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-   -   Oblivion (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=28139)

Alneyan April 5th, 2006 11:59 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
Bah, don't worry. All I need is some knowledge of German, and I'll be happy afterwards.

It's the same Gold version we have here... well, except that it is perhaps half-translated, and it's hard as hell to find a box. All major Internet sites I've found only offer Gothic II and (if I'm lucky) the add-on separately, for a total sum of... between 75€ and 85€, shipping not included. A little bit under $100 I guess. Amazon can import Gothic II without the add-on from the UK for €25, or the Gold version from Germany for a mere €15... a bargain, if you are on speaking terms with Goethe.

Did I mention the publisher who was supposed to distribute Gothic II (the initial release, which we obtained a few months before the US if memory serves) has gone bankrupt a few months after the release? Of course, they didn't make much of a show of advertising the game either.

Morkilus April 5th, 2006 12:56 PM

Gothic II gold
 
What about gogamer.com? It doesn't say this version is German, and it's twenty bucks.

http://www.gogamer.com/cgi-bin/GoGam.../View/001GOT2G

Alneyan April 5th, 2006 01:52 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
I was under the impression that Gogamer only shipped to the US, Alaska and Hawaii, along with US military bases abroad (looking at their Shipping options page). I know several other notable websites turned me down, including Amazon.com after several tries ("nope, product only ships to the US and Canada. Please look up your local Amazon website, and so on and so forth").

Not that international orders are an option for me these days, unless I *really* want it. No international debit card (either in my possession or in the hands of anyone I know) and shipping fees, that sort of thing. There still are a few import shops, though it has been dwindling of late. I miss my Amiga days (that was only ten years ago), where I had no trouble buying games imported straight from the UK.

Have I been digressing again?

OG_Gleep April 5th, 2006 03:45 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Well if you consider Oblivon an Action RPG, from what I understand as Alneyan said, the two games are in the same style. Gothic II if I remember right was given good reviews across the board, as was the recent gold edition.

I personally don't see either game as an action rpg ala diablo, dungeon siege, or NWN. From my memory, a lot of Oldschool RPGs were solo romps, but ya I too miss the party based systems.

Alexti, ya thats what I thought you ment, but for the purpose of the discussion the goal was to categorize the RPGs in their respective genre as while each took different approaches to it, they all shared the same goal ...deliver a compelling single player adventure through the use of the normal RPG tools. Even then my groupings probably would have been different (Pools of Raidence reminded me of BG for instance).

NT - ya I was referring to the main campaign. We did load up some of the modules, and I tried a couple of them myself once some of the big ones came out. I dunno, I just never liked the system. Create a new character specifically for the purpose of playing for 4 hours? Didn't see all that appealing to me.

NTJedi April 5th, 2006 04:23 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
NT - ya I was referring to the main campaign. We did load up some of the modules, and I tried a couple of them myself once some of the big ones came out. I dunno, I just never liked the system. Create a new character specifically for the purpose of playing for 4 hours? Didn't see all that appealing to me.

Well if you felt your character was advancing too quickly some modules are available which slow down the speed. You could identify a slower speed and combine 3 or 4 modules using the same character.
Also you could always try playing a DM while you have friends/relatives explore a module you downloaded. I personally found this to be very fun... just remember with great power comes great responsibility.

OG_Gleep April 5th, 2006 06:20 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Hehe its not that speed of which I am leveling. I don't know the length of gameplay per module varies greatly. If you could say, use the same character and the modules were just new chapter in that characters life, then it would be awesome. Theres only so many ways you can roll a warrior, and I'm not a big fan of replaying for the same general experience (same skills, same loot progression, same combat sytle etc.) under a new story.

But thats not to say Neverwinter Nights isn't a great game or engine. You can see the engine at work in multiple games and I enjoyed them all. But due to its, and games that used the engines success, I doubt they will make another BG style RPG anytime soon.

PrinzMegaherz April 5th, 2006 07:13 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

Alneyan said:
Bah, don't worry. All I need is some knowledge of German, and I'll be happy afterwards.

Interesting. I always thought that women need one man for money, one man to talk to and one man to have fun. I knew there was a fourth guy needed for speaking german.

