Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Im 209 turns into a balance Mod game, I just logged into all the empires as Im having an issue with it hanging when a new empire is created. Half of all the other empires planets are rebeling, is this normal?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Can you e-mail me the saved game? Capt-Kwok at rogers dot com...

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I did the same and logged into the empires in my game. That was *really* depressing. At turn 180 none of them had developed Medium sized ships, most had around 6k research points, all but 2-3 of them had yet to leave their first system and discover any other empires(!), all but one or two of them had minor to severe maintenance problems, one guy had a mineral generation of 100k but only 10k maintenance; he didn't have *any* ships at all, at least 3 or 4 empires had just about all of their planets rebelling, etc. Hmm.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

No, not the defense bonus. That should be ECM (Defense Systems) tech. The seekers hit points should be affected by the level of armor tech. I've already done both of these for myself:

Weapon Seeker Tonnage Structure Formula := 30 + (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Armor") * 2)
Weapon Seeker Defense Modifier Formula := 30 + (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Defense Systems") * 2)

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The main culprit is the Government traits... the happiness values are just too much to counter and there isn't sufficient time for the empires to build troops to counter. Working on it asap as it is absolutely killing the AI.

-----

I've reduced the to-hit bonuses on PD with 2 exceptions as they don't need the bonus with the general change to -5% accuracy per 10 range introduced in v0.90 and the recent PD fix.

-----

Thanks for sending in save games - I often struggle to get enough turns in to watch behaviour so they really help.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

And KwokStock was really born....

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I've been thinking. The computer seem to colonize even the 'dome' planets in their system, which isn't really that smart. So, if 'Players can only colonize planets with a breathable atmosphere' is on, that should improve the computer's performance quite a bit, shouldn't it? He'd be forced out of his own system and he'd not waste population and colony ships on useless planets.

Most of the empires didn't have rebellions( in fact I think all 2-3 AIs that had rebellions had control over 2-3 solar systems), yet they didn't appear to be doing any better than those that did, so there seem to be more/bigger issues here too.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Bug - I have built an Organic Large Freighter, and it has a movement of 82.
Each contra-terrene engine (16 of them) adds 5 hexes to its movement.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Thanks! It was the result of a faulty engines-per-move value. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I've had some success in the upcoming v0.92 version getting the AI to explore more systems and expand faster by making resupply depots the first priority in a new system before spaceports, designated more ships as explorers, and tweaking construction queues for facilities...

However - at some point the AI just stops expanding and goes into a comatose state regardless if they have excess resources. I'm thinking that the AI stops building design types once it reaches some number of total ships/units for the number of colonies it has and that is what is preventing further expansion.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Maybe it's something about the AI state, like when they meet other races they go from explore/expand to consolidate and sit around, or something.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I've seen them doing it without any contacts and only their home system explored though.

Also Kwok, I've not yet seen *any* empire research other than the Frigate size ships, i.e. they research it to level 3 then dismiss the rest completely. Guessing it has something to do with the altered tech tree in the mod? The AI also seem a wee bit too interested in researching that cultural stuff.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Can't you ask Aaron? I assume he wrote the scripts orginally. I know he's only one guy and everything, but this is his game which he is selling for money, and the AI is probably the single biggest issue with it right now.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I'm not sure if kwok changed this in his but...

call Add_Tech_Area("Light Hull Construction", 5)
call Add_Tech_Area("Medium - Light Hull Construction", 1)

Is it witing to reach level 5 in Light Hull before going to Medium? It will never reach level 5, as level 3 is the max.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The levels are changed for ships, but the "rough order" hasn't been optimized. I'll push ship construction ahead though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Any chance of releasing the source to your csf? I'd like to see the improved colony selection (I'm working on a new Empire and that would help speed things up).

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I've been doing some work on a custom race AI_Setup Script; it's for the stock game right now, but could easily be modified. Here's the tech section so far:
//------------------------------------------------------------
// Main
//
function Main returns boolean
vars
racial_points : long
index : long
begin

// Select Racial Traits -------------------------------------
// Four levels exist in stock: 0k, 2k, 3k and 5k

// sell low-priority traits
call Add_Racial_Trait("Physical Weakness")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Cowardly")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Environmental Weakness")

// 0k+ racial points, always take these
call Add_Racial_Trait("Mining Aptitude")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Natural Merchants")

// 2k+ racial points, add these
call Add_Racial_Trait("Ancient Race")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Hardy Industrialists")

// 3k+ racial points, add these
call Add_Racial_Trait("High Reproduction")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Naturally Happy")

// 5k racial points, add these
call Add_Racial_Trait("Propulsion Experts")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Lucky")


// Select Technologies --------------------------------------
// Five levels of technology start exist in stock: 0, 100k, 1m, 10m, All
// with an additional post-start bonus of 0, 5k, 20k, or 100k
// AI players can also be given an AI bonus

call Add_Tech_Area("Sensors", 3)
call Add_Tech_Area("Sattelites", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Construction", 2)
call Add_Tech_Area("Mines", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Warheads", 3)

call Add_Tech_Area("Sensors", 5)
call Add_Tech_Area("Weapon Platforms", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Missile Weapons", 3)
call Add_Tech_Area("Armor", 2)

call Add_Tech_Area("Physics", 2)
call Add_Tech_Area("Shields", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Energy Pulse Weapons", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Fighters", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Smaller Weapons", 3)

// Spend any remaining points
call Add_Tech_Area("Intelligence Services", 3)
call Add_Tech_Area("Light Hull Construction", 5)
call Add_Tech_Area("Repair", 5)

set index := 3
loop
call Add_Tech_Area("Minerals Extraction", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Applied Research", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Shields", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Energy Pulse Weapons", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Armor", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Missile Weapons", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Point - Defense Weapons", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Organics Extraction", (index - 1) )
call Add_Tech_Area("Radioactives Extraction", (index - 1) )
call Add_Tech_Area("Space Yards", index )
call Add_Tech_Area("Sensors", (index + 1) )

set index := index + 1
exitwhen (index >= 20)
endloop

call Add_Tech_Area("Quantum Engine", 10)
call Add_Tech_Area("Medium Hull Construction", 10)
call Add_Tech_Area("Repair", 50)
call Add_Tech_Area("Large Base Construction", 10)
call Add_Tech_Area("Fighters", 9)
call Add_Tech_Area("Sattelites", 9)
call Add_Tech_Area("Mines", 9)
call Add_Tech_Area("Planet Utilization", 20)

return TRUE
end

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

well, i still dont understand some concepts in some files of the game

the most clueless to me is that racial+goverment+society plus and minus , i mean some races can have +5 in racial, then -3 in goverment and then -3 in society, and the result is -1 in that ability, knowing that the races cant change the goverments -cant, no?- i find such + and - very dumb, dont know , if im wrong pls tell me -im talking about the game in general, not specifically about this mod -

regards

RE: bonuses
 

There's a lot of files, where are you seeing this?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Almost everything is +/- http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. Aaron really likes additive modifiers...

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Some good news that I'm seeing in one of my AI test games. They are now building some of the new design types (like Supply and PD ships) and even sticking them in fleets. There also utilizing units more along with BSYs and defense bases. On the downside, still having trouble getting them to build "excess" ships (ie more than 10) though even when they have a nice positive resource balance.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

What's the deciding factor for how many ships they'll build anyway? Number of planets, or just resources? I'm wondering if it's actually useful for the AI to build bases, though. Perhaps those resources be better spent in units/ships.

I've never actually encountered AI Satellites so far: Do they place them tactically to guard the waypoints or are they just randomly placed( i.e. only on one side of the warp point so anyone can escape out the other side )?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

They weren't building too many satellites before, but in the updated version they'll build them and actually drop some off at WPs if they've built a sat layer.

I'm not sure what the issue is in my test games, I have trouble getting the AI to build more than 10 ships - but I see Devnullicus has a game going where most AIs have 20 or so ships with less resources...

Anyway I've sent off an e-mail to Aaron asking for him to elaborate on such matters.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sev3ha8.jpg

That's 40'ish turns in with max AI bonus and 'colonize breathable planets only'. Doesn't look like resources actually have much/anything to say about how many ships and units they build: the one with the highest resource score doesn't have the most ships/units. Notice how none of them( including me *_*) have built intelligence thingies, and few of them bother increasing research much.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The number of planets colonized isn't sufficient enough to ensure the AI will likely have a colony of each type. I plan on adding some extra lines for the AI to look at the available space and with resource-poor breathables to build a mix of non-resource facilities instead.

Anyway it's good to see that they are building larger numbers of ships in other people's games. I will have to double check to see if it's a setup issue on my end.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The problems are mostly that he falls way too far behind regarding research, making my ships be worth several of his, and the way he suddenly stops expanding. Perhaps force the AI to have at least one colony ship and two active scouts at all times, if that's possible?

Just noticed some rather major problems:

As far as I can tell, *none* of the "Mining Colony", "Farming Colony" etc. types actually include a Resupply depot! The AI has filled up a breathable Mining Colony with 19 mining facilities and 1 space port. No wonder he can't expand, his homeworld is the only supply base! Obviously all the colony types should include at least 1 Resupply depot, and possibly a space yard if enough space?

Also, there's a *ton* of units on all the AIs homeworlds: weapon platforms, troops and fighters. Waste of resources I'd say, would be far better to use them defending the system and warp points, instead of just one planet.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Most of those changes have been made in v0.92 that I've been working on. Resupply Depots are now the second facility after Spaceports to be built in a new system. Although this doesn't appear as the only hiccup for expansion, but it does seem to help somewhat. Another area of code calls for the reduction of explorer ships when new races are encountered - which might be a second hiccup. The AI in v0.92 is also launching fighters into space (believe it or not, there is no code for this function in stock) and satellites as well. If the AI does decide to build troop transports it will add them to fleets and if it makes sat layers it will place sats at WPs that lead to unknown or enemy systems.

Re: Research, I know the paths are not optimized but there is also some randomness involved - the AI will be big on research if it just happens to a colonize a big breathable planet that is resource poor and already has less than 10% of its total colonies as research colonies.

In SE:IV it was easy to specify numbers and types of ships that AI should have for the number of colonies it had etc. Now it's a lot less obvious with "priority" values attached to a design type and other factors that are not exactly clear.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Good news! I was running through the calculations on paper and figured out what my problem was on the ship construction front in the v0.92 update. It turns out I had changed one of the base values in the wrong direction and that is what was capping the number of AI ships in my test games. Anyhow I'm going to build a spreadhsheet at lunch to facilitate new values and I'm fairly confident that I can get the AI building ships in greater numbers and in greater diversity - which will certainly help with expansion. Unfortunately I'm stuck at work so I won't be able to test it out until later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That's great! At the very least it can make the AI much harder when given bonuses, and in general create a more interesting game with the bigger variety of ships and units.

Might want to consider putting Supply Depot as the first facility? Since spaceports take 5 turns, that means a total of 8 turns before the AI gets supplies in that system, as opposed to 3 turns if the Depot is prioritized. Spaceport is probably less urgent since the colony will probably be too busy building facilities to construct ships the first few turns.

Satellites at warp points will be great. Does the computer have any way of placing them optimally, though? I've noticed that's a big issue in SE V: unless the Satellites are placed all around the warp point in the sector view, just about anything can get through and run away.

Is the AI prevented from agreeing to / proposing no-research and expansion-hindering pacts in 0.92? I've noticed alot of the AIs in my games have such pacts, which obviously is rather silly considering there's already enough AI problems: we don't need AIs that purposely wont do any research or colonize new systems because of a pact.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That's space yards.

Also remove the no bombardment option, until the AI is able to use troops effectively.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Captain Kwok, with all due respect I think it is more logical to build the Resupply Depots first. Either way it is six turns until the colony is building "revenue" generating facilities, assuming no emergency build. If you build the Resupply first then 3 of those 6 turns the planet will be generating supply and ordnance. If the Spaceport is 1st then it just sits there providing no value for 3 turns while Resupply is being built.

