Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Sorry... did not try to avoid the filter, was just a typo. Will watch it in the fututre.

The cold war ended. I know. But I still think that IF a WWIII breaks out, someone will *push the button*. Be it the USA (tho unlikely), France (also unlikely), the N-Koreans (more likely), the Iranians (dunno 'bout them), the Pakistanis (dunno 'bout them too), or some Evil Genius (nothing personal) on an island retreat, I believe that at least ONE or SOME nukes WILL BE USED IN WWIII... if WWIII ever happens, that is. Certainly hope it doesn't.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

You can't market culture. That's kind of the point. You might as well try to vacuum pack a live cow. All you end up with is a cheap plastic imitation of culture.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

bear in mind that there is no money to repair decaying soviet nuclear control centers.. this could pose a problem!

During the Cold War, WWIII was already averted by the narrowest of margins when a Soviet commander refused to launch a 'counterattack' despite the fact that their own new warning system showed first one than multiple nuclear missile launches from America.

As for North Korea, it would be limited to 5-6 nukes technologically if arms controls talks had not been screwed up repeatedly by Congressional funding disuptes and the Bush Administration. (The reasons for this are involved, but it involves the availability of fuels for differing types of nuclear weapons). 5-6 nukes are terrible, but not a holocaust.

As for China, they have no real interest in messing with the US; their currency is already artificially manipulated to be favorable vis a vis the Dollar, and they obtain huge benefits from foreign investment and manufacturing. Also, they own large amounts of US government debt; they'd lose a lot of money if the US tanked. Of course, people and governments are not always rational...

I would not say that the US is marketing culture, just business methodologies and, er, marketing. Standardized hotels, despite their soullessness, are a vast improvement on the random trashheaps that came before. Fast food chains really succeed because of distribution, branding, and costs-management... The people that run these things, they're businessmen; not really 'loyal' to a concept of America. A business that is not growing is a business whose stock price is stagnant; a business whose stock price is stagnant is one that will shortly find itself a new CEO. Thus, growth into world markets is not only natural but imperative for businesses that have saturated the US markets. Is Coca Cola cultural imperialism? It doesn't really seem that way. Is McDonalds or Burger King? Not really, although they are viewed as American brands. Maybe they are culture-destroying, but they arn't a culture in and of themselves! Interestingly, Jack Daniels is not viewed as an American brand (specifically; by Europeans) to nearly the extent that Budweiser is. (as specified in the article, "Don't Buy American", by Daniel Gross).

So what is American cultural imperialism? I think this really refers to the destruction of local culture to feed the American consumer market or the profits/stock price of multinational chains.

Well, okay, I will concede that Starbucks is cultural imperialism. None can deny that.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

The exact same thing happens in local American neighborhoods. Ever seen WalMart? Everywhere you go now in the States, place all look pretty much the same - the lowest common denominator prevails, and that is defined as the most efficient/profitable enterprise...it's not necessarily that American culture is bad, it's that although Capitalism is the most efficient wealth generating system we as humans have ever come up with, it also carries with it some inevitable repercussions - such as a leveling of society and economics to the most profitable, and class, taste, ethics, etc become irrelevant. That which makes money becomes the norm - whether we like it or not. Capitalism is great, free trade is great, I love NAFTA....but I am concerned about the "standardization" of society

Not sure I am making my point well....but...oh well...

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Walmart is evil and thanks to Bill Clinton, is the downfall of the American way of life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif No crap, PBS ran a NOVA show about it.

Clinton, being from the home state of Walmart, agreed to the free trade with China so that Walmart could get cheap goods. This free trade agreement put Rubbermade and many other companies out of business. Hell it was what started the recession in the first place. Before Billy Boy signed that agreement, the company I worked for was doing very well in the semi conductor market. Bill signed the agreement and over night the market collapsed. I kid you not, the bottom fell out within days of them signing that agreement and still has not recovered.

NAFTA hurt us a bit, but not as bad as free trade with China has. The Chinese swamped the world market, and the US with cheap quality low priced crap that no one could compete and voila, went under. They are not kidding when they say that the Chinese controlled Bill Clinton, they did. They paid that tratorous SOB millions and helped to get him re-elected. He ruined our economy because WalMart wanted cheap goods to sell in their stores.

Its ironic now that many Americans have to go to Walmart to buy stuff because they cannot aford to go to other stores. Ironic. (Its like feeding off of your own body, eventually you die.)

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Umm, there is no free trade agreement between the US and China...

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Yes, yes their is Kwok, and yes situation it has caused is real and not imagined Kwok. Needless to say it functions as Free Trade. Our deficate in trade to chine is huge and growing. If not for the tarrifs placed on Chines high end TV's one or more US Television manufactures would have been run out of business.

Front Line Story

This is indicitive of a lot of businesses. More and more and more and more companies going under because of "free trade" with china.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

China did recently gain status in the WTO, but there isn't a free trade agreement in place with China and the US.

And do you really think that any TVs are still made in the US? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Trade with China complete story.

If you can, watch the Front Line story on this. It is very enlightening and will explain much. Not only is the US market being hurt, but so is the Canadian economy. We are in this together whether we like it or not.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Btw, what currency does China use?

(and thnx for taking off some of the pressure in this thread.)

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

The Yuan, but it is artificially manipulated vis-a-vis the Dollar to keep trade more favorable for China.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

And in what methods is it manipulated? The planned economy is one thing, of course, but are there others?

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Got this from googling "Chinese Currency Manipulation"; just the first hit. This is congressional testimony given by a manafucturing trade group, so it's biased, but frankly I'm no expert on the issue, anyways. The effects are rather complicated (I don't understand them, either), but to summarize, many central banks keep their currency artifically weak and strengthen the dollar because this provides considerable trade benefits; there is a large incentive for money to flow out of the strong currency and into the weak currency, encouraging the massive trade deficits that currently exist. This also results in outsourcing, as not only are wages lower in real terms, but the real value of a dollar spent in China is greater.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

One, there is NO free trade with China. It is NORMALIZED trade through the WTO. The WTO is NOT a free trade organization, it is an organization that hopes, eventually, to be free trade promoting. It is primarily a dispute resolution and tariff reducing body. Do not confuse normalized trade with free trade. It used to be called "most favoured nation" status. "The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only international organization dealing with the global rules of trade between nations. Its main function is to ensure that trade flows as smoothly, predictably and freely as possible."

It is one of the greatest creations of the Post war world, in that it has had a key role in making the last fifty years the most prosperous the human race has ever known - it does this by standardizing trade relations, contracts, and lowering tariffs. The theoretical ultimate goal if the WTO is universal free trade. But it ain't there yet. Today it is primarily a dispute resolution body.

Two, to "blame" Clinton for the WTO (ie: normalizing trade with China) is not only ridiculous but completely ignores the facts for the sake of you getting in another (tiresome) jab at Clinton. Aside from the fact that it was Nixon that normalized relations with China in 1972, businessmen since 1970 have been clamouring for trade with China - and they have been overwhelmingly republican. The vote in Congress to normalize trade with China was very bipartisan and, frankly, very welcomed by the republicans in Congress. Last time I checked the Congress needed to ratify treaties - check the vote and then tell me how much you hate the WTO.

Needless to say, it's ridiculous to blame Clinton for everything wrong with the world. Separation of powers is the way the government works here. By your logic, Bush should be held accountable for everything that goes wrong while he's in office - and, oh, hey, by the way, his party controls all three branches of government. Clinton had to make do with only one. So, hey, hows Bush doing?

It makes rightists seem REAL stupid when Clinton hasn't been president for over four years and they still blame him for all the worlds' ills. It speaks to a certain amount of defensiveness and unwillingness or inability to exhibit any iota of objectivity or ability to self-criticize. Or a bleeif that they're oh so victimized by the left. It must be so terrible to be the victim all the time...but it's pretty hard to keep that facade up when the entire government is controlled by the Right now. But then again, I've never met a far rightist who could ever admit they made a mistake or were wrong about anything. Plenty of moderate republicans, of which I used to be one, could do so...But they have become pretty timid nowadays. The only one who isn't a coward is McCain. Everyone else kisses De'Lay's butt.

The hell with this. I am so tired of hearing the same broken record go on and on...there is such a thing as criticism and then there is mindless parotting of party lines without regard for facts, or for willful ignorance of facts. Propoganda is the rule of the day, both sides play into it. But as individuals we can make a choice to not be part of the problem. Don't be part of the problem.

Good bye.

Oh, here's the basic WTO pitch from their website:

The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only international organization dealing with the global rules of trade between nations. Its main function is to ensure that trade flows as smoothly, predictably and freely as possible.

The result is assurance. Consumers and producers know that they can enjoy secure supplies and greater choice of the finished products, components, raw materials and services that they use. Producers and exporters know that foreign markets will remain open to them.

The result is also a more prosperous, peaceful and accountable economic world. Virtually all decisions in the WTO are taken by consensus among all member countries and they are ratified by members' parliaments. Trade friction is channelled into the WTO's dispute settlement process where the focus is on interpreting agreements and commitments, and how to ensure that countries' trade policies conform with them. That way, the risk of disputes spilling over into political or military conflict is reduced.

By lowering trade barriers, the WTO’s system also breaks down other barriers between peoples and nations.

At the heart of the system — known as the multilateral trading system — are the WTO’s agreements, negotiated and signed by a large majority of the world’s trading nations, and ratified in their parliaments. These agreements are the legal ground-rules for international commerce. Essentially, they are contracts, guaranteeing member countries important trade rights. They also bind governments to keep their trade policies within agreed limits to everybody’s benefit.

The agreements were negotiated and signed by governments. But their purpose is to help producers of goods and services, exporters, and importers conduct their business.

The goal is to improve the welfare of the peoples of the member countries

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

You know, it's Clinton's fault Enterprise got cancelled too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (Oooo, I'm gonna regret that one, I just know it.)

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Dude! No way. That was purely a business decision. Had nothing to do with the inherent merits of the show.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I have seen a couple of incorrect statements in this thread. I was in manufacturing about 5 years ago until I was laid off and About 8 years ago they closed the last factory that made TV's here in American. So there are no TV manufactures to suffer.
Some one mention that we are the only Imperial Power I beg to Differ China Just signed aggreement with several countries to establish military bases overseas to protect their trade routes.
I disagree that we are an Imperial power yet. I think we are still in our Republic Phase and if Things continue along with the federal Government being strong we won't switch over to Imperilism for another 20 years or so. (a cataylist for Empire is to have Military Units that no one cares if they are destroyed or not GEO points out a news article on the development of Robot soldiers built right here in America new Jobs for American Manufcturing anyone?)
And what could be so wrong about an American Imperium? Most people would benifit from it. Some one mentioned being able to drink from their toilet well I bet a lot of folks would be glad if America was in charge and they could drink from their american made Toilets.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

because god knows i wouldnt want to drink out of a forign made toilet. who knows what insidious hands of lesser people might have been molesting it. dive me domestic porcilian, or give me disintary!

or something...

just kidding, of course. everyone take a deep breath, and exhale.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Geez Gozra, are you so passionate about this or something? Judging by the amount of capitals, I'd say you've got a very strong opinion about this subject...

Enterprise CANCELLED?!?!? OMFG - I'll send down a Starfleet Orbital Precision Bomber detachment to Sol III immediately!

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Grin. Well opinated maybe passionate nope. It is my typing style I put captials in were they are not suppose to be and I am too lazy to remove them.
And with global warming in full swing we will have plenty of water to flush toliets.
I find this thread is interesting.
Someone mentioned our cultral Imperlism and seemed to resent it and I guess that could be a valid viewpoint but here in America you see a great deal of cross contamination of cultral influnces. I grew up in all sorts of diffrent places here in America and I found big diffrences and got caught in them (had a tendency when asked were I was from to just give the last place I was from you don't want to tell a southerner that your from The north). Unfortunatly History shows that a successful culture is one that blots out or absorbs the other culture. I am not saying that's right I am just pointing out that that is what happens. And America is a melting pot of cultures and I bet we are still struggling to find The American Culture. The United States of America is a very complex thing made up of a lot of groups. Corporate America. Federal America. North. South. Yuppies. Generation X. Black. Latino. European. Native American. Asian. Californians. No telling how things will sort themselves out. I'm hoping for the one big happy Family thing myself, but I am not holding my breath.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Don't forget Alaskians and Hawaiiites.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

HEY KWOK grab me another beer..

Munch Munch Munch...

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

?

This isn't a restaurant! Visit the Won-Ton if you want eats and drinks, or start your own restaurant!

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Alaska was purchased from Russia, who had conquered it, and Hawaii applied for admission to the US after they had a successful internal revolution by a bunch of plantation owners after the US raised tarrifs (Hawaii's application waited five years before it was approved - plenty of time to discover whether or not the new regime was going to quickly collapse, or itself get overthrown - it didn't). Texas joined the US in a manner similar to Hawaii.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

curse those stupid californians.

oh, and dont forget panamanians and philipinos. oh wait...

sorry. im really not opinionated, i just like to stir the fire (cause im a prick).

ignore me.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

If you were referring to sending me a PM, well it never arrived... If you weren't referring to me, sorry!

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

alarikf, we all know that your a Clinton fanatic so arguing with you about Clinton really is pointless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

that was AT sending a PM to me because a stupid typo avoided the swear word filter.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Just doing my part for a greater Shrapnel Forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Nope. Clinton had a whole raft of problems and screw ups and I wouldn't vote for him today, and Bush has done a number of good things that I applaud him for. I'd like to think I'm a bit more objective about things than you imply. In fact, the heck with that. I KNOW I am a lot more objective than you.

And here's why: As always Atrocities, you make an inflammtory statement, then when you are rebutted with facts, you claim that "Oh, no need to be fanatical" or "I was just kidding" or "I don't really want to talk politics" or something like that that allows you to take the side door out of the debate and ironically sound high and mighty in so doing. Trust me - I do this for a living, and to those who actually talk and study politics it sounds clearly like you're afraid of actual substantive debates. You keep falling back on ad hominen attacks and divorcing yourself from rebutting the actual points made, instead you come up with some way out to save face. Hey, that's fine, but you can't do that and also claim your having a debate about the issues. You're not. You're just yelling fire in a crowded theater and leaving through the back while everyone responds.

Here's a thought experiment to try: when was the last time you changed your opinion about something based on a debate you had with someone on "the other side"?

Odds are, if most people are honest, they'll realize they have never changed their minds about something substantive except when it served their interests.

For me, at least two big instances come to mind immediately: I used to be fanatically pro-gun control. Conversations over the years with right wingers ahve convinced me of the merits (both philosophical and otherwise) of gun ownership. Heck, I even own a gun now.

I actually supported the Iraq war in the beginnging. So much that I was in Iraq for the first five weeks of the war as an embedded analyst with the Marines of 1st FSSG. (go guys! yay!). And, yes, I volunteered for it. Knowing what I know now, and the lies and missteps that have occurred, I realize what a mistake it was. (still very supportive of getting rid of Saddam, of course, but the other stuff we really screwed the pooch on...and for stupid and purely political reasons).

I am most likely in the process of changing my minds on school vouchers. Farm subsidies. I think we did the absolute right thing in Afghanistan (was in the mideast for that war too btw...)...I think we should have killed Saddam years ago...and, oh by the way, Clinton tried to (or did you forget that too?)...

Put your money where your mouth is. Respond to the FACTS - don't just take the side door out. If you are convinced of the rightness of your position, then you should be able to logically defend it and you should not be afraid to do so.

I'm waiting.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I *knew* there was something fishy with you Alarikf. Sorry, couldn't resist. I will now leave this thread, and bring my silliness somewhere else.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Doesn't matter. Your input is valued by me (and many others, I think) to alleviate ptrssure from this thread when it gets too high.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I always thought Clinton is the greatist Politician we ever produced.( I don't admire politicians ) It's lucky for us his flaws got in the way of putting his mark on American society forever.

I have read some about the Initial stages of the Iraq war And understanding what I do it was obvious that
A. reporters are really ignorant about military matters
B. The military carried out it's orders
C. The Politicians were prepared for disaster and not for success
D. I am convinced that the Press is so focused on selling papers that The Truth is just another tool to be used or not used
E. I know that most people in the United States are ignorant of the Constitution and only have a hazy understanding of Rights and Responsiablities they have.
F.We are allowing Corporate America to define America
G.We are headed toward serious consequences
H.This is one of the most Interesting times in History.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I think I totally agree with every one of your points here.....I would say that the plans could have been a bit better for the Phase IV stuff, of course...but that was a political not as much a military decision.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Hey, sorry if I sound harsh, but frankly making controversial and inflammatory political statements, and then dodging any real debate, is emblematic of the entire problem the US faces today. Watch the talking heads on CNN, Fox, or whatever. People just shout their points, and the facts are lost while they scream at each other.

This country's political state is pretty cruddy right now largely because no one actually listens any more, instead we use rhetoric and insults and volume to score points. This approach, whether in a listserv, a public forum, or on the news, is part of the problem.

Don't be part of the problem. Listen, deal in facts, rebut logically, and be willing to change your mind. I am convinced that that is one of the marks of a mature polity and civilization. When we lose the ability to look at and discuss facts then we might as well call an end to the experiment that is Democracy.

With that in mind, I call's them like I sees them. Think globally, act locally, and all that. I'm not just gonna sit by and watch the political process get murdered any more than it already has. And one of the places where I can make this effort is here. So, yes, I will call people out when they are part of the problem. Sorry if it offends, but to do otherwise would be to condone to the slowly murder of the political process. And, yes, I too am guilty of this. We all are. But we are sentient human beings who can change our minds and our behavior.

Thanks,
Alarik

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

[I will go to english dictionnary for meaning of "interesting"]
A. Agree. Even if I am a pacifist it's too obvious
B. Agree.
C. Can be discuss but I don't think it would have change anything.
D. Yes. Nobody is interested by truth ; military lie to have an easier task ; newspaper lies to make money ; politician lie to be reelected.
E. Sadly, yes.
F. Replace "america" by "world". I can't find a country where it's false.
G. Obvious !
H. I remember that in some culture it's a curse...

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I think he was refering to Alneyan, who was just being a wisenhiemer, and not really political.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Doh! I feel stupid. Sorry! Removing foot from mouth now.

Guess I'm wound a bit tight, eh?

heh.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I would just like to say that if we want to see an end to the actions the US takes, it's actually simpler than you think. It's called speaking up.

During the rise of Hitler, he began instating programs during the time of '35-'36 (sorry I don't remember specifics right now) and the people, including the international community said F-U dude, no way. The man caved. So if HITLER can cave under international pressure, so can GW. I call my Congressman whenever something goes on I don't like, but I'm only one voice. Get everyone else to do it and we'll have the power back where it belongs.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Actually, I think this message was aimed at Atrocities: the reply field was Atrocities and not Alneyan, while Atrocities was not the last poster at the time of this message (so it was not a quick reply thing). I feel that the message fits in best with Atrocities as well, mainly because of the "Doesn't matter" part.

But I guess it could have been aimed at myself too. Or perhaps not. Still, I stick with my point that Alarikf should not be allowed to have several minds, among other things.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Hey! I'm gonna call the the society for the protection of multiple-brained humanoids!

Besides, I need more than one brain to even survive in SE4 games where I'm fighting you.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I have observed that people in general have a problem with facts. If it does not support their world view then apparently it is not a correct fact. I find that it is very difficult to have a debate and convince someone that they are wrong or maybe changing their world view might be a correct thing to do. Voices advocating reason are few and far between and the ability to change your mind based on verifiable facts is a talent that is hard to find. We have slowly developed a society that stands on their rights and refuses their responsibilities and has a hard time understanding their duties. I think this situation is a product of more people living in cities and organized for group think rather than Independent style of living out in the country.
As to current events President Bush has outlined a stragety that can work against global terrorism but since we are unable by ourselves to make it work mostly what will happen is the law of unintended consequences. And liberal and conservative elements will take advantage to tweak things their own way with most of us in the middle. I think the best thing to do now is find a place to watch from the sidelines and hope to figure the best time to jump in and make a difference. Maybe the right difference.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Wily Alarikf! Do not cross me, and you will not need to fight me; nonetheless, feel free to spread the word about my extraordinaire cunning and unparalleled genius. If that can scare off would-be enemies, it will be one less war to fight, and wars not fought are wars we won.

Since you are planning on fighting you, I also forbid you to ever change your minds: changing schemes are really not called for. I feel especially silly for giving you a small tip about your designs in that game, just when you were planning to declare war on me. At least, I did not tell you *too much*, but still, I shouldn't be so talkative. And speaking of not being talkative, I will stop digressing here.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I WAS meaning Alneyan. So far, whenever the pressure in this thread got too high, he put in a "light" post which alleviated much of the pressure and sometimes even changed the entire course of the conversation/discussion.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

You’re a feisty one aren’t you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I sent you a PM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

S'all good man. See my PM.

Alarik

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

I do believe there is corporate American Imperialism but the system that created it is in a down swing. I hope. I will be very disappointed when we all find out that ethics and morality in corporations is not cleaned up. It certainly looks like that won't happen.