Re: OT: New PC!
 

With the components you have listed, you don't need anywhere near 600 or 680W of power. AMD lists your processor as 110W, your video card is probably in the 60-110W range, hard drive peak power is usually <50W, and I would imagine it's the same for optical disc drives. With what you have, 500W would be more than enough to power it, while allowing you to expand to more drives in the future. But, unless you're powering something like a RAID-5 array of 20 drives, you don't need anywhere near the 680W.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Agreed, but considering the 680W is priced about the same as a 500, why not? After all, an extra €10 for an extra 180W seems pretty good to me, considering I'm paying an extra €15 for my DVD drive because the cheaper site doesn't have it in a nice colour. Beige?! Sooo 1990s.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Well, that's a good enough reason... besides, you never know when you want to build a cappuccino machine into your case...

Something that I didn't see on your list, though, is a UPS. Since you're investing a lot in this already, it would be a good idea to invest a little bit more so it doesn't go up in a poof of magic smoke if you're hit with a power surge. I got one connected to my monitor and computer, and so far (in 6 months) it's protected from noise 4 times, brown outs twice, and black outs 5 times (they were working on the power around my building a lot a few months back).

Also, for performance, you might want to get a second, smaller/faster hard drive for your system partition. Windows likes to send stuff to the swap file even if you have loads of free RAM still, so having a different drive than the one where all your apps are stored speeds things up a bit more.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

I still don't think you should buy a Creative card... M-Audio Revolution 7.1 and Revolution 5.1 are better quality cards.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Yeah, but I like Creative. They've always been good to me, though I know I might be in a minority there.
Well, that & the fact that the only site I've found that'll deliver to ROI that stocks M-Audio cards wants about €30 more for em clinches the deal in my mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif


Edit: Will, thanks for the UPS reminder. Anyone have any suggestions, since I've got pretty much no knowledge in this department, but give the state of the Irish electricity grid, I probably should. I've been poking around and UPSs seem to fall into two broad categories: Online & Offline. Anyone know what the difference is?

Re: OT: New PC!
 

My 'thought' is not about any particular part you have selected but about a new wrinkle in the whole concept of 'build it yourself' PCs. Counterfeiting is not just for software anymore:

PCWorld article on fakes

More and more hardware is also being counterfeited. Batteries are one of the worst products for this. Consumer electronics and computer parts are also 'growth areas' for this problem. Maybe you won't find fake CPUs or video cards (yet) since these are very complex and difficult to make, but fake memory sticks, fake hard drives, and other relatively simple parts are getting fairly common. You'd best be very careful in your choice of suppliers for your parts.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Extra wattage is a good idea since a power supply is not intended to be used at max capacity most of the time. At less than full power it runs cooler and lasts longer, and the more capacity you have the more 'safety margin' you have for adding things to your machine later.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Yes, a UPS is a very, very good thing to have! A hard crash caused by power failure can make an awful mess of a hard drive. The big names in UPSes for personal systems are APC and Tripp Lite last I recall. Just go to a site like New Egg and go to the UPS section and browse. I am using a Tripp Lite unit that I bought fully 10 years ago. It has saved me from many glitches and I only just had to replace the batteries a few months ago. But since my current unit is good enough, I'm not up on what's available right now.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Thanks! Them UPS's aren't the cheapest of things, but I suppose if I'm dropping eur3000+ for the new system, an extra 100 or so won't make that much of a difference. And I won't have to worry about my lovely new system being fried by an unpleasant power spike, either. I'm looking at this one: APC UPS, because it seems to be nice and basic. I don't want to spend a load of money on fancy features I'll never use.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

420 VA looks kinda scrawny for the machine you are building. The VA (volt amps) rating is supposed to be greater than the power draw of your system. If not, it will simply overload and shut down when the power fails. You'll get a slightly noisier crash than if you had no UPS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If you are using an LCD instead of a CRT monitor that helps, but a 680 watt power supply demands a similar VA rating. 'Volt amps' are basically equivalent to watts, so you want at least a 680 VA UPS. A 750 is probably a good idea.

Hey, I'm using an 850 VA UPS to run a computer with an 'average' 250 watt power supply and a 19" CRT monitor (it draws a maximum of about 240 watts). Yes, it's much more than 'absolutely necessary'. That just means it lasts longer when the power goes out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Yes, it's more expensive than the cheapest solution, but you definitely get what you pay for in backup battery power. You might want to go for a 1000 VA UPS -- 1 kw!