Anyway, when I suggested to make a german translation of Dominions 3, everybody said "who would need that, everybody speaks english, it would not increase Illwinter's sales" and bla. Now you see how hard it can if there is an interesting game you would like to play in a language you do not understand. All games released in the german market have been translated, and while many people speak basic english, most won't understand the special terms used in Dom 3 regarding faith or mythology. I still think it would be a good idea to make the language at least moddable.

NTJedi April 5th, 2006 07:15 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
Theres only so many ways you can roll a warrior, and I'm not a big fan of replaying for the same general experience (same skills, same loot progression, same combat sytle etc.) under a new story.

Each class has its own skills so if you've played all the classes 3 times then you've done all you can.
'same loot progression'? ... now that's not entirely accurate. Some modules have the basic diablo setup, some have a setup where loot is earned in towns, some have a setup where loot is earned thru quests, some using stealing as an option and the list goes on. Just need to ask on the NWN forums for what loot system interests you.
'same combat style' well that sort of varies between the type of character you are playing. And some modules are setup where you can choose to join the forces of good or evil or neither.

Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
I doubt they will make another BG style RPG anytime soon.

Unfortunately true... many developers/publishers believe the future is in having the most fancy graphics even at the cost of less game content and smaller battlefields. Too bad no BG style games exist with a random game generator.
I'm waiting to see when the first RPG will have a random game generator. Otherwise once you play a game two or three times you know all the places, monsters and events.

OG_Gleep April 5th, 2006 11:32 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
In D&D systems atleast, I tend to figure out what fits my playstyle first, re-rolling till I figure it out. So although there may be different ways to play a class, I'll find the one I like and go from there. I don't particularly enjoy "experiencing everything" a class has to offer. I also tend to play warrior classes in solo based games. And while there might be variations in playstyle between the Paladin types, Warrior types, and Berserker types, your still melee fighting. This is primarily why I enjoy party based systems. I get to try a little of everything while the game still holds my attention.

By loot progression I mean (and I'll use a generic example because I can't remember what the NWN loot table looked like) Level 1-3 Iron weapons/armor, Level 3 - 5 Steel weapons/armor, Level 5-7 Dwarven weapons/armor etc. etc. etc. Magical drops will vary, but the excitement of finding the "next more powerful item" is gone because you've already seen what that range of items can do.

More so then anything is what I mentioned with your character not carrying over from module to module limits my enjoyment of the module scene. The two factors listed above contribute a great deal to not wanting to roll another toon...but a large part is I get attatched to my character, and want to continue his adventures. Again thats just me.

Alneyan April 6th, 2006 07:54 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Regarding NWN, I'm pretty sure you can carry your character from one module to another... unless playing in multiplayer with a character vault, where you may be restricted to characters in the vault (and not your local characters). It's up to the game host, though. Of course, there *is* a problem with the actual firepower of your character: most mods recommend a relatively narrow of levels, though there is nothing to prevent you from going against their wishes.

PrinzMegaherz, would it help you if I told you I was a guy? Your avatar is clearly more feminine, though.

Not all German games have been translated, actually. On the top of my head, I can name Anstoss (starting from the third game in the series) or Mad TV II, and I'm pretty sure a couple others have not been translated either. Of course, that's only a few games compared to all the games left untranslated from English... but a lot more than the games only available in, say, French (I can't think of a game released in the last ten years that has been written in French and not translated). I guess your situation is a little bit better in that aspect.

I've always felt that the problem with translations is very simply the difficulty in finding interest in said translation. The people on these boards pretty much all know enough English to understand Dominions; if they did not, they probably wouldn't be reading and writing posts here. Players who don't know much about English are unlikely to hear about Dominions in the first place, so they cannot voice their interest, and without any (apparent) interest, there isn't much point in a translation. Hmm, looks like a Gordian knot.

OG_Gleep April 6th, 2006 03:39 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Right thats true, you could theoretically do that, but the original game capped at level 20. Some modules wanted you to be lvl 3, some were for level 10, some recommended totally new characters. Even if you ignored the character level recommendations, you would still hit that cap after completing a few of them. There may be some mods out now that are ment for players that have reached the CAP, but I didn't see them..and I don't know how much fun it is an option.

