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Sooo, Tim... When's the IPO? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

As for the publisher jump, it of course could be a mixed blessing. It sounds like Aaron will be leveraging a bit of SF's resources to get more mainstream advertising and reviews, as well as helping out with translations and such. It's much easier and better to have a professional translator make a non-english version of a game, both the internal description bits and the manuals and such. That opens up the market quite a bit.

The mainstream part is what worries me. The majority of gamers I know in person prefer console games, and the PC games they play are either A) a shoot-'em-up, or B) the Sims, or C) Snood. I still don't get the Snood crowd. Regardless, I have no idea if SEV will fit into the mainstream. I hope it will.

Also, kudos to the wonderful Shrapnel people! Keeping the forums goes beyond anything expected from customer service. Now you said something about selling off existing stocks of SEIV and SE:Starfury... You all are still the publisher for those games, right? (and Dungeon Odyssey?) You'll still be selling those, right? I could understand not ordering any more copies of SEIV once SEV comes out, since people will naturally go with the newest version, but SE:SF should still have some life in it, I think.

/me needs to go to the Shrapnel Store and make some purchaces soon...

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JPG is not a good format. It loses too much color information (even with those algorithms used by David Gervais...). PNG is far, far superior, and has no royalty fees involved to boot.

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Truth be told, both SEIV and Starfury were released before they were really ready to be released... Both of them had big bugs lurking about and that were not yet fixed, as well as some lacking features. Certainly, they were patched within a few months, but still...

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What does this have to do with anything?

Edit: Why did you have to do that?

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Doesn't SE3 still sell copies?

I would expect that the SE4 and SF games will still sell after SE5 has had its 15 minutes of retail fame.
Trying to sell them while SE5 is breaking into the market is probably not a good idea, of course, but it shouldn't kill the market.
There is bound to be a surge of people interested in the whole series.

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Any additional SE4 copies would probably have to be made by Strategy first, unless MM made a deal with Shrapnel to continue production.

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SE4 has nothing to do with S1st.
Why would they make copies?

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IMHO, I think we all need to just sit back, take a deep breath or two, (maybe a brewski to help drown any sorrows) and look at the total picture. This is a business, and Aaron, like any other buisness person, looks ahead to further his growth as well as income. He apparently wants to try something new and look into other possible markets. Thats business. I/we/whomever, apparantly are upset which is normal reaction. However, Aaron has been with Shrapnel and all of us for a long time and I don't think he would turn out a half baked game. If he did, I'm sure most of us would not buy it, further, I would bet that some of us would say so in other forums as well. Therefore, Aaron has everything to gain by putting out another quality product and everything to lose if he doesn't. I know its hard for us addicted rapid fans to make/see a change, but, lets wait and see how the game turns out. After all, we'll still be here and Aaron knows where to find us and Shrapnel. I wish him the best of luck, and still hope he drops in on the forum and in the IRC SE4 chat room once in awhile. Life goes on and so will Space Empires (hopefully). Thanks to the great people at Shrapnel, we will still have a SEV forum here for us to use/talk/complain/gripe/mod/etc. What other company have you ever seen who would post a forum on a competitors game? None that I know of. Tks Shrapnel we appreciate it. The real question is do we combine the SEV and SEIV forums into l or keep them seperate? There are pros and cons for both. We have time to decide and let Shrapnel know. Oh well, my 2 cents, I'm going to go have a brewski or two to enrich my depression over this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

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Er... yes, I think I used the wrong tense (English syntax error in line 2... er, I meant "it isn't my native language, sorry"). What I meant was that I thought that SEIV was the best seller in 2001 or 2002. Anyway, I suppose the overall sales total for 2000-2005 is good if it managed to stay in the top 3 for 4 years.

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They won't. I don't know for sure, but given Shrapnel's statement I think production rights went with MM. I.e. Shrapnel doesn't have the right to make any more SE4/SF copies.

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Hi Will:

Again, some misinformation control. Shrapnel Games had SEIV reviewed by every mainstream print and web publication in both the US and Europe, receiving over a dozen industry awards.

As to SF's resources, they are controlled by the bankruptcy courts.

I believe everyone here feels that way.

We would miss you guys if you left, so we hope you stay here. These forums are yours.

Until current stocks are depleted. Coming from a development, not publishing background, I do not believe in owning rights to our developers games. The rights stay with the developer after the contract period expires. Aaron came to us after we declined an offer to do a catalog exchange with Strategy First and asked us not to print any more Starfury or SEIV. We, of course, agreed. We would have taken Dungeon Odyssey out of print later this year anyway, so doing it a bit earlier just makes the break with Malfador easier.