The one exception that I use is when another very high value planet in the same system will be colonized and have it's first facility complete in less than 6 turns. In that case I will build the Spaceport first, but only if I need the resources pretty urgently. Probably too complex a decision for the AI though.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I did place the RDs first but for some reason the AI wouldn't get to building a spaceport for a much longer time and lots of resources would be lost when other planets were colonized - although this is not what should have happened. I did note at the time though there was some resource issues and dropped construction so I'll have to do more testing to identify the cause. But I agree that is the most "human" behaviour to build the RD first.

It's not really possible to have the AI to use the "hop" method of colonizing to claim as much space as possible because you can't explicity tell it to build a colony ship at the frontier colony etc.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Thinking about Frontier Space Yards concept, I came up with this idea:

lst_Frontier_WarpPoints : int

which is a count of warp point space objects in colonized systems that don't lead to other colonized systems.

I'm not sure how sorting works in this game; is it parallel lists? If so, it might be possible to sort a list of colonies, filtered by spaceyard, on lst_Frontier_WarpPoints.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The script already marks "frontier" WPs as those that are not explored or ones that are connected to systems owned by other empires. The code is in the Fx[Examine_Solar_System] in Script_AI_Lists.txt which marks them for primary and secondary "patrol" locations. They are also interpreted as locations to drop satellites, mines, and build bases if SY Ships are around.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Not sure if I'm reading this right, but it looks like after executing Examine_Solar_System which contains:<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> // Warp Points to unseen systems or systems with enemies.
if (plr_has_colony) then
if (not Sys_Have_Seen_System(sys_long_Player_ID, dest_sys)) or (lst_AI_Enemy_System_Strengths.Get(dest_sys) &gt; 0) then
call lst_AI_Patrol_System.add(sys_index)
call lst_AI_Patrol_Sector.add(wp_sect)
else
// Warp Points in system where we have colonies to systems where we don't.
if (not Sys_Player_Has_Colony_In_System(sys_long_Player_ID , dest_sys)) then
call lst_AI_Patrol_Secondary_System.add(sys_index)
call lst_AI_Patrol_Secondary_Sector.add(wp_sect)
endif
endif
endif</pre><hr />
will result in lst_AI_Patrol_System with a list of frontier systems, and lst_AI_Patrol_Secondary_System will contain a list of adjoining unexplored/enemy systems.

If so, then maybe we get/sort a list of colony shipyards that are in PatrolSystems. Then that list of shipyards would be well suited for expansion colony ships

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I'm holding out a lot of hope for this mod. Because really, I've given up on the base game. Hopefully y'all can get the AI sorted out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Excellent news. I compiled the scripts I made earlier today when I got home and the difference is amazing. The only problem now is that the AI is not finding planets fast enough to colonize!

Here are the turn 25 stats of a test game with AI low bonus only:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...-ai-turn25.png

As soon as I fix up the silly treaty business I'll upload the new version.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That is a sight for sore eyes.

As far as I'm concerned, this *is* stock. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Ooooh, excellent! Kwok saves the day( and the game).

When the research paths have been optimized this should definitely be considered for a stock-patch IMO. 1.08 stock is frankly a joke.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Compare and contrast. Turn 25 of version 0.91. Same settings as Kowk. I'd changed settings so that planets and warp points can be seen without exploring a system, to aid the AI in it's finding planets to colonise (I'd notice it not exploring systems, and just leaving a ship at the warp point for a bit then sending it home, thus leaving potentual breathable atmosphere planets just out of sight.) Without that, I don't the AI would even have done this well.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f373/timward/AI25.jpg

(No, I wasn't trying very hard, just spamming colony ships and moving a few frigates I built around. still got third.)

You'll notice that the top rated AI player has a score lower than the lowest ranked AI player in latest version. And that was the Eee, who should benefit more from being able to see all the planets. No other AI came close.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

You fixing the issue with the AI not researching ship sizes further for this release Kwok?

I'm a little worried the AI is building too many units, though. Fine in SE4, but here where we have maintenance etc., how will the AI fare late-game? I'm guessing it's unlikely he'll go pick up his deployed satellites etc. and retrofit them? So he'll probably have uncountable wastly outdated units everywhere sucking up his resources with maintenance, unless there's a heavy AI bonus.

Also, lots of units with maintenance really diminish his ability to be offensive as he'll have to cut down on real attack ships.

Thoughts?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Kwok, could you please include the csf source? I'd like to compile empires based on your modified include scripts.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Unit maintenance is dumb it seems. How do i turn it off?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

settings.txt:

Empire Starting Unit Percent Maint Cost := 0

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

This is wonderful news. Thank you Captain Kwok, for your excellent work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Edit: Can this be changed mid save game w/o issue?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I've posted v0.92 for download:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

I did a quick tweak to the AI research files to push some of the ship techs ahread. I always temporarily disabled some of the treaty elements until I can figure out how to change them appropriately - so *in theory* the AI shouldn't offer harmful things like no research or "one-way" treaty elements. Let me know if you see otherwise.

I will make the source scripts available shortly.

Changelog:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.92 (24 October 2006)
------------------------------

1. Changed - Made adjustments to supply and ordnance amounts for weapons
2. Changed - Removed or reduced to-hit modifiers for Point-Defense weapons
3. Fixed - Restored accuracy at range modifier for Phased-Polaron Beam
4. Changed - Bonuses from GovernmentTypes.txt to reduce riots and rebellions
5. Changed - Reduced size of happiness bonuses in SocietyTypes.txt
6. Changed - Reduced Recreational Services cultural achievement to 5 levels
7. Fixed - Error in damage at accuracy decrease for Ionic Disperser
8. Changed - Only the most recent type of Plague Bomb will appear now
9. Changed - Increase Resupply Depot amounts for supply and ordnance
10. Fixed - Error in Wave-Motion Gun tech requirement
11. Fixed - Error in movement amount for Large Organic Freighter
12. Changed - Added "Ordnance Generation" ability to Ordnance Storage to counter Ordnance bug in 1.08 (Temporary Fix)
13. Changed - Reduced Ship Maint to 20%, Unit and Facility Maint to 5%
14. Changed - Starting reproduction rate to 5% from 10%
15. Changed - Increased starting storage amount to 100000
16. Changed - Minor tweaks to AI research and politics
17. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

First bug, Viral Bomb, Plague Bomb, Nanovirus Bomb etc., are now available from the start O_O Level 4 starting plague sounds sort of overpowered.

The Nanovirus Bomb also has 25 damage at 300 range? Shouldn't the range on those bombs be sort of short?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Oops. Two faulty entries are responsible for the little plague bomb error. I'll fix it up for v0.93. The range wasn't defined in the file, but it should be 150-200 when it's fixed.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The mod looks like it could be interesting. I've not played it yet (that's next http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but a few comments/suggestions:

a) I'm using winmerge to compare it to stock SEV, and its noting that apart from the header comment and the tail comment that the "BitmapEffects_*" files are all identical to the stock release. Odd.
This is also true to for the AtmosphereTypes, Happiness, IntelFocusAreas, ScoreWeighting, VehicleUnitTypes, XFileClasses_Stellar .txt files. :?:

b) I note you've added another colony type "resource colony". Might I suggest one last colony type: "Miscellaneous Colony" (or some such) for when your colony can't fit any of the other.

c) The order of the colony types always seemed a little off to me as there was obvious pattern for the order they're layed out it. So I changed it to this:
Seems more logical now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


d) You've altered the number of engines required for a ship to move. But I note an inconsistancy. Specifically the destroyer requires 3 engines per move yet has a max of 7 engines. I'm guessing that 7th is a spare. Yet neither the cruiser, battleship or lght carrier have that spare engine.

Also, the dreadnaught &amp; carrier require 10 engines yet have a capacity for 16? That's a lot of spares - more than the baseship (3), but less than the hvy carrier (8)



A suggestion relating to the AI discussion above - Does the AI both prioritizing research for colonisation of different world types? Because if he can colonise other world types, he's just doubled/tripled the number of worlds available to him.

But it certainly looks like a nice mod. Off to go and break it now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Edit: What are the .csf file types? A quick google finds nothing and there is no reference on the wiki that I can see.