It just seemed to me that the module system was perfect for people who loved to "try everything" a game has to offer. I'm just not one of those people.

Vicious Love April 7th, 2006 11:43 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Getting back on topic, I couldn't help but notice that Bethesda:

A) Have not even implemented combat from horseback, nor any other remotely innovative feature. "Radiant AI" was more impressive in Ultima VII, where at least the NPCs did something other than stand in one location and stare at a wall for a few hours, then move elsewhere and do the same.

B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which
B1) Is moddable with negligible difficulty for the PC version of the game, and just a few shades more difficulty for the X-Box version.
B2) Was already completed long before Oblivion even went gold. As were most of their other overpriced upcoming expansions, I'll wager.

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

Graeme Dice April 7th, 2006 12:17 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
A) Have not even implemented combat from horseback, nor any other remotely innovative feature.

Why do people care about innovation? Innovation does not make a good game. It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword. If no combat from horseback is a dealbreaker, then I question whether you are the correct type of person to enjoy any game of this type in the first place.

Quote:

"Radiant AI" was more impressive in Ultima VII, where at least the NPCs did something other than stand in one location and stare at a wall for a few hours, then move elsewhere and do the same.

Well, since they _don't_ just do that, I'd wonder whether you've even played Oblivion. Of course, since you haven't purchased it by your admission below, I'd certainly hope that you haven't played it yet.

Quote:

B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which
B1) Is moddable with negligible difficulty for the PC version of the game, and just a few shades more difficulty for the X-Box version.
B2) Was already completed long before Oblivion even went gold. As were most of their other overpriced upcoming expansions, I'll wager.

Remember people, it's unethical for companies to charge for their products.

Quote:

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Saber Cherry April 7th, 2006 03:28 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which
B1) Is moddable with negligible difficulty for the PC version of the game, and just a few shades more difficulty for the X-Box version.
B2) Was already completed long before Oblivion even went gold. As were most of their other overpriced upcoming expansions, I'll wager.


Not to mention that Horse Armor went on sale before they bothered to implement horse reins. Players still gallop around with arms in "I am holding reins" position, but no reins. Hmmm... sounds like quality support.

PrinzMegaherz April 7th, 2006 03:43 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Graeme Dice said:
It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword.


No insults, please. The combat engine of Die by the Swords is light years ahead of the one used in Oblivion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

OG_Gleep April 8th, 2006 12:57 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which


Quick response before I leave. I am not 100% on this, but from my limited exposure to xbox live, this is my take:

Its because of the Xbox 360. They are charging people for market place mods, and they can't give it to the PC people for free and still charge the console people. You will see a lot of this, the xbox 360 market place is ment for developers to offer Mod like content at a premium for the console market. Thats my take on the situation anyway.

PrinzMegaherz April 8th, 2006 05:52 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
Quick response before I leave. I am not 100% on this, but from my limited exposure to xbox live, this is my take:

Its because of the Xbox 360. They are charging people for market place mods, and they can't give it to the PC people for free and still charge the console people. You will see a lot of this, the xbox 360 market place is ment for developers to offer Mod like content at a premium for the console market. Thats my take on the situation anyway.

I'm so sorry for poor Bethesda, forced by evil Microsoft to charge extra money for trivial updates...

Seriously, I hope noone buys those things. I would have expected Bethesda to release some seriously needed patches, instead they have the guts to offer things at 2.50$ that other companies provide for free.

Graeme Dice April 8th, 2006 10:16 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

PrinzMegaherz said:
I would have expected Bethesda to release some seriously needed patches,

Such as?

PrinzMegaherz April 8th, 2006 11:49 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Graeme Dice said:
Quote:

PrinzMegaherz said:
I would have expected Bethesda to release some seriously needed patches,

Such as?

A language patch for the non english versions. As I said before, the translation is terrible, many of the german texts make no sense at all, are half english half german. I heard similar things from the french version, so I assume that it's not only us.

I understand that those people that create the new content are not the people that would be working on such a patch.