Re: OT: New PC!
 

If you go to a site like NewEgg, they will tell you the VA rating, and the wattage it is designed for. I have an APC BE725BB, which is a 725VA, 450W UPS (I have a 450W PSU). It came with a little monitor utility that lets you set timers when on the backup, so you can have your computer automatically shut down after some time, or hibernate.

Plus, you can use it for general purpose stuff. During the big blackout in LA this fall, I took it down to the lobby, and plugged the radio we have down there into it to figure out what happened (some dude from PG&E cut a wire he wasn't supposed to, and the entire basin got its power cut).

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Ouch. Wish I had that much cash lying around to spend on upgrading my system!

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Wish I had that much cash lying around! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: New PC!
 

The improved audio quality is well worth the €30, I think.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

According to references I have, a 'volt-ampere' is one volt at one amp, and so equivalent to one watt. Therefore, the VA rating should be exactly the same as the wattage it can support. I wonder what they are really describing if they don't rate the VA and watts as the same?

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Well, this one CyberPower Office Tower 750VA UPS Line Interactive RS-232 seems to be the most affordable UPS that could handle my 680W PSU. I don't know much about CyberPower, does anyone know what sort of name they have?

Re: OT: New PC!
 

From bottom of:

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/electricity.asp

The "VA" rating is not what you need to be so concerned with, but rather the direct wattage rating. VA is more concerned with charge capacity (in a roundabout way), whereas W measure is maximum instantaneous power draw from the battery. Of course, higher VA means longer operation after power loss. VA vs. W ratings are used in this way very commonly for electric devices.

Cyber Power's site lists all the information for their UPSes, unlike that store site AZ linked to.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Ouch...

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/S...NQYF_R0_EN.pdf

It looks like the actual wattage is closer to 60 percent of the VA. That means my 850 VA UPS is only 'adequate' for my load, and AgentZero is in fact going to need a 1000 VA or larger UPS!

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Good grief. A 1000VA UPS starts at close to eur400. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the whole VA-Watts thing is basically a matter of how long the unit can last in the event of power loss, right? Or does it affect something else as well?
In the seven years I've been living in Dublin, there's only been one blackout I know of, but it was localized and didn't affect me. So I'm not too worries about blackouts, so much as power surges and the like. Given that, I'm wondering if I'd be better off buying just a surge protector, since the likliehood of a blackout is very low.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Surge protector should provide you the hardware protection that you need, but you will of course not have the power backup. Not a large issue in my opinion, especially since the UPS is so expensive. Go with the surge protector.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

A little bit more will get you a 'line conditioner' -- a surge protector plus a transformer that steps low voltage up a little bit. This additional protection is a good thing to have. Utilities also have 'drops' in voltage as well as surges. This is included in a UPS these days, so you're actually getting three different systems in a UPS: surge protection, low voltage protection, and blackout protection.

You might also try searching for used equipment. After all, it's not like a UPS built now is dramatically better than a UPS built 5 years ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I know you can buy reconditioned UPSes from used computer dealers here in the US. Dunno about Ireland or the EU in general (voltage is standardized throughout the EU, right?)

http://www.usedcomputer.com/classifi...Classified.asp

http://www.refurbdepot.com/index.cfm

Re: OT: New PC!
 

The amount of total charge is only the VA rating. W rating is how much power it delivers an a time, so you need a big, beefy one that can deliver 600W or whatever the powe drain was. This does not require a 1000 VA UPS, but rather a 600W one. Maybe 650W to be safe and cover the monitor.

I see absolutely no hard correlation between W and VA ratings on Cyber Power's UPSes. Some are VA = 2 W, some are VA = 1.4 W, etc.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

It figures that the last thing I'd think of would be the most complicated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif On an unrelated note, does anyone know of a good source for hardware release dates? I've heard nVidia's next generation video cards are due out in Feb, and I'm thinking of holding off on my purchase until they do, to take advantage of the price drop on the ones I want.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Have a question for those who might know. I recently added another 1GB of RAM to my system, bringing it up to 2GB (4 x 512MB). All the RAM has clock speeds of 400 MHz, and yet they're running at 333. Anyone know why, or if I can boost it up to the supported clock speed?

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Is every chip of RAM clocked at 400 MHz? All RAM must run at the same frequency, so one slower chip brings it all down. Does the motherboard actually support clock rates of 400 MHz? If so, is there any driver patch or BIOS update about buggy RAM support for the motherboard on it's manufacturer's web site?