We will, of course, still support both Space Empires products and Dungeon Odyssey through customer service and here through the forums, even after the inventories are depleted.

I wouldn't take too long. Projections are for SEIV to sell out in 2 weeks or so, and Starfury a bit longer.

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To vaguely distract people...

This is a fascinating exploration of loyalties. We have the fans to the game and developer and the fans to the publisher. These connections create a conflict with people choseing sides (loyalties require sides). This is an emotional reaction as people feel threatened, both as Space Empire gamers and as supporters of the protagonists. We also have loyalties from Aaraon and MM to Shrapnel and her people. The switch is being felt like an act of treason to some or growing up and moving on for others.

Our emotions, and loyalty being one of those, helps to direct social action - what we do in response to a given problem/issue/situation. The beauty of emotion is that it does not have to be rational, considered or make 'sense' (what is sense anyway?). Emotion orientes us to how we should feel and act.

So, what am I ranting about? What has happened here will create an emotional response for many - hence the posts and emotional tone that is expressed. Hurrah for that. But try to understand that with competing loyalties there is usually only irreconcilable differences of view. One person's traitor is another's saviour.

From my postion, I only see gain, we will get more players for SEV (and if it flops then for SEIV), we get to keep the fine forum here and thus be kept up to date with other great niche games from Shrapnel. I can see how Shrapnel might be a little peeved, but I also see that MM want to try and grow in a different market.

Thus ends the lecture... now I might go and harrass my actual students.

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That's about what I expected, but what the heck is a catalog exchange?

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Stocks will be depleated in in two weeks or so.....wow am I ever glad I bought when I did, took over a month to get it but well worth the wait!

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Hi Phoenix-D.

A catolog exchange is where two publishers will put each others product catalogs into their games. It can be appealing as it brings recognition for your products to the other publisher's fan base.

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No doubt. We will miss SEIV.

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Sorry, didn't mean that as a slight to Shrapnel. I just meant that many of the print reviewers shove niche and independant game publishers into small sections of the magazine. With a retail publisher, I think it might be easier to get a proper (at least full page) review. If Shrapnel has managed that, I was not aware, and that would definitely be good news.

Anyway, just ordered Starfury and Gold... I was going to throw in Dominions as well, but I think it's bad enough that I'll be failing the rest of the semester now that I have those two games, I don't need to add a third and $50 to that at the same time. Besides, DomIII is coming out Soon(tm), right?

And I'm assuming that's a "No Comment" on the IPO, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

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To echo the sentiments of some other people:

A: Calm down, wait and see. We can all predict the possible possibilities, but life has a strange way of defying prediction.
B: Did anyone else notice the "over 1 million demo downloads" for SEIV!??! Thats huge! I wonder what percentage of that actually bought the game.
C: I'm in agony! Can I afford to buy another copy on the budget of a 17 year old? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

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Well, I'm surprised. But I’m also sure that Mr. Hall is doing what he thinks is best for his business. After all, I’m quite sure that he does this for money, not the grief we tend to lay on him. And I wish him the best of success with his release of SE5.

As to the company he chose, only time will tell. But past history would say “Don’t spend the money till the check clears the bank.” We can only hope that the game is a big hit and everyone gets rich http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

edit: fixed typos.

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Hi Will:

No offense taken. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thank you for supporting us. That will help Aaron with development costs. Enjoy!

This is a great game. My favorite. Maybe after the semester is over... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Late 4th quarter of this year.

Soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

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Well, I'm going to buy SEV when it comes out in stores later this year.
That's good, I couldn't stop laughing! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

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Thank you. Comments like that just make my day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Thanks Tim and Malfador for the posts and the information.

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Thank you very much everyone who posted here. Thank you Aaron for creating such a marvelous game as SEIV. Thank you Shrapnel for publishing it and for this forum. And also thank you Shrapnel for retaining this forum and customer services when Malfador leaves.

And Aaron, good luck with S1st.

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Why thank you, I certainly am doing what I think is best for...oh wait...you mean the other Mr. Hall! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I always knew having the same last name as the developer of SE series would cause me problems.

Hmmm...maybe we are related...nah, I highly doubt it as I have no family from CA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

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Yeah, it definitely seems like win-win for the fans. I think it's safe to say that we all seem to love BOTH the forums and the game, and I would like to heartily thank Shrapnel for being as cool about this as they are being as well as Aaron for making an outstanding game. And, I think it makes good sense business-wise and game-wise for Aaron to go the route he thinks will gain SE4/5 the greatest distribution/publicity/fan base. Kudos to shrapnel, kudos to Aaron, and I intend now to go buy Dom II to show my support...(and I am going to buy another copy of SE4, since, if stocks really are going bye-bye I want a backup or one to give to a friend...)

