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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
I had forgotten the generic master enslave got a boost, you are probably right it could go back to normal, I think it was a holdover from dom2 where there were less items to break through MR.
The other enslave spells I'm more skeptical about. I have yet to see them cast in base or CB, and in any case undead and magic beings tend to dominate the late game. I would not be apposed to tweaking rain of stones, however I don't think it is possible to make air shield negate if it does not already, and defense negates is a bit too similar to earthquake. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
i hope for an update of this excellent mod as soon as the next patch ( 3.16?) is out.
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
3.16 has a number of bugs that are being ironed out in beta. It is more likely the next release version is 3.17 or 3.18, depending on how JK and KO wish to go with it.
I expect this mod will be updated sometime after that. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
I haven't examined the mod in great detail, however, I've recently signed on to play a game using Conceptual Balance. Playing Mictlan I've noticed that the price of my slingers have changed.
Though I understand that most slingers are made to cost less gold, Mictlan's slingers are better stat-wise then the average slinger. Their stats are average all around. A solidly average unit should cost 10 gold plus or minus any racial advantage. The racial advantage for Mictlan is forest survival and an already cheap cost. (The solidly average troops of Mictlan are 9 gold.) Making the slingers even cheaper seems to me to break the standard. Gold pays for the experience of the soldier and resource pays for their gear. That said, the fact they are slingers are expressed in their cheap resource cost, not their gold cost. Though this objection calls for me to be put at a disadvantage, especially since I plan on using slingers in my strategy, I think they are unfairly priced in this mod. The Mictlan slinger can beat the daylights out of a normal slinger any day. They have the attack value, the defense value, the moral score, the encumbrance, and the movement of a soldier, therefore, I think they should be priced as a soldier with the standard Mictlan racial advantage of 9 gold. I'm of course willing to here the reasoning for this change before I determine this to be my final opinion. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
Well, if you want the short answer, it's because Mictlan's sacred troops so far outclass all their other options.
The more thematic explanation is that I've increased Mictlan'a racial advantage, with respect to normal troops prices, to cost only 7 gold by default. Perhaps this could be seen as a drastic step, but I have yet to hear anyone complain about Mictlan being more terrifying with slingers than jaguar warriors. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
Well, then the costs are inconsistent. Only the armor-less slingers are 7 gold. The armored slingers are 8 gold and the other solidly average troops are still 9 gold. Yet for all of these troops the stats on the soldier are identical, only the gear changes.
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.21 (feedback)
You bring up an issue that I've been struggling with since creating CB, and to be honest I'm rather relieved I'm not the only one bothered by it. 95% of people just don't care how costs are arrived at so long as it's balanced in the end. But I certainly agree I'd rather have a tidy set of rules to reach such a balanced state.
Unfortunately, it's not always easy to this just with equipment rec costs, given some combinations of equipment are so much better than others. And, besides, it makes some sense some equipment is easier to train people in than others. So, I have used some gold cost guidelines which I'll be the first to admit have been far from universally adopted across the game. 1. Troops with one single handed weapon and no shield are 1 gold cheaper. 2. Troops with only short spears and maces have 1 gold cheaper. 3. Troops that don't have to be trained to fight in armor (2 enc or more) are 1 gold cheaper. This is actually the more general rule, rather than adjusting the Mictlan racial advantage. I agree the current Mictlan setup does not quite fit this metric either, it could use some more tweaking. In the end however, such tiny changes are more aesthetic than anything else. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Is a new version of the mod planned to reflect the changes of the 1.17 patch ?
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Couple of things I just noticed playing as Bogarus.
The Grid Druzhina are missing their composite bows and have lances instead, something not present on their graphic. Meanwhile the elite cavalry one step up from them have lost their lances and gained composite bows. Clearly just a mistake. Also I'm not seeing the value of the Kalendologists. They are beaten as researchers by basically every other mage Bogarus has and the Names have the fortune telling bonus they do, while being far more likely to be kept in key provinces researching. The Names are also strictly better casting mages for only being 133% of the price. The Astrapelagist meanwhile is similar but lacks fortune telling and gains an extra magic pick - it's A2S1 instead of S2, so probably about the same as battle mages. I can see the use of the Astrapelagist because they have air and can communion up, but the Kalendologist is totally outclassed by the Names, less of a good deal than the occultist and Astra,... I'm not sure what the point of it is. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Horst: Yes.
