Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

The size of a vehicle is expressed with the ...size...the tonnage weight. The slots on three leveles are so that we are not limited in available spaces. We are limited in available tonnage.

You're making no sense.

Tonnage and Space have always vied with each other in warship design since time immemorial.

Take for example, modern US Navy Warships from the Spruance Class onwards; their boxy sides allow for a lot of internal volume to carry volume intensive equipment like computerized combat systems; which while weighing less than a gun; take up a lot more space; with cooling requirements, etc.

Even though they all have three decks a small ship still has less slots(as well as tonnage) then a larger ship.

I wouldn't mind the three decks on smaller combatants if each deck wasn't an identical copy of the deck above it and below it; making the ships look like they were pounded out of cookie cutter makers

Real ships have decks that are smaller/bigger than other decks due to the shape of the hull.

I like the decks. They add some creativity to design.

As it is now, they really don't because there are simply too many slots for things, even on the smallest combatant, so you're not forced to make tough decisions on what you want on your ship.

Also, who's to say how many weapons of future technologies will fit on future vehicles.

Do you have any idea how idiotic that sounds?

Ships since time immemorial all have been designed around the weapons they carry. The Yamato's huge size was simply the only way to move 9 x 18" guns at 20+ knots with sufficient armor across the ocean.

For a gun, whether it be projectile or a ray gun, you need a clear line of fire from where the gun is mounted to the target, which limits where you can put it. Secondly, there are other constraints, like recoil from the gun if it's a railgun or chemical propellant weapon, you have to place them in areas where the hull is strong enough to take the recoil. If it's an energy weapon, you've traded one problem (recoil) for another problem, that of getting sufficient power from the ships' power plant to the gun itself.

Missiles and torpedoes on the other hand, do not need a direct line of sight; since they can guide themselves to their target; but they do need a clear launching area; look at the decks of modern VLS surface combatants; they're free of obstructions that a missile could hit while climbing out of it's launcher.

To simply handwave away ship design problems by saying "it's the future!" annoys me highly.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

MarkSheppard: If SE5 is anything like Starfury, you'll be able to restrict weapon placement using custom slot types. Or simply require weapons to be in the Outer Hull region. Can't do anything about the decks all being the same size, though.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Re: fanboy definition

Simplified, my definition of a fanboy, is someone who rabidly promotes/defends something as being the best regardless of any other factors. As an example, in my opinion someone would be an SE5 fanboy if they considered the demo to be perfect and (as often happens) attacked anyone who disagreed.

In all my time here, I don't think I've come across anyone I'd consider a fanboy, as everyone here seems to be pretty reasonable.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

MarkSheppard, I thank you for your "opinions" but not for your unsubtle rudeness. Have a nice day...

And by the way, to assume that hundreds of years from now the dynamics of ship design and combat will be very similiar to today is "idiotic". Like comparing the placement of weapons on a ancient Greek warship to an American Missile Cruiser! "It's the future!" (Also it's a game.)

Good day!

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I just think he's being a little too literal on the use of the term "decks". It's really just a way of providing the extra slots on a design.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

With the demo released more and more people are posting. New personalities will be introduced that we may not yet be used to.
Also, some will be just rude. Let's do like Mindi recomends and be civil.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

-----In some areas like Planet Report screen, Facilities tab, the mouse pointer lags/jumps, it's not smooth movement.

-----In the costruction queue screen of my home planet,the Available Items list shows "0" for facilities "In Existence". This is an error.
The "In Queues" is so far correct.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

When making a bug or crash report to MM, remember to include your system specs! I don't get the previously reported lag, for example, and knowing what hardware it occurs on might be important to fixing the bug. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I completely disagree. We're talking about interstellar spacecraft here. These craft obviously don't have to contend with the restraints atmospheric craft have to put up with, due to aerodynamics, etc.