PvK April 11th, 2006 12:00 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
Skeletons will always be level 3 ... Skeleton warriors will always be level 6. If you enter a dungeon at level 1, you will face skeletons. If you eneter the same dungeon at level 5, you will face skeleton warriors. The equipment carried by each type of enemey improves the more you move up the chart. The top tier mob of each table will always be scaled to your level to provide a challenge for high level characters.
...
Certain Enemies, like Bandits, or Bosses, will always be +X above your level. A bandit leader for instance, will always be 7 levels above you, and will be given level appropriate equipment.
...
Honestly I don't know how else you would do it. Because of how opened eneded this game is, there is no way to know when someone will get to a certain quest. In order to keep a non-linear structure, and still provide a challenge the whole way through, I can't think of a better system.


Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

PvK

shovah April 11th, 2006 01:48 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
advice for would be gladiators: if for some reason your having trouble with the arena and are starting a new character try a kajhit born under the sign of the lover (dosnt really matter what skills you take). when you go into the arena cast lovers kiss on the enemy and enjoy 10 seconds of free beating then after that use eye of fear on them and shoot/chase and kill then while they flee in terror. this tactic does have a little trouble when facing 3 opponents so the best advice i have is eye of fear the strongest opponent and then paralyze another and kill the un-affected enemy. this brought me through ever single arena match at around lvl 6 or 7 on normal difficulty (i dont suggest using it on the gray prince, you should earn that victory yourself)

OG_Gleep April 11th, 2006 03:02 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
The grey prince is the easiest fight =)

OG_Gleep April 11th, 2006 03:20 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

PvK said:
Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

PvK

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

PrinzMegaherz April 11th, 2006 07:50 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
Quote:

PvK said:
Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

PvK

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

Well, if Cavedog had charged 2 dollars for each additional unit they made for total annihilation, they would propably own the whole world by now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

shovah April 12th, 2006 09:36 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
true but thats not the point here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif.
on a different note what do you people enjoy doing in oblivion? my personal favourites are the dark brotherhood quests and the arena but having finished both of those i have little else to do.
my majors are: hand to hand, light armour, stealth, alchemy, athletics, acrobatics and marksman and i have a decent security.im a khajit with a decent selection of magic equipment (the arena champion armour, all the dark brotherhood rewards and the hands of midnight) and i have a huge amount of potions with lvl76 alchemy (doing alchemy is all i do now) so i really need something to do or i may just resort to the main quest and dungeon crawling (neither of which require much skill compared to assasination or arena battles so something else that actually requires more skill that being able to tap a button would be nice)

OG_Gleep April 12th, 2006 11:10 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Is it you know all your options and are choosing not to do them? Or you just don't know what to do? If its the latter, the sections for non-main quest line in the strategy book was way bigger then the main quest line. I can't find the book atm but I'd estimate its atleast 3times bigger.

Theres a buttload of misc quests, each town has a minimum of 3, and some of 6-7. Theres the Mage guild, which is not unroleplayingy since you are an alchemist. I'm not going to spoil it for you, but I believe you would find the reward for that very useful.

Had you not done the Arena, the fighters guild may have been unroleplayingy, but since you have...

The Thieves guild also fits with your skill set and gameplay choices, as Assasins and thieves share similar talents.

Apart from that, theres a lot of freeform quests, like the niniroot quest, the daedric shrine quests, vampire hunting etc etc.

My Alchemy is at 100, and I still havne't found any Master equipment. They can only be found as loot, or in certain dungeons.

Also, have you gone through all the random oblivion gates? At higher levels its very rewarding, as the stones you get can be used anywhere to enchant your armor and weapons. The world is filled with random gates...actually in my current mission I'm on for the Mage guild had me going in a dungeon. Before I entered it was a bright sunny day, and everything looked right in the surroundings. When I came out however, the sky was red and when I looked to my left there was a big huge honking oblivion gate. I thought that was very cool.

Have you found the two secret horses? I really want one of them.

I am working through the Mage Guild Quests, and after that I either plan to go through the deadric shrine quests, try to find the Master alchemy equipment, or get into the real-estate game. I only own one house at the moment, and its a pain to travel back to anvil when I'm in the east.

