Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

You do love to bring up the RPG-1 don't you ?

I have seen reports that Russia kept captured stocks of Panzerfausts available after the end of WW2 until the RPG-2 started to be produced. I personally did not add the "RPG-1 " to the Russian OOB but there IS info available about it. Russian troops were well known for using captured Panzerfausts during the war and it's not the least bit of a stretch to imagine they may have been kept around after the war as there were no other Infantry AT weapons of it's kind available.

If you Google "RPG-1" "Panzerfaust". you will find quite a number of hits

and you will find at --- http://www.battlefield.ru/cgi-bin/ik...=Print;f=2;t=6 quotes as .....

and it was on the strength of information like this that the "RPG-1" was added.

But here's an alternate opinion on the matter from the same message board

Here's a further quote on that line of thinking from http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-149364162.html

"never produced in quantity" is quite a bit different than " nonexistent weapon or shells (for example RPG-1)"

Is it ?


So we have

A/ your idea that no RPG-1 ever existed
B/ the idea that the RPG-1 was simply the Panzerfaust renamed "RPG-1" and used because of the huge number of captured weapons available
C/ the idea that the RPG-1 was a wholly a Soviet design based on a study of captured panzerfausts but wasn't produced in quantity.

Given those choices we decided to go with options B (and/or C )as there was more evidence something called an "RPG-1" existed than not.

OK ? That's why there is an "RPG-1" in our OOB. If you don't like it, you can take it out as you have done but it's a little tiresome to have this repeatedly used and an example of why your OOB is so much more "accurate" because you don't include it.


Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

There are no certificates that RPG-1 existed. RPG-1 was the experimental sample - works on its creation have ended in 1947-48 when was already ready RPG-2 which had more the best characteristics.
Also you will not find that any documentary proof that the Red Army used AFTER war - German panzerfaust or panzersrek.
Trophy panzerfaust and panzersrek - were transferred - to assault-engineering-sapernym parts of Red Army - during war 1944-45 and were used by them for carrying out of assault operations - for example, for destruction of well strengthened fire points of the opponent, storm of Berlin, etc.
AFTER war all trophy weapon was - is handed over on warehouses, the further destiny of this weapon to trace difficult.
I searched in Google - "RPG-1 grenade", "RPG-1", "Panzerfaust" - I have not found any information on that that RPG-1 there was on arms of Red Army, besides that this experimental weapon which was never produced in lots. Also I have not found the information on that that panzerfaust - were used by Red Army AFTER war.

p.s. I have resulted RPG-1 for an example, I can result for an example still the weapon from present OOB of which was not and was not present in USSR/Russia.

p.s.2. sorry for my bad English

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Greetings!

Drg, really, we haven't got any info about RPG-1 at Soviet forces. For example, I saw only articles describes that RPG-1 were only at experimental, small consignment (as many, many weapons which we can't see at our game).

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

http://diversant.h1.ru/guns/granatomet/rpg1.html

machine translator:

In 1944 on Research range mortars arms of the Main artillery management have begun works on creation manual anti-tank grenade-launcher a complex as a part of grenade cup discharge LPG-44 and cumulative grenade PG-70 (the head of works - the leading designer of range G.P.Lominsky).

70-mm HEAT the cumulative grenade was charged with gun grenade cup discharge parts. For a throwing charge of a grenade the smoky gun gunpowder placed in a tube pomegranates was used. Grenade stabilisation in flight was carried out by means of the rigid stabilizer.

The grenade cup discharge represented jet system of reusable application. It had a smooth trunk in length of calibre of 1000 mm of 30 mm. On a trunk the cock of type and an aim lath fastened the with great dispatch-trigger mechanism (front sights on a grenade cup discharge were not. Since the aiming was made through a cut of a sight and on the top edge of a grenade). On a grenade cup discharge trunk wooden thermoprotective overlays fastened.