The point is, you don't have to have a ship with any particular shape. If you want a square ship, with decks that are identical to each other, it isn't inherently worse than a ship with a different structural shape. If you want true realism, every ship from every race would be spherical, since that's the shape that provides the most internal volume for the least expenditure of resources. In that case, every ship would have nearly identical decks, just slightly smaller or larger than the previous deck. Saying that decks being different in shape from each other is more realistic is, in my personal opinion, not at all true.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I have to agree with MarkSheppard on this one. If we get decks I'd rather they influence the design. I'd rather just have SEIV's slots (and hey even some nice top-down pictures if you really want. But that might be asking too much.
Although... now that I think about it making some unorthodox design widow views for a shipset might end up being pretty cool. Blueprints and alien script and such.

@Wade: I don't think so. If you have a 20mm gun or a ancient Roman ballista or a particle projection beam, they all work in kind of the same way.
Bang.
I don't like the fact that I can design a ship in SEV and put all of the engines on the right side and the ship DOESN'T spin endlessly in circles while my imperial engineers are sent to the labor camps. Yeah it's a game. Yeah it's the future. Half the fun comes from immersion, the feeling that you're an alien overlord designing the ship that will terrorize millions of your hated enemies... then sticking the forward-firing DUCs BEHIND the ion engines because - hey, why not? In the future we do things like this.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

It's very minor but stll noticable compared to the system screen.

My system:
Intel 2.8 ghz
256 GB video card (Nvidia)
1 GB dual memory
200 GB HD (Maxtor)
Windows XP

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif You should have seen a bug in the early beta...if you selected a planet and a fleet, then tried to move the fleet, the planet would move as well!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif It was really quite amusing.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

oooh moving planets, now there's an idea...

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Hey! That would be a great peice of late technology! The ability to move planets and travel like a ship. Once the planet has attained self sustaining heat from the civilization. This was in the Ringworld series by Larry Niven. The Puppeteer race have their "Fleet of Worlds" of 5 planets. Home world and 4 farm planets.

Ringworlds and Sphereworlds could be made to travel also!
The Ringworld in the story was also adjusted to travel in the fourth novel, 'Ringworld's Children'.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I was also thinking about how cool revolutions around the central star would be on a turn by turn basis - after all turns take a month each, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hmmm, tractor beams, and normal planetary and object revolutions.

...ok back on topic now, I'm breaking my own thread rule.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I completely disagree. We're talking about interstellar spacecraft here.

Tell that to the 3D designers who did the models for the spacecraft. The hulls angle inwards, do all sorts of things, the majority of them are not simple square slabs.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Like Captain Kwok said:

"I just think he's being a little too literal on the use of the term "decks". It's really just a way of providing the extra slots on a design."

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

MarkSheppard, I thank you for your "opinions" but not for your unsubtle rudeness. Have a nice day...

If you don't want me to be "rude" don't say things which insult my intelligence highly.

And by the way, to assume that hundreds of years from now the dynamics of ship design and combat will be very similiar to today is "idiotic". Like comparing the placement of weapons on a ancient Greek warship to an American Missile Cruiser! "It's the future!" (Also it's a game.)

I see my previous lecture did not sink in. You can't cram a billion archers onto a Greek Tireme in much the same way you can't cram a billion missiles onto an AEGIS cruiser; there are system limitations which present themselves. While an Archer is a very low impact weapons system which does not require heavy reinforcement of the ship's structure, or heavy power cabling runs; he still requires enough space on deck to load, pull, and fire his bow effectively; this imposes an upper limit on how many archers you can cram onto a trieme and be effective.

(Also it's a game.)

Then I guess we better play balance the M4 Sherman and Tiger I so that the German player in a game doesn't gain an unfair advantage!

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

-----Exception error: In vehicle design, Space Simulator list of vehicles. I added a star, a planet, and a warp point. I then clicked on "Add Vehicle" a few times. It was adding more warp points to the list. I double clicked on one in the list and got the error and a white screen.
Update: It does this error also if you click the "Remove Vehicle" button.

