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-   -   Mid Era Orania (STARTED) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32128)

Catquiet December 11th, 2006 04:53 AM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Vanheim merely wishes to share the benefits of democracy with the people of Arcoscephale. (One Van, One Vote). A few misguided arcos may resist, but in the end Vanheim shall prevail, for we have the power of God and alliteration on our side.
-------
"Verily, our Vanjarls and Vanadrotts shall vouchsafe the virtues of victory, for they are both versatile and vigorous"
V for Vanheim

Tyrant December 11th, 2006 06:00 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 

Nice posts Baalz and Cat.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Baalz, I have to say you are a very amusing writer for somone with such a juvenile screen name.

Could we perhaps get an updated list of the players and nations? I'm a bit confused about who ended up playing what.

Evilhomer December 13th, 2006 09:12 AM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
What happened to pangea ?

Die51 December 13th, 2006 01:49 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
For reals. I have a nail biting war going on againt Ermor, and I am running out of my fingers at this point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Strages Sanctus December 13th, 2006 02:15 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
I tried connecting last night around 6pm PST and had no luck. My pretender and last remaining commanders are holed up in a single province so there is not much I can do. Staling would be the same as what I would do anyway unless I throw myself at a surrounding province http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Edit. I still would have loved to play my turn to send some messages and feed my remaining gems in apology to another nation.

Evilhomer December 13th, 2006 02:26 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
your turn is still not up since there is no quick host, so just finish it asap.

Baalz December 13th, 2006 02:47 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
<edit>
Nevermind, didn't see the post from Pangea

Strages Sanctus December 13th, 2006 02:54 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
I won't be home until 6pm PST 8 hrs from now. I won't be offended if you want to host so people can take their next turn.

DrPraetorious December 13th, 2006 05:33 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Stages:
I have the master password, so I just took your turn for you. Doesn't look good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Turn 25 is now up.

Strages Sanctus December 13th, 2006 05:57 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
thanks, aye at least I am protecting the Oak tree as my last gasp as pangaea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Die51 December 13th, 2006 06:11 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Intercepted letter from Ulm to Ermor:

I say this in the utmost respect and disgust for your people.

"Ow."

-The Ancient One

DrPraetorious December 13th, 2006 06:32 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
He drinks deeply of the crisp, cool air at the peak of the mighy iron fortress of Ulm.

"Victory!" he proclaims over the rolling mountain peaks and green valleys. All the power of ulmish industry is now *his* to command, the prophet of the True God, Knife Bright Insight!

At this moment, a voice roars from the clear air.

--Prophet! Return thou eastward with dispatch! The vile forces of the false God of R'lyeh march to our very gates!--

A moment later the voice is gone.

The prophet cries out in rage. He pulverizes a bit of stone from the damaged battlement in a black gloved fist. "Centurion!"

"Yes, mighty one?"

"The legions march eastward. R'lyeh is preparing to lay siege to the capital."

The centurion stammers, "but, lord, we have all but finished off Ulm..."

"God has commanded this, and we shall obey."

The centurion bows his head. "It shall be as you say, Lord."

Saluting, the lord of the legion heads for the stairwell back into the mighty fortress of Ulm, and bellows for his century. "Praetorians! On your feet! We march!"

Evilhomer December 13th, 2006 07:28 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Somewhere deep in the halls of R'lyeh..

They will not understand, the smallfolk of the seas and land. He knows what they will say:

"How can we kill that which is already dead"
and
"this task is folly we should have stayed in the seas and prospered".

But then they do not understand the ways of war, and he will say what he always says:

"Find currage, we fight for the glory of mighty R'lyeh and the true god Saabish Kaah."

And what choice did he have? To abandon a friend who is rich in gems and abandon even more lands to the plague of the undead ?

This was not a war he wished for, but R'lyeh will prevail like they always have, and in strange eons like these even death may die.

-from the thoughts of Urnammu, the prophet of the only true god.

