Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Lowering base encumbrance by one sounds good.

However, I don't think that's really needed. Ulm fight just fine if they have enough critical mass in their infantry. In on of my current games, I've just fought off two massive attacks from Marignon using a moderately large block of Ulm infantry, one holy-3 caster for Surmon of Courage, and a flank of a few Ulm leaders with earth trinkets and 7 black knights. I've lost one infantry of Ulm in each battle, and killed about 80 enemies in each battle including several commanders. No Ulmites routed or collapsed from fatigue.

Morale and magic resistance are worse weaknesses for Ulm than fatigue. Fatigue is solved by bringing enough troops to battle.

PvK

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Versus undead Ermor is where fatigue really comes into play. Actually, considering the MR-negates weapons of Soul Gate Ermor, that'd be pretty nasty against Ulm as well.

For me, reducing Ulm's encumbrance is more based on the description, which specifically states they are larger than normal humans and can take much more punishment before collapsing. And yet, they are no better at fighting in heavy armor than normal humans... which seems amiss. Yet indy Barbarians get an encumbrance of only 2, so there is precedent for nonmagical humans of extraordinary build having such endurance.

I'm not going to claim that changing encumbrance will make Ulm a top nation, or protect its Achilles heel - but giving a weaker nation a positive change that makes thematic sense can never hurt, IMO.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Yes, I agree that it would be a good thematic tweak, SC.

(I'd only quibble that Ulm can do quite well against Ermor even with their current fatigue.)

PvK

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

I have released version 1.01 of "Black Steel of Ulm".

Hopefully it will be available through Illwinters website soon.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
README.TXT - Changes in v1.00:

All changes are given in []

-- All units get -1 encumbrance, e.g. Inf has (2) instead of (3)
--
-- All Standard Inf is STR 11 [+1] (fits it's HP 12)
--
-- All Black Plate Inf is gold 12 [+2], ATT/DEF 11 [+1], MOR 11 [+1]
-- Black Plate Pikeneer end up with MOR 12 [+1]
--
-- General MR is 11 [+2], which works out to 12.5
-- with the inevitable drain 3 ..
-- Knight Commanders are at 12.
--
-- The troops wear either "Full Chain of Ulm",
-- "Helmet" and have strat move 2[+1], or
--
-- "Full Plate of Ulm", "Black Steel Helmet"
-- and have strat move 1.
--
-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17[-1], def -2[+3], enc 4[-1]
--
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 14[+0], def -2[+1], enc 2[-1]
-- vs. "standard full chain"
--
-- Crossbowmen prec 11 [+1]
--
-- Black Knight gcost 50 [-10] rcost 60 [-10]
-- Black Lord gcost 120 [-10] rcost 60 [-10]
-- Knights use swords for melee now.
--
-- Master Smith has Fire-1, Earth-2, Elemental-1 [+1] now
-- Base Encumbrance is 3 [-2], MR is 15 [+1]
-- HP 12 [+2], STR 13 [+2] ... they're SMITHES, after all ..
-- Cost 185 gold [+45]
--
-- Unit descriptions redone, to give some hints
-- about advantageous usage.
--
--
-- PD changed to build shielded inf and armored commander first,
-- priest and arbalests later.</pre><hr />

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Nice. I like most of the changes, although:


-- Black Plate Pikeneer end up with MOR 12 [+1]

Does anyone know why Black Plate Pikeneers have +1 morale compared to other infantry of Ulm anyway???


-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17[-1], def -2[+3], enc 4[-1]
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 14[+0], def -2[+1], enc 2[-1]
-- vs. "standard full chain"

Improvements to armor seem unnecessary to me - Ulmish armor is already one of their best points. Improved chainmail is ok, but I don't understand why Ulmish plate is given the +3 defense. If it's based on the realism argument mentioned earlier, then I don't think it makes sense to apply it without applying it to all tailored plate armor of every nation.


-- Master Smith has Fire-1, Earth-2, Elemental-1 [+1] now

I'm not sure I like the added elemental magic. It'll certainly help Ulm a lot, though, since (as you know doubt appreciate) not only does it reduce the need to find indy mages, but it means they can use forge bonus on additional items without empowerment. I do like the other Smith changes.


Did you touch the themes, or just the default theme? I guess you couldn't really handle BF Ulm with your PD change since the PD will apply of BF Ulm as well. I'd like to see Ghoul Guardians improved (higher MR to avoid banishment, reduced cost, mb Ulmish armor), and the Holy Knights get a commander version (too bad that would require a duplicate graphic though).


PvK

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

I have already made a similar mod, found earlier in this thread, in which I replaced Black Acolyte with Black Paladin, gave Ghoul Guardians better mr and Ulmish armor and gave the base theme few special commanders, foot commander with fighting stats and berserk +1, cowardly arbalestman with high precision, and weak (old) general with ldr 75, standard, move 1/5 or so and low stats.

I also gave Lord Guardian map move of 2 and supply bonus 5 or so.

The idea was to give Ulm better possibilites to use magic items and its national armies.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Arralen, you ought to sneak Endoperez's shields into the mod as well. Those look pretty sweet, and in war, looking good is half the battle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

That's to make up for pikes lacking armor piercing, like in Master of Magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Really? I think it's pretty cool. It's a bit... um, "bad" to have a forging nation incapable of forging... really, anything interesting. Replacing the fire with elemental (EE #) seems fair too, though.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

But Iron Faith has mages with E and Full random, and I think EE# and E? are too close to each other. It is hard to balance might&gt;magic nation when might&lt;magic after the more powerful spells come in.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

They're in ...

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Speaking of Black Forest, is there any way currently to modify a theme for a nation (such as its prerequisite scales) directly, as opposed to just editing some of the units? I'm a bit of a n00b at this, i looked through the mod manual but didn't see a command for it so im not even sure if its possible. I'm asking cause it seems to me that a mandatory death 1 scale for a blood nation as any patrolling you do would kill off ur pop, limiting your slave income severely.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

No, there is no way to change anything in a theme other than editing it's units.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

No, that cannot be modded. As a rule, if it isn't in the modding manual, it can't be done.

However, I have made a mod than replaces a nation (I think Abysia) with Black Forest, and a program with which you can change the replaced nation to any land nation. So you can use that mod to replace Ulm with Black Forest. I coudln't put the theme requirements on it.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

wow, nice haha, yeah i figured that was a long shot. Anyway, where can i get this shiny sounding mod of yours? It doesn't list a website for u in your profile, and im really excited by a more "vampire" themed blood nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Right now, it is an attachment. I will probably make a new version of the National Replacement series, add Mictlan and Atlantis (although neither can be used without major changes to how they play out, namely dominion spreading without blood sacrifice and auto-spawning hybrids) and fix some bugs that seem to plague that oh-so-simple Mod Converter.

EDIT: You won't get any national heroes, and will get the fortress resource bonus base Ulm gets. I don't know if you should receive the latter or not, but it can't be modded so it won't change.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

I found an exception. I was trying to put "life drain" and "3x damage to undead" and "soul slay" secondary effects on weapons by using random numbers, and I got strange secondary effects... for example...

"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Pike"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Rune Smasher"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Halberd"

I'm not sure what they would do. But there are probably lots of real effects not listed in the mod manual.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

sweet, thx, i'll definately have fun tinkering with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

That is documented. Description of #secondaryeffectalways mentions that those special effects are just weapon types. So you can wield Weak Poison, or Death Poison, or Unconsciousness (although the in-game version has a typo). However, they are meant to be used in weapons. You can also do new secondaryeffects, e.g. Flame Storm, AoE 10, dam 15, Fire, armor-piercing. And you can duplicate effects like Shatter, or Slay Magic, but not mod them.

2x, 3x and lifedrain aren't possible, but Soul Slay is. Look through Edi's weapon list.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Yay!!! Version 8.0 of the Recruitable Unit Mod will be neat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The only question is... how much would you pay for Valkyries with "Soul Slay" spears?

...and back to Ulm, sorry for side-tracking the thread!

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Something I was thinking that might be nice for ulm (and it may have been suggested before) is a good forger unit. Something like a cheap 1 earth commander with a good forge bonus. Give it a research penalty and high endurance so useless for researching or combat. I think its thematic that ulm would be able to pump out lots of armor and weapons.

Then I was thinking giving a random as well so they could forge a better variety of weapons and armors, but then you get a super hoarder. Maybe only a socery random. Blood stones might still be an issue.

Either way a random would give ulm a big sitesearching help, which might be good but maybe not alll that thematic.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Aren't you thinking of Black Faith here? They have what you want: cheap forgers (especially cheap because of lower upkeep), and a full random. That comes at the cost of a slower research, and a more expensive theme, as you cannot go all the way to Drain 3 without taking "damage". If you are lucky, you can create a research pocket though, by using a Stone Idol, hence solving Drain problems with Black Faith.

Taking Earth on the Pretender is advised however, in case all your mages agree not to have an Earth random. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Still, you will recruit lots of them, so 1/8 should happen sooner or later.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

I havn't used iron faith much, but it sounds like what I was gettin at. I suppose then that ulm needs more than just a cheap forger.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Really what Iron Faith needs is some way to make it not completely suck and waste my time by existing. When you get down to it, that's really my only problem with it.

Iron Faith is a crap team that can't win. The fact that their full random is used as an excuse for why regular Ulm can't have nice things just makes it even worse. Really, using Iron Faith as an excuse for why Ulm can't have randoms is like using Serpent Cult Pythium as an example of why Oceania shouldn't be allowed to have Nature and Water mages. If a theme is a waste of space, its existence shouldn't keep others from horning in on its junk.

Ulm gets Forge Bonuses, yes, but thanks to its absolutely dreadful site searching, it actually has less gems coming in than just about anyone. Really, you end up with about the same number of gems worth of forged items as anyone else, and less summoned monsters. And Ulm can't even natively buil a hammer, which means that anyone else who wants to forge a bunch of stuff can probably do it better than Ulm can.

A Forge-happy Atlantis is better at mass forging than Ulm is. Not "almost as good", it's better.

Ulm needs at least a random elemental pick on its Master Smiths. Then at the very least one out of four of them could make a hammer and you could ever find magic sites. Forge bonuses are by themselves meaningless unless you actually have a supply of gems.

And no, even a full random wouldn't be enough to turn Ulm into super hoarders. The best they could do at that point is have the random death master make Mound Kings (once they had found a death site or three), and then have the random Nature master make Fever Fetishes (after finding a nature site or two). One random Nature and you couldn't natively hoard anything. If you have to wait until you get Construction 6 to Clam hoard, you aren't a real clam hoarder, are you?

-Frank

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Depends how you feel about empowerment. Giving a random water pick sure helps, compared to having to empower from 0 to 2...

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Sure. But that's 30 Water gems down the drain. The Forge Bonus cuts the price on a Clam by 3 gems if you don't have a hammer, and 2 gems if you do. So best case scenario (compared to Atlantis without an Earth God, for instance), you are looking at pulling ahead after you produce 11 Clams.

...Except let's face it, you don't. You have to pay 30 Water Gems up front, and then you save 3 gems per Clam after that. Once Atlantis has paid 30 Water Gems, they actually have 3 Clams to their name, which in turn produce 3 Gems a turn.

So yeah, if you include empowerment, the forge bonus is almost enough to make up the difference late in the game. Not quite, but almost.

I'm seriously not concerned. Especially if they got a random Elemental, leaving their god as the only unit that might be able to take advantage of the Astral Pearls.

-Frank

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Every Master Smith can make Dwarven Hammers, but only after Constr. 4. Making one costs them 15+7 earth gems, only 2 more than it would cost for any other nation, AND every pair of Earth Boots and every Dwarven Hammer will be forged even cheaper.

Ulm has cheap, although not sacred, mages, and as you can't really have enough resources to pour all your gold into units you would have enough spare money to actually use Fever Fetishes on living units until you can get undead.

Ulm's native mages can't sitesearch well. That forces you to use a Rainbow mage or to suffer from less sites. However, F2A2W2S2D2N2B1 rainbow can find most sites, can forge boosters for +2F, +2W, +1S, +3N, (atleast) +1D, +1Elem (after W and F booster). With only one S more the pretender can make Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry, with one E pick and Earth Boots you can make Crystal Coin and get that boost if you don't want to take S3. From humans, Master Druid (stealthy) and Great Enchantress (cheapest S3 + one pearl). You would have to stay out of battle, but I find Fire Darts, Magma Bolts and later Blade Wind good enough.

Full random on Smiths would be powerful with such a pretender, as the Smiths could get any path to 2 or 3, and forge cheap boosters from then on. There are also quite good items with E and other path, like Shield of Valor, Crystal Coin, Fire Brand (and in Zen's, Frost Brand)...

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Note that Iron Faith has only been raised in answer to Oversway's suggestion of giving one full random to Ulm; whether this is enough or not is another matter altogether. Ulm can do well (bring your own Rainbow/SC Pretender), and I see no reason why Iron Faith would not do just as well. Those themes are simply different, and their attractions are not quite the same: regular Ulm has more design points and better Earth mages, while Iron Faith has cheaper and more varied mages, but at the cost of a weaker research (until Stone Idols come online). In this case, there is the point in having Iron Faith around, though it may not appeal to all players. That Ulm is too weak can be argued; that Iron Faith is much weaker and useless (*Nods to PvK*) seems to be a whole different matter.

I can't say I see the link between "one theme has a random, one of its few attractions over the main nation" and "one nation has mages with a combination of two paths, making it impossible for another nation to have the same mages". In the first case, that random is a major reason to play Iron Faith; in the second case, there is no connection, as some nations share the same magic (Atlantis and R'lyeh are very close, like Pythium and Conquerors of the Seas, or even Raptors and Vanheim, or Carrion Woods and C'tis).

If you do want to see a theme whose use seems dubious, Barbarian Kings is the usual example: a much weaker economy, the same mages as in the basic theme, and a slightly better cavalry (plus the Master of the Dead) does not cut it. I think it is the only theme I would never consider, unless I wanted a strong handicap; even a theme like Return of the Raptors allows to do things outside the normal scope of Caelum. It does not mean Return of the Raptors is an appealing choice, or on an equal footing with the regular nation: all it means is that Return of the Raptors offers a different nation, pretty much like Iron Faith.

I am not going to tackle such balance issues however, mostly because I do not think I am competent to deal with such matters (if I thought so, I would have already worked on a mod or in a grand project mending everything "wrong" and "broken" in Dominions).

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Do you really hve that much trouble making it to construction 4 so that you can build a single pair of earth boots?

You'd use independent mages for that anyways, as a single random doesn't allow for site searching via spells.

Construction 6 is not particularly hard to achieve, and given a 5 gem cost on clams, your rate of return is huge.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

5 gems actually, once you reach construction 6.

Or in other words, it takes 6 fewer turns to pay off, and unlike Atlantis, Ulm is guaranteed to have the gems for hammers.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Astral and Death magic do have a level one site searching spell however (Arcane Probing and the more expensive than usual Dark Knowledge, at 3 gems). Of course, you need to have some gems to begin with.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

IMHO Standard Ulm is pretty sub-par, and the resources v ("real" res bonus, and gems gained via forge bonuses) don't make up for the feeble and absolutely rigid magic of Smiths.
Ulm is *meant* to be played with a RM, and a RM is *not* an optimal choice...

My suggestions for possible solutions :
* Change Smith to either F1E (or even F1E2), + 1 random elem (with corresponding price change)
* Add some "sage" type to Ulm recruitable units - either a standard sage or stg else (for example only elem random ?)

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

with the first change would be quite an improvement.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

Do you understand that you are discussing this in thread about a mod which added random pick on Smiths? On this or a similar mod they also got E1 Apprentices.

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

I reinvented the wheel!

Re: Ulm beefed up ...
 

I suggested this, but I never got round to making a mod with it. I stand by the principal, though. Ulm could use a cheap 'worker' mage for research and simple forges.