-----Exception error: During Space Simulation: Tactical: Five identical Frigates versus the same five identical frigates. One enemy ship came at my group of five. It started to explode after the attack. The explosion (and the simulation)froze. I tried to move my ships then the game crashed.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I understand Mark Sheppard's point and was hoping for a similar mechanism, where the shapes of each deck were based on the design of the ship in question. For example, a Trek ship like the various NCC-1701 Enterprises would have the Upper Deck saucer-shaped with slots over the saucer, the Middle Deck with a few boxes over the front of the engineering section (where the neck is) and boxes over the nacelles, and the Lower Deck a rectangular group of boxes over the Engineering/Secondary Hull section.

Then again, I was also expecting weapon and engine slots ala Starfury. If you are going to go with the slot system, go all the way. Maybe in Space Empires V GOLD, if we bug him enough.

But on the flip side, I AM reasonably content to soldier on with what we have now. I like it, and try not to make abusive and non-sensical component arrangements.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

lol, u guys are WAY too involved. Take a step back and have a cup of tea. Look at the clouds a while.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

If I go outside right now my eyes and throat burn and I have to flee inside. Are you trying to kill me!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

-----In Research screen, the Expected Results window does not show all of what is listed if you right click to get the Expected Results. For example :Try Cultural Studies: Sports and Sociology are not in the window.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I have no doubt that there is a great game underneath the SEV UI. But I can't get there, at least, not without so much trouble that, knowing myself, I won’t play SEV with the UI as is.

HOWEVER, I think it can be fixed. It sounds like a problem of political will on the part of MM.

Here's a lot of things that are probably easy to do and would go a long way to fixing things:

* make the ship, component, and other images much smaller (like in SE4) in order to reduce overall window sizes.
* Make the empire-wide orders window, quadrant window, item list window, and orders window moveable.
* shrink the windows borders and other useless flashy parts to one pixel wide (like SE4) - the only thing each window needs wider is a title bar, for moving it.
* lock the view so that it doesn't move whenever I move the mouse to the edge of the screen
* redo the orders window so all typical orders ('Cancel orders' etc) are available with one mouse click
* Offset the flag and other planet icons from the hex borders, so you can see which planet you've selected. Make them smaller and transparent as well. Give the user textual options for these as well ('R' for resupply, 'Y' for shipyard, etc)


* For the ship design UI: get rid of the whole blueprint graphic and decks, and allow players to add more than components just by clicking rather than drag and drop. Maybe use a slider (like under the cargo transfer window) to set a number, or whatever, and then add that number of components (to add 10 engines at once, etc...) with a single click. And make them go automatically into appropriate hulls, working from inner to outer until all space is used up. Having to place each component is extremely tedious even for a frigate.

* for every window with filters and layout buttons: simply put the most common filters and layouts used in the main button list. I shouldn't have to click layout and then click units to show just units. For example, the ship list window buttons should read: layout, filter, units only, fleets only, etc...Ditto for ALL windows with layout and filter options.

I think, if the above simple 8 modifications were implemented, then the UI would go a long way to being fixed. And then I could see the great game underneath the UI.

Thanks,

AMF

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Those images in the Turn Reports could be way smaller too... one line of text/info next to a ~200px tall image is just a waste... and makes for way too much scrolling. And the text generally everywhere could be smaller too... small text means less scrolling which actually makes it easier to read.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

---- When I tried to load a game from a space combat got an acces violation.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Bug?:

In a ground assault, my troops stopped firing and ran away after being shot at by the militia. Right-clicking on my troops showed that they had no damage (thanks to sheilding), but their weapom fire rate was "damaged". Do the militia have some crazy relode damaging weapons?

Also, the militia fully regenerated each turn (even when I had surviving troops).