Off MY soapbox...

Thanks,

Alarik

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What? You are not one and the same???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

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Ya, I heard of it, even bought a copy. I was not impressed! I still have an account, and IMHO the game sucked. But then my opinion could be biased because of the Space Empires series.

Personally, I think that their forum system was a PITA. And I doubt that they are in any way prepared for the kind of fan support that Space Empires will bring with it. I think we will be in for quite an adjustment.

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I kinda suspected this for a while now...
Hopefully everything will work out.

My question is when we can expect SF to make an announcement...

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You're right. GalCiv SUX big time. I've never even visited the forums or even bought the full game, just played the demo..... lasted lass than ~30 minutes on my HD. A record low. It was just too fricking unclear. Research was weird, space travel didn't feel right, systems weren't used well, and that's about all I can remember from the single game I started (but never finished) before deinstalling the program.

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As I recall, it was a cross between a first person shooter and a treasure hunt, with a tiny little bit of 4X thrown in just to confuse things. And lets not forget the stupid RP stuff. Not my kind of game at all.

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I never even got AROUND to combat..... played only 10 or 20 short turns or so before quitting and deinstalling.

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Wow, this discussion finally got me out of lurking after 2 years. Let me contribute some facts that I think are still missing.

About Stratey First: As has already been said, they are controlled by the bankruptcy courts, however they have been bought by Silverstar Holdings recently and thus have a chance to get back on their feet now. However, if Aaron's decision was based on GalCiv's success (as Tim Brooks has hinted), then he really should have asked GalCiv's developers about their experiences with SF first. Actually, SF had very little to do with GalCivs success, which was mostly fueled by the MoO3 disaster, a GalCiv flyer inside the MoO3 box, Brad Wardell's publicity, and word of mouth spreading fast. Many games stores would not have ordered GalCiv from Strat First if their customers, on returning MoO3, hadn't asked them for it (because they had heard about the game from other sources). So Strat First's contribution to GalCiv's success was basically to provide the game for a market that already wanted it. The chances that this special situation can be repeated for Space Empires V are very slim.

Also, Strategy First did *not* pay the developers of GalCiv any royalties. There are also many other developers around the world who still wait to see a single dollar of their royalties from Strat First. Personally, I would be very careful to get into the business with them - not only because they went bankrupt once (this can happen, sometimes even when you *did* everything right), but because of their attitude to their developers during this period. Some developers still complain that they have not been warned about the problems and that they have plainly been lied to by Strat First officials. I know that people can learn from their mistakes and I honestly don't know whether the same people are still involved in SF's management, but based on their previous record I'd really be careful.

That said, I think that Aaron really *does* have a chance to strike (or have struck) a good deal with Strat First. They must be rather desperately trying to rebuild their reputation among the customers (many of whom are disappointed by Strat First because of games which have not been properly patched or finished due to developers revoking their contracts after receiving no money from SF). Enlisting the developer of a successful, established 4x sci-fi strategy series might be just what SF needs now. This should give (have given) Aaron a lot of leverage in the discussions with them, and I hope he used that.

Let's hope for the best.

Also, as a response to the last posts above: I think there's really no need for bashing GalCiv here, as there's really next to no connection between GalCiv and Strat First despite the fact that Strat First distributed the game into retail (not via digital download, this was done by Stardock themselves) and refused to pay royalties. Also, I think that Space Empires and GalCiv are both very good examples of the 4x genre, and they complement each other nicely because they focus on different aspects. Personally, I'm glad we have both games.

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I think Aaron would be better off seeking out Stardock and its TotalGaming.net subscription service to distribute the game. Strategy First is not very stable at all. This company that publishes SEIV and other titles is not very good at all. Never sold in stores or downloadable makes it very costly for anyone to get it in other countries. A South Africa mate of mine has to pay 65.00 to get SEIV.

This bashing Galciv is silly, two entirely different games at least on how they look and play. I LOVE both games and I find any negative comments toward Galciv or the GREAT Company who produced it is damn right stupid. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Both games are outstanding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sharpnel Games is not a very good company at all as many of their games are not, well popular. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif No offense to this fine site..

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Well your entitled to your opinion, most of our games our multi award winning games in the industry and sell very well.

As far as the pricing issue, we did have some issues with pricing overseas when SE:IV first came out but those have long since been resolved. You can get it shipped in 3-7 days for 4.80 in shipping costs. We also have retail and mail order alternatives for many countries. In fact we have the largest non traditional retail distribution network of any online publisher.

Just wanted to set the record straight on that.

