 30 since your upkeep is low right now.
3. Even though I could easily be seiging your capital in two turns, I have no idea how long it will take to bust down the walls, especially with no seige specialists in my army.
4. I will be fighting in your domain, thus reducing my pretender's HP and my troops morale.
5. The arrows from the towers have a nasty habit of moving down slow, armored infantry, which I have in my army right now.
6. I could take several neutral provinces in the time it would take to siege and take the fortress.
7. R'lyeh could sneak onto shore near me if I am too far away from my own capital.
8. Your Vanheim capital will be a buffer from attacks, and I will not have to worry about being attacked from your direction for quite a while.

So, adding it all up means I will be playing it safe for now.

Cheers, and here's hoping you recover quickly, alexi.

The Panther

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Also with early battles it is small armies so you couldnt just overwhelm his troops so you would be suffering casualties. Also it would be disastrous if he was building his castle walls faster than you could take it down. Would of been an interesting war but you made a lot of interesting points to not war. I did something similar against Abysia(nation I had early war with). He attacked my capital but did not suspect me to have moved their with troops on move then patrol so he got my army and my pd all at once. Also I had started putting spies in all his provinces and then worked my way back taking over his land until I got to his capital.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

"Cheers, and here's hoping you recover quickly, alexi."

thanks!

Edit: i just thought of some useful ways of using the units available to the Midgard theme even with low resources and no pretender... necessity is the mother of invention right? maybe playing handicapped isn't so bad after all

[ July 31, 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: alexi ]

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Well one thing you will learn to play better at least. Like for me the early war for me helped me learn a lot. SP is way different than MP and there is still a lot to learn because players are so different than the AI. Like against the AI I could predict what province they would attack but I kept failing to predict Abysia's movement paths. But back to what I was saying is that under bad conditions you are going to think more and make the best of your situation so when things are under good conditions you will be much better.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm i have not much xp with vanheim but started a pbem (currently at turn 2 ) game where i play standard vanheim .

i see nothing that speaks against sloth 3 . your most expensive unit only costs 20 resources , a van only 16 and a skin shifter only 7 .

i think a f9 bless van + skin shifter army is really scary early - midgame .

vanheim has ihmo damn good national troops at least top 5 .

i myself like the "normal no theme vanheim" best though . no need to worry about supplies even against ermor because of the fay swines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
and blessed valkieries + vans are great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

yeah.. i figured standard vanheim was better. and sloth3 prevents you from building a bunch of 20 unit squads of skin shifters within a few turns.

but today i started playing around with the Midguard theme, and it kicks ***!! much better then standard theme. Cos in midguard you get cheaper researchers with astral2. This didn't strike me as more usefull then the other magic unit which has A2 and 2random. But imagine the sight of a squad of 25-30 skinshifters that are all ethereal and lucky, making them almost impossible to hit, and if you do hit them, they go into beast form and regenerate!! And then you have 6-10 Stellar Cascades stunning your entire army so that even your best units are unconscious, just waiting for my impossible-to-hit-regenerating-beasts to rip them to shreds.. its extremely effective.

All that WITHOUT a pretender! No bless, no rainbow, no supercombatant.

Anyways, I'm sure you could adapt this strategy for any race that has cheap S2 mages. And it would be even more powerfull with sacred units and a F9 or W9 bless.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

It appears the Drool is still AWOL. Has he responded to your inquiries, Aku?

I am playing another MP game currently, and someone in that game is AWOL, too (which is not very much fun for the rest of us).

If it becomes clear that someone has dropped out, do we have the power to turn his/her empire over to the computer's control? (This would be a drastic remedy, but in some cases it might need to be done.)

Perhaps, we could set up a standard. For example: if a player misses his/her turn for 10 turns in a row and has failed to communicate an explanation to the other players, then the other players shall have the discretion (perhaps, after a vote) to turn the missing player's nation over to the computer's control until the player returns.

I think things would be different if the player had a reason to leave the game temorarily and requested that the other players indulge him by pausing the game, etc. (For example, I know I will be traveling to Italy in late September. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm finding a sub is better . because in a 10 player game most likely about 5-8 players will e.g. be in holidays 1-2 weeks at least too .
so only pause if the player in holiday doesn't find a sub or if there are 2+ players in holiday at the same time .


oh and enjoy your trip to italy then Pasha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm good strat i never thought of that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif problem :
etheral effect is canceled by magic weapons .
caelum has magic weapons .
every race with f9 bless too .

+ you need 2 turns with your mages casting etheral + luck and your skinshifters on hold orders .

so archers/x-bows espeically with wind guide/flaming arrows can cause severe damage while you buff

so do any flying armies with attack rearmost orders or something similiar


but otherwise a really nasty idea . evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif


Last problem that comes to my mind :
enemy = ryleh / pythium :
they mind duel your S2 mages to death with ease http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

**IMPOTANT ANNOUNCEMENT**
Hey All, This your server host Klatu.

T'ien Ch'i (Drool) has just missed his 4th consecutive turn. What should we do about this race? The turns would have played much faster, but we keep having to wait for his no show.

Please post so i can get a general concensus. I guess the options would be: 1. Keep waiting for him in case he plays; 2. Leaving T'ien Ch'i as it is, but force a host when all but he has played; 3. Put T'ien Chi on an AI setting; 4. (not even sure if this is possible) Delete T'ien Ch'i from the game.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

uhh, i'm not in this game, but 4 stale turns in a row is beyond the pale. can his cowardly ***.

(hopefully you have a master password. otherwise, your only alternative is to try and PM him and plead w/ him to go AI).

force hosting each turn is a pain, and an insult to you and the other honorable players. just turn him over to the AI if you can. deleting a nation is not an option.

[ August 01, 2004, 16:31: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I vote for option two.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

"etheral effect is canceled by magic weapons"

yup. But this tactic doesn't stand on only one leg. Luck stops 50% of hits. It's also counting on the units special ability. Using this with regenerating means that their lifespans are extended by 50%. In most cases, since they have the wonderfull ability to swarm, that's enough to prevent casualties.

"+ you need 2 turns with your mages casting etheral + luck and your skinshifters on hold orders."

When I tested this out, I found that the "hold and attack" command is enough to have them stay two turns for both etheral and luck to be cast on the troops.

"so archers/x-bows espeically with wind guide/flaming arrows can cause severe damage while you buff"

I also found that leaving even a handfull of troops up in front (with orders to hold and attack as well) attracts all the missile fire. And even if a player sets their archers to fire rear (which already limits their accuracy), you should always carry a Staff of Storms. There's also the option of casting Arrow Fend or producing amulets of missile protection for your casters.

"so do any flying armies with attack rearmost orders or something similiar"

Since the army that's being "mass-buffed" is literaly surrounding your casters, they act like bodyguards. In my tests, I had plenty of flyers suicide themselves on my army.


"Last problem that comes to my mind :
enemy = ryleh / pythium :
they mind duel your S2 mages to death with ease"

A very real possibility. Although with S2 casters, you should be equiping all of them with a +1S item anyways to have them cast teleport and Soul Slay. This probably won't save them from mind duels though. I guess it might be safer to keep them out of combat with pythium/ryleh.

"but otherwise a really nasty idea . evil"

Indeed. I've yet to try it with sacred troops. My guess is that you could use a smaller army with fewer casters. And that's the key to having lots of seperate armies doing differenting things on all your borders. I think if you need large armies to accomplish anything, you can't cover enough fronts to battle more then one opponent at a time. And depending on diplomacy to keep you safe is risky (although being completly new to MP, I've yet to discover the advantages of diplomacy to gameplay)

Edit: it true that this strategy will suffer against some races (like Boron mentioned, Bless F9 and Caelum). But if you go up against Caelum or F9, you simply take etheral out of your scripts. Nothing works against everything, so I guess this is just one of many other strategies that give you a slight advantage. But like in professional gambling, that's all you need.

[ August 01, 2004, 17:39: Message edited by: Alexi ]

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

oh, and lets put him on AI if he doesn't respond. it sucks, but its holding the game back (not to mention that the longer he stays AWOL, his nation suffers, and becomes too easy of a target for whoever's close to him)

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I guess we just turn him AI. He is doing his turns in another game that a bunch of us have with him but not in this one so wtf. So far only lukes brother and drool need to do their turns. I will send him another pm and see if he responds. If he doesnt respond then I say we turn him AI.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Alexi I assume you are trying these strats in our current game so nobody attacks you lol?

Anyway about Drool I sent him a pm. I guess when Lukes brother does his turn we could force host it but if no response by tomorrow I say we then turn him into the AI.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Originally posted by Boron:
"hm i had bad luck too .
random event vampire count attack http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
the province will be lost for a few turns grmml
given my slow expansion with cw this really hurts."

Told you there were Indep vampires.

I bet you have bad luck scales though?

Pickles

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Originally posted by Aku:

"Anyway about Drool I sent him a pm. I guess when Lukes brother does his turn we could force host it but if no response by tomorrow I say we then turn him into the AI."

I think we ought not to force host until tomorrow when he should have repsonded or not then turn him AI - 5 turns is long enough to tell us what is going on

Pickles

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I have a question if you bid on mercenaries but do not get them do you get the gold back?

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Yes

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">your strat is good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif nothing works against everything .
but you have yourself powerful bless units in the vans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
and you still have a2 and even a few lucky a3 mages in the galdermans with mitgard .

so against ryleh you can perhaps switch to orb lightnings and the like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

but i still like standard vanheim more because of the dwarfen smiths http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ August 01, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I would force the Host after Luke's brother takes his turn, and then turn him onto AI if he does not respond. (His behavior is partularly surprising given that he is playing his turns in a different MP game.)

But, hey, even with the delays, I am really enjoying the MP experience.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

I say to force host after lukes brothers turn. He is doing his turns in other MP games but not this one...

Also I just found out from Klatu a problem. He forgot to put master password in but said he has no problem in force hosting each turn since he said he checks it so much anyway it isnt a big deal.

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

Well, shut my mouth, is Drool back?

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

hm i had bad luck too .
random event vampire count attack http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
the province will be lost for a few turns grmml
given my slow expansion with cw this really hurts .

Re: MP Game - Newbie Game (by Aku)
 

11 hours left until it hosts...only drool hasnt done the turn. Should we have Klatu force host it? The majority of us so far have seemed to what it force hosted after everyone but drool has done their turn. Should I call up Klatu and tell him to do it?