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Note:

Clicking on the column header with the icon/image in lists or the log cycles through different pic sizes. For example, the log can have big, small, and none. For list screens like colonies, ships, planets etc., you can have normal, small, and none. This greatly increases the amount of rows for the list screens.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I'm sorry, Goodship, I have no clue how to fix it. Make sure to contact Aaron about this bug.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Ok, I'll power it up again and try that. That might help a lot.

For those people with gigantic hi res monitors, they could probably get away with the larger versions, maybe the resolution options in the setup screen could be made to automatically choose pic size to optimize visible system space?

edit: but smaller pics only really help IF they result in more visibile system space, so I can actually see planet names etc.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I think I see what you mean now. True, it could have been done that way, but there is no real gameplay reason why it should be done that way, other than for a tiny bit more realism. However, something like slot layout when designing a ship doesn't really help to immerse me in the game any more than I already am. Perhaps it is different with other people though, such as youself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

As it stands, I'd say the whole slot thingy is completely unnecessary and just make for more tedious designing; there's enough slots for 'anything' anyway, so why bother with it at all? It basically just make you place the components instead of simply clicking them. More work, same goal achived.

It could be made to actually serve a purpose following some of the suggestions here, but that would probably be too much work for little gain.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

The directional damage would not work if components didn't have a set position. I like it, the AI stick engines at the back of the ship, so a fleeing enemy is usual disabled.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Ok, stuck at work, but read all these reports and have a suggestion, if its not presumptious:

Might it be better if this was relabeled (and right quick!) as a Public Beta? WE (Aarons fan club!) understand that this is a work in progress, but when people see DEMO, they think (and rightly so) COMPLETED.

Maybe a simple relabling would calm some nerves?

Sign me Aarons fanboy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Bug?
I gave an highly damage ship the order to await fire and be destroyed. And I had some other ships with fuctional weapons in that sector. Nothing happens.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Did the other ships have movement points? I just tried fire on and it did work..

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Can the bugs be put in an issue tracking system somwhere ? (where aron can assign priorities, and where everyone can search if their bug has or hasnt been found)

My own contribution (maybe, havent red thru whole thread)

When opening up planet report in the tutorial (maybe elsewhere too) and then going to the structures tab, you can right click to open a detailed info screen of a structure. you can right click on any other structure even when it is underneath the now opened info screen. I understand multiple can be opened, but sending clicks thru a screen is not standard UI behaviour.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Another one, when designing a ship, when adding engines while holding shift. If you go over the maximum movement. If you then remove the engine by clicking on it once more while still holding shift (you hear the error sound) the engine is gone, but the warning of movement remains. only way to fix is to add or remove one engine without holding shift.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

And another one, when editing ship type the ship list in the ship designer overview does not update to reflect the changed type.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Here is what's wrong and right with the demo as I've played it (so far) in a simple analogy. Imagine the actual game is a fantastic engine to a car. More powerful and able to do more than lasts year's model (exactly what we asked for and now have. But to move the vehicle and get it to do all these great things, they made buttons and knobs to allow us to get to some levers and switches to get that engine to do what it was made to do. Also this car's hood has a nicely updated paint job but they did it on a Semi-trailer sized hood where we really wanted some that would keep the Car/game more aerodynamic/intuitive.
So, yes ... I'm a little sad the UI reminds me of another car I bought a few years ago called MOO3, but at least under the hood, which has 3 latches, and a push pad to get it open; there IS a turbo-charged engine instead of Moo3's often barely adequate V-4 with a leaky head gasket and a slightly bent main trans-axel. I'll need to play more to see if this instant aversion is something I can overcome, because there is a heck of a game there. And although I just don't have time to do so myself ... the Modding potential for SE:V looks better than just about any other car you can find on the Auto dealer's) lot.

With the past history of this game's designer, I'm sure most Bugs wil be squashed in a timely fashion. And any game balance issues as well.
But I just hate to see this new LOOK(Data screens that are 1/4 to 1/3 flash) and a clunky interface attached to what is supposed to be (and has the potential) to be the next step in 4x Space gaming.