PrinzMegaherz - There are a lot of different models that have been tested or are in testing now. I'm not saying that I particularly like the fact that they chose to release one skin and charge $2.00 for it. But I wouldn't mind paying a preimum for proffesional quality content, and support the developers of a game or franchise that I'd like to see continue. Its not a new concept, a lot of amatuer mod teams cross over into the commercial realm. Why shouldn't they be compensated for releasing additional content? Would it be better to wait 6 months to a year for a $30 expansion pack? I am not upset that they are charging like a lot of people, and you seem to be, I am upset at the content they chose to sell.

shovah April 13th, 2006 09:53 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
ive already started the theives guild, ive done the mages guild with a previous character and didnt exactly find it useful, ive practically completed the ninroot quest and i get bored rather quickly of the random quests.
and as for secret horses what are they, the only one i can think of that would qualify as secret is shadowmere (look really cool)

Cainehill April 13th, 2006 01:34 PM

Re: Oblivion
 

There's apparently an immortal horse - getting it means you don't have to even think about spending $2 for the horse armor download.

OG_Gleep April 13th, 2006 06:34 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Really? I find it hard to stock certain ingredients.

The random quests? Are you reffering to the freeform (daedric shrines) or the misc quests.

shovah April 13th, 2006 06:41 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
the misc quests, they all seem too short/simple.

edit: i have a question, do camelion effects stack? ive got a curiass of the spy with 20% cam and the hands of midnight that have +10% cam so do these stack or does only the highest count?

PvK April 14th, 2006 04:05 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
Quote:

PvK said:
Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

PvK

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

I was talking about all the fantasy games with broken game balance and the ruts they get stuck in warping the reality of their gameworlds to try to provide balanced play instead of fixing the balance problems.

As for paying for extra bits of content, I agree it _could_ be appropriate, but it looks like it is already being abused to nickle & dime people for silly things.

PvK

Vicious Love April 14th, 2006 04:28 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

PvK said:
As for paying for extra bits of content, I agree it _could_ be appropriate, but it looks like it is already being abused to nickle & dime people for silly things.

PvK

Precisely. There's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for additional content, but this thing costs about 5% of the full price of the game. A few meshes and skins are not 5% of a game. I realize Bethesda aren't forcing this purchase on anyone, and buying a bland little micromod for more than it's worth is entirely the buyer's fault, but it still smacks of exploitation. Exploitation of overeager spendthrifts with a vestigial sense of finance, at best, but exploitation nonetheless. The fact that this content was complete long before the game was finished only makes Bethesda look that much worse.
I mean, think of how much either of Morrowind's expansions would have cost were they released in absurdly overpriced little packages like this.

Sure, the whole thing looks profitable on paper, and it's not like there's any breach of contract at play. Were there a contract between consumer and games publisher, I doubt it would include a "goodwill clause" which forces publishers to support the fanbase, release patches regularly, and charge reasonable prices(0.00 rupees, for instance) for their minimods. By that same token, there's nothing preventing performance artists from "entertaining" their audience with an hour-long show that consists of nothing more than a framed Polaroid of Phillip Glass duct-taped to an American Federal-era armoire under a blacklight.
Both practices are legitimate, and initially profitable, but both are miserly and petty enough to annoy the fanbase, and discourage them from purchasing any more of the publisher's/artists' products/services. Because they're sickeningly cheap tricks to pull.

Vicious Love April 14th, 2006 04:41 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

OG_Gleep said:
Had you not done the Arena, the fighters guild may have been unroleplayingy, but since you have...
...
The Thieves guild also fits with your skill set and gameplay choices, as Assasins and thieves share similar talents.


Aren't there assassins who refuse to stoop to petty theft? Aren't there near-suicidal glory hounds who insist on fighting in the arena with nothing but mage skills, out of some sorta twisted, quintessentially elven inferiority issues?
I like to believe there's more to roleplaying than deciding whether you're a fighter, mage, thief or cleric.

Then again, I've never been able to "roleplay"(get remotely immersed, that is) with Morrowind.
I "buy" the premise of a game like Master of Orion because I get the distinct impression of other civilizations, with their own agenda, doing their own thang for their own reasons. Morrowind felt like nothing quite so much as a bunch of mannequins standing around, waiting for me to push their buttons*.
My point being, you could see the strings**, and that doesn't make for a very compelling world, in terms of immersion.

Also, ever notice how you can just casually loot a bunch of places in the game(the Balmora and Caldera mages' guilds spring to mind) for more gold than you can earn in a year or two of game time? Without using a single thief skill or spell? Hard to roleplay a thief when you have to force yourself to overlook these obvious treasure troves. But that brings us back to that whole metagaming grievance SC and I brought up earlier, and there's no real point to retreading that ground.

* Not that ordinary mannequins have buttons, but that's what makes Morrowind NPCs special.

** Not that mannequins have strings, either.

Morkilus April 14th, 2006 04:45 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
(intentionally butchering your quote)

Quote:

Vicious Love said:Phillip Glass duct-taped to an American Federal-era armoire under a blacklight.

Now THIS I would pay to see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

By the way, is this game the reason I can't get any more MP games in Dominions anymore? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif Or maybe I just need to bite the bullet and start a PBEM myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Vicious Love April 14th, 2006 04:55 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Graeme Dice said:
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
A) Have not even implemented combat from horseback, nor any other remotely innovative feature.

Why do people care about innovation?


[/quote]

I dunno. Possibly because each and every preview of the game promised us volumes upon volumes of innovation?
Or possibly because many of us were fundamentally dissatisfied with many core aspects of Morrowind, and no innovation means no changing these core aspects?
Or maybe we just like the idea of game development not grinding to a screeching halt in the present day, because our games are perfectly all right as they currently are, and there's really nothing new to invent? If games like Oblivion don't take the vanguard, what will?

Quote:


Innovation does not make a good game.

Every worthwhile computer game since Pong begs to differ. Innovation may not be sufficient, but without it you're just regurgitating the same old stuff with better graphics and a steeper price tag.

Quote:

It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword.

Erm... no. It's not really much better than Fable's, either. And it can't begin to compare to Mount & Blade's system.

Quote:

If no combat from horseback is a dealbreaker, then I question whether you are the correct type of person to enjoy any game of this type in the first place.

This is a cutting-art, state-of-the-edge game that uses a revolutionary third-party tree rendering program and an even more revolutionary "NPCs walk from point A to point B" system, and yet it can't afford to throw in a feature that was available in Daggerfall? I realize it would be a mite trickier to make it work, what with no longer using sprite-based graphics and all, but come on. Speaking of the Point A to Point B engine...

Quote:


Well, since they _don't_ just do that, I'd wonder whether you've even played Oblivion. Of course, since you haven't purchased it by your admission below, I'd certainly hope that you haven't played it yet.

'fraid I have. It was decent, but you could still see the strings.


Quote:

Remember people, it's unethical for companies to charge for their products.

See above. Honestly, this is just a cheap shot on behalf of BethSoft's marketing department.

Quote:

Quote:

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Go ahead, take a guess.

Graeme Dice April 15th, 2006 02:47 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
I dunno. Possibly because each and every preview of the game promised us volumes upon volumes of innovation?

Really? Can you provide a half-dozen or so previews that claim that the game will be innovative?

Quote:

Or possibly because many of us were fundamentally dissatisfied with many core aspects of Morrowind, and no innovation means no changing these core aspects?

What core asects would you expect to change? It's still an Elder Scrolls game, so it's not like any reasonable person would expect radically different gameplay.

Quote:

If games like Oblivion don't take the vanguard, what will?

I'd rather have a fun game than an innovative game.

Quote:

Every worthwhile computer game since Pong begs to differ.

If you only consider innovative games to be worthwhile, then you must not enjoy very many computer games.

Quote:

Innovation may not be sufficient, but without it you're just regurgitating the same old stuff with better graphics and a steeper price tag.

Well, since there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating games that are similar to old games but that have better graphics, I fail to see your complaint. Your complaint about price is also pure nonsense, since Morrowind and Oblivion both cost exactly the same numerical price: $59.99 CDN. Of course, that $59.99 CDN in 2006 for Oblivion is actually cheaper than the $59.99 CDN in 2002 for Morrowind. Game prices have dropped tremendously over the past 20 years.

Quote:

Erm... no. It's not really much better than Fable's, either. And it can't begin to compare to Mount & Blade's system.

Mount and Blade has a gimmicky, easily exploited combat system that lets a character right out of the gate fight off a dozen attackers just by backpedaling and letting them form a single file line. Further, your demand that the combat be perfect is quite ridiculous. It doesn't need to be perfect, it merely needs to be good.

Quote:

This is a cutting-art, state-of-the-edge game that uses a revolutionary third-party tree rendering program and an even more revolutionary "NPCs walk from point A to point B" system, and yet it can't afford to throw in a feature that was available in Daggerfall? I realize it would be a mite trickier to make it work, what with no longer using sprite-based graphics and all, but come on. Speaking of the Point A to Point B engine...

So let me ask you a simple question. What kind of actual gameplay value does combat from horseback add to a game?

Quote:

'fraid I have. It was decent, but you could still see the strings.

You stated that you weren't going to support Bethesda with your money. That is a clear admission tha you haven't purchased the game. Further, if the game was "decent", by your own admission, then how can you possible have so much vitriol for it?

Quote:

See above. Honestly, this is just a cheap shot on behalf of BethSoft's marketing department.

No, it's called an observation of the mindset of your typical person who feels that they are entitled to luxury goods at whatever price they want, rather than the price the seller decides to provide it at. Bethesda is perfectly within their rights to sell mods at whatever price they want to, since they have in no way shape, or form cheated you with your purchase. (Well, not your purchase, since you admitted that you won't be paying for the game even though you already played it.)

Quote:

Quote:

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Go ahead, take a guess.

[/quote]

Okay, you are making observations about the AI behaviour because you pirated the game. It's nice to see that you're now trying to cover up your admission that you either haven't purchased, or haven't played Oblivion. Please don't bother, since I have no real reason to want to deal with liars.

Graeme Dice April 15th, 2006 02:49 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
Also, ever notice how you can just casually loot a bunch of places in the game(the Balmora and Caldera mages' guilds spring to mind) for more gold than you can earn in a year or two of game time? Without using a single thief skill or spell?

If you can't earn more than the 10K or so gold you'd get from picking up the trash items in those guilds within a year of game time, then you aren't a particularly competent player.

Graeme Dice April 15th, 2006 02:52 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

Vicious Love said:
Precisely. There's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for additional content, but this thing costs about 5% of the full price of the game. A few meshes and skins are not 5% of a game. I realize Bethesda aren't forcing this purchase on anyone, and buying a bland little micromod for more than it's worth is entirely the buyer's fault, but it still smacks of exploitation.

My, aren't you the disgruntled little communist! I wasn't aware that it was only moral to price content based on what fraction of the game that content represents. How foolish of me. It's a good thing I learned this from a self-admitted software pirate, or else I might never have realized it.

Vicious Love April 15th, 2006 05:05 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

Graeme Dice said:
My, aren't you the disgruntled little communist! I wasn't aware that it was only moral to price content based on what fraction of the game that content represents. How foolish of me.







...








...








...








Communist?

I mean, I was expecting an irrational flame or two, but this is just... wow. I have no idea how to address that. Couple that with...

Quote:

It's a good thing I learned this from a self-admitted software pirate,

...bearing in mind that I'd made no such admission, and it becomes clear that there's no point to continuing this flame war.

Cainehill April 15th, 2006 06:09 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
For a change I'm not interested in getting into a flame fest but - someone may be a software pirate, Graeme. Someone might also have been a beta tester, which is _another_ way they could be playing the game without purchase.

Alneyan April 15th, 2006 06:33 AM

Re: Oblivion
 
And incidentally, someone might actually have friends who happen to own the game. I know it's a bold idea, but it might just be the case, yaknow? Of course, I would be very surprised if such were to be the case... aren't we all supposed to be hermits?

Most if not all licences I have read allow the transfer of the licence to another party, provided that the previous owner removes the game from said computer. So the friends way stands even to a literal reading of the licence (unless the Oblivion EULA explicitly states the contrary).

Now Vicious Love, you are supposed to call him a bourgeois. No, really. Trust me on that one.