In 1944-45 have been conducted range of test of the grenade cup discharge which has received after that the official name "Manual anti-tank grenade cup discharge RPG-1", and a grenade - PG-1. Preparation of a batch production and manufacturing of experimental batches of grenade cup discharges and grenades have begun. Carrying out of large-scale tests and complex acceptance was planned for arms. However the considerable time spent for completion of shots to a grenade cup discharge (it has been connected with unsatisfactory action of a grenade because of imperfection of its detonator, and lacks of a powder charge on stability of burning at various temperatures in the summer and in the winter), became the reason of an obsolescence of a complex. Works on RPG-1 proceeded till 1948, but to finish it it was not possible, and on arms it has not been accepted.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

It never ceases to amaze me the length people will go to argue useless trivialities. We are discussing a weapon than may or may not have been used or may or may not have been captured German war booty and since no real combat occurred where we could read historical references we'll never really know for sure. We DO know there was SOMETHING named "RPG-1" and it MAY have referred to a native Russian weapon or it MAY have referred to capture German weapons or it MAY actually refer to both. ....or neither

Some years ago a Russian presented us with info on a variety of Russian WW2 SP guns we didn't have in the game. These were rare types but because they "existed" we were asked to include them for "historical accuracy" so we did and spent some time researching and creating unit icons to match . Two years later ANOTHER Russian comes along and tells us we MUST remove all those units as they were experimental or never made it beyond a small handful of units.

So we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Keeping Russians happy seems to be a no win situation in regards to what ever we do with the Russian OOB so perhaps it's just as well you have created your own OOB. I have NO idea who included the "RPG-1" and although the "historical record" is more than just a little vague I suspect there are people on both sides of this issue ( trivial though it is ) I will consider it's removal when I get to the end of all the other work I have to do on this and the WW2 game

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Scenarios do not just refer to weapons data but also the units themselves and this MOD of the Russian OOB makes a complete mess of any scenario in the game that uses the Russian OOB in any way. The almost complete reorganization of the units means what is supposed to be a Mi-24 in a scenario now shows up as an IMR-3 or a BRDM-2 in a scenario has morphed into a PTS-M. I could list dozens , possibly hundreds, of units affected like this but I've got better things to do right now.

The bottom line is this OOB will destroy any scenario in the game that use the Russian OOB. We have already had one "bug" report from someone who couldn't figure out why the Russian scenarios in the game suddenly were a mess so anyone contemplating using this OOB should not be lulled into the false belief that this will not make a total mess out of the existing scenarios because it will. This is why we include " default" OOB's in the game.

Unfortunately we have no way to remind people they are not using the official OOB set when they try to play a scenario.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Ok, DRG, what is your OWN opinion - are such experimental weapons needed in game or not??

You are Master of the WinMBT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And I think you have got concepcion of game's design - or we (players) will see experimental weapons (and units) at the game (especially at 'historical' years) or not?

And don't concentrate attention on nationality please.
We can be Russians, or Italians or Dutch... But we does our work to help you to do this game more realistic.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I have followed this topic a long time and came to think this:could (Don? Andy?) make "sticked" topic into main forum about to warn players to restore original stuff before adding any modded OOBs/icons/etc.? Like "read this before d/l any modified files" or something?

Sorry if it's already exist. I just had not seen anything like this yet;)...

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

It really depends on the weapon and it's use. We have taken a number of units in both games that are questionable and put them into the Misc section of the OOB's as "prototypes". These are usually tanks and are put there for any number of reasons. I recently put the T-84 Yatagan from the Turk OOB into a Prototype unit class as it looks unlikely to be adopted but it's not certain it won't be. When it was added it seemed like a good possibility it would be purchased.

The "Black Eagle" in South Korean OOB is now also in a "prototype" formation in misc as well. When it was added it also seem possible it would be introduced but now that the K2 has been announced it seems unlikely but not so unlikely to remove it altogether. The Russian OOB for WW2, as I have mentioned previously has nine vehicles in an "experimental" formation now and four in "Prototype" class that had been in the OOB's because someone had insisted we include them to make things "more historically accurate" we removed them later for the same reason !

The "RPG-1" was added because a LOT of information we could find at the time hinted at it's existence but gave conflicting info if it was a Russian devise or a renamed German Panzerfaust but it did seem that SOMETHING had existed that was named "RPG-1" and at the time we really....and I mean REALLY had NO idea anyone would complain about it being there since it gave the Russians an infantry anti tank device to use up to the introduction of the RPG-2.

The bottom line here is at the time we had more info that said something existed than not so it was put in. It was one unit and one weapons slot so what harm could it do and since the PRG-2 was named "RPG-2" that was no doubt because there was a "RPG-1"....... Yes? As the info above indicates. It DID make it through the development stage and to "large-scale tests " and as far as "and complex acceptance was planned for arms " so it WAS accepted and HAD there been a conflict there is little doubt it would have been used but in the end the problems were too much and it appears all efforts were concentrated on the RPG-2. Your sources say it was never issued. That's fine. We did not have access to that source and in the end, it's just one source that conflicts others . Am I to assume then that you believe that only Russian Language sources are to be deemed correct for Russian weapons ?? Russian sources cannot be wrong?