P.S. I also have issues with the ship design boxes. I actually like the idea, and directional combat is something that I certainly can take. But when I buy a Bridge Module for 10 Tons and a Rock Colony Module for 100 Tons and the each take up 1 square I loose interest in that part of designing ships. Each Ship desgn should have a number of possible 5(Ton) boxes equal to approx. 125% of that vessels tonnage. <Fighters could use 0.25 or 0.5 Ton boxes.> Each component should have boxes to fill equal to tonnage devided by 5; so that placement isnt fixed like some games but that IT matters more than the current game at hand. (just remember that in space-combat your current vector doesnt matter much for weapons fire as with even modest spin rates over various axis's most weapon could come to bare in seconds, even on quite huge vessels. You'll never see a wet Navy Battleship move much off the XY 2-D grid (except when she give a broadside that'll rock the boat, hehehe) but a space battleship could be spinning like a top on any number of diff. XYZ plots.
In addition, the smallest vessels should have a very limited # of Inner boxes, so that you really had to think about what you wanted to protect.
The Bridge ... keeps that experienced crew/captain alive
Maybe a few engines ... in hopes of getting away
Or your best weapon ... make em pay to kill your ship
or ... can you see the potential.

Also Capital ships should have yet another layer, the 'C' Core, which due to the shear bulk of these behemoths, are protected even more so than 'I' Inner boxes. Most weapons and engines due to their functionality couldn't be put at Core boxes (or could be put there but only could be used when all 'O' outer boxes have been removed.) I love the look of the new ship designs but they are currently more work for the little gameplay we gain, would get a slightly better review if not also saddled with another UI backstep (even with Shift-click, it's graphics should be shrunk a bit to get more components in view. (everywhere this is needed. shrink the views a little and keep borders THIN.)

By the way, Thanks all who helped get this Car onto the test track, I'm hoping that the UI can/will be modified before they put it on the lot, or the hard work of the designer(and testers and even MM) will not pay the dividend the engine under the hood deserves to reap.

Whoa, sorry, I should have seperated this into 2 or 3 Replies. I'm back to game now. I can hear the Engine still running and I want to drive some more .. if I can just find the lever to unlock the Accelerator pedal.

remember: the greatest farmer in the world doesn't wear a Tux to the stable (I'll take clean utility over burdomsome Pizazz)

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

It does, but it doesn't show it until a refresh is done (either by selecting filter or upon re-entering the screen). It's one of a few bugs releated to refreshing.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

I slightly agree with you, but take into account that you're used to SEIV. Swithing from anything you're used to to anything you're not used to is not always intuitive. I for one really LOVE that the right click has gotten it's functionality back.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Yea, right click functionality is a GOOD thing. Lots of good things in there.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Yeah, my opinion of the interface improved after I learned it a little more. A lot of the initial dislike was "this works differently from SE4!". Not that there aren't still issues.

SE5 is going to need a good manual though, to explain the effort-saving tricks if nothing else. And given the track record in that regard I'm not hopeful. :/

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

It took some time but I've become quite efficient with most operations in the game. I've sent in lots of little suggestions recently regarding optimizing specific operations like cargo transfer or combining like-units etc., so hopefully those will start cropping up in patches. What's the level of the help-text in the demo, does it give name of object and description?

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

It gives the whole shebang. Doesn't explain stuff like where you can right click to get what menu, or tht you can click in the middle of the percentage bars to set a percent.

It also doesn't have a delay, which makes it a bit spammy.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Yep. I Keep spamming MM with that 1-sec delay for the pop-up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I usually only play with the short description these days just to keep me in the know for some of the less-used orders.

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

The right-click menu does seem a bit like an afterthought?

Re: SE5 Demo Bug Reports
 

Not necessarily, although most would agree that the arrangement of orders could be optimized.