Die51 December 13th, 2006 10:10 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
A voice is lifted and heard across the lands of Ulm

"The heathens have taken your home, your capital! They use vile magic to raise our fallen as undead minions!

Very well, I say. While they wasted their forces on our castle, our allies from the sea and the air have struck! Their forces are in panic, weeping scared!

We shall show them a whole new level of terror. Rally, my people! March back onto our lands! They took our castle, let it serve as their graves! Not a single infidel may be allowed to escape and harm our freinds of the air and sea. Show them why people near and far regard our soldiers as the finest in this world! Show them the power of the one, true god."

Tyrant December 14th, 2006 02:38 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Nice writing guys.

Waiting for Pan again.

Evilhomer December 14th, 2006 02:41 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
We always waiting for pan it seems...

Strages Sanctus December 14th, 2006 02:48 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Are you all in Europe? I am at work again for the next 8 hours
Maybe I have the IP wrong? Is the server up and running at 6-8pm PST?

Sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif same issue as last night. Maybe I wrote down the IP wrong when I changed to play a blitz game...

Strages Sanctus December 14th, 2006 10:31 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
I am trying to connect and having no luck

160.39.37.114
11113

Reverend Zombie December 14th, 2006 11:33 PM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
No luck for me, either.

DrPraetorious December 15th, 2006 12:14 AM

Re: Mid Era, fiddled version of Orania
 
Yeah, I just got back home and I'm wasted - [censored] Bill Gates.

If I have to move it over to one of the Linux boxes I will. Sorry about this, I have no idea what happened to this windows install, it's a new hard drive I just brought like a month and a half ago.

In the interim, my server isn't working - when it's fixed I'll post the new IP address. Sorry.

DrPraetorious December 15th, 2006 03:07 PM

Ready to form Voltron!
 
Activate Interlock! Dynatherms Connected! Infracells Up! Megathrusters Are Go! Let's Go Voltron Force!

IPaddr: 160.39.37.111
port: 11113

Note that only the last byte of the IP addr has changed.

Tyrant December 15th, 2006 04:12 PM

Re: Ready to form Voltron!
 
That was fast! Thanks Dr. P.

DrPraetorious December 16th, 2006 07:09 PM

Re: Ready to form Voltron!
 
Augh! That's what I get for taking a turn while wasted. I left half of my army in the middle of nowhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

And I think I'm about to be attacked by a third person, unless that army on my border is strictly there for advisory purposes.... if anyone else wants to attack either the apes or r'lyeh - even if you have no desire to help me - their armies are entirely engaged in trying to divide up my territory.

In fact, I'd be willing to send skull mentors as a bribe to anyone who's willing to snatch up some provinces.

DrPraetorious December 17th, 2006 12:09 PM

Re: Ready to form Voltron!
 
I am instituting a 48 hr host interval. Obviously I would like for turns to happen more often than that, if possible.

Baalz December 19th, 2006 01:15 AM

Mother of all battles
 
The mother of all battles was joined this month.

Our campaign against van aggression has been short, but bloody. Initially our mystics were confident that arcane might would stop these fae horsemen in their tracks, but they drastically underestimated the raw power of the Vanheim war machine. As large groups of our scholars struggled to form a communion the mighty van horsemen blasted straight through the ranks of our stout phalanxes and most heinously slew our mages. So fast were these shifty horsemen that the mages had time not even to slay a handful with their arcane strength.

Several bloody months followed where this scene was repeated ad nauseam, with province after province falling in rapid succession. It would seem the van armies were unstoppable. Our only consolation was that many of our best provinces held strong fortresses, within which our forces withdrew in order to formulate a new plan. We were able to fight off the van’s smaller parties through arcane might, but their primary host would ride right over our heaviest infantry without pausing long enough to be properly blasted. This sad series of events culminated in the fall of the great citadel in Arcoscephale itself. Our council of scholars met, and the greatest minds of our time desperately tried to come up with some way to stave off the total fall of our civilization. They came up with a last ditch plan and threw everything they had into reclaiming our capital, for a king who cannot defend his own home is not worthy of being called a king.

The greatest wizards in our empire formed up and marched on the great citadel, protected behind rows of every able bodied man who could be found. The vans contemptuously rode out to break the siege and ride down yet another group of feeble old men. Our army paled, seeing a force over 300 strong, including massive numbers of mighty van horsemen bearing down on their scant 100, all afoot. Sensing Arcoscephale itself hung in the balance our righteous god Baal in a mighty divine stroke broke free of the prison and materialized in this plane before the Vanhiem army, proclaiming that the vans would not pass [ed note: I kid you not, my god broke free this turn and appeared in my home province to lend a hand in this huge battle totally unscritped].

A pregnant pause held on the battlefield as this divine presence was absorbed, then with a cry the van host broke into a charge. Coming to their senses, the Arcoscephale communion quickly began to form. A pair of priestess were able to join the communion through crystal matrixes and quickly began to howl arcanely to summon packs of wolves to our aid, while a pair of mystic pyromancers summoned will ‘o wisps from the realm of fire. This strategy worked beautifully, the wolves appeared surrounding the Vanheim host and the will ‘o wisps flicked around their flanks completely dissolving their charge as the army ran in all directions attacking these new threats. As the Vanjarls blasted lightning at the wolves, our wizards completed their communion and empowerment spells.

A great flock of black hawks descended on us, attempting to break the mage’s concentration. Our ranks of heavy spear were able to easily repel them though as the huge form of Baal the Nataraja stormed back to help them. The vans realized their mistake and attempted to reform their lines, but it was too late. Massive meteors crashed down from the heavens into their ranks, as molten lava burst from the ground underneath, and huge pillars of insidious astral flames burst into existence all around them and huge clouds of spinning blades were sent careening towards them. Insult was piled atop injury as their very own troops began to turn on them when their minds were enslaved by our master astrologists.

Incredibly, the massive van host barreled through this inferno, bearing down upon our communion with deadly intent. Then stepped forward the huge and terrible form of Baal, leading our now heavily enchanted phalanxes to meet this charge with a mighty cry of defiance. Despite the grievous damage inflicted upon them the vans are truly impressive warriors, charging straight through the jaws of arcane hell to engage us. Fortunately, our great communion enabled not only our mages to invoke truly amazing spells, it also allowed unparalleled endurance and they were able to continue the brutal pace of absolute destruction. Even STILL the vans persisted, as Baal lay about himself with all four arms of righteous fury and the very heavens vomited burning death upon them. Just as it seemed they may even yet prevail despite all the fury sorcery could bring to bear, as Baal stood grievously wounded and 70% of our infantry lay dead….the vans broke. Those unholy bastards broke, and broke hard, riding for the hills pursued by the fires of heaven.

Then the other jaw of our plan swung shut, and our secondary, much smaller army invaded the only province to which the vans could flee, preceded by a wave of astrological mind hunts which destroyed the few enemy commanders which were present. Our small army conquered the province without a fight, and slaughtered the vans which tried to retreat from the mother of all battles.

Now, Vanheim, doom is upon you. Baal’s divine fury points at your very heart, and the heavens line up against you. You shall pay for all you have done.

Catquiet December 19th, 2006 08:23 AM

Re: Mother of all battles
 
"'Ungrateful' is the word that comes to mind. Much gold and many lives have been spent in the effort to bring civilization and order to primitive tribes of Arcoscephale. Yet how are we repaid? With vicious attacks and vile sorcery." -- Granlodner, brigadier general in the Vanheim military

"The dark god Baal, once justly imprisioned for his horrific crimes, has broken free and men of ill intent rally to his cause. Woe unto the lands, that must suffer Baal's cruel footsteps once more. Woe unto the Vans, so many cut down in their prime. Woe unto us all, who must witness Evil triumphant ." -- dying words of Bjarke, high priest of Vanheim, tragically lost in the battle of Arcoscephale

Tyrant December 19th, 2006 11:11 PM

Re: Mother of all battles
 
"[ed note: I kid you not, my god broke free this turn and appeared in my home province to lend a hand in this huge battle totally unscritped]."

I was wondering why your god was fighting nekkid this late in the game.

DrPraetorious December 22nd, 2006 02:37 PM

Re: Mother of all battles
 
There will be no timed hosting until January. Enjoy Christmas while you can, peons!

Baalz December 28th, 2006 01:58 PM

A new hope
 
Arcoscephale’s two-front war rages on. The Vanheim generals have proven every bit as tough and resourceful as the vans themselves. Counter, parry, feint, our dance goes on in a desperate struggle of well matched adversaries. After crushing their original army I knew it would be scant time before a fresh wave of Vanheim aggression crested our shores. Though the Arcoscephale great communion was able to slay the majority of Van power, a huge flock of black hawks continue to hold our home citadel, and our mage’s lacking in physical strength are unable to bring the walls down, we suspect stealthy vans are sneaking in to bolster the defense. As we sieged our own home, and watched the Vanheim reinforcements march closer, Man continued to nibble away at our borders completely unopposed. Despite our desperate press against Vanheim, I just could not allow our kingdom to be eroded in this fashion, so while I held the bulk of our power close at hand, I commissioned secondary and tertiary armies to press back along our more distant borders. Our tertiary armies consisted of small squads which pushed south into the land of the apes, to attempt and assist our Caelum friends in bringing civilization to the savages, while hopefully replacing some of the territories lost in our prolonged war. Our secondary army marched north, to deal some long overdue retribution to the armies of Man.

Seeing that much of Man’s strength was composed of powerful, but weak willed elephants, much of the secondary army was composed of astral mages, defended by hoplite phalanxes. As the armies of Man lined up on the battlefield, their powerful longbowmen began to fire from close proximity to their elephant corps, in an effort to soften us up before the elephants finished us off. As their first volley hung in the air, they realized their peril as many of the elephants turned towards the unprotected archers with freshly murderous intent. It was a red rout, with the majority of Arcoscephale casualties being the tragic result of having too few communion slaves to effectively share the strain of all the mind enslaving. Happily, the second engagement with Man went even better, as more communion slaves were sent forth, and now Man’s elephants march back into their territory under new masters. Our army grows with every encounter, though a deluge of seeking arrows fall upon us, presumably Man’s desperate attempt to slow the vengeance which advances to reclaim Arcoscephale land. Happily, our army consists of enough mages that this is no more than a nuisance, our priestesses heal the afflictions of those that survive, and the few that die are replaced quickly.

Meanwhile, our primary forces continue to match stroke for stroke with Vanheim. Seeing that the siege was not progressing, and operating under the strategy of not remaining where our enemy knew us to be we marched to intercept a largish Vanheim army before they could combine with others to overwhelm us, leaving a token force of mercenaries to maintain the siege. This worked even better than anticipated, as our decoy mercenaries were set upon by great eagles equipped with medallions of vengeance, obviously hoping to decimate our communion. Instead, they decimated our militia mercenaries in an all out kamikaze raid. There were no great eagle survivors. One province over, our main army slew and enslaved the bulk of a Vanheim army seiging another of our castles, sadly at substantial loss of life as the Vanheim general has adjusted his tactics to much more effectively target our mages. Powerful troll and dwarvish earth mages create earthquakes and shower us with clouds of blades, deadly to our lightly armored mages. We will need to push into Vanheim land before these strategies are able to be expanded. Thankfully, our god personally leads this army, thus victory is assured.

Reverend Zombie December 28th, 2006 03:09 PM

Re: A new hope
 
Quote:

Baalz said:


Seeing that much of Man’s strength was composed of powerful, but weak willed elephants, much of the secondary army was composed of astral mages, defended by hoplite phalanxes....Happily, the second engagement with Man went even better, as more communion slaves were sent forth, and now Man’s elephants march back into their territory under new masters.

Quite nicely done! I respect the power of Enslave Mind as never before.

Baalz December 28th, 2006 03:31 PM

Re: A new hope
 
Hehe, it works a WHOLE lot less effectively against very magic resistant vans.... But then again, what doesn't? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Probably be a little easier to resist as the fighting leads outside of my strong magic dominion. In our second fight, did you see that one damn elephant...the one who freshly enslaved decided to immediately rout right back through my wizards? *groan*

Baalz December 30th, 2006 07:58 PM

Re: A new hope
 
Apparently Vanheim feels that a two on one fight it unfair, so they have brought a second ally in against us. First Vanheim’s summoned trolls descended on us and with a mighty double WHAM two earthquakes slew many of our wizards. Our forces were able to still carry the day, but there was substantial loss of life. Before the survivors can pull back for reinforcements Marignon’s pretender god teleports in. The huge burning head of a baphomet appeared in front of our army, and promptly unleashed a firestorm over the entire battlefield. As our troops closed in huge sheets of flame were vomited out, slaying dozens at a time. Thankfully, the brave soldiers of Arcoscephale are made of sterner stuff than the Marignon cowards realized, for they pressed on despite the terrible flames and several mighty blows were struck against the abomination, including one which festered into a disease immediately. Seeing his doom personified as Baal strode up, the cowardly Marignon pretender turned tail and fled. Considering the distance to Marignon territory, I can’t imagine that turned out well for him. The siege of the great Arcoscephale citadel continues…

Meanwhile, the lands of Man continue to fall as we reclaim the lands which were stolen while we focused on the Vanheim threat. Man marshals a huge host of archers and knights, but my generals tell me that they’ve adjusted their strategy and should have no trouble slaying ten thousand more until all our lands are liberated. In the heartland Vanheim raids continue to be a thorn, but our astrologers hunt their minds on the astral currents and slay them whenever they are found. It should not be long before there will be no amount of money that can be paid to convince a raider try and sneak through Arcoscepale lands. Still, this three front war is starting to wear on the people, I wonder how much longer we can carry on.

Baalz December 30th, 2006 08:41 PM

Re: A new hope
 
Got a message that Bandar Log was defeated, but looks like the server is waiting for him to take a turn...

DrPraetorious December 30th, 2006 09:51 PM

Re: A new hope
 
Yes, that is odd.... anyway I took his non-turn for him.

Once Caelum sends his turn in I'm taking the server down for routine maintanence and HD backup. It'll be down for 12 hrs or so at most.

FAJ December 31st, 2006 01:46 AM

Re: A new hope
 
It is indeed unfortunate that the Baphomet was diseased by the one little weapon that struck him. I have placed a massive dunce cap on him and he sits in the corner and awaits feeble-mindedness.

I am upset that he disobeyed my given orders, so to punish him I am sending him against an army of illithids the next chance I get http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif.

DrPraetorious December 31st, 2006 04:20 AM

Re: A new hope
 
The server will be down overnight.

Baalz December 31st, 2006 11:02 AM

Re: A new hope
 
Out of curiousity, how is it that he survived? It seems like he would have been lost retreating into enemy territory, that didn't happen?

FAJ December 31st, 2006 11:32 AM

Re: A new hope
 
The Baphomet has zero movement. He needs to teleport around, so I set him to cast Ritual of Returning as his last given spell. Cuts down on the ownage, because he only gets to stick around for 4-5 rounds, I think he could have wiped out that army, but then he would have been stranded without a lab to move around. I kind of hoped that the one or two swipes that the enemy would get in wouldn't disease him.

Best laid plans... (stupid trolls http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif)

Die51 December 31st, 2006 12:15 PM

Re: A new hope
 
The anticipation waiting for this next turn is driving me nuts.
Got a huge battle hanging in the balance consisting of most everything I have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

DrPraetorious December 31st, 2006 02:19 PM

Re: A new hope
 
Server is back up. That's all you had?

Die51 December 31st, 2006 11:03 PM

Re: A new hope
 
You moved off of my capital. Killed my raiding army, as 'everything I had' raided the then empty province of my capital.

You are good btw. Gotta give you congrats on that. Rocking my world.

DrPraetorious January 3rd, 2007 08:36 PM

Re: A new hope
 
48 hr host interval is now up.

Baalz January 4th, 2007 03:55 PM

Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
The fourth and final piece of the axis of evil has shown their hand. An army of the dead march into our territories as Vanheim continues to worry its hold on our neck like a bull dog. The armies of Man march against us, and it is only a matter of time before Marignon attempts more arcane strikes into our empire. Dark times indeed, my friends.

The horns have sounded, and an army marches forth to oppose the walking dead. Behind their vast legions a communion of Therugs hopes to match the power of our own communions, enslaving the will of free men so that they have no more mind than the shuffling long dead they march beside. They are in for a sad shock however, Arcoscoscephale has more than one trick up its sleeve. This battle should be joined in another month or two and, Baal willing, we will push back into the lands of the dead to teach them the lesson that the bloody noses of their allies tell and relieve the press applied to our Ulmish friends.

Good news on the western front. The hosts of Man have had their back broken as their leadership withers under a massive assault of mind hunts, their vine ogres crumble and brave knights left orderless. Everywhere their provinces fall and their castles are stormed as our Caelish allies help us rid the world of this misguided nation. They should be put out of their misery soon. Elsewhere our raiders push into Marginon land in an attempt to aid our aquatic friends in their battle with the fundamentalist zealots. As there come to be less and less lands of Man to conquer, more of our forces will push in and exact some vengeance for the foul sneak attack perpetrated several months past. Hopefully our monstrous allies will then be in a better position to aid in the overall war effort. One last annoyance from Man is the bards which attempt to spread discontent among our lands. Thus far they have been a mere annoyance, but if their numbers continue to grow they may require more of a direct response.

In the heartlands, the tale grows grimmer. With our forces pulled in so many directions Vanheim continues to slowly, methodically, inexorably capture our castles. Their hosts are vast, and their efforts tireless. Once the nation of Man is consigned to the history books and our war heroes return there will be hell to pay, but for the time being the castellans utilize stalling tactics and shell games to slow the advance to a manageable level. Their main host fears to split, so there should be time for reinforcements to arrive as our raiders bloody some of their own homelands. Sadly, we remain unable to recapture the great citadel in our capital as the cowardly Vanir maintain a flock of near 500 black hawks working feverishly to repair any damage to the walls. On other fronts, the van raiders tremble as they once again become the target of the mind hunts. In the time it took to chastise Man they have once again come to infest us like fleas. Ah well, as one master astrologist was heard to say this just makes for a target rich environment.

FAJ January 4th, 2007 06:34 PM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
Your posts need cliff notes dude!

Die51 January 5th, 2007 03:37 AM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
Cliff notes:

Ermor, Marignon, Man, and Vanheim smell bad.

R'lyeh, Caelum, and Arco rule.

Ulm is kinda pathetic but we like them anyways.

FAJ January 5th, 2007 04:11 AM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
Phase 1: Marignon layeth the smackdown
Phase 2:
Phase 3: Profit

DrPraetorious January 5th, 2007 12:31 PM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
QHing is back on.

Sorry about that.

DrPraetorious January 9th, 2007 02:46 AM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
Server will be down briefly for routine maintanence.

Baalz January 9th, 2007 02:59 AM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
Not sure if it's a bug, me doing something completely retarded, or something more nefarious, but somehow on both my major battles this turn my large groups of mages got placed in front of my infantry. What a thoroughly depressing turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

DrPraetorious January 9th, 2007 03:41 AM

Re: Ever been squished like a pimple?
 
Nefarious? You have a password set, I assume?

If you put a commander inside the square of a squad, behavior can be erratic. Also, they are relative positions.... it can do strange things.


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