The internet ( and printed books ) are not immune to error and neither are acclaimed "experts" I can easily find a half dozen sources that give conflicting information about the Carl Gustav and that weapon wasn't developed in secret under Stalin's rule.

However, it would appear that given all the evidence ( conflicting though it is ) that this weapon was unlikely to have been issued to front line units except maybe to test and that it's remove may be justified but in my case ( unlike third party Modders ) I can't just rip it out without considering the effect it's removal might have on any scenario that uses it so EVERY scenario needs to be checked for dates this unit might be used and then if a scenario is found with this unit it would need to corrected and rebuilt and then the picklists would need to be checked and altered because that would leave the Russian AI without an infantry AT unit for it's infantry AT formation from 1/46 - 12/48. That's another issue few consider when they make OOB "corrections" in third party OOB's

IF I have time I will consider this but I'm already putting in 10-12 hour days on these patches and I still have a number of other issues that need considering but it's "removal" is now on the list for consideration

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

It's certainly worth considering. We have posted an error reporting procedure but few pay any attention to it anymore though for awhile it was being followed. Sometimes adding more info means less people will read it. The sheer number of posts on this forum must be daunting to anyone new to the game and logging on for the first time.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

That link gives me this:




И|©БMMTTш&#1096

etc. etc. etc, etc, etc


EDITED ---One line would have been sufficient you make your point

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Just do right click, save as. Its the actual file, not an archive.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

new link for archive:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We will change our OOB and we will place our units as in original OOB.
Also we will change all our formations and picklists.

Dear DRG, we looked Russian picklists in game, and we think that it has become outdated. In him there are no many our armies, in him some our special armies or our military technics are not specified. Over it too it can be necessary to work? We would be ready to help with it.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

DRG, we do not think that one source of data can be better than another. Also we do not think that Russian sources NECESSARILY better or more precisely English-speaking sources. But we think that the information on Russian weapon is easier and faster and more precisely it is possible to find in Russian sources.
We also use the special literature, sites on the Internet, etc., we try to process as much as possible information on the weapon and armies.
In game, in our OOB, it is a lot of discrepancies and we wish to help to make real OOB our armies. What in it bad? Certainly these changes can lead to changes in game scenarios, but we also think that accuracy more important and we are assured that it is necessary to make once global changes in OOB. We also understand that you do not wish to do global changes OOB which can lead to changes in scenarios. Therefore we wish to show to you as we should look OOB. Certainly to decide personally - to accept to you changes or not.

We hope for your understanding.

Best regards.

p.s. sorry for my bad English

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Assuming that is what happened with the panzerfausts, did you stop to think about the role of these warehouses and depots? The standard one is to store equipment not needed in PEACE time. The game assumes there will be a war on, that's the whole point of the game. So it would be logical that weapons being held in storage would be used. And since no equivalent existed in the soviet armory until the RPG2 showed up, I'd say it is very likely that if the soviet union were to get involved in war during this period (which is what the game would model) these 'panzerfausts' would show up too.


The same really applies here; if war broke out there a good chance the RPG1 would be rushed through production even if it didn't perform perfectly yet. Militairy history, especially ww2, is full of such examples. I'll name just the Panther and the T34, they turned out rather well after a short while...

So including something like the RPG1 in the game seems sensible and logical to me.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

narwan
---------------------
Panzerfaust - was not the regular weapon of the Soviet army, it was the trophy weapon which fighters of red army used in WW2.
RPG-1 - Not only has not been started in a batch production, it has been underfulfilled to a level of production i.e. it is the experimental weapon.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

but for sure captured PzF stockpiles were kept in wartime reserves? Heck, last Thompsons from Lend-Lease tanks were in reserve till 1997! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

You want that tanks or machine guns on Lend-Lease have been presented at us in OOB? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I am assured that in OOB it is necessary to use the real weapon which was in armies or the weapon which was at war in wars.
I for example did not hear that in the Afghani war - the Soviet army used panzerfaust http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Yes I know and if the soviet union had gone to war in that period these would have been used by it's troops.
Your argument that they didn't use them historically is moot since there was no actual major war the soviet union was involved in in that period and the game assumes that there is!