Re: OT: New PC!
 

THAT is the question. And do you have the BIOS settings adjusted correctly?

(Hey Fyron, check your PMs...)

TT

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Ram speed is a function of the BIOS. Your board may or may not allow you to set the buss to 400MHz (200x2MHz)

Also, some AMD systems will slow the buss to 333MHs if more than a gig of ram is installed.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

If the cards are on time and in quantity, then you’ll see prices on older cards fall in late March or early April. But don’t hold your breath. The 7800/512’s are still little more than vapor and they have been out for months.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

The system supports speeds of 400Mhz, since when I had only 1 Gig of RAM, it was running at 400. However, since I do have an AMD system, I'd think the most likely possibility is the one Thermo mentioned, the system slowing it down with there being 2 Gigs installed. I'm not sure WHY it would do this though...

Will also check BIOS settings later.

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: New PC!
 

That crunch you just heard was the sound of me biting the bullet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif The idea of waiting until Mar/Apr for my new system is not appealing, especially since my current one is in need of a format/re-install that I don't really want to do

Re: OT: New PC!
 

When you have twice as much RAM, you have twice as many addresses to access, which increases the amount of time every RAM access operation takes to perform. But the difference in performance between 400 MHz clock and 333 MHz clock for RAM is pretty trivial anyways...

Re: OT: New PC!
 

I have a quick question:

When your talking about RAM, what RAM goes with what CPU? I have noticed that there is a lot of differant RAM types with differant FSB speeds and what not and it is quite confusing to try and figure out.

Any help is appreciated.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Its more what RAM goes with what motherboard than CPU. It is entirely dependent on the motherboard specs.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Fyron hit it on the head. The board determines the memory type and speed. Most boards will support several speeds and adjust the buss automatically. Some boards will allow you to set the voltage and buss speed above the specs for the installed ram.

SDRAM fits lots of older systems regardless of CPU.
DDR fits lots of currant systems regardless of CPU.
DDR II fits Intel only.
RDRAM fits Intel only.

All of the types come in standard, EEC and Registered EEC. EEC is for high end workstations and servers. Registered EEC is for high end servers and required for some AMD CPU’s.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Right. Still no PC since the bank's dragging it's feet on releasing my money... When I got my money in August, I knew I wouldn't be buying a new PC until around this time, so I went to the bank & asked them to put it in a high interest account for six months so I'd have a bit more cash when it came to buying time. Now I find out they negelected to tell me that if the money's not in the account for at least 12 months, I've got to pay tax on it, so I'll end up with less than I put in. So, I've got to a different bank & applied for a loan with 6 months interest free. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Anyway, I've made a few small changes, but this is basically what I'm going for once the money comes through. Any last minute suggestions, comments or critisms are, as usual, welcomed.


Processor: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ 2.2GHz Socket 939
Motherboard: DFI LANPARTY UT RDX200
RAM: Corsair TWINX2048-3200
Hard Drive 1: Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB SATA2 16MB 7200RPM
Hard Drive 2: Western Digital Caviar SE 80GB 800JD SATA 8MB Cache 7200RPM
Graphics Card: Sapphire ATI Radeon X1900 XT-X 512MB
Sound Card: Creative SB X-Fi Platinum PCI, Retail
Monitor: Samsung 19" LCD Syncmaster 930BF TCO-99 Monitor, DVI-D, D-sub, 4ms
Speakers: Logitech Z-5450 Speakerset 5.1 THX
Keyboard: Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard
Mouse: Razer Diamondback Plasma
CPU Cooling: Zalman CNPS9500-LED Aero Flower CPU Cooler
Case: Thermaltake Kandalf Black
Power Supply: Thermaltake PurePower 680W
DVD Drive: Plextor PX-716AL DVD RW

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Boo ATI graphics card! Nvidia!

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Is Nvidia better than ATI? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Not necessarily. Renegade 13 might be one of those in-forum marketing guys since Nvidia has been known to use such methods.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

I've always had good results with nvidia.

ati might be better, but I've got no reason to risk a switch.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Unless you need high end 3d gaming support in Linux (ATI Linux drivers are terrible), neither one is better than the other. Whatever the best card is, the competitor will beat it in 3 months... What you should look for is performance / $, rather than brand loyalty.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Yep, that's exactly it! You caught me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif I get $10 per positive Nvidia comment that may sway someone's opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif But now that you've blown my cover...I'm screwed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

The only reason for my comment was personal preference. Nvidia has always treated me quite well, I've had no difficulties.

However, I've never even tried ATI so I actually have no basis of comparison.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Well, according to most of the reviews I've read, a single X1900XT-X is comperable (wee bit slower) than two GeForce 7800s in SLI mode. And one 1900XT-X is about €150 cheaper than two 7800s. Plus, in a few months time I can shell out a few bob for a second Crossfire edition, & have two 1900s. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I've owned both nVidea and ATI cards and honestly the only difference I've noticed was a slight twinge of angst when I loaded a game that started by splashing the competitors logo on the screen. Other than that, nada. I've always been motivated by performance/cost.

Funny that you mention Linux as well. I'm not planning on doing any gaming with it, but I am planning on having a dual-boot Linux/Windows system. Linux for all things internet related, and Windows for my gaming. Does anyone know offhand if it's doable/advisable to set up a dual boot configuration with the two OS's on seperate partitions/drives?

And finally, would someone mind having a look at this page and telling me how many HDs I could cram into it. I think 6, but I'm not sure...

Re: OT: New PC!
 

You have to set them up on different partitions. There is no particular need for separate physical drives. Make sure to install Windows first. Linux boot loaders play nice with Windows, but not vice versa.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Thanks, Fyron. I'm basically going to partition the 80GB drive in two and stick Windows on one & Linux on the other. 40GB might be a bit big for an OS partition, but given how cheap an 80GB drive is these days, why not?

Anyway, due to unforseen circumstances, my budget has increased by about a grand, and I've been putting it to good use. Those with a heart condition should look away now.

Processor: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4400 €490.00
Motherboard: Asus A8R-MVP Crossfire €120.00
RAM: Crucial 2GB (2x1GB) DDR PC4000 Ballistix €283.00
Hard Drive 1: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 NCQ 80GB €57.00
Hard Drive 2: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 NCQ 250GB €106.00
DVD Drive: Plextor PX-716AL €120.00
Graphics Card: Sapphire ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512MB €510.00
Sound Card: Creative SB X-Fi Platinum €185.00
Monitor: Samsung SM-930BF 19" LCD Monitor €361.00
Speakers: Logitech Z-5450 Speakers €369.00
Keyboard: Logitech G15 Illuminated Keyboard €86.00
Mouse: Razer Diamondback Plasma €51.00
CPU Cooling: Zalman CNPS9500-LED Aero Flower €55.00
Case: Thermaltake VA9000BWS Kandalf Full Tower €171.00
Power Supply: Enermax Liberty 620W ELT620AWT €155.00


Total: €3,119.00

I know that looks like a monster increase in price given that I was originally quoting somewhere in the €2,300 neighbourhood, but all those prices were based off of NewEgg.com. I had a friendly word with the Customs & Excise folks & they told me the import duty on that system would run €700-€1000. Current prices are all off a UK website. It's cheaper than the Irish sites & one doesn't have to pay import on it coz of the good ole EU.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Bah. Go Nvidia, they have SLI mode.

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Who can aford an SLI system? OMG just $900.00 bucks for the two top of the line cards, then another $1,900.00 for a decent top of the line system.

If I had $2,800.00 extra dollars I would spend it on other things like things I need to live. But still it would be sweet to have a mega top of the line system just once in my life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: OT: New PC!
 

And ATI has Crossfire, which is more or less the same thing. Aside from the fact that the ATI card I'm getting is almost as powerful as two nVidea 7800s, and if I whack a second one in there, well then..

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Hey. Go bold, get 4 Nvida 7800 512 GTXs, all working together in SLI mode! Have the power to do whatever you want!

Re: OT: New PC!
 

And soon the next generation of cards will be out from Nvidia, and their cards will wipe the floor with the current ATI...etc etc ad nausem. The cycle will continue, with the prices for top cards from both companies absurdly high, continually one-upping each other...

If you actually want the best performance vs. price ratio, go for the generation behind the latest generation. Perfectly good performance for a hell of a lot less cost. To be honest...who actually needs that much graphical power? I run a 6600GT and it'll handle anything I throw at it. It'll be a long time before I have to upgrade, and when I do it won't be horribly expensive like it would be if I went top of the line.

My advice would be to not bother with the latest graphics card and go with something a little more reasonably priced, yet with perfectly good performance.

But that's just me, and I'm a little stingy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: New PC!
 

Wait a week or two and when the 7900's hit the shelves, buy a pair of 7800's after the price falls.