Re: Dud nations
 

For my Classical Japan mod, I plan on using an area-1 attack Ballista that has a Fear effect attached to ths shot (think of the Howling Bow from LE TC). May be a small point, but the controversy surrounding the O-yumi I'd have to include. :p

Re: Dud nations
 

MA TC = MA Ulm but worse. And that's just horrible.

Re: Dud nations
 

It doesn't seem to me that MA TC is much like MA Ulm. TC has much more varied magic, sacred national summons, varied cavalry, decent light infantry with StratMove 2, immortal heroes, good composite bow archers who can fight in melee... and it has no drain thing nor low MR, no forge bonus, etc...

As for the comment someone made earlier about MA Ulm getting elephant-rushed... I'm more worried about trampling when I'm EA Ulm (especially from Caelum). As MA Ulm, just send in the arbalests, set to fire at large monsters...

Re: Dud nations
 

MA TC also has 12 morale Imperial troops, crossbows/composite bows, light and medium cavalry, ect.

If you look at a nation and say "what kind of casters does it have", and that's what determines if this nation is "hot or not", yea, you might be dissapointed with MA TC vs. EA TC. But then, you'll not ever be playing a national-troop themed nation, ever, anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Dud nations
 

Really, one way to 'fix' Ulm's 'issues' would be to implement 'national items' like other national spells. This, unfortunately, cannot be done AFAIK in a mod etc.

Closest would be to create national summons of 'normal' commanders that already have the equipment load-out you desire, correct?

Re: Dud nations
 

Oh, and Bandar Log isn't even close to Marverni in suckiness. Bandar warriors are versitile and can fill multiple roles. Vanara infantry are cheap and you can spam an army of them quickly. You get a 3 Astral caster by default.

Re: Dud nations
 

I played a good bit of a game with endoperez mod.

I like the noble used as a prophet, and the warlord, but the low mr is the main problem and that is not addressed. And the warlord is a bit slow. Even with a the small upgrade in the mod, I do not think i would ever enjoy playing Ulm.

Re: Dud nations
 

Be patient, my Ulm mod is 78% finished ... ;-)

Re: Dud nations
 

You could just play an infantry nation that doesn't have low MR as a theme.

Re: Dud nations
 

well

my favorite nation is Pangaea, they have tough units, wide variety, and high mr. At times i play arcos. soley for its tough infantry.

I would like to play Ulm, for a change of pace, but they are too handicapped.

Re: Dud nations
 

MA Ulm mod "Black Steel of Ulm" v2.0 is finished

Check out the mod subforum!

Re: Dud nations
 

I agree with Baalz about EA Ryleh; I actually won an MP game with that nation. The strength of the Aboleths is in Mind Lord SCs- one random earth pick and some research will give you a truly fearsome AOE life-draining SC that can be fielded very early in the game. Later in the game, your Mind Lord and Golem SCs can teleport around wreaking havoc. Unfortunately, lobo guards are your only real troop option, and they are not so good. You live and die by your SCs as EA Ryleh.

As an aside, the first nation I eliminated in that MP game was EA Ulm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud nations
 

Ok, here's chart showing my opinion of the strongest through the weakest nations in EA. If anyone wants to contradict me, voice an opinion, post their own chart, whatever, please feel free.

1: Strongest nation in the game: Helheim

2 Vanheim, Caelum, Lanka, Niefelheim, Tien Chi, Oceanea, Mictlan.

3: Abysia, Kailasa, Pangaea, Sauromatia

4: Arcoscephale, Ermor, C'tis

5: Yomi, Atlantis,

6: Marverni, Ulm

7: Agartha

8: R'lyeh

I don't think I missed any. Let's see what peoples' opinions are, and maybe it'll help determine the triage order for dud nations.

Re: Dud nations
 

Marverni?

Re: Dud nations
 

How is Oceania tier 2 and Rlyeh dead last? Oceania sucks almost as much as Rlyeh does at getting out of the water and access to a lot of astral magic gives Rlyeh a decided late-game advantage.

Marignon also doesn't exist, and you used the number 2 twice. I think Ulm is also a lot better than you have them down as.

Re: Dud nations
 

Sorry, I mixed up Marignon with Marverni-they sound alike.

Re: Dud nations
 

Oceanea is 2 because if they were land-based, they'd pwn the game-they definitely pwn the oceans. They're on the same level as Helheim, if you take away the land/water factor, with slightly worse magic paths but slightly tougher sacreds. I guess you could move them down a bit because they're aquatic, but they're still a really solid nation.

Ulm and Marverni I ranked where I did more based on external factors than internal composition. They're balanced really well against themselves, but too many nations go through them like tissue-paper to call them strong. I've played them lots, and I enjoy them, but I can't give them a lot of love, because they're just not that tough. Atlantis and Yomi are tenacious and difficult to take out quickly, even in an early game, while Ulm and Marverni can be swept away by a tough nation-like Helheim-in the early game, unless they're well established-but that's just my opinion from playing them.

Re: Dud nations
 

1) Agreed, Helheim by far the strongest nation, full stop.

2) Mine are Vanheim, Caelum, Neifelheim, Atlantis, Lanka, Mictlan, Abysia, Tien Chi, Pangaea.

3) Then Kalisa, Sauromatia, Arco, Ermor, C'tis, R'yleh, Agartha, Oceania, Yomi.

4) Ulm, Marverni.

Re: Dud nations
 

Strong EA nations in my experience:
Helheim, Vanheim, Niefelheim, Mictlan, Ulm, Agartha, Arco, Oceania, Caelum, Sauromatia, C'tis, Ermor

Yomi looks strong to me in SP but I haven't played as them in MP.

Other EA nations I don't have enough experience with to have a strong opinion about their overall strength.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think Yomi could stand more national spells and summons-specifically some different kinds of Dai Oni types, maybe a high level Oni version of the Demon Lords with 3 different unique types. It'd be fun and welcome to see Dai Onis with different abilities, graphics, and starting equipment, even if they were all more or less equal in power. It would just add a bit to the interest and flavor of the nation.

I don't think I'd quite call them a "dud-nation", but they are a bit lame after playing them for a while, not because they're not interesting, but because I don't think enough has been done with them-I think a lot more could be done in terms of flavor and diversity of units and spells.

They really lend themselves, thematically, to national spells and summons, in my opinion, and there's so many interesting effects for demonic Asian magic to have.

Re: Dud nations
 

I also think yomi could do with a bit more variety, although they are fairly strong but quite boring(there arent a large number of ways to play them).

Re: Dud nations
 

That's what I'm saying. They aren't underpowered, they're just not flavored to the full capacity of the theme.

Re: Dud nations
 

What is the reason that marverni is concidered so weak.

There druids are great mages. Astral, earth and nature seems like a great combination of magic. (eagle eyes + gifts from heaven for example) And the Ambinite warriors have good stats for their cost.

Re: Dud nations
 

Yeah, Druids can be quite useful, but they take more research points to get going than do other casters, and they make *no research boosting items whatsoever*. So you probably don't survive to reach the mid-game, which other people achieve before you do.

Their military is just mildly inferior, but the mages are their real problem. They take too long to get off the ground - the other human nations have a better military, AND they have earlier access to useful combat magic.

The Eponi Knight is decent - but he doesn't have a *lance*, which is a real problem, and you can't fight another player with a military made entirely of medium cav.

The rest of their military is only slightly inferior to equivalently priced Ermorian legionaires. They might look better on paper (they have a higher strength, and broad swords instead of short swords) but they don't have javelins and they don't have tower shields. This is a big problem for early expansion.

That said, I don't think Marverni *needs* a stonger military. If their Druids were more useful around turn 5 they'd be able to hold on - and later in the game, earth/astral/water/nature is a devastating tetrad.

I have a marverni fix mod with just extra national spells that I think does the trick well enough, but I'm hoping for some extra functionality in the next patch.

Re: Dud nations
 

I am playing marverni in a multiplayer game right now. I used the strategy of rushing to evocation 5 as quick as possible. But the fact that they don't have research boosters is begginning to be a problem.

I agree. I would rather see Marverni improverd with national spells, then troop boosting. But it would be nice if the game engine could also make better use of bare chested warriors. Then Marverni would be a very interesting nation to play.

Re: Dud nations
 

Here are some problems I've had with Marverni:

Ambibate Nobles are good warriors. However, they are not sacred, so if you build a ton of them, they will eat up a lot of maintenance. A combo I tried with Ambibate Nobles was to get Legions of Steel. That worked nicely. Except that once you get Legions of Steel, your casters will spam it on every unit you've got, even if it's a single Horn Blower sitting behind the ranks. Ambibate Nobles are expensive in terms of resources too. No way can you take any sloth.

The old age on Druids is a bit of a pain. Since Marverni has no blood/fire, it's difficult to stop them from aging. And they are expensive.

Researchers are weak/expensive. Really you've got to take at least Magic 1 to keep up in the research game. Since you have no Air/Death/Fire, you can't build ANY research items unless you get lucky with an indy.

You have no bows. Sure you can mass slingers or javelins, but then you are even more screwed with upkeep.

You have no national summons. (Devs, how about sending at least some Cu Sith love Marveni's way?)

Nature: It's quick to get a Gutater to N3 but you need Const 6 or empowerment to get him to N4 so you can make Ivy Kings.
A Lamia Queen would be much better but you've got no Death. Even if you could make 1 Lamia Queen with a Pretender, it can't make its own Lamia Queens. Firbolgs are great thugs, especially if you have a druid casting healing light.

Earth: Troll Kings are kind of cool. But you have to summon the whole court, and that's expensive.

Astral: Golems are cool. But they're way up in Const 7. Sorry, no Ether Lords, because you guessed it, no Death. Perhaps an Astal/Death pretender to let you conjure Ether Lords might be a good plan, since Marverni does have a nice Astral base to start. Ether Lords could then make more Ether Lords. But at 90 pearls a pop, I think you'd run out pretty soon.

You have no killer rituals. I suppose Baleful Star is not bad, way over in Alt 5. But Air gets Hurricane in Evo 4 (Evo 4 is killer of course), Blood gets Toads in Blood 3 (duh), and Death gets Burden in Thau 5. Fire gets Raging Hearts at Thau 5 too. If Marveni had Death, it would be cool to cast Blight, but, hey, no Death. Melancholia is a good spell -- for someone to cast on Marverni.

Anyway, I still play Marverni, even in MP, because I like the theme. I'd lose in any case because of my vast noobishness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Marverni also does just fine in SP, since it's a lot easier to put up another castle and pump out a bunch of stargazers to support your druids, and you probably don't have to worry about getting rushed on turn 9.

Re: Dud nations
 

That pretty much sums it up.

Marverni's a lot like my sorta sister-in-law. Marverni's a nice person (to us anyway), and we like Marverni, but Marverni doesn't have a lot of things going for it. Marverni's not real "together" and can't seem to hold down a job. We'd love to help Marverni out, and we do, but we're not giving Marverni any money or anything it could sell for cash, because that would be a mistake at this point. Marverni's got a real sweet kid though, and is an ok mother. Hopefully, someday, Marverni will straighten itself out, atleast for Marverni's kid's sake, but probably not if Marverni stays married to our sorta brother-in-law Ulm-who's even more of-let's face it-a loser than Marverni is.

Re: Dud nations
 

I don't see research as Marverni's problem, fairly cheap sacred researchers. Take magic 1 and you're set.

All druids should start with 1 nature, in addition to what they have now, cost stays the same. Not sure if it would really "fix" Marverni but it would be a good change IMO. Druids could then get 3 nature, and they wouldn't have old age.

National spells would be a cool way of helping Marverni.

Re: Dud nations
 

If Marverni don't have the early game power they should, one way to fix that is simply to give them a gold boosting site in their capital. It becomes less and less important as the game goes on, but in the initial rush it could help provide a mass of crazed warriors.

Re: Dud nations
 

Would it not be better to simply slash the price of the druids? They're hideously overpriced. For the same basic powers (6 magic, 2 holy), Marignon's grand master costs 270 gold, a difference of 110!

Re: Dud nations
 

I just noticed this on the 3.07 page

* Marverni & me Man temples cost 200

Well, that's nice for Marverni! It'll give them a little extra cash towards the druids. With a high dom Fountain of Blood and some sacrificing, they could do a nice dominion push too.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think it would be cool to give Marverni the ability to National Summon a "Menhir". A Menhir is a standing-stone, and the Druids were famous for them. They'd put them in places of power, kind of like Stonehenge, except just individual standing stones. If you made these immobile, but with a lot of HP and protection, and then gave them say 2 nature, 2 earth, 2 astral, they'd make great support-units and really help out Marverni's PD. It would be very thematic.

Marverni also worships trees, so-alternatively-maybe you could have "Menhirs" with 2 earth, 2 astral, susceptible to cold 25%, and "Rowans" (the Rowan tree was considered sacred and magical by the Celts, and it's a pretty name that balances well with the word "Menhir".) with 2 nature, 2 astral, susceptible to fire 25%, for sake of variety, additional theme, and interest.

The Celts were also a very large people, and had quite a few giants myths about them, so maybe a few of the high druids descended from giants or firbolgs. Maybe they could have a national summons that calls up one of these ancient giant druids with the same magic as a druid, but better stats and extended lifespan. Or maybe they can use astral magic ("using the power of their ancient stone circle to call up the spirit of one of the long dead giant henge-builders")to call up an undead giant warrior-chief with access to death-magic, so they have a death-magic "in".

Another nice national spell that fits in with Celtic myth would be the ability to summon the "Cauldron of Annwn". This is an enormous, iron witch's cauldron which would be immobile but extremely difficult to destroy-infact it could safely be immortal, once summoned-that would produce Banes, 1 per turn. The Cauldrons themselves would be Construction level 5 and require both Death 4 and Blood 4, 80 blood slaves and 80 death gems each. It'd be really difficult for Marverni to make them, but if they did, they'd be quite powerful.

The Head of Bran the Blessed. This is an immobile hero for Marverni. It's an enormous, undead head (size 6) that can't move but can bite. It's got lots of hit points ofcourse, is sacred, and regenerates, but is also a very skilled magic user: Holy 4, Nature 4, Death 4, and Astral 4. 1 head slot, no misc slots. Makes a really interesting and different hero for Marverni.

Druids had the ability to curse people, according to legend, and their personages-aka their bodies and their lives-were considered very sacred-so maybe Druids have the ability to curse by touch alone-as long as they aren't holding any weapons, and also gain the Death Curse automatically? Double effect if you take blood-bless.

And finally, again since Marverni's very Celtic-themed, how about a high level evocation spell "Gae Bolga" that allows the caster to throw a spinning barbed harpoon with his feet (yes, that's right from Cu Chulain)?

Re: Dud nations
 

http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
25st april
* Great Boar
* Great Boar of Carnutes
* Iron Boar

Re: Dud nations
 

That is GREAT news!

Re: Dud nations
 

Great, Marverni has got a boost then, 200gp temples and new units.

Glad that burden of time as been fixed as well...real killer them massive inflictions it did.

No more burden of time/rain of toads to exploit that bug now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: Dud nations
 

HoneyBadger - through careful editing, I added the Black Cauldron as a *replacement* for Soul Gate. It makes Cauldron Born throughout your dominion.

I don't think it's possible with current modding to give Druids death curse. I *could* give them a nasty national spell that curses people (more efficient/powerful than existing curses.)

As for the intelligent rocks and trees - to an extent, the Monolith pretender and the Tree Lords already cover that schtick - but I could certainly add national versions for Marverni (after all, Black Forest Ulm gets a national vampire lord and there are already vampire lords for everyone else.)

Re: Dud nations
 

Thanks DrPraetorious, I'm glad someone liked my ideas.

Re: Dud nations
 

I just saw this thread and wanted to speak up for my favorite nation, MA Ulm. Perhaps Ulm isn't the best nation in the game, but they are surely not one of the worst. I'd say they are at least average. My reasoning:

1) Their infantry -are- among the best in the game. At least as far as non-sacreds go. They cost 10 gold, people, I dare you to find any other infantry that can stand up to their 20 protection for the same price. And despite what others have said, they are easy to mass with productivity 3 and Ulm's production bonus.

2) Arbelests are among the best archers in the game. 45 range and massive armor piercing damage? I've killed equipped SC pretenders in their own dominion just by using abelests before. They pack a mean punch. Just script them to fire archers or something so they don't hit you in the back.

And speaking of friendly fire, I love using masses of indy archers to fire closest -- they have no chance of hurting my black plates.

3) Huge amounts of available gold. Their infantry are cheap and cost lots of production. Their mages are also cheap (no 300 gold options available here). That means you buy up -all- the mercenaries and expand quickly, even without using your pretender.

4) Forge bonus. I think this has been seriously underestimated in the discussion so far. This is huge. I play Ulm as merchants, selling off dwarven hammers and making nice profits. Or you can sell to your allies at cost -- and since diplomacy is worth so much, I don't think this advantage can be overstated.

5) Research. Once you reach midgame, your research shoots up dramatically by mass forging lightless lanterns, tying you at least temporarily with the game's best. This is something no other race can do as cheaply or as well (2 fire gems per lantern). I would say Ulm has above average research overall.

6) Thugs. People have mentioned Ulm lacks thugs, but I typically base my mid-late game strategy on them, and the wealth of items forged by my smiths. It's not that hard to summon Bane Lords or those Firbolg guys.

So, their late game isn't so hot. I have a habit of coming in 2nd or 3rd with Ulm, but come on -- half the other races wouldn't even have made it that far. Ulm has a killer early -mid game, even if you take into account all those crazy bless strategies out there. Sure, you can beat Ulm in the early game with a dual-bless, but why on earth would you chose Ulm as one of your first targets? You'd have rocks in your head.

Ulm is the best ally to have in the game, and very tough to crack early on. It's my opinion that they should just about always survive to the late mid - endgame, at which point they lose. But, hey, that's life.

Re: Dud nations
 

MA Ulm is horrid, sorry.

1: Toe to toe, sure, they have excellent infantry, I don't think anyone would dispute that, but they're incredibly slow and have pretty subpar morale on the battlefield. If their morale breaks you can expect to lose a LOT of them while they retreat and get hit in the back repeatedly. Also, mapmove 1 = awful. Getting that stand-up fight you want so badly is pretty difficult when your opponent forces you to split up your forces to stop raiders and you can't reassemble them quickly.

2: firing every 3 turns is pretty bad. Normal crossbows or flaming arrow indies are going to do comparable amounts of damage because of their rate of fire, and their range advantage is minimal, especially if the opponent is expecting them and puts his own archers further forward...the length of the battlefield usually isn't more than the range on a normal Xbow. If they had a resource-light version of them I think it would help Ulm out a lot, but they compete for resources in a major way.

3: Other nations can always choose not to spend money on their troops too, it's just a bad plan. Ulm also HAS to spend money building castles for resources.

4: The bonus is nice, but most of the nice stuff they can make is tailored for SCs that they can't easily access, since it tends to be armor, weapons, and shields. Hammers and earth boots are major sellers, and trading is a major plus, it's true, but the variety of items they can make is extremely limited. Indie mage recruitment to expand your forge selection either means a lot of really bad researchers if you took drain, or a lot of pretender points sunk into not taking drain, which hurts because Production 3 is non-optional.

5: Lightless lanterns are nice, but you have to hit construction 6 before you can make them which takes a while. You're also, again, forced to make a pile of them to stay competitive, so you burn a lot of gems just to avoid falling behind.

6: No national paths to summon either of the guys you mentioned. N4 and D2 aren't exceptionally difficult to get, but you'll probably need a ring of sorcery to do so unless you're using your pretender.

Ulm also has a ton of mismatches. Flaming arrows will cut through arbalests and any non-shielded ground troops. Jotunheim's infantry is problematic for Ulm. Massed tramplers are a nightmare. Shadow blast decimates them. Granted FA and SB kill lots of stuff really effectively, but it takes Ulm a long time to recover their losses on the front line. The front castles can only make 20 or so troops per turn, maximum, and with a 1 mapmove castles in the rear aren't going to be able to get help up to the fight for a while.

Re: Dud nations
 

On of the few good things about threads like this is that they debunk the idea of bad anything in the game. You say something general like there are bad nations, or units, or spells.. and you get a lot of head nodding. But in a thread like this you find out that there isnt much agreement on just what those are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud nations
 

That doesn't mean that there aren't bad nations (as in underpowered). Some of the people here (me included) just don't have the experience to make those calls. There are people who have made pretty watertight cases for things in the game being bad - there's no need for discussion in those cases.

The position that there's nothing 'bad' in the game is so ridiculous to me there's no way I'd ever bother arguing with it. All games have things that aren't balanced or just weren't quite thought through by the devs.

Re: Dud nations
 

Once again, it seems to me that a large part of the disagreement comes from a problem of definitions and perspectives. You and Gandalf don't, I think, mean the same thing when you say "bad" or "dud nations" (if Gandalf ever affirms those terms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). I think Gandalf's concern is that people new to the game or new to the topic may get the wrong idea, and that he's trying to supply the contexts and provisos that others are leaving out when they comment about things in a negative way. Of course there are also cases where people haven't considered the good sides of something, or haven't learned the good uses of things (e.g. Agarthan amphibians, Sidhe assassin, human heavy infantry).

Re: Dud nations
 

Responding to Micah's rebuttal:

1) Agreed. I'm glad you agree that Ulm's infantry are truely excellent. I certainly agree that Ulm armies having a strat move of 1 is a horrible disadvantage -- I think it's the worst thing about Ulm, honestly, but this wasn't mentioned in the earlier discussion. I was de-bunking the idea that Ulm's infantry aren't 1st class, and I think at least that part of my argument holds. All heavy infantry is 1 strat move, I believe, but Ulm is forced to rely on them. Admittedly, a major problem.

2) I just disagree here. Let's keep flaming arrows out of this equation and focus on the unit itself with no buffs. Let's take an average protection rating of 12 and go from there, discounting the range bonus of arbelests.

Short bows doing damage of 10, firing every turn. Using the dominions probability table from the manual, they do 1 point of damage only on a 24% chance, and they're doing 5 points of damage on a 6% chance. So, one archer hitting his target three times has a pretty good shot of doing a point of damage (if I'm understanding this right).

A crossbow doing 10 ap damage will do 1 damage 76% of the time. On average, I guess they'll do 4 damage, and 11% of the time they will do 10 damage, potentially enough for a 1 shot kill.

An arbelest doing 14 ap damage, on average, will do 9 damage to that poor fool. That's more than double the x-bow, so even if we say the crossbow fires twice as often as the arbelest, the arbelest is -still better.- In fact, the arbelest bolt will kill a 13 hp, 16 protection heavy calvary in one shot 8% of the time (the x-bow would do it only 3% of the time).

Not only that, but it is a clear advantage to front-load your damage, that's less guys shooting back at you.

3) If Ulm had a 300 gold mage option, they would be the best faction in the game. Just like if -any- other race had Ulm's forging abilty, -it- would be the best faction in the game. I'm not sure how you can view Ulm's having tons of cash on hand as anything other than a nice advantage.

4) Often, I empower my smiths so they have a wider selection of forgable items. At least I did this in dominions 2, in dominions 3, 10% of my smiths will have an extra random path, something I am salivating over.

5) Construction 6 doesn't take that long, given my research priorities. Or priority, as the case may be. That would be Construction 6. Spending a pile of gems to stay competitive, you say? I think I mentioned they only cost me 2 per lantern, if I make 10, that's only 20 gems. And often I sell them for 5-6 gems a pop, that's over 100% profit. Lightless Lanterns -make- gems, they don't cost gems! Oh, and usually I use them for a couple turns before selling them, the buyer is none the wiser they're getting used goods (shhh!).

6) Yeah, this is a problem. Yet, it's a problem that can be solved by the pretender.

About Ulm's mismatches, the one I agree with more than anything is the elephants. Arcosephale kicks the ever living crap out of Ulm -- they have elephants, infantry to rival Ulm's, astral mages to dominate my poor Ulmish minds, and to top it off, they have better research and will kill me in the lategame. But, I'd say that every well-balanced race has at least one mismatch out there, waiting for them. I'm not trying to argue that Ulm is super-awesome, or one of the top tier of factions.

One thing I didn't mention before is the access to spies. I love spies.

Re: Dud nations
 

Haven't read the entire thread in one sitting, but upon glossing, I'd like anyone to tell me why LA Abysia isn't utter crap. Or were we supposed to stick to EA only? Heh. Anyway, LA Abysia gets my vote for the worst land nation.

Re: Dud nations
 

uh, a pretender with nature and fire for a great bless on a sacred troop with a morningstar and a shield.

easy access to blood and devils.

relatively strong fire mages for falling flames.

and thats just at a cursory glance

Re: Dud nations
 

Isn't one of those 10% randoms Air?

That lets Master Smiths make cheap Quills too. Granted they won't have much air income to work with, but at 2 per, they don't need a lot.

Re: Dud nations
 

LA Abysia is a fairly nice blood nation but i personally dont find them that good.

Re: Dud nations
 

He asked about LA Abysia.

Re: Dud nations
 

Wish, if you're telling me that Guardian of the Pyres are worth 55g and 28r with stats that can't match up with FAR cheaper units of other nations I suspect you've never played Abysia in MP.

But hey, if you have, please do tell me how those double blessed Guardians worked out for you. I'm curious. And sort of laughing. I'm sort of new and all. Tell me what I'm missing.

Re: Dud nations
 

well they are cheaper under conceptual balance. so i guess the community has already ceded that point.

I played an MP with them in dom 2. they can hold their own. (just not against qm)