The same applies to many other OB's. The dutch OB for the 80's is full of stuff that was not part of the active armed forces but which was still kept in some warehouse. By your reasoning this equipment would not have been used (for reserve forces or to replace combat losses) had the warsawpact and NATO gone to war in the 80's.
I can assure you it would have, just like the captured panzerfausts and experimental RPG1's would have been used by the soviets in the late 40's if the soviet union and the western allies had gone to war then.
The game models not just what's on the active inventory of armies in specific historical period's but also what has been stockpiled and mothballed and COULD have been used had war broken out.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Remco, I do appreciate your input here. You've been around long enough to know that there is no way, no matter what we do, could we possibly keep everyone happy .

There's just too many ways of looking at these issues. I'm reminded of " In service" debates that have occurred in the past where someone digs up info that some weapons or vehicle was "introduced" at a certain date but no one really knows for certain if that was the date the first one rolled off the assembly line or was delivered to the depot or was delivered to the troops for familiarization or the first date it actually entered front line service. Little details like that are rarely available so it's a judgment call for introduction dates. A vehicle could be given to troops for the first time in October for example but unless it's a minor modification of an existing unit there is little chance it would enter full operational service right away and that is why so many in service dates are January and probably if the issue was really dug into most of those January in service dates are wrong but really.....so what ? It a game not a historical record and really how many "historical records" do NOT have someone saying they are wrong ? The same is true for weapons taken out of front line service. A lot of assumptions need to be made , were they sent immediately to the wreaking yard ? Were they warehoused and if so, how long and if they were warehoused what other use could they have but to be used as they were intended "just in case" a conflict arose. As you astutely noted........ the entire POINT of this game is to simulate combat that in most cases never occurred. Does this mean we should include every weapon that was tested but not developed ?? NO !!--- but occasionally things like this crop up where including them helps game play and therefore becomes a "design decision" by us.... the game designers.

We are criticised when we are too flexible and allow a certain amount of ' What if" and criticised when we aren't . That was my entire point of mentioning the "experimental " SP guns in the WW2 Russian OOB.

The "RPG-1 issue is really rather amusing under the circumstances. Someone, long in the past, dug up info that something called an "RPG-1" that may or may not have existed in the late 1940's and maybe it was a native Russian device or MAYBE it referred to captured panzerfaust stocks and MAYBE the "truth" was a little of both but it seemed like something WAS in existence and since this gave the Russian OOB an infantry AT device from the beginning of 1946 until a bit past the introduction of the RPG-2. It's seemed a fair compromise even though the info on it was sketchy but we did need something to fill the gap on the OOB and that served the purpose. Nobody... and I mean NOBODY at the time would have ever imagined the amount of time that would be wasted years later debating this issue. And this "issue" goes much deeper and is a bigger PITA than is obvious here. In the Russian MBT OOB this is one weapon slot and ONE unit to deal with if we do deal with it ( "RPG-1"s also exist in the MBT Polish and Czech OOB's and is a separate PITA to deal with ) the biggest problem is the WW2 Russian OOB where 10 units currently use an "RPG-1" and it's looking like they are going to find themselves carrying " something else" if I decide to pull the weapon out.

The entire issue is developing into a very a big headache over what is really a very trivial "error" . It's all so MUCH easer to deal with when all you have to do is change an OOB and not consider the impact those changes make on other parts of the game.

However, in some cases simple problems can cause big headaches and problems that appear less simple can turn out to have simple fixes and in this case the "fix" is somewhere in between and should keep almost everyone happy

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

The USSR have anti-tank granades RPG-43 and RPG-6. After war all RPG-43 were not used in army and have been transferred to use in friendly allied armies. After war in the Soviet army granades RPG-6 were used.
I think after WW2 - panzerfaust also have been transferred to use to the allied countries USSR. There are no data confirming, that in armies were used after WW2 panzerfaust or RPG-1. In any lists of anti-tank tools of the USSR consisting on arms - is not present RPG-1 or panzerfaust.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I have understood you.
Whether means it, what if we were at war in 80th years with the western countries, we would have trophy TI, the ATGM-western manufacture, western tanks, etc.? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

change units:
units 169-171, 203 - change available from 2011.

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

or

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

KraMax


I'm having difficulty finding information that the 120mm Nona gun is issued with cluster munitions

The best I can find is something like this ......."capable of firing Rocket Assisted Projectiles (RAPs), 120mm HE-fragmentation, illuminating, smoke and incendiary mortar bombs including those designed for NATO's 120mm mortars."


......and none of those mentioned are cluster munitions.

If you could provide me with a source for this information I need it would be appreciated

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

HRW submunitons report (A GLOBAL OVERVIEW OF
EXPLOSIVE SUBMUNITIONS, 2002, don't have link but have PDF in my archive, may send it) lists a 120mm cluster shell with 35 DPICM for Russian Federation, however it might be pretty faulty or listing just experimental and never fielded warheads lumped together with real ones.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

OK, Thanks. I have that document now and I am digging deeper



Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

This was me... I have been playing this game since the 1990's and should have know what I had done without posting a query about it. I guess I had downloaded and installed this mod and had completely forgotten that I had done it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif I do like the mod though.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Dear DRG.

The big working out of set of an ammunition was made in the USSR in the mid 80th. For Nona - there is a set of shells, here their list:
Shells:
3VOF110
3VOF111
3VO34 - cluster munition + HEAT-fighting elements
3VO32 - cluster munition + HEAT-fighting elements
3VOF54
3VOF54-1
3VOF55
3VOF55-1
3VBK14
3OF49
3VOF49
3VOF51
3OF50
3BK19

Mines:
3VOF79
53-VOF-843B
3VOF68
3VOF53
3VOF69
3VOF57
3V34
3VS24
53-VD-843
3VD17
3VD16

+Any western shells 120mm

The information is received from the open sources, here one of them:
http://www.russarms.com/land/rva/tec...ona-s-base.asp

Here there is a discussion of these systems (these are sites of a military-air landing):
http://desantura.ru/forums/index.php? showtopic=3244&st=80
http://desantura.ru/forums/lofiversi...t2352-100.html

And here, the ORDER of the PRESIDENT of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION FROM MAY, 28TH, 1998 N 190-RP ABOUT PARTICIPATION of the RUSSIAN ORGANIZATIONS In the INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION of ARMS And the MILITARY TECHNICS "EUROSATORY ' 98":
http://infopravo.by.ru/fed1998/ch06/akt20362.shtm
Here it is written about these shells.

Best regards.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

change units:
units 473, 474 - change available until 2020.
units 436, 437 - change radio code 82 and 92

formation:
606-609 - change available from 2011

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

or

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Thanks for kind words.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Thank you.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

From that it would appear the "minimum range of shooting" is 450 metres ??

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Yes. You right.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Site of factory of the manufacturer of these systems:
(English)
http://www.artillery-mz.com/en/products/02/01/

Little bit out-of-date site. They probably are not engaged in it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Maxim

Here's a little research project for you. I only get half way with the English and Russian sources I have.

The G-11 Glider was added to the MBT Icon files in the past with the intention of adding it to the Russian OOB. The evidence I have is that aircraft was produced in two batches. The first batch early in the war then the second batch started again in 1944 and remained in production until 1948. ( NOTE: this may be a translation error where "in production until 1948" was mis-translated from an original document that really meant it was..."in service until 1948" but that's just one guess.)

OK good so far. It appears there should be G-11 gliders in the MBT Russian OOB ( which is why I added the Icon in the first place... ) however. I can find NOTHING to tell me when they were withdrawn from service.( aside from the guess I made above ) One might assume they were replaced by the Yak-14 and 1948 does tie in closely to the Yak's introduction but assumptions are usually wrong. I'm guessing the G-11 was withdrawn in the early 1950's. In the case of the Yak 14 ALL sources I have points to them being withdrawn from service in the late 1950's yet you have them in-service until the mid 1960s'

So..... how long did both gliders really stay in Russian service??

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Dear DRG.

I will be glad to help you.

The second name of glider G-11 is name G-29. G-29 there was its name in the course of working out of projects, then it has received the name by quantity of transported commandoes of 11 persons - G-11. This glider is easier for finding by name of G-29, than G-11.

http://easyget.narod.ru/air/g_11.html
http://www.avia-rest.ru/g/g29.php
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/g29.html

In descriptions of this glider it is said, that this glider was not made since 1945 for 1946, but then it made till 1948. In these descriptions of history of a glider there is nothing about when this glider have removed from arms.
I have looked data in other gliders were on arms and have found.
In the description of glider C-25:

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/c25.html

Here there is a description that after glider tests in 1948, in 1 year gliders G-11 have begun have removed from arms of Red Army. And in 1951-53 replacements of all gliders on Yak-14 have begun. I think it were possible to tell with confidence that since 1953 in Red Army only Yak-14.

Yours faithfully.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Thank you. That's close to what I found and guessed for the G-11/G-29 as well.

However. The info I am finding on Russian Military gliders in general is that they were withdrawn from service in the late 1950's. "In the late 1950s transport gliders were withdrawn from service, as obsolete mean of transport" as Helicopeter became more numerous and reliable is typical of the remarks What do you have that shows them being in service into the 1960's? The translations I've run have not been very helpful.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I have not found exact date of removal from arms of all gliders in the Soviet Army.
Last serial glider of the Soviet Army - Yak-14.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/yak14.html

In the description it is told that:

"Very soon all of them have replaced on An-12, Mi-4 etc."

But exact date it is not written. I think that indeed, all gliders have removed from arms prior to the beginning of 1960.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

photos Yak-14:

http://www.avia-yk.ru/images/yk14/yak14-3.jpg
http://www.avia-yk.ru/images/yk14/yak14-2.jpg
http://www.avia-yk.ru/images/yk14/yak14-4.jpg
http://www.avia-yk.ru/images/yk14/yak14-6.jpg
http://www.avia-yk.ru/images/yk14/yak14-7.jpg
http://www.avia-yk.ru/images/yk14/yak14-8.jpg

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

change units:
units 898, 899, 900 - change carry 124.
available until 89 max.
unit 901 - rename, change carry 130. available from 90.
unit 905 - rename. change carry 136. available from 97.

remove units:
unit 906 - Mi-17 - export variants and export name.

change formations:
formations 654-659

new formations 675-680

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf
or
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

photos Mi-8ATMSh
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/mi8amts_01.jpg

photos Mi-8MTV-5
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/Mi-8MTV-5.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/w_Mi-8MTV-5_01.jpg

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

change units:
units 909, 910, 911 - change size=3.

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf
or
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Hi Don,

I have just stumbled upon the book, dedicated to rocket assisted grenades in Russian army. As it is in Russian, I will just summarize info about RPG-1 and RPG-2 found there. BTW it is free for download at http://www.army.lv/?s=2002 / direct link: http://www.army.lv/files/133.pdf

RPG-1 was developed from 1944 to 1947. The development was finally canceled due to "much time lost on finalizing the grenades (this was connected with unsatisfactory performance caused by imperfect function of fuse ...) leading to moral obsolescence of the complex. Works did not continue in 1948, the weapon was not finished and it was not accepted in service."

Practical firing distance on target height 2m was 50 meters, penetration 150mm. Grenade weight 1.6 kg, initial speed 40 m/s. Calibre of weapon 30mm, grenade 70mm. Grenade designation PG-70.

Works on RPG-2 started at 1947, in 1949 it was accepted for service. 1957 appeared new modification which had some infra sight and was designated RPG-2N (probably N=nocnoy=night).

Practical firing distance on target height 2m was 100 meters, penetration 200mm. Grenade weight 1.84 kg, initial speed 84 m/s. Calibre of weapon 40mm, grenade 80mm. Grenade designation PG-2.

The book seems pretty reliable and realistic (Russian sources are sometimes biased, so one must be careful). For example, recently discussed B-11 has following data: practical firing distance on target height 2m was 450 meters, penetration 290mm. Grenade weight 12.54 kg, initial speed 400 m/s. Calibre 107mm.

Regards,
badger45

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

In this book it is written that aim range of shooting B-10 = 1000 metres and B-11=1200 metres. But these data do not coincide with data taken of the documentation (the shooting table) to these guns.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

It very much depends on what you define as aim range, which is not specified there and therefore does not interest me.

BTW I see, the edition is from 1965... I wonder if it is possible, that during about 10 years between first model of B-10 and the edition of the manual there was some modernization of sight. It looks quite different than more primitive equipment of SPG-82. What I suggest is, that 1000 meters were used with early models from middle fifties and 1400 meters applies to newer ones of middle sixties. But that is only hypothesis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Regards,
badger45

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

There are no data about that that B-10 or B-11 were modernised sometime. There is a table of shooting of these tools, the crew conducts shooting under these tables. The distance of 1400 metres - HEAT will overcome a shell approximately for 5 seconds.
The distance of 450 metres - speaks only about that that this distance of a direct shot for which it is not necessary to regulate a sight.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

new photos:

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/foto1.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/foto2.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/foto3.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/foto4.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/foto5.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/brdm-2m30ags.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/4/brdm-2m30ags2.jpg

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I have some organization questions.
What was the structure of a soviet border guard company in the 1970-1990 timeframe?

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Same as well as at mech. infantry on BTRs.
Links on proofs at me is not present. Believe it the truth.
It is important to divide frontier guards into special maneuverable group of fast reaction and the usual frontier guards who were on duty on border. The arms of frontier guards were sometimes much better than at usual armies in the heart of the country.

sorry for my bad English.