Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Again.

All the arguing is beside the point. Bob has absolutely no basis for his argument. Let me explain.

1) His premise is flawed. He states that 'Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN' (thread subject line). This is logically equivalent to stating that these nations CANNOT win. He cites the MP win thread as his proof. Statistically, that thread does not prove his point. Therefore, his statement has no support.

2) He then explains why he believes that his unsupported premise is correct. Their PD is bad. Every single response to this point accepts, implicitly, statement 1), above. In other words, you are arguing implicitly accepting that they cannot win. This is a classic (if ridiculous) rhetorical technique. Don't follow it. Someone must prove premises before they are allowed to use them as the basis for other arguments.

3) He does not offer a solution! He is simply describing a rather ridiculous reason for a nonexistant problem. He is complaining, purely and simply. At least NTJedi suggests a solution to this (though again, he is implicitly accepting 1) and most likely 2) above, which is incorrect). Offer some sort of solution if you are going to complain.

Bob, answer these points, or shut. the. hell. up. Even IW people have pointed out to you this very issue, which means the designers of the game _are not going to listen to you until you respond to this_. To the point, you are trolling. This is against forum policy, and you should expect a warning and/or banning for it.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I find them an under average nation, but they are not the only ones which could use a power up, and I can't see the point of such an argument.
Are they the ONLY nation that haven't won in MP ?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Not even close.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

So here we have our Don Quichotte, hopelessly charging windmills...

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Lord_Bob, I will play you one-on-one, Bandar Log against Ulm if you want. Would be fun. Are you up for it?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

The test, should the monkeys win, will be evidence that the argument in the title of this thread is wrong.

The game settings can be set up to allow the two reasonable expansion before contact. This will emulate the following MP situation:

initial expansion complete, NAPs with most neighbors, war with one.

This is the most favorable condition for going to war with someone else, apart form going to war with an ally, of course. And neither player will have to worry about being betrayed or having their NAPs cancelled.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I just checked MA Ulm's PD. Looks like Mr. Nerf Boy has been at it again. I get 1/2 Infrantry of Ulm per point and 1/2 Crossbowman per point. 10 WHOLE GOLD per point. Yes, that's 10 GOLD of unit. 10 WHOLE GOLD. OH. MY. GOD. SO POWERFULL. A useless arbalest and an Infrantry of Ulm who will pass out rapidly. It is not QUITE as pathetic as monkey PD, but it is quite pathetic. Oh, I also only get one TEN GOLD unit past 20.

And no, the fact that Ulm, which has the weakest results of the entire game also has fairly nerfed PD doesn't prove me wrong. I would like to say that MA Ulm PD is BARELY adequate. BARELY. MARGINALLY. But combined with the other failing of MA Ulm, it is not surprising at all that they never win. How is MA Ulm going to deal with raiding?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Alright. How about Man vs Bandar Log. Would you play that?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I should be able to play against you in the next few hours if you're up for it.
Pick your nation and I'll play with whatever monkey nation you want.
I'm guessing standard settings? What map?

Also note that I have almost no monkey experience.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

This guy is hilarious. Say something about Abysia's old age problems!

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I will, I HATE LATE WINTER PLAYING ABYSIA!

All my mages just became feebleminded!

Damn, even those monkeys could beat me now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Abysia doesn't have age problems. Its mages are spring chickens.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

No that's Mictlan. And they're turkeys, not chickens...

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

What's that you say? That sounds like an invitation to me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

MA Bandar Log VS. MA Man. I need a little work on my pretender and you'll probably want to work on your white monkey bless.

I'll be able to play you tommorrow. Send me information on how to connect. I would prefer a 35 province rectangular map, but don't want to spend the time to make one.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Is Kissblade a dedicated Patala player?... I did not know we had any players dedicating themself to a nation.

Btw, Jotunheim never wins because the terrible pd.

I'm very impressed about how fast this thread has been going.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

So you have given up on playing ulm against the monkeys ? Thought you said it would be so very easy just yesterday.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Heh, for some reason I tend to like the nations that "everyone" considers underpowered. I think MA Ulm and EA R'yleh can be real powerhouses if you're clever about compensating for their obvious weaknesses, and I'm doing quite well with MA Atlantis in Evermore. With MA Mictlan's new face lift I can't think of anybody I consider really uncompetitive.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I assumed we would just be using a premade/randomly generated map.
Tomorrow sounds fine.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Coming up next: "WHY MA ULM CAN NEVER WIN AND I'M RIGHT" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(cudos to Sombre)

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Guys, guys.

Let him respond to the underlying problem with his statement before you offer anything else.

IOW, stop feeding the troll until he stops acting like one.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I only play PS, but Bandar Log is my favorite MA nation. I guess I like the summons.

The biggest problem I see with Bandar Log is that they do not have access to paths that allow research aid crafting (skulls, lamps or feathers). My normal mid/late game lead in research is nonexistant with Bandar Log.

If the dev's eliminated the two midget monkeys off the recruiting screen I would not notice their absence. Of course the midget monkees are the PD so that probably is unlikely.

I love the national summons. What variety! The 4 armed beauties can be armed to the teeth and 2 or 3 of them are unstoppable.

What this has to do with MP is probably nothing.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I've done well with them in MP. I played thejeff and some other guys, so you can ask him(he notes it in the one of the first posts in this thread). The game ended when I went to law school, and several people wanted to declare me the winner, but some guys wanted to fight me before they gave up.

This game is more than PD, in my opinion.

PS. Yomi has a weaker PD.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

That was a joke of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I had a really good Late Winter, no feebleminds at all. The odd limp here and there but that wont affect there fireball throwing at all!

Anyway, Jurri haven't you read the title thread, 'Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN', ha ha bet you regret choosing Bandar Log now!

Face it, Jurri, your on a loser mate, Lord Bob said so. Those cheeky little monkies will be the death of you, they will never beat my horde from hells.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Whoa whoa whoa!

Step back for a second here. You won't play MA Ulm vs the monkeys? If you refuse to play ANY NATION against any other monkey nation than you have completely negated your entire argument, Lord Bob.

Look at the thread title you used and then switch back to MA Ulm and actually prove your point instead of ranting...

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I certainly wouldn't object to Lord Bob changing to Ulm.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I can't believe this thread is already up to 9 pages...

Of all the things to complain about someone picks PD?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

From playing against dual blessed Kailasa in a game I gotta say they are not weak.
Sure they have some glaring weaknesses but their bless troops are monsters.
I mean look at this...
S9W9 Ghandarvas have
-enough moves to reach your front line in about two turns
-17 armor
-20 mr
-17 moral (blessed)
-and a +5 standard so they give each other moral. Basically these guys arn't gonna rout.
-16 defense (they take a hit here from the plate)
-two attacks (so four every other round)
- 25 hps
-twist fate
An S2 mage can summon 6 of them for 18 pearls and the spell is at conjuration five.
Their only weakness seems to be fatigue(kind of) and a somewhat non-impressive attack skill of 13.
Oh yeah, they're also magic beings so if you cast unraveling and wait 500 turns or so they'll die of old age.
If you don't go with a bless/summon strategy I guess you'd have a point about the pd...but why the hell wouldn't you with troops like these??

imo raiding wouldn't work too well against them anyway since they don't seem to need a lot of gold with the 1/2 upkeep of sacreds and also iirc summons don't need upkeep at all.
A squad of like five Ghandarvas with a piest will obliterate your 200 gold raiding force in about five seconds, and could probably take on a much larger raiding force as well.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala ALWAYS WIN
 

Lord Bob,
If it bothers you so much, why not just mod the game to give them better PD? Its only a few lines in notepad. (or text editor of your choice)

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

So you are going to research Conj-5 and summon a army of Ghandarvas before your opponent can build an indy commander and give him 10 heavy infrantry(that's the new low number).

That's fast. Really it is. This does make up, partially, for their low troop strength. And astral pearls can be gotten from anywhere. BUT, those Ghandarvas are going to be in your main army, not every little province of the map. And they need a mage to lead them.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Actually, because Ulm's flails are so deadly, and all I have to do is reach Evo-4/Conj-3 to spam blade wind, Ulm could do reasonably well against the arrow throwing troops with Mighty Bucklers of Bandar. But a straight beat down is not what I'm looking for. I want to raid the hell out of him so he gets a good idea how problematic no PD is.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Lord Bob - you must play MA Ulm or I will completely ignore everything you have to say from this point on. And encourage all the other vets to do the same.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

MA Ulm won a game, I believe a newby game where the players didn't understand the magic system well enough to kill him.

But Ulm PD is indeed bad. But not nearly as bad as the Monkey PD. The key problem with the monkey PD is you don't even need to hit them. As long as you can survive the Monkey's minor damage long enough the deviated arrow damage will kill enough Markata to route them. At that point 1 or 2 more monkey deaths will take the entire PD below 1/2. This will force the entire PD to make a morale check every turn. You'll hit the 75% point pretty soon.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Fine. Since some people want to be smart-aleks without thinking, I'll take MA Ulm.

At least I won't have to think to much while I beat you.

Won't really raid to much, but heh, whatever.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Game on!

MA Ulm vs MA Bandar Log, the showdown.

Keep us updated...be like a little AAR.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I know! You don't have to rub it in, you meanie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Sheesh, what was I thinking?

Hey, I just realized: Meglo Bob and Lord Bob... is it your alt, perchance?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I can play the monkey side against ulm, I have time right now in fact...

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

In general, I think raiding is annoying, and that PD should be better. This is especially true for monkeys and giants.

There are a few game-balance points to consider, however:
* There are a few spells that are *only* useful for raiding, and call of the winds is *supposed* to be used for raiding. Making PD better makes these spells worse, and they are not hugeley competitive at present.

* There are several nations that depend on raiding to be competitive at certain stages of the game. Caelum, obviously, and the now-nerfed *heims.

So if I make a stronger/balanced PD mod, it should also compensate for those changes (cue: swallowed a cat, to catch the fly....)

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Hah, I know why you're getting nervous... Lord_bob has the set goal of getting more posts than your Perpetuality thread - in half the time! Be afraid, be very afraid...

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Send me the connection information, and map, and I can play tommorrow at around this time, or earlier.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I have time too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
But I think Bob wants to play tomorrow.

Ulm will die - crushed by my furry might.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

No relation at all!

I only have 1 posting name.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

One point of monkey PD is already enough to beat off a Call of Winds . (Had this happen in Perpetuality, where my 5 gold investment beat off five provinces worth of CoW castings).

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

I think several of us have all agreed to fight Lord_Bob. Being as I appear to be coming down with a fever I think I will step down. However, if the others (Shovah32? someone else?) can't play then I will take the reins - this game has to be fought!

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Homer and myself have both agreed. I personally feel that Homer would do better than I would, but I want to do this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

So I don't have to hurt my head calculating time zones, how many hours from now do you want to start? 14-20 hours from the time I posted this is a good range for me.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Really, I think we should have petitioned QM or the like to play the monkeys.

To clarify the OP's viewpoint, is it that bad PD makes ANY nation too weak, or just an already below-average nation? If we gave, say, Kailasa recruitable devatas, would they still be woefully underpowered?

If yes, then... err...
If no, then the OP argument goes out the window, since clearly balance CAN exist without PD...

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Actually, I had to restrain myself from volunteering, I really don't have time until the weekend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Desperate thread hi-jack
 

On another low morale furry PD subject. Have you looked at Sombre's Skaven mod ???

<font color="red"> WELL NOW IS YOUR CHANCE </font>

I have signed up for one of llamabeast's games, "Marmoset", not knowing I was to be out of the city for the weekend and need a sub.

The game has just begun and we are on turn three. It features one of Sombre's fine mod efforts, the Skaven, TO BE PLAYED BY YOU (for at least 3 or 4 turns of furry low morale PD action).

It has the added attraction of two further mod nations (Agra Dis and Ulm Reborn) on a modded map - the main mod is delivered in a single package prepared by llamabeast. It is easily installed and equally easily removed (Marmoset's game thread has instructions for this).

Please PM me if you are interested. Thanks.

We now return to regular programming .....

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Yeah, go ahead and play shovah if you want it so badly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif