Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Don't worry, Folket and I will get our nations/pretenders in by then.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

thanks for the explanations, managed to get my pretender in.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I'm playing Yoma while Snacktime plays Abysia.

What is the IP and port? And could someone update the first post with IP and port?

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

when are we supposed to start? ie. when should i have my pretender uploaded by? - i keep changing my mind, B10 sphinx, rainbow mage dragon, freaklord SC... so many possibilities...

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

We're going to start tomorrow!

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I think we're planning to start tomorrow (monday) night.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I loaded my pretender. I'm Abysia, Folket is Yomi.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

well, i'm back from work 7:00 mst... 9pm est... i'll upload then i guess

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Does anybody know what time(GMT) we are meant to be starting this thing?

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

well, i'm uploading when i get back from work... so that would be 7:00pm mst , +6 hrs for GMT... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh, and here\'s the map
 

Allies have exactly 2 provinces between their capitals.

Enemies should have exactly 4 provinces between their capitals but I did that by hand, might be a 3 province route somewhere that I missed.

The teams are:
Team 1 (Niefelheim/Ulm) - Red
Team 2 (Pangaea/Arco) - Yellow
Team 3 (Mictlan/C'tis) - Magenta
Team 4 (Sauromatia/Ermor) - Green
Team 5 (Abysia/Yomi) - Cyan
Team 6 (Agartha/Caelum) - Blue
Team 7 (Helheim/Marverni) - Black

The start provinces are all marked with colored lozenges. The number of neighbors was going to be related to how much space you had to expand, but that didn't work out, so everyone just has whatever start provinces they have.

After picking the fourteen start locations, I colored them randomly:
12/26 - Cyan/5
29/37 - Blue/6
97/98 - Magenta/3
115/142 - Black/7
153/156 - Yellow/2
218/232 - Green/4
226/228 - Red/1

Red and Magenta are both pretty *****in', Cyan got a bit screwed - I don't know if Black is in a good position or not. Sorry about that.

In all cases I put the "bruisier" position closer to the middle. That's Niefelheim, Pangaea, Mictlan, Sauromatia, Abysia, Agartha, Helheim.

The map file is attached.

Re: Oh, and here\'s the map
 

Looks good DrP.

Re: Oh, and here\'s the map
 

Awesome, looks great...

Re: Oh, and here\'s the map
 

ok, back, uploaded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

that map layout sounds great tndp... here's to a lot of fun

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

We are just waiting on Shovah and DrP to upload and we can start.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

?

Aren't I Agartha?

I think we're waiting for Caelum/Micah, he said he was getting back today but maybe not until quite late, not sure.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Whoops your right... looked at em wrong.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

i have a rules question before we start... since black's start is the most cramped and since we're not allowed to attack each other until turn 15, but there's a possible exploit there... a flying race can fly in and grab strategic points to block expansion. I'm not saying I expect this, but would like the possibility to respond if i am "agressed" in this manner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

I'd suggest a modification - though its not perfect - that the no attacking rule be suspended for those territories within two of a nation's capital. For instance, one of my team is physically blocked from "his side of the map" if two territories two away from his cap are snatched.

this issue is really just an artifact of my team being relatively narrowly hemmed in - one side especially has a much more cramped axis of expansion, and so it could be possible to hem him in immediately and then hide behind the 15 turn safety zone. I don't believe this was the intent of the rule http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I agree with archaeolept.

Attacking any land province within 2 hops of another nations capital (i.e., the neighbors of an enemy capital, and *their* neighbors) should be forbidden during the first 15 turns as well.

Of course, it's my fault that his start is cramped.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Uploaded (from the airport)

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

archaeolept makes a good point. I will amend the rules at the first page.

Posting ideas like this helps us figure out how to make future team games better!

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Game has started! if you want to be put on the email notification list PM me your email address.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

It's telling me I need the BG mod. What mod is that?

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

ah ok... black is pretty [censored]... I'd propose dumping the 15 turn rule in this case, or we're left to strangle on the vine, and a war clearly of 1 against 2 on the south. But a fight out the gate at least allows us to die or salvage victory gloriously.

but i can certainly play as is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

or if any other team wants to trade? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
(my opinion only, have not spoken with evilhomer)

On a somewhat different topic, it is asking for the mod BG.dm..???

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Blah!

Interesting/Annoyting note about hosting from windows:

If you create the game via a shortcut command line the game will still use whatever mod was enabled from the last game, even it if wasn't specified on the shortcut. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

So we have to reupload pretenders.

Sorry about this.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Baalz and I were in the same position as archaeolept and homer last time out. Does anyone have any thoughts on a solution, beyond redoing the map? Do we need bigger maps than usual for this type of game?

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

The status page will be here when we start:
http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/stats...e=Allegiances2

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

eh how do i play my turn? all i get is an empty upload pretender screen...

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I screwed up the game creation so we are back to reuploading your pretender.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I managed to recover the pretender files - so we are good to go now. Sorry about the delay.

Good luck everyone!

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I know that black position *looks* cramped, but count provinces. You've got as much room to expand as anyone except Red and Magenta (who got more room, according to the computer), and Cyan (who actually is cramped).

By my math, you should *easily* claim 30 provinces. The map is 239 land provinces and there are 7 teams total; so an average share would be 33 provinces, so if you can manage to grab 3 provinces which are in-contention you're doing averagely well. What's the issue?

Now, it *is* a concern that the two of you may not be able to attack the same opponent at the same time. For this reason, I'm worried about the black position being kinda screwed. But not due to cramping.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

what, did we have a turn already?

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

cramping has to do w/ expansion, w/ getting out of an area. black has that in spades, especially the south. there is no other nation w/ a start like it. It is different from everyone else on the face of it - such a situation should red raise flags w/ someone trying to create a balanced start. an exit 2 wide? sorry who else has that? its completely buggered - and then I am directly against two enemies, and cannot bring my own ally to bear? I am flabbergasted that this was set up as it was. 2 against 1? wtf? My desire to engage in a hincked game is rather low.

I offered to exchange starts w/ any other teams. its no surprise no one expressed even theoretical interest in this.

cramping has to do w/ the lack of possibilities of movement out of my area. no one else has anything even remotely similar. In a random map start, that's the way the cookie crumbles, but when start positions were determined by hand, its pretty shocking, as the position is self-evidently different from anyone else's. And having fewer options in how to expand or fight a war is always detrimental. geography is destiny, and my unavoidable destiny is to be curbstombed by having to go one against two head-on. There is no other way this game can go, come turn 16.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Okay, so by "expansion", you mean expansion-into-other-players. I call that "conquest" - you've got the same amount of room for initial expansion as every other team.

That two province width of your borders makes it easy for either side to claim chokepoints. That does tend to favor the defender, making expansion yeah difficult, which I thought would be desirable for the person stuck in the middle of 3. Didn't know it would go to Helheim, obviously.

So, yeah, the borders between Black and the other positions are different from all the other borders (more constricted, staggered), and the black position is different from all the other positions in that the two capitals are not equidistant to their neighbors. However, you'll note that they are staggered - it is possible for the two of you to fight on the same border, you just need to walk an extra province or two.

Consider the situation Green is in - both of you have easy access to the western Green start, but eastern green has a lot of trouble reaching you. Eastern blue is not quite as cut off, but it's a similar situation.

With a little diplomacy and planning, you can fight either of your neighbors 2 on 1, with each of you taking a single province route.

Myself, I'd much rather have a short border than a long one, so, in fact, I did this to you *on purpose* because I thought it would compensate for the nature of your start. I agree that your position is challenging, but so are:
1) Green is next to Red (who is Niefelheim!), who has a corner. Sucks to be him.
2) Magents and Blue both effectively have three neighbors, instead of 2.
3) Cyan is extremely constricted for pre-war expansion.

None of them are complaining.

I tried doing this with several maps and this is the one that worked out best. There were additional fairness issues when I tried to make the map larger, as well - it was very difficult to avoid giving one nation or another sole posession of a large hinterland into which they could then expand unchecked.

Also 7 is a very difficult number to tile - there's no way to arrange 7, except in an absolute ring - without putting somebody in the middle of a group of 3.

You have about 1/7 of the map, and you have two neighbors, just like everyone else. Your borders are a little odd, and swapping start locations would require *restarting the game*, is probably part of why no-one else has even expressed interest in your offer.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Hmm... I seem to have three the empty spot in my capital. Never seen such before.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I think it was added by DrP so that site searching spells will work when automated. This way it skips over your capital.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Here is the deal:

DO NOT CONNECT TO THIS SERVER WITH THE 3.10 PATCH.

I will post here when the game is updated and you can connect with the new patch.

I will upgrade all the games on my server at once. The timer will be be taken off all the games and I will manually upgrade and host all of my games Wed (tomorrow) at about 10pm. Please do all your turns with the old patch (3.08)

Until the upgrade of the server please continue to use the old 3.08 patch.

Thanks!

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Is there any interest in restarting so we can get the new 1.10 magic sites into the game? I wouldn't mind waiting one more day to get the game rolling so we can check out the new content, but obviously Vel would be the one doing the extra work, so it's not my call, just thought I'd ask.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Restarting the game with the new patch since we are on turn 1 seems a good idea.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Fine by me, I'd like to see the new stuff as well.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

well, clearly i would like the start situations fixed... as is, I haven't been able to talk to my ally, but the situation is bollocks IMO. perhaps w/ a day or two delay, if the map is to stay the same, we could find a sub for me, since I have little interest in playing such a start. And I don't much care if Dr. P thinks it is fine, to set it up such that one player is necessarily fighting against 2, w/out help from his ally really due to the narrowness of the constriction...

this was not a random start. As such, my standards for what is acceptible are rather different.
and to have what is clearly a mathematical situation dismissed by the person who created the error in the first place, as "whining" is pretty fscking insulting. I've played this game enough to know the score.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I can re start the game if need be.

I wonder if pretenders need to be resubmitted or if we can use the created under 3.08?

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Pretenders should be reusable.

Does anyone else feel that the black start is so bad that it is unplayable?

I can do another map, with the wheel setup maybe, which is more scrupulously fair, but very hard to do the 15-turns no violence because the people in the middle are awfully close together.

I can also do zero water, or I could move the two black start locations to anywhere within the region to the west of the lake, if Archeolopt sees other provinces that he would rather use; as long as they are at least 4 provinces from both neighbors I don't see as it makes any difference.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

well, little water would help no doubt, especially as there is one land nation that is also amphib(agartha). i'm sure we wouldn't have any problem like this w/ just the odd sprinkling of a one province lake here or there.

you could just set that whole lake to plains even - anything so we have vaguely open axes of advance like the other nations. This has the added advantage of making the game more diplomatic, as more nations can conflict w/ a greater number of opponents. As is, it is set up as a pure grudge match helheim vs. agartha and caelum.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

Dr. P, are you okay with removing the sea, and replacing with land? This seems like the easiest solution, to make the starting situation more fair for Arch.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I fail to find any of these arguments convincing, but I don't expect to convince you - however,
1) By the mathematical measures I used they are quite fair (except, again, Cyan, which is several provinces of screwed).
2) If you objected to 10 water provinces / 0 water players you could have said so when I was configuring the map, I left commentary open for an entire week and I think I was being pretty explicit about what I was planning.

I, for one, am perfectly willing to oblige you if that's what it takes to move the game forward.

If we're restarting anyway, I could easily:
1) Move the two black start locations so that they are on the same north-south latitude.
2) Change some border mountains in the southwest to regular mountains, connect them.
3) Add some sea lanes going up and down the coast so that black can reach green and/or blue more easily.

Does anyone *object* if I do any/all of this?

If there's anyone else who thinks that the black start location is not salvageable, speak up now and I'll just make another map.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

the proper mathematical measure would be amount of possible axes of advance ... ie. a combinatoric measure of the total number of shortest possible paths to, say, 5 provinces out. That would be the measure that would indicate how constrained a start is, or, conversely, how open the geographic situation. The number of possible paths will be much much less for black than for other teams.

the other measures are simple strategic ones. The situation is too narrow for both allies to support each other going one way or the other. i don't believe that is the case for anyone else. As well, the other simple strategic measure is the two vs 1 nature of the southern front. the mathematics on that one are simple enough to do on one hand, even after a gruesome industrial accident.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I'm taking down the game since it looks like we are going to restart at some point.

Re: Allegiances 2 (Large Team-Based Game, RECRUITI
 

I don't really understand the problem, however I haven't really been calculating any mathematical formula to the advantage of my own position really, yet any others for that matter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I have no objections against you changing the map a little to satisfy black, now that we seem to be restarting anyway...