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you just need to start selling the game in canadian dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Well, we could always pay someone to develop a MoO4 which is even worse than MoO3 (not sure if that is really possible, making something worse than MoO3, that is...)

I'm still just hoping, as the Marine going to Iraq in June, that SE5 is released before then!

Dave

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Hello then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Welcome to the forum. Perhaps you would care to elaborate on you 1st post defense of GC? What you call bashing, I call a waste of my money.

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Now this might be a bit ignorant, but cant he use both ?
(Shrapnel online, strategy first offline)

Those two markets are so far apart,

And imho yes, SE5 will not sell as much retail, ppls will see the screens and the not too flashy graphics and wont buy it.
One biiig suggestion for aron, if you go retail, make sure to include a VERY VERY GOOD tutorial, otherwise ppls will get it, open box, play it, dont get what the hell is going on and just quit.

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Yeah, a good tutorial is absolutely vital for the retail market I beleive. I confess, I'm one of those typical dorks who assumes that the game will spoonfeed me as soon as I start it up the first time, and when I did that with SE4 the first time I admit to being lost for a while - until I actually read the manual and did the tutorial - and by that point you've probably already lost a fair percentage of the people....

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I want to add my thanks to Shrapnel for their amazing offer not only to allow the SEIV forum to continue, but to allow SEV to be represented here as well. It's incredibly generous of them, and demonstrates a high regard for their customers. Personally, it makes it more likely that I'll purchase a Shrapnel game in which I'm only marginally interested, simply as an expression of support for such a dedicated company.

I'm disappointed that Malfador decided to go elsewhere, but I wish them no ill. I may even buy SEV, although it won't be an "automatic" purchase as it would have been previously. We'll see.

p.s. "To each his own," but I like GalCiv also. It's a different approach to 4X, but we don't need a bunch of SE clones--each game is good at what it does. I agree, however, that, if GalCiv's success played a major role in luring Malfador to Strategy First, they may be seriously disappointed. It's my impression that the impetus behind GalCiv's success was not due to Strategy First, but to the community of GalCiv fans, originating in GalCiv's OS2 days and incremented through the GalCiv forums where you could purchase the beta and participate in the development of the game--receiving a copy of the finished product when it appeared. That's what drew me in, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I don't know if Malfador is prepared to make that kind of effort--tracking the demands/suggestions of a huge number of ad hoc beta-testers and deciding what should be incorporated into the game.

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Why not? MM has had betas for all of their games since at least SEIV. Not sure about SEIII... The SEV beta will be starting in under a month!

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From a legal point of view, it could work I guess, if the right partnership deals were made. But realistically, probably not.

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OK, I have read what everyone has said and have owned and still own registered copies of every SE version since SE II and like everyone else here have some concerns.

1. I am concerned that this will be mutilated by Strat 1st seeking to make it more commercial, I dont like them or the games they have published in the past.

2. I am concerned with this going mainstream that the series will lose its way in the attempt to garner broader support.

Point blank if either of those two things happen I will move on (while still playing my copies of SEIV).

Having said that I am re-assured that Aaron is still in control. I also want to express that aside from some MMORPGs, anymore my games are bought from Shrapnel and other similar online publishers. I don't buy retail anymore.

Shrapnel,

Keep up the good work, I will keep checking the site for more games. You already sold me on Dom2 and I have tried others as well. Hope to see more from you!.


Rasorow

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There was a beta test team for SE3, However all of those folks have moved on by now.

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Hmm, I'd like to, but as I said, this thread isn't really the place for a discussion about the quality of GalCiv. This thread deals with Aaron's decision to choose Strat First as his distributor for Space Empires V, and neither Aaron nor Strat First had anything to do with the quality of GalCiv.

So I hold myself off from going into details here, and instead just state that both games have many strengths as well as some weaknesses, and I'm very glad that we have them both. Even better, they continue to thrive and develop - Space Empires V will be out this year, and the public beta of GalCiv 2 will start this month. What more can we wish for? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If you're interested in a more thorough comparison of the two games, just pm me, or perhaps point me to another thread where this doesn't feel off-topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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I jsut cross my mind that shrapnel most likely does contracts game-by-game, so in reality there is a chance future SE games could return to Shrapnel

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Ah, but does Strategy First do so? If the contract says SF has exclusive rights to publish the next five titles of the series, then it doesn't matter if Shrapnel does contracts per-game; Strategy First gets SEV, SEVI, SEVII, SEVIII, and SEIX. Only after all that can MM and Shrapnel make the triumphant return with SEX.

Ok, ok, I just had to do it. Ignore this entire post, I only made it for the punchline (such as it is).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif