Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I thought it fitting that I should have the 100th post. And, of course, this is just a shameless post to help increase my rank sometime in the future.

------------------
Visit the Spoogy Federation at:
http://spoogyfederation.tripod.com

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

This is because they simply come to the US to make MONEY as I mentioned earlier. They don't care about patriotism or freedom or voting. They want to make MONEY.
[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 21 July 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

capt,
When you find the country that you don't need money to live in would you tell me? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
after awhile, they moved to Canada to enjoy the cultural mosiac that exists here. In Canada, they're able to find more of their people's infrastructure, while it be temples, support Groups etc, so it's similiar to where they came from, but with all the benefits of a first world country.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe i should go spend some time in canada, but when I look around here (granted, here = coastal cities of california) I see plenty of cultural diversity. Asians are not all lumped together, different nationalities all have their own neighborhoods (sure, some people call them ghettos, but they are mainly middle class) in downtown San Francisco. San Jose supports a range of Middle-Eastern and Indian cultures, and I see temples all over the place. even in the suburban parts of the peninsula I see temples for different religions and different cultures in different neighborhoods. In LA.. well, anyone who is looking for cultural acceptance in LA should have their head examined. San Diego has much the same cultural diversity, but with Hispanics and Portugese instead of Easterners.

I dont think its that the support infrastructure is missing here, I think its an attidute difference. I suppose I would have to spend some time in Canada to really understand.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

The US is a melting pot. When you immigrate to the US, they expect you to become American in almost every way.
[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 21 July 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who ARE "They" ? Who is this mysterious evil entity called "they" that rules the USA? Every country that accepts immigrants expects compliance to their laws and some respect for the host countries culture. IN the US, in normal everyday life , no one tells you how to believe or what your culture should be. 250,000,000 people and alot of freedom WILL always add up to some issues. Most of those issues are overblown by the media. An average US citizen does not worry that the bus stop they are waiting at will be blown to bits, or a bomb set off at the local diner, or that they are going to be mugged walking in the park. I am an immigrant from the UK , 1966. Not once Have I ever been asked or told to change my beliefs or stop any customs my family may practice. If someone did it would violation of the Bill of rights.
Every country has dumb politicians who make very bad decisions. Look at Russia and Chechnya. China and Tibet, Israel and the occupied territories.

I think those that are on the I hate the USA kick should stop "calling the kettle black" so to speak.
The US meddles no more or less than other major world powers in world affairs, often the US is asked by the UN to intervene. Kosovo is a good example - most of Americans dont want to see our guys there, when Bush hinted that we may pull out most of us were happy to hear it but the EU screamed bloody murder. Its the politicians in other countries who are as much to blame for the worlds problems, be it war, pollution, starvation, crime. The US gets the visibility because it the big kid on the block. But dont worry all you USA haters, In a few more years china will be militarily the most powerful country. With that power will come alot of responsibility. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese handle their new found status. Tiawan will be a good test, lets just hope that if they succumb to the power - that the US sits back and lets it happen, let the rest of the world figure out what to do, wouldnt want those horrible nasty Americans interfering now...would we?

BTW - those of you who think life portrayed on the silver screen by hollywood is how life really is in the US is sadly dis-allusioned. If you think that what you watch on your countries news isnt tainted with propaganda...I am sorry to say its sad to see it worked, You really need to think and know your facts before passing judgement on others. The US is a typical western country with its good points and bad, but After seeing the US news propaganda about the rest of the worlds problems - I cant think of a place I would rather live. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I take a somewhat different view. I too am an immigrant to the US, though I have only been here for 9 months. I have been very frustrated by the immigration laws and here, and the work culture which is *very* different from Europe. I came seeking the American Dream (which maybe 5% of the population actually obtains) and being frustrated every step of the way. America is a very opportunistic, cold-hearted money-driven country.
(of course I may be somewhat prejudiced since I recently fell victim to the rounds of lay-offs in the IT industry, which is why I play SEIV all day).

As a model for government, I think the socialism of western Europe is best, though that has problems of its own.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
I take a somewhat different view. I too am an immigrant to the US, though I have only been here for 9 months. I have been very frustrated by the immigration laws and here, and the work culture which is *very* different from Europe. I came seeking the American Dream (which maybe 5% of the population actually obtains) and being frustrated every step of the way. America is a very opportunistic, cold-hearted money-driven country.
(of course I may be somewhat prejudiced since I recently fell victim to the rounds of lay-offs in the IT industry, which is why I play SEIV all day).

As a model for government, I think the socialism of western Europe is best, though that has problems of its own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry to here that you are having problems, but I have to ask you what you think the American Dream is if only 5% attain it. If it is wealth beyond your wildest dreams, then you are right, few attain it. If it is a comfortable life with freedom to live and be what you want, I believe that the percentage is dramatically higher.

A friend of mine is from China. He also fought with the INS to get his permanent residency status. For some reason, the past few years have been worse than previous times, and have actually brought about a Congressional investigation into the INS, as I understand it. He stuck with it, though and is happy to be living here.

While the current INS bureaucracy may be incompetent, that should not be an indictment against the US as a whole.

I can definitely relate to the frustration about lay-offs. I have been laid-off in the past, and I just survived a lay-off in the company I am working for now. The IT industry is extremely vulnerable to market down-turns. Many of the companies are small and do not have much in cash reserves. At the same time, research and development costs are high and take time before they start returning on the investment. When sales slow down the companies have two choices, let people go, or get to the point that they can't pay the people they have.

None of that is particularly consoling when you have lost your job. The only positive I can relate is that 3 of the 5 programmers we lost are working elsewhere after a few weeks. I have not had contact with the other 2, so I do not know how they are doing. Depending on where you are, and what your skills are, there is work to be had, but it can be tricky to find.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

The INS (as I mentioned before: The worst bureaucracy in the western world) is designed to keep people out of the US...

I spent nearly a year of time just trying to get the proper documents to work legally while I was staying with my fiance in the US...it never happened. I went through so much crap and every INS officer seemed to give me a different answer to my questions. One day I traveled to the INS office in Seattle and was suprised to find it heavily guarded (don't bother bringing your nail file or any other shrap object) as if it was a military base. They offer no help and treat you like trash. It was a horrible experience.

Fortunately, my wife and I decided to move to my home in Toronto and within two months of submitting her papers - boom - she had a job and free health care.

I enjoyed living in the US (especially the Northwest) - but I really hated the way the government was set up. They never get anything done, ever. And, it's too easy for special interest Groups to influence the government (NRA, Christian Right etc)...

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AJC:
I think it is a good thing that the IOC gave the olympics to china , it gives the people of china exposure to the world... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it will give the rest of the world a chance to see a part of China they may not see otherwise, mainly her people, her culture, and her history.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atrocities:
Ya, lets just hope that the Chines don't drive the tanks into the Olympic park and kill everyone their because they think they are revolting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not with the TV cameras of the whole world watching. As has been mentioned before, the Chinese are not stupid.

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

"And, it's too easy for special interest Groups to influence the government (NRA, Christian Right etc)..."

I would have to wonder how you propose to fix that.

The obvious answer to that sort of thing, really, is more influence.. in the other direction.

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

This might be slightly off-topic. But:

If I was considering emigrating to another country, where Online would a look for things like:

-government system (like does the Congress have 2 Houses or one)
-basic laws and freedoms, such as firearms ownership
-things that the government provides for you (health care, education)
-statistics (average income, culture/language breakdown, etc.)

Is there any one (or few) sites that have all of the above for the world's major nations?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Hah! Off-topic squared!

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would have to wonder how you propose to fix that.

The obvious answer to that sort of thing, really, is more influence.. in the other direction.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One way you could eliminate it is to change the way politicians are funded. So that special interest Groups (like Oil, Big Tobacco, NRA, etc) could buy off support...

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
One way you could eliminate it is to change the way politicians are funded. So that special interest Groups (like Oil, Big Tobacco, NRA, etc) could buy off support...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every single attempt to do that so far has had the result of creating masses of rules (so you need a laywer and MORE money), limiting free expresion, and gennerally making the "interest Groups" with money more powerful.

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Capt,
If you think the INS is bad try going the other way.

I had to do some work in Canada. Very simple warranty repair of a pump. 4 days, 5 forms and $250.00 later I was able to reach the job site in Edmonton. Cost my Canadian customer a few hundred thousand dollars. They certainly went through great lengths to be sure that some Canadian worker wasn't put out of work by me, even though the work was warranty. They even charged me for bringing my hand tools in. Amazing bureaucracy up there too.

You don't think the government is a special interest too?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Wow, this thread is really moving fast. I just wanted to respond to Alpha Kodiak's response to my initial post here.

Things I like about living in the US: the standard of living, good consumer products, all my favorite games/books/movies come from here, less government restrictions on what you can/can't do than in Europe. It's a great place to live IF you have money.

What I dislike (or even hate) about the USA:
It's a ****ty place to live if you don't have money. That's true for most of the world, but more so in capitalistic countries.
I dislike the lack of gun-control. I dislike the litigation attitude, and how everybody is scared ****less of lawyers and always covering their asses. I am sad about how little the average american knows about the world outside his country or even his state.
I'm saddened by the overall lower level of education compared to, say, the Netherlands. I hate the immigration laws, and the opportunistic use of foreign talent.
Let me expand a bit on that, since that's what we were originally talking about.

Two years ago during the economic boom, hundreds of thousands of IT workers were brought to the US, most on H1-B visas. The INS calls them non-immigrant aliens.
I'm one of them. Here's how ****ty we are treated:

1) No matter how good your credit history in your own country, it doesn't count here. You start from scratch. Forget about buying a car or a house in the first two years or so that you're here.
2) Employment wise, up until a recent law-relaxation, we were like indentured servants. You're stuck with the company who sponsored you, if you loose your job for whatever reason they can legally deport you the next day. Non-H1-b visa holders (e.g L1 like myself) are still in this situation, the H1-B portability clause does not apply.
2b) Just like American employees, we get no job security whatsoever. If a manager has a bad hairday, PMS, whatever, they can fire you on the spot and there is nothing you can do. However unlike Americans, we do not get the "flip side of the coin" in that you can get a new job within days. We must find an employer who is willing to sponsor a visa all over again (which takes at least 3 months) and absorb the cost of being unemployed ourselves. With the way the economoy is right now, no matter how good your credentials are, no employer will expend that much effort to hire you. Easier to get an American.
3) So what do you do if you get laid off? Being European, I figured I could turn to the government for help, while I look for work. After all, I have been paying taxes, paying for Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment insurance, etc. So I try to claim for unemployment benefits. Hey, its only $400 a week but it helps pay the rent.
What does the Department of Labor tell me? You have no green card. Thus you have no rights, and can forget your benefits. Even though we make you participate in mandatory schemes (e.g. Social security) from which you can legally never reap any benefits.
Thank you for paying for the pension of our elderly folks though.
(by the way I am currently appealing this matter up to the highest State levels.)
4) Until you get a green card (takes 6-7 years) forget about planning a life. Forget about marriage, kids, buying a house, etc. Too risky, you could loose it all on any given day and be forced to return to your home country, on your own costs, and try to survive there.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but those are the cold hard facts from a Dutchman's point of view.

Now, back to SEIV to take my mind off things :-)

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Dragonlord:

For what it's worth (and based on both your description and my friend's), I agree that the current immigration laws concerning "non-immigrant workers" such as yourself need to be fixed. The trouble is that most people born here have no contact with the immigration system and don't know how ridiculous the system is, or worse, don't care. If I hadn't been exposed to it through the ordeal of my friend, I wouldn't have known anything about it.

While I have defended the U.S. in a number of areas, you have a legitimate complaint. One of the things I get frustrated about by our government (trust me, there are others) is that we fight against illegal immigration, but then we make legal immigration difficult. It would seem to me to be more efficient to make it easier to immigrate legally, and use the savings in reduced efforts at rounding up illegals to generate more jobs for those who enter the country legally.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the Chinese are not stupid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed they are not, however, when the TV cameras are gone................. How many will pay once the spot light has been turned off?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Atrocities, check out my two Posts near the beginning of this thread.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Dragonlord - try Canada. There always looking for skilled IT workers and it's a lot easier to immigrate here...


------------------
Visit the Spoogy Federation at:
http://spoogyfederation.tripod.com

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Dragonlord - try Canada. There always looking for skilled IT workers and it's a lot easier to immigrate here...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd consider that myself it weren't so fricking cold!

Quikngruvn, who has never experienced more than six inches of snow at one time

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

the thing that i dislike the most about the US (not that i dislike the US, but i figured i would chip in for the other side of the argument.. only fair.) is that people dont like the police. the average citizen is trained to distrust and be afraid of the police. its a huge cultural problem, and part of the problem is with the civilians and part is with the police.

I think that the whole anti-authority mindset is what leads to all the youth-violence we have in the States. Other countries that have more open attitudes where someone can ask a friendly question to an officer on a street corner dont seem to have the rampant problems with inner city gangs and school violence that we have.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Spoogy, I actually spoke to a recruiter in Toronto Last week, they had an interesting open position. But when they heard I was not a US citizen (let alone Canadian) they said it would be too difficult paperwork-wise. They also said that getting a work visa in Canada is equally hard as in the US...unless you're American. Odd, they almost made it sound as if they were a northern province of the US rather than a country in its own right.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Speaking as an American (one who is born in america is of course an american, just like someone who is born on mars is a martian, so don't try and say I am not an american.) I find some of these comments rather insulting.

To adress one comment earlier, why shuold we care about humans rights and civil liberties in some country half way around the world, well, becuase they are PEOPLE. You should care about the world around you, and the people most of all because they are your kin, maybe not directly but we are all one people, and to only care about oneself is selfish.

And another thing, if we weren't going to care about those around us, why the hell should we care about the government. And not all americans drive SUV's and spray arasole cans into the air for fun. I for one ride a bike most of the time, and encourage those around me to do it as well. And we are taking steps (maybe small ones but you have to start somewehere) to decrease pollution, recycling is up, incinerators are steadily going the way of the dinosaur and mass transit is being pushed more and more.

As for the biggest problem in our country, it's not regulating american run industry in foriegn nations, this causes major explotation problems and causes many american industries to move out of the country.

As for our election system, it's fine, the problem is big buiseness and interest Groups are exploiting it with money. A situation easily fixed if it wasn't for the fact that it benefited the politicians, who are the ones who would fix it.

Which brings me to another point, there aren't supposed to be politicians in america, it was originially set up so that being a politician would be something you just did, not a job.

Another thing, about Lucanos' comment about america being a dictatorship, it is not. It is more like neocolonialism, only in this case the government is merely a puppet to itself and corporate america. And one more thing Lucanos, propaganda is propaganda, you can't take it worth ****, it is skewed, if you want the facts you must look deeper.

Maybe native american's were here first, maybe my ancestors did take their land, maybe it was wrong, here slit my rists, lord knows that it's only right that I should pay for the sins of my ancestors. I'm sure your ancestors never did anything wrong!

As for poverty, of course there is poverty in our country, there is poverty in every country.

Not that I am saying america is superior, no nation is superior. Perosnally do not believe in government, or organized religion for that mater (organized religion is just another attempt at government but claiming it is gods will.)

Oh yes and a comment earlier, something about this day and age countries should moving towards democracy? What the hell? Whoever said democracy is the ultimate form of government? In reality communism is, that is true communism, where there is no real government and everyone gives of themselves to benefit their neighbor. And don't give me any crap abou thats not communism, cause that is communism as it was originally intended, countries today that claim to be communist are generally more facist or socialist than true communist.

Please don't generalize your statements, I don't look down on anyone that I don't know, (of course upon meeting people a realise they are idiots and proceed to look down on them) And to those who believe we need government or organized religion, they are wrong, china opporated mostly without organized religion and government for a long time. It wouldn't have been a nice place to live, and then along came religion and look where china is now. Seriously, look it up.

It seems as a lot of people here have a 'holier than thou' attitude. No person is perfect, no government is perfect, but mostly no person is perfect..... dagnabbit.

- just another long rant from Zero.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Sorry, double post, oh ya, one more thing:

Come on people now, smile on your brother everybody get together gotta love one another right now.

[This message has been edited by ZeroAdunn (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

FYI you can delete Posts. Same screen as the edit button.

Anyway- communism as a perfect government: perfect governments have to work. Communism..doesn't. Human nature, really.

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Anyway- communism as a perfect government: perfect governments have to work. Communism..doesn't. Human nature, really.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite true. Communism is just like the idealised calculations in physics and chemistry... great for theoretical studies but doesn't really work out in real life. I guess Marx forgot that humans are humans afterall.


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Every single attempt to do that so far has had the result of creating masses of rules (so you need a laywer and MORE money), limiting free expresion, and gennerally making the "interest Groups" with money more powerful.

Phoenix-D

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually all you need is a law that says senators can't serve more than one term in their life. That will stop it being a career option, force big businesses to spread there money futher.

or better yet treat it like jury service.
(possibility for insider dealing exists here)

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Dragonlord - They make it easy for you if you're American coming here. But if you're from the UK, it should be pretty easy as well...

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>china opporated mostly without organized religion and government for a long time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>China has had some form of centralized government since the Shang Dynasty in 1600 BC. No culture on Earth has ever advanced beyond clan-based tribalism without some form of government.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"The love of money is the root of all evil." --Lord Acton (I remember that one!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it predates Lord Acton by a couple of years. "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."--St. Paul, First Epistle to Timothy
[/quote]

Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs."
Note that the problem is not money, or even riches, but greed, coveting, and pride. Paul then proceeds to give apostolic commands for Timothy to pass along to the wealthy:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

P.S. Regarding China and the Olympics: No one seems to remember that Moscow was awarded the Olympics during the Cold War, and the U.S. would have gone if it had not been for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I wonder if the Afghanis took comfort from that while they were being sprayed with nerve gas from helicopters? Or do you suppose that maybe the CIA-supplied Stingers they got later on were more of a comfort?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:

Religious fanatics? I haven't heard of any of the hundreds of religious denominations in the US declaring a jihad (a Holy War) on anyone or anybody. With the possible exception of Southern Baptists, who tried to boycott Disney because they offered the same corporate benefits to same-sex couples as to married couples. (These are the same people who, in a Sunday sermon, told the congregation my stepdaughter attended that if they watched the Super Bowl on Sunday, they'd go to Hell.) The rest of us laugh at the Southern Baptists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding the Disney boycott: Disney portrays itself as upright and "family-friendly." The boycott was intended to draw attention to various immoral practices by Disney, including but not limited to: increasing participation in the "gay agenda" including gay pride parades down Main Street in Disneyworld, movies by Disney-owned companies that were R-rated without having some redeeming social reason for being that way (unlike, for example, Schindler's List), increasing hostility to religion and increasing sexual content in movies intended for children. I could go on, but my point is that Quikngruvn is oversimplifying and misrepresenting the Southern Baptist position.

Regarding the Sunday sermon: My guess is that the preacher said something like "it's a sin to skip church in favor of the Super Bowl."


[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 23 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
[b] Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs."
Note that the problem is not money, or even riches, but greed, coveting, and pride. Paul then proceeds to give apostolic commands for Timothy to pass along to the wealthy:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, yep! The long-haired hippie guy they talk about in the gospels was a flaming communist! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif It's a clear sign of how far many of the so-called 'Christians' of our time have traveled from the roots of their religion that you will find as many "religious" movements allied with the business community in trying to make the country safe for profit as there are charity organizations trying to help the poor.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, not incorrect; just from a different Version and without the context. As for the interpretation, agreed. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yep, yep! The long-haired hippie guy they talk about in the gospels was a flaming communist! It's a clear sign of how far many of the so-called 'Christians' of our time have traveled from the roots of their religion that you will find as many "religious" movements allied with the business community in trying to make the country safe for profit as there are charity organizations trying to help the poor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The "long-haired hippie" stereotype is derived from religious art of a period much later than Christ's life, especially medieval/Renaissance art. Long(er) hair, if anything, was just as culturally normal for men of the day as wearing high heels and hose was normal for the court of Louis XIV. Does that mean, then, that Louis XIV was either a) a woman, or b) a transvestite? He was neither; he was manly in his culture. Hippies were culturally rebellious because they participated in a style culturally associated with women. Don't try to place first-century culture in a modern setting--there is no comparison.

RE: Communism--see above comments, as well as dmm's excellent commentary.

RE: Increased religious/political involvement--Granted, much of "Christianity" has become more involved in social issues than in the "roots" they've left. But then, would you say that a Christian is someone who claims to follow Christ, or someone who actually does? Mainstream Christianity has less in common with Bible teaching than it does with modern culture; but does that condemn the "real thing"? Does the existance of counterfeit bills prove the inefficacy of genuine currency? Just food for thought.

Oh, and Baron, congratulations on your promotion. Not as far to go as you thought, was it? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Basic Tech Mod v.75

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
[b]
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only reason that "Christian communalism" can work is given in the exortation to "put their hope in God". A person can only truly give up there own self-interests when they know that their needs will be unfailingly met by the power of God.

In this is the greatest misunderstanding about Chritianity, both from the inside and the outside. Christianity is not a set of moral rules or a way to achieve enlightenment to make one group of people superior to another (though I have seen attempts to use it that way.) It is also not a get-rich-quick scheme, though there are those who attempt to use it that way, as well.

Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who follow Him should exhibit certain behavior traits as a positive reaction to what He has done, not in an attempt to win favor with God or others. That is why attempting to legislate "Christian" behavior fails. Without the relationship with Christ, there is no motivation to behave in a "Christian" manner.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krsqk:
The "long-haired hippie" stereotype is derived from religious art of a period much later than Christ's life, especially medieval/Renaissance art. Long(er) hair, if anything, was just as culturally normal for men of the day as wearing high heels and hose was normal for the court of Louis XIV. Does that mean, then, that Louis XIV was either a) a woman, or b) a transvestite? He was neither; he was manly in his culture. Hippies were culturally rebellious because they participated in a style culturally associated with women. Don't try to place first-century culture in a modern setting--there is no comparison.

RE: Increased religious/political involvement--Granted, much of "Christianity" has become more involved in social issues than in the "roots" they've left. But then, would you say that a Christian is someone who claims to follow Christ, or someone who actually does? Mainstream Christianity has less in common with Bible teaching than it does with modern culture; but does that condemn the "real thing"? Does the existance of counterfeit bills prove the inefficacy of genuine currency? Just food for thought.

Oh, and Baron, congratulations on your promotion. Not as far to go as you thought, was it? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I was intentionally referring to the very large cultural gap between the originator and the self-described 'followers' of the religion today called "Christianity". Yes, it has far more to do with Medieval, Renaissance, and Modern European culture than anything Mediterranean or (especially) specifically Biblical/Jewish. Even in that context, though, Christ was a bit non-conformist. So the 'hippie' designation is not really incorrect. Call it double-irony. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

And, yeah, what a surprise to discover the rank of General and reach it in the same day...

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 24 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Many an atheist behave along the definition of what I assume is meant by "A Christian manner", without believing in creationism.

Christian beliefs have been defining the western worlds laws and social attitudes for centuries. I dont think One needs a relationship with christ to understand right and wrong and most people are motivated to act according to what is defined by society as moral behavior, not because of the fear of god, but because that is what is defined by our society as correct and obey the law.

In my view most of society is law abiding and treats each other well. Its the few dimwits who are troubling the rest of society. Those few idiots out of 250,000,000 in the US justifies the media telling us and the rest of the world how evil American society is. Its all propaganda and done for the sensationalism, the media practically falls over itself generating hype everytime something happens. 1 or 2 guys shooting up the streets in LA can occuppy the news for 2 days, WHY? because Happy stories dont generate $$$ and certainly dont bring in the audience. People have a facination for disasters and tragic events, its human nature, and the media is capitalizing on it.

If the US was so out of wack and in so much trouble - there would be another revolution brewing in this country, because Americans are a pretty militant bunch. So I think that you will find that most americans are content, so obviously things are as bad here as they are painted out to be.

Another thing to consider - is the world really anymore violent than in the Last 2000 yrs past? Probably not - I think it is the medium for which reporting the news stories is allowing us an instantanious microscopic view of the same social issues that have been with us since the beginning of the human race and most of us dont like what we see.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
I could go on, but my point is that Quikngruvn is oversimplifying and misrepresenting the Southern Baptist position.

Regarding the Sunday sermon: My guess is that the preacher said something like "it's a sin to skip church in favor of the Super Bowl."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oversimplified and misrepresented, perhaps. My point was that although there are some sects in the US that take their religious zeal to seemingly extreme positions (to outsiders, anyway), most Americans are not religious fanatics. I chose the Southern Baptists because (a) I know a bunch of Southern Baptists (and I went to a Southern Baptist university), and their actions often contradict their professed beliefs (but not all of them do!), and (b) as a sect, their credo is so conservative that they're a relatively easy target from the religious middle ground.


As for the Super Bowl remark, no, the pastor said they would go to Hell. The sermon was given on the morning of Super Bowl Sunday.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AJC:
Many an atheist behave along the definition of what I assume is meant by "A Christian manner", without believing in creationism.

Christian beliefs have been defining the western worlds laws and social attitudes for centuries. I dont think One needs a relationship with christ to understand right and wrong and most people are motivated to act according to what is defined by society as moral behavior, not because of the fear of god, but because that is what is defined by our society as correct and obey the law.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, Jesus of Nazareth: prophet, revolutionary, and all around great guy. Personally, I believe in Jesus' teachings and try to act on his teachings in my life (though my human nature gets in the way). Am I a Christian? No, for the simple fact that I do not believe Jesus was the "Son of God" any more than the rest of us are sons and daughters of God. I believe man deified Jesus later, decades or centuries after his crucifixion. Does this make Christians' beliefs any less valid? No. But, I think I am more "Christian" than some who claim to be Christians, but act in markedly un-Christian ways.

Or, put more succintly, I gotta agree with AJC.

Ya know, my momma always told me never to discuss religion or politics in mixed company. Now I see why!

Quikngruvn, back in his asbestos flak suit

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

After a short night's sleep and some rethinking, I've realized the error of my ways. Not so much oversimplification or misrepresentation of the Southern Baptists (though valid assertions), but overgeneralization. I took the actions of individuals (like the Southern Baptist who told my Catholic friend he was going to Hell for being Catholic) and individual actions of the sect (like the Disney boycott) and applied them to the sect as a whole, without really knowing the motives and beliefs of the sect and its members. Kinda like if I had said that all Canadians are nothing more than beer-swilling hockey goons, which obviously they aren't ("all I ever needed to know about Canada I learned from 'Strange Brew'").

So, I've learned three things:
A) Don't go about bashing a group of people until I understand where they're coming from;
2) Think before I post; and
ç) No more posting at 4 am!

Quikngruvn, off to make an omelet with the egg on his face

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
But, I think I am more "Christian" than some who claim to be Christians, but act in markedly un-Christian ways.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do not disagree on this. Actually, my statement about legislating "Christian" behavior was not directed at those who do not claim Christianity. I do not deny that there are people who behave in a very moral way, yet do not believe the tenets of Christianity. Rather, it is pointing out that it is futile to try to force a particular set of values (based upon a particular belief system) on people who do not follow that belief system.

This is not to say that a Christian cannot take a political stand on issues that face society: capital punishment (there are Christians on both sides on this one), pornography, abortion and many others. It just means that we have to debate the issues on their own merits, not whack people over the head with our Bibles and think that is going to convince them.

No, I am not trying to start a debate on any of those issues http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/rolleyes.gif. I am just trying to clarify how I believe that Christians need to interrelate with the rest of society. Part of the problem with my previous post is that I also post to a couple of forums on Christianity, and I lost track of who my audience was in this one.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Ok, how far can we drift from the original topic? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Anyone got any other good things to bring up?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

We've already got off-topic squared.. lets go for off-topic cubed!

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Ok, how far can we drift from the original topic? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Anyone got any other good things to bring up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had this awesome carne lingua burrito the other day. tender, almost a gamey meat with this awesome hotsauce that really clears the sinuses. and to any one who poo-poos toung, i say dont knock it till you try it.

and to anyone in the SF bay area, i really have to sing the praises of the Prince of Whales Pub's jerked chicken sandwiches and garlic fries. ohhh boy.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Yes, but are the Diamondbacks going to make a move before the trade deadline?

Edit: Oops, the original topic was marginally sports-related, so I don't know if I really switched to a new topic.

[This message has been edited by Alpha Kodiak (edited 24 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

HOW about those seattle mariners...? if you live in seattle - you still pinch yourself each day... wondering when you're going to wake up....

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ok, how far can we drift from the original topic? Anyone got any other good things to bring up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not exactly good, but I lost all of my AI Patcher source files when I had my Motherboard replaced (& HD wiped out)

What a bummer.

Now I've gotta find the time to rewrite the code before I can add support for mods.

At least I can download EXE from the Boards here...

------------------
The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
-&lt;Download V2.0&gt;-
-&lt;Download V1.6&gt;-
-&lt;Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6&gt;-
-&lt;Download SJs latest AI Patcher&gt;-
Visit My Homepage

Other Links:
-&lt;Play By Web&gt;-

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AJC:
HOW about those seattle mariners...? if you live in seattle - you still pinch yourself each day... wondering when you're going to wake up....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are unbelievable this year. When they played the D-backs in interleague, they looked great.

Of course, down here everyone is going Gonzo for Gonzo. He hit HRs 39 and 40 Last night.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Yes, but are the Diamondbacks going to make a move before the trade deadline?

Edit: Oops, the original topic was marginally sports-related, so I don't know if I really switched to a new topic.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it's looks like you came full circle.

Quikngruvn