Sombre: The cavalry thing is on the fix list. I had also noticed the lack of a niche for that s2 mage, but I have not yet come up with a thematic change. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Couple more little issues.
The Knight Commander unit #23 has hoof when he should have warhorse hoof. I still believe the Great Bear unit got via sloth of bears and summon animals needs a bite attack. He currently just has claw and with att 9 rarely hits much - Bears can obviously attack with their claws and bite and are known as extremely fearsome animals, so for me it makes total sense for them to have this second attack. There are plenty of similar creatures who get two attacks in this way. For MA Shinuyama, Bakemono Shamans which are H1 + 1 random EFWD I believe,.. cost 90 gold? Seems a bit pricey. I know they are stealthy bakemono leaders with 40 leadership but they only have 2RP so even with magic 3 they aren't optimal researchers really. I basically don't build them. Also the Bakemono scout has 40 leadership. This is actually very useful because otherwise you don't have a leader with forest and mountain survival and stealth to lead your little bakemono around,... but I'm not sure if it's intentional. He costs a mere 25 gold. I could go on a bit about some of the national summons for Shinuyama, but I believe I've already done that. They aren't exactly a great deal currently. Finally on the Bakemono theme,..I know I say this every time but WHY ARE BAKEMONO SIZE 2? They are so clearly size 1 units that it hurts my brain to try and think of KOs reasoning for them being size 2. The tiny little oni are the same size and those are size 1. Vaetti are the same size, have similar equipment/role/genetics,.. and they are size 1. Clockwork horrors are size 1. Hoburgs are size 1. I just don't get it. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
I was also wondering about crude shortbows. They don't appear to work with flaming arrows, which is a fairly major nerf to the races that use them. Just thought you should keep it in mind - it's probably more of a drawback than the -1 to dmg and prec.
Perhaps the armoured bakemono archers should have regular shortbows. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Is there a complete list of the changes that this mod will effect as opposed to having no mod at all?
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Not as of the moment. The readmes cover a lot, but they are significantly out of date. One of the reasons the next version is taking so long is I want to update the documentation as well.
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Great, I'm playing in a game with the mod and I have no idea what's in it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Kind of a big advantage to the people who already know the permutations, ouch. In fact, I can't even find a link to 1.0 for the original changes, that all the rest are just updates to... the links in the 1.1 thread are broken. This is a frustrating mod to use if you haven't followed it along for the last few years or however long it's been in existence, and it's quite difficult trying to research the changes so that I can knowedgably create a pretender that is effective, when there isn't even a place to start! |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
I had that exact same problem too. That's why I didn't want to get into CB at all.
Quantum claims that now everything is useful, at least in some situations... It's probably better to look how the changes affect your national mages and choose a simple, strong pretender. Lord of War and Celestial General and some other pretenders like Lord of the Gates now generate lots of chaff or even some useful units. Getting dozens of indy medium infantry and knights can be useful. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
I'm in the same boat. So basically I just picked a race, played a few times in SP modifying pretender to get what ithink isbest, and will play it by ear http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
As a new player I would prefer it if people didn't run MP games on mods which aren't fully documented, but hey its my choice to play it! |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Notes on bogarus summons. I'm going to organise all of my notes and comparisons between cbm and basegame summons into a doc in the near future.
BOGARUS LA Conjuration Summon Simargl - A1, RL2 - 1 / 1 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. With flight and patrol bonus 10 these things are damn near the perfect patrollers. In fact they're basically Celestial Hounds with all the patrol and little of the combat ability. I personally think they'd be more fun if there were lots of them and they had less patrol bonus. I think bringing their patrolbonus down to 3 and setting them at 2 / 5 would be a good idea - that way they might also be used in a combat role now and then. Summon Firebird - F1S1, RL3 - 1 / 2 Vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Nearly as fragile as a random hawk and size 3, but with an 10 ap capped damage fire attack - still don't hit very hard. The problem is they're too expensive and too hard to mass given their ridiculously short life expectancy and fairly weak offense. The concept here is a unit which can harm ethereals/elites and is pretty destructive, like a one-off fire spell. I think they should be given a medium fireshield and firepower 1 (more thematic than anything). Cost of 5 / 4 or even cheaper is needed to make them useful. Summon Lady Midday - A1D1, RL3 - 1 / 1 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Average. One in four Starets can cast this, but they will almost certainly have better things to do. Fear 0, flight, ethereality and a powerful weapon is counterbalanced by subhuman stats. Everything about them screams undead to me, yet they are magic beings. With flying boots you can have a commander lead a squad of them around, but they're very hard to mass. They're sort of like downgraded Morrigans though one use for them might be attacking and diseasing a SC pretender. I'd like to see them at 5 / 5 or thereabouts. Contact Sirin - S2, RL3 - 1 / 8 Vanilla, 1 / 8 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A straightforward flying seducer. Note that as seducers and not succubi, they need to border your territory which makes them less impressive. They do seem to have decent seduction ability, though they are unlikely to kill anything but the weakest mage if they fail. I think the cost is ok, though astral pearls are worth more. Send Vodyanoy - W2, RL4 - 1 / 20 Vanilla, 1 / 20 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Remote Commander summon. None of the recuitable mages can cast this, but it is only W2 and provides a W3N1 mage itself, so it could get cast. It's unusual in that it's an aquatic unit with stealth. W3 is pretty useful but combined with N1,.. CLAMS AHOY! It's a really good summon with two big drawbacks in that it's aquatic only and, for Bogarus, very hard to cast. Cost seems ok therefore. Summon Rusalka - W1D1, RL4 - 1 / 16 Vanilla, 1 / 16 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Like the Vodyanoy, she can't be cast by recruitables but if you get one, it can summon more. She's another seducer, this time amphibious, which could maybe come in handy. As a mage summon she's W1D1 so doesn't grant any new paths and her ability to lead troops underwater only extends to 5 guys, which is effectively useless. Hard to cast, no clear use,.. 1 / 10 or even lower. Contact Alkonost - S2, RL4 - 1 / 15 Vanilla, 1 / 15 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. You get a H3 flying commander with standard 20, so clearly it's good for supporting mundane troops. Bogarus' regular H3 is rarely built after all. I think the cost might be ok due to niche uses, though I think she should have magic leadership to lead firebirds and middays. Summon Likho - D1, RL4 - 1 / 10 Vanilla, 1 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. They can spam curse and as ranged units can be told to target large units for example. But that's all they can do - curse one thing per round. Curse is annoying but hardly terrifying. I think they're supposed to be used vs multiple elite units, but even there just cursing stuff isn't very helpful. I would never, ever pay 10 gems for one. I suggest 1 / 2. It seems drastic, but they really do need that kind of reduction to be worth it. Summon Zmey - F2, RL5 - 1 / 8 Vanilla, 1 / 8 CBM. Castability: Easy. All Starets can summon these and Alchemists could with a small boost. The fact that these are cold blooded is a bit of a pain, but they are offensively powerful and fairly tough. Like upgraded wyverns. Though they have a breath attack their utility is as melee fliers. I am unsure if these are affected by the Dragon Master spell, which is a major consideration when costing. If they aren't, I think they should be considerably cheaper - 1 / 4. Though better than wyverns they are harder to cast, higher research and national, after all. Send Bukavac - W4, RL5 - 1 / 5 Vanilla, 1 / 5 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Remote Indy? summon. Even harder to cast than the Vodyanoy. To be honest I can't comment on this currently because I'm not sure if it's an indy summon or what. If it's a troop summon you clearly can't use it offensively. I will say the unit itself is pretty impressive - similar to an asp turtle. Contact Gamayun - S3, RL5 - 1 / 25 Vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. You get a S2A2H2 flying commander with fortune teller. As a mage summon the paths aren't helpful, but as a commander it has clear utility and fits a variety of roles. It's one of those jack of all trades mid level commanders like the Kinnara for monkey nations. With 30 magic leadership it can lead your middays and firebirds. The only trouble is that it doesn't give anything new for the price - I think 1 / 20 would be better. Contact Beregina - W3E1, RL6 - 1 / 35 Vanilla, 1 / 35 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Like the previous two water summons, this requires planning to cast. Unlike it's little sister the Rusalka it isn't a stealthy seducer. Instead it has W3E1N2, so it actually does offer a new path in nature. It's amphibious and can bring 10 people underwater with it,.. the problem is it's hard to cast and in many cases the Vodyanoy is going to be a better bet. I suggest a reduction to 1 / 25. Contact Cloud Vila - A4, RL7 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. Although Bogarus has A2 mages it has virtually no chance of A3 and air is hard to boost up. Cloud Vilas are A3S1N2 so do offer diversity, though they aren't a great deal for that. They are nice flying mages but aren't thuggable unlike Air Queens. They're more comparable with Faery Queens - they have heal 20 instead of 30 and weaker nature magic. They also don't come with sprites. Overall Faery Queens are better and only one research level higher. Cloud Vilas are slightly easier to cast, but not by much. I think they should be 1 / 30 to reward actually getting A4 and to elevate this national above the faery queen. They do have seduce but I'm not sure how strong it is. Contact Mountain Vila - N4, RL7 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Bogarus has no nature mages. This summons one of course. Your best bet to getting the nature required is by boosting the N2 Cloud Vila. The problem is the Cloud Vila is also hard to cast. They don't fly, are N3S1A2 and are healer 40, twice as good as Cloud Vilas. One comparison here is with Ivy Kings who also offer N3, worse mages, but tougher and cheaper. Mountain Vilas are fragile like their Cloud sisters and slightly worse battlemages. Again I think 1 / 30. They offer little in the way of paths, but do have some useful abilities like healer and seduce (depending on how good it is). Contact Leshiy - N6, RL8 - 1 / 60 vanilla, 1 / 60 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. If you can get to N4 for the Mountain Vila you can probably stretch to N6 for this. Outside of forests he basically sucks with crappy magic and a lack of brawn. In a forest he's a size 6 monster with N4E2A2W1, full slots, a great deal of brawn, regen - plus he can change into a size 6 trampling super bear. He's definitely cool and a powerful SC chassis, but ONLY in the forest. As a mage summon he nets you no new paths. For that reason I think he should be substantially cheaper, like 1 / 40. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
LA GATH
Conjuration Summon Mazzikim - N1, RL3 - 8 / 3 Vanilla, 8 / 3 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These are basically imps. Their high defence is a plus and they have two attacks and good att, but with low str they aren't going to do that much in combat. Their cost is already pretty much fair, which sets the tone for these summons. Call Malakh - S2, RL4 - 1 / 9 Vanilla, 1 / 9 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. The Malakh is potenitally thuggable, though its stats are only that of a semi-elite human warrior. It does have stealth, shock and fire res 50 and awe+3 as well as flight with mapmove 4. Having full slots it makes an ok budget raiding thug along the lines of the black servant or Bane, since it's H1 it benefits from a bless too. They have no leadership ability so that's all they're good for. I think the price is ok for that. Summon Lilot - N4, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. You can get them by climbing nature the traditional way using an Abba as a base. These are effectively the same as Succubi - they have the same version of seduce that brings the converted commander to your home province. They have ever so slightly worse stats than the blood summon, but it's barely noticeable. I think they might be slightly overpriced and I'd be happier with them at 1 / 20 or so. They are just weaker succubi after all. Call Hashmal - S3F1, RL6 - 1 / 21 vanilla, 1 / 21 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. None of your recruitables have the magic to cast them and even getting S and F on one caster is quite unlikely. Still you can get to S3 with a boosted Kohen Gadol and then empower with 1 fire. These guys are clearly made for thugging. Awe+4, fireshield 8, H2, flying, ethereal, fire immune, shockres - only drawback is only 2 hand and 2 misc slots. Still I think they're well worth the cost as anti chaff thugs. Call Arel - S4N1, RL7 - 1 / 39 vanilla, 1 / 39 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. You're again looking at boosting S2 to S4 then empowering to cast. These aren't made to be thugