Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

That would screw up games that have already been started with older Versions of the mods.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Since he keeps changing the .dm's filename, I hardly think that doing as I suggest for the next Version would cause any more inconvenience than has been experienced to date.

EDIT: by continually changing the .dm filename he's circumventing the mod system's built-in Versioning, as the game then treats them as different mods rather than different Versions of the same mod. Some players may actually like that, but overall it's not the way most other mods are handled. And by changing the archive filename he's making it needlessly harder for anyone that wants to host the file.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

It's necessary when modifying pretenders, as otherwise they will be turned into magicless archmages whenever the costs are changed.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Really? I hadn't known that. Few mods tweak pretenders, hence my ignorance. Sounds like a seriously bad BUG in the mod system that should have a high priority in getting fixed by IW. Thanks for explaining it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Woo!

Another Version based on some concrete feedback.

I have taken the liberty of updating the Readme to my limited extent, though you may want a final word from Edi. Since that's where the checks are signed!

www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp17.zip

In the near future I will release the Spells, Items, and Nations portion of this mod. It is sectional for the reasons that if you feel one portion of the mod fits your mood or your friend's idea of balance. Then you may mix and match, not adhering to the full "Series". Though most of the changes complement each other and certain changes in one mod reflect other things (Like this Version the Lance and Light Lance have been directly modified because of it's relationship to SC's and length issues. While this may affect nations in the game, it is for the purpose not to enhance those using these weapons, but to balance out the new concept of "Wing Buffet". It also has rational or logical/thematic roots as well).

Note: The Mod is also in the Attatchment.

Zen Approved and Tested

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, since the general approach that you have taken seems to be oriented towards eliminating "no-brainer" choices whe it comes to Pretenders and magic items, might you be enticed to do the same for scales, since at present it seems that a very limited combination of scale choices are considered by most to be "no-brainers"?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Well, there's already one or two mods for doing that with scales, I think - one by Saber Cherry (?) and possibly one more.

Oh, and I disagree that they're no brainers. After all - I still take Turmoil-3 Luck-3 sometimes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I actually have a mod, already completed that does this. However, I don't feel it would be wise to release it just yet until I has sufficent testing to fit it where I like.

Certain issues that I feel should be adjusted is the reliance on the Order scale for gold, the very limited impact of the Growth Scale and that certain Luck events are blunted and placed into a Category of "Mildly annoying" and "Does not scale as the game progresses".

While certain things can be adjusted others cannot (You cannot even mod the Magic scale at all) and the scales are not interchangable in mod types (Like Giving Order +6% Income per scale and +.5 Growth along with -5% Event). So I am left with only running in the variables left to me to find a happy equilibrium that any effect, positive or negative has an impact, including certain scales that are required for nation/themes.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hey Zen! You got the blood gem income working on the pretenders? Woohoo! Slonshal!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I *am* an evil genius, after all.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Okay, Readme for v1.7 is now edited. There was not much to do, just caught one mistake that had slipped by earlier (Frost Father had no mention of having Sailing added). Most of the new modifications were either adding something or removing something, not modifying existing values.

Also noticed one curious thing: If both 1.65 and 1.7 are enabled at the same time, the game combines them, at least as long as there is no conflict between them in the modification of a given stat. Creating a Dragon pretender with 1.7 and then additionally enabling 1.65 when starting a game will result in the modification made in 1.7 (removing the +2 def) being ignored, because there is no conflicting modification between the two Versions.

Don't know if this is an issue for MP purposes, but I was curious after Graeme's point about magicless archmages (I'd noticed it myself). Apparently non-conflicting modifications do not trigger that cheat detection.

Oh yes, the new readme file is attached.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hrm. Never did get an answer to this - being as the land Arch Mage gets dominion 2 now, was the aquatic Arch Mage deliberately left with Dominion 1? (Possibly so, as the aquatic gets Water-1 and also trampling, albeit trampling is ... less than useful for human pretenders.)

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

He is left the same because he costs 0. A significant amount of points that he can apply to dominion or perhaps paths. The Lobster also allows the underwater Archmage to not be picked up by Wind Ride (when he ventures onto land) without the help of Earth or Ethereality.

I could raise his price slightly and give him a slightly higher Dominion in order to keep in theme with the other Archmage.

You also might notice that the Roar doesn't in fact do Fear, that is currently an unimplementable feature, but you should notice that it sounds hella cool when your Lord of the Desert Sun rawrs enemies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I'm aware of those, but how many MP games use them?

Zen's mod on the other hand, is already being used by a few games. So I guess that makes all the difference.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I don't know for Solomon Islands games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, but in France I've played a couple PBEM with SC scales. O3/M3 was clearly not a no-brainer anymore, I've had one nation literally razed by events in 12 turns in one of them ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

So, where can I get the latest Version of this mod, to take a peek at it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Try post #301565, a few Posts above ...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Up here Daynarr http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But easier would be www.techno-mage.com/~zen/concept171.zip

Or the Attatchment.

NEWEST VERSION 1.71

Changes from Version 1.7

I mistyped the Light Lance (#357) so it was not recieving it's length bonus.

That is the only change so if you are currently running a game with it, that is the only change.

Notes: I am pretty satisfied with the Mod as it stands right now until more Mod Tools are released. Though I am still taking feedback and very interested in some "Old Fashioned" pretenders that people have tried and if/how it's different and maybe new pretenders.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I'll get back to you on the Asynja, I've got to run a few checks on it, but I've not the time until tomorrow. That one might need some tweaking, it's now so unattractive compared to the male titan.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I do not know whether I should be openning my mouth in such august company, but isn't there a problem with changing the order/turmoil and luck/misfortune scale? The Marignon&Devils and Spring&Autumn themes would get a major boost. After all, Turmoil is supposed to be a bad scale that keeps these two themes down.

In the same way, some of the nations that are required to take Death and Misfortune would be influenced as well. The Vampire Queen nerf hurt Black Forest Ulm hard. I do not think the theme can actually survive increased penalties for death and misfortune.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Good question. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Well the Order/Turmoil issue is not that Diabolic Faith and S&A (and BK, don't forget http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif will become overpowered unless not enough thought is done to the repositioning. But making Order less of a single impact (Gold, and that's all really). Because as it stands now, a Forced Turmoil 1 Nation does not lose 7% Income (A slight but significant impact nationwide), but instead loses 28% (Since if you can take Order and decide to take it (Safe bet) you will pick Order 3). If this scale had less of a single influence impact and some of it's single influence (Gold) was adjusted to other scales then it would still be "the Scale" for Gold, but if you were forced to take Turmoil, you could circumvent some of that gold loss by taking another scale.

Death on the other hand, I do not agree that adjusting it will hamper Black Forest (or Helheim), simply because I *always* take Death to some degree. Death 2 to be precise. And it may be because I don't play games past the 100 Turn mark, or that I don't want to rely on my Dominion to keep supply (Since it's hard enough to maintain). And it's a playstyle issue. However, the minute death of the death scale coupled with the minor loss of income makes Growth seem (to me) to be a waste of points.

On the Misfortune part: There are, I think, two schools of thought on this. The first being that you are going to have bad events even if you have luck, so you might as well get some Nation/Pretender points if you do (a valid opinion). The second is that even some of the Minor Luck events on the side of "Good Luck" tend to not give enough to be considered lucky (Milita don't get the ol' juices flowing), so taking Luck is a gamble (Perhaps Long shot), whereas taking Misfortune is playing the spread.

Like I said, I haven't rolled out the mod because I haven't tested it enough personally to feel comfortable with the changes (which are no, in fact standard changes of adjusting *just* the Scale adjustments).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Time to get in those Asynja comments:

With the Asynja's cost unmodified and her magic not increased, she is a totally useless pretender to take compared to the male titan.

Reasons why: The main point to take Asynja would be to get air blessing (Air 9, probably). However, it is cheaper to achieve Air 9 with titan, even though its initial cost is greater. Assuming same scales, same dominion strength and same castle, the titan is 21 points cheaper, and it is physically more powerful and has 100% shock resistance, which the asynja does not. The Asynja is stealthy and has glamour, which imo does not nearly compensate for the other shortcomings, especially when the titan only has a new pathcost of 50 vs Asynja's 40.

Furthermore, the point totals are set up so that typically the asynja will have an uneven number of points unspent that are not enough to afford anything useful, while the titan with the otherwise same everything will have 40 points, or one more scale left.

The titan's cost was lowered from the unmodded game, while the asynja is unchanged, and even in the unmodded game, to achieve the same effects (assuming Air 9), the titan was 6 points cheaper. As things stand right now, the Asynja is a complete and utter waste of resources unless one is fond of having a sneaking pretender leading an army of Vanheim holy units, but why take the pretender when you can have the Vanheimn commanders (glamour + stealth) do the same?

I would suggest either lowering Asynja's base cost or beefing her up a bit, or doing something to make her more attractive than the immediate competition for the same role.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Thanks Edi. I have run into the Asynja problem, but I wasn't really lookint at it in regards to the Titan, but rather in regards to the Allfather. She is the medium between them but doesn't seem to fit in either role. Though she is significantly cheaper with the same SC capability as the unmodded Allfather (without the intrinsic flying, or mounted, which does play a difference, as well as having to equip flying boots).

I haven't been able to find much information on the Asynja mythology (This is Freya?) as far as looking for ideas that do not conflict with other Gods.

This problem is run into with a variety of nations with Nation specific pretenders. One you'll see is Pangaea, as well as Ermor and Man have issues with this.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Spoken like someone who lives in Vegas!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I wasn't able to find that much about the Asynja, but here's what little I did find: Asynja is not a specific deity, but the word for a female Aesir, one of the two pantheons of Norse gods, along with the Vanir.

Since the Allfather is Odin (who has a lot of names, including Wotan, whom I mistakenly thought was another deity), it might make sense to associate the Asynja with Frigg (or Frigga), the mother goddess and wife of Odin. Frigg and Freya are closely related, and may in fact be different aspects of the same deity. Frigg was considered queen of the heavens, the goddess of motherhood, fertility, love and housework. She was reputed to have the ability to forsee everyone's destiny without revealing it. She owned a necklace, the Brisingamen, which, besides making her irresistable to man or god, gave support to any army which she favored on the battlefield. She also possessed a cloak of feathers which allowed her to change into a falcon, or into the battle-boar Hildisvin (which she is also described as riding). She chooses half the slain on the battlefield, whilst Odin gets the other half (is this the justification for the Allfather's death magic?). As Freya, she also practised Seidhr, the form of magic practised by the Volva. There is speculation that Gullveg was Freya under another name, and if so, she was stabbed and burnt 3 times, but arose from the flames each time and transformed herself into Heidhr, the Glorious, mistress of magic. This started the war between the Aesir and Vanir.

Whew. Confusing stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But out of it, I can come up with some suggestions. 1) Give the Asynja some nature magic, since she's a fertility goddess. Problem is she basically becomes a Mother of Tuathas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif 2) Give her the ability to avert bad events, since she foresees destiny, and practises Seidhr. Not bad, and especialy thematic for Midgard. You'd probably even want to change her path to Astral. 3) Give her a standard, since she owns the Brisingamen. 4) Depict her as riding a great boar, and give her trampling. 5) Let her tranform into a falcon. 6) Make her immortal - but I don't know that Dom2 needs an immortal titan-class pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I rather favor changing her path to 2S, or possibly 1S1N, and giving her a standard effect, while removing the glamor. It might be a bit much to give her bad luck prevention as well, but it might be thematic. She should remain a mighty warrior, as all the Aesir were apparently gods of war.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

...but don't touch her Friggin Volva!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

So, basically, you need something to make Asynja different than Titan and Allfather and still a good choice for players?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Yes. Without stepping on the toes of any other pretenders (like the Tuatha). I am perfectly fine keeping her base stats the way they are now (Since Vanir have glamour, it says, and Valkyries).

Truper has come up with some great suggestions, a few of which I can't use (I can't have her prevent bad events, as of yet).

Also making her turn into a hawk would require significant image modding which I am more than lackluster with.

All suggestions are welcome.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I don't know it will help but I guess I could mention a few of the more anonymous asynjas from the myths. Trouble is that little is known about them or if they even survived ragnarok (which seems to have taken place in the Dominions setting).

Brynhild was the leader of the valkyrie. She is featured in the saga of Sigurd Fafnesbane. A pick in death magic and flying seems appropriate.

Eir was the asynja of the healing arts. She tended the wounded at ragnarok and thus is a possible survivor. Should get the healing ability as well as picks that give her access to atleast one healing spell.

Eldsborg was the asynja of the hearth, or lifegiving fire. I know next to nothing about her but giving vanheim access to firemagic is an interesting shift in gameplay.

Frigg as you mentioned had the power of foresight and the stories tell that she knew lore that was hidden even from Odin. She would have known the outcome of Ragnarok and might well have travelled to the vanir for protection.

Freya is perhaps the most famous asynja, being the godess of love (but not fertility since that her brother Freys domain). She wears the brisinggamen (the burning necklace) and is able to change into a falcon. Should have no picks in magic but high awe and most likely the seduction ability, with stealth to be meaningful. The sprite for the unit is not appropriate though, considering Freya was not a warrior in any aspect.

Fjorgyn was the mother of mighty Thor. She was the asynja of fertility until she retired and left the domain to Frey. Since the gods are ageless she fits the anonymous warrior role fairly well. One might guess that she would also want to return to full godhood since her she didn't retire in a very gentle fashion. It seems even gods have politics. She would be a powerful nature pretender if anything.

Gondul (Bearer of the sorcerous staff) is also very likely. She was one of the highest ranking valkyrie and famous for her skill in battlemagic. No starting picks but pathcost 10.

Groa only plays a minor role in one of Thors sagas but is described as a powerful magician, skilled in healing wounds.

Gullveig was a powerful valkyrie and it was her death that sparked the vanir-aesir war. Her name means "The power of gold" and she was known as a extraordinary skilled mage. She could be back with a vengeance now that the gates of the underworld have opened wide.

Hild was another valkyrie, keeper of the domain of neverending war. Her name means "battle" or "struggle".

Nierthys or Nerthus is the elder goddess of fertility, outdating even the aesir. Once the head of the whole pantheon she was replaced by Odin when the old religion shifted into a lot more patriarchial structure. She fits the role as a pretender well and would be accosiated with nature and earth. It's diety I shifted the Asynja into in my own mod.

Ran is the asynja of storms and the ocean. A grim warrior as well as a respected diety. Should get air and water.

Saga was the asynja of storytelling and the storytellers mead. The only daughter of the highest ranking aesir, Odin and Frigg. She was the first who saw the flames of Ragnarok billowing from the home of the elves. Saga means "She who watches".

Skade was not exactly an asynja. She was a jotun who married the aesir Njord. But nevertheless she had her own domains. Hunting and skiing. She is described as a very mighty warrior indeed and it was trough sheer intimidation that she forced the aesir to provide her with a husband.

Skuld was the most important of all the valkyrias, even more so than Brynhild. She was also one of the nornas and had dominion of time not yet passed. Skuld means "Future".

Trud was the daughter of Thor and Sif. Strongest of all the asynjas and even her own father, legendary for his great strength, was pushed to his limits when they wrestled. She must have been quite a handful as a child. Her name means "Strength". A fierce valkyrie who never met her match on the battlefield.

There are of course even more asynjas but these are the ones I felt most appropriate for the role. Illwinter seems to have been thinking along the line of a valkyrie pretender though. Only Ran is accosiated with airmagic though and she was hardly one to use illusions, being a "smite first and ask for prayers later" kind of diety.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Truper: Odin was a god of the dead. He collects dead warriors from the battle field and has a place for dead warriors to live. He also hanged himself to gain magical knowledge (thus his name hangatyr/hangadrott - the hanged god/king). Apart from being a god of the dead he is a god of wisdom, magic, poetry, berserker fury, war and rulership. He studied Seidhr and forbid the other aesir to practice it as it would make them 'girlish'.

Wautan and others: Norse mythos is quite incoherent. There are three categories of gods. Aesir, vanir and giants. They are rather interchangeable. When a god is evil or wicked he is a giant. When a giantess (skade) marries an aesir she is called a god.

Gullveig is also another name for Angerboda, the hag of the iron wood, mother of monsters (Fenrer etc).

Skuld was one of the norns. I haven't heard any reference to her as a valkyrie, but it is not improbable that she was called valkyrie at times.

The reason the asynja is given air magic is because we have given vanheim air magic and wanted to make her a pretender with the same magic as her nation uses.

The magic of vanheim is actually not appopriate mythologiacally. Vanir were gods of fertility and nature. Frey, Freya and Njord were vanir. The aesir that replaced most of the vanir were less 'primitive' and had roles as gods of war, rulership etc.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

So, could Asynja get Healing (50) ability and recuperation (to heal herself)? It would give her something special and occasionally useful. It seems to be thematic as well.

The question is, would that made her desirable enough to be selected as pretender.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Recuperation is a good suggestion, since Vanheim has no access to any other recuperating pretender. Vanheim's choices overall are limited, in fact. Many's the time I've lamented that they don't get to choose the Prince of Death or the Fountain of Blood, to name just two.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I have done a change.

Newest Version 1.72

www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp172.zip

Changes:

Asyjna = -2Air, +Stealth, +Glamour, Basecost: 100, +Astral, +Nature, +Recuperation

Arch Mage (Lobster) Basecost: 10, StartDom: 2

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I'm hosting a game using 1.72 Version of Zen's Pretender Mod.

The thread with game details is located in the MP forum.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

How about we change the Arch Mage Lobster by getting rid of the stupid human rider guy and just making him the Lobster God! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Lightning.gif[/img]

Or maybe... The Crawdaddy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Yeh! I mean - how stupid is an archmage who can't figure out, "Hey, if I get off my lobster, I can go up on land"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And if he's the Lobster God, or even the Crawfish .... He's better eating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Nice job you are doing there, here is a bit of criticism http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

1)the sacred statue is pretty useless compared to the oracle. She has +80 hp, poison resistance and gets new paths for 10 points less.

The oracle has + 1 astral, gets 2 magic gems and costs 30 points less.
hp and poison resistance aren´t that useful for an immobile pretender and as long as you take less than 5 magic paths the orcale is cheaper/equally cheap.
So the +1 astral and the two gems make the oracle pretty much a nobrainer.
I would suggest giving the statue earth 1 or 2.

2)nataraja is also useless.
Compare it to a wyrm. wyrm has twice as much hp/regeneration, far better stats, and costs the same.

nataraja has more leadership and attacks. At least give the nataraja some magic weapons.
a heroic quickness effect would be nice if that would be moddable.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Interesting feedback. My goal with the Sacred Statue was to give a, stay at home rainbow. With it's ability to Teleport it can get into battle if it so chooses. I may have to look at it more.

Interesting feedback. I don't agree with you on your point that the Wyrm vs the Natarajah (however the Wyrm is a good pretender, to be sure). The slotability of the Natarajah as well as the ability to upgrade throughout the game makes me feel he is priced right in comparison with the others. I would also venture to say that he is still within the top tier (if not the top slot) of SC pretenders.

If you feel he is 'useless' could you give me a little more feedback as to why?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The Nataraja can also wear boots, armour, and wield four weapons. The arms alone more than make up for the difference.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Heh? I thought nataraja cost 0 or did zen change that too?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Nataraja is just fine IMHO.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Nataraja needs a +2 attack or something like that, it has very weak attack skill compared to almost anything (just 11 attack natively, not much better than regular human infantry), but otherwise it doesn't need anything more.

Zen, did you get my emails with the CB:S readme files? If you've taken a look at it, some feedback would be nice? Also, if you have made no changes to the Pretender mod, do you want me to organize the mod code for you?

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

With 4 arm slots, if you don't use a lot of long weapons (thus over-reaching ambidexterity), your attack skill has a lot of room to improve, via the weapon bonuses.

- Kel

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Not any more than if you only had one weapon, or two. Attack is calculated for every weapon, and weapons' attack rating only affect its own attack rating. With many attacks you hit more often, but using Nataraja with eg. two-handed weapon, weapon and shield should be applicable too. I think his att/def Ratings could easily be improved a little, four arms do have lots of uses and he is quite skilled at using them all (just take a look at his ambidextercity value!).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Useless?

The only pretender who can happily wield a wraith sword, a charcoal shield, and a shield of valour at the same time, useless? (or any other number of devastating combinations? You can even make a four-shield variant with insanely high defense, trampling, quickness and high reinvigoration fairly early in the game if you want to; again, charcoal, luck, valour shields are favourites for this)

The Demi-god semi-archmage wanna-be who can dual wield the elemental magic boosting staves (one of each type) when needed for specific rituals, useless? [Nobody would take the Nataraja just for this, but is is just one of the many things the Nataraja can do]. There are a lot of path boosters that can be carried in the hands, and the Nataraja has more than his fair share http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

The Wyrm is better at what it does best: Early-game expansion with extreme prejudice. On the other hand, it sucks at magic and can only wear few path-boosters. The Nataraja's strengths are entirely different - he is one of the most versatile pretenders since you have so many opportunities for equipping him due to his extra arms. Combat-melee, combat-magic, ritual magic - with the right kit he is excellent in each Category. The two extra arms are worth far more than the miscellaneous slot he loses.

The Nataraja is one of my favourite pretenders. Don't ask to make him stronger - he really does not deserve it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Amen! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Nothing related to weapon ATT bonuses, but it should be pointed out that when fighting big critters (of the sort that won't bow to a single blow), every attack (even unsuccesful attacks - IIRC) will reduce said critter's DEF by 1. In that special case, this is equivalent to granting a +1 ATT bonus to the second Naty attack, +2 ATT to the 3rd, +3 ATT to the 4th.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I think the best quote about the Natty is from Alex Podger:

"I give him 4 thumbs up!"

Pretty much sums up the Natty and why he is so good.

Are you sure about this? I thought it was -1 per ATTACKER. This makes a rather large difference.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

It's -1 defense per attack, which is why sleep vines are so great.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

ok didn´t really think about the extra slots and got the costs wrong too. Still I think the nataraja is somewhat lacking compared to other titan sized pretenders.