PDF April 15th, 2006 12:28 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
All that debate about the honesty of the mod price ?
My, Graeme, I can't understand what you're doing : trying to disqualify people discontent by the attitude of the publishers who makes paying mods, and call them pirates ?

Agrajag April 15th, 2006 01:39 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
I'd just like to point you to this here link: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gripes
This should cover most of the flaws of Oblivion, I believe.

Oh, and by the way, I've seen the Radiant AI at work, and it doesn't look very "radiant"... Atleast, I don't think people standing in the middle of the road staring straight ahead at some far-away wall is very "radiant"...

Morkilus April 15th, 2006 01:57 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

Agrajag said:
Oh, and by the way, I've seen the Radiant AI at work, and it doesn't look very "radiant"... Atleast, I don't think people standing in the middle of the road staring straight ahead at some far-away wall is very "radiant"...

I've seen people do this downtown late at night, and I've been known to do this in hallways at work after long days of database work and posting to this site... maybe it's more realistic than you think? Is there no way to get drunk/high/bored/insane in Oblivion? If not, I will NOT buy this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Daynarr April 15th, 2006 02:38 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
Quote:

Morkilus said:
Quote:

Agrajag said:
Oh, and by the way, I've seen the Radiant AI at work, and it doesn't look very "radiant"... Atleast, I don't think people standing in the middle of the road staring straight ahead at some far-away wall is very "radiant"...

I've seen people do this downtown late at night, and I've been known to do this in hallways at work after long days of database work and posting to this site... maybe it's more realistic than you think? Is there no way to get drunk/high/bored/insane in Oblivion? If not, I will NOT buy this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

shovah April 15th, 2006 03:08 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
theres skooma, its a drug that makes your stronger and faster but your intelligence and agility plummit to a very low level so you basically cant cast spells and 1 hit will knock you over. im not sure about getting drunk because i sell all my alcaholic beverages

OG_Gleep April 15th, 2006 09:25 PM

Re: Oblivion
 
I have close to 60k right now. I haven't been playing for a year, and only a tiny portion of that was gained through picking through the various guilds. Novice alchemy equipment can only take you so far.

OG_Gleep April 15th, 2006 09:44 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Shovah - yeah they stack. You can create a chamealon suit, and be invisible.

VL - Yeah you can roleplay a pure theif, or a pure fighter or pure whatever you want to do. But he said he finished the assasins guild...so...I guess you can stop after you have done that.

shovah April 15th, 2006 10:00 PM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
ive taken it upon myself to kill people who insult me or my species, its kinda fun (too bad you cant kill important people)
so my low leveled characters achievements are:
arena grand champion
dark brotherhood listener
master alchemist
knight of the white stallion (dont ask)
somewhere in the thieves guild
a few others i cant think of

edit: thanks for clarifying the cameleon thing (i had a feeling they stacked since i could stand infront of people and not be noticed) but the problem now is finding a pair of cameleon greaves, boots and a helm. currently i have a spys curiass and the hands of midnight (20% cameleon, 30 sun damage and +10 hand to hand skill, not too bad especially for my level)
also if anyone wants a tip on how to quickly raise alchemy just fast travel to all the farms you have found and make a load of restore fatigue potions (can get quite alot of money too)

OG_Gleep April 16th, 2006 11:30 AM

Re: Gothic II gold
 
Yep, restore fatigue pots is the easiest way to quickly raise alchemy and get a little cash. Unfortunatley, we both put alchemy as a main skill. This can lead to some inflated levels, and I would recommend anyone starting or who has just begun to not do so.

A caution shovah, about the chamelon thing. It makes you totally invisible, and since its a equipment buff, its constant. You will be able to basically do anything you want and the NPCs won't be able to see or target you. Sorta like god mode, except with the NPCs yelling for you to come out. Some people dig it, but the majority of the people said it sucked out any kind of challenge.

About the AI - I have seen some pretty cool things, and the fact that its not scripted...we are moving in the right direction. Its not perfect, but its a window at whats to come. I don't understand why there is so much negativity towards Oblivion. Reminds me of PS2 fanboys on a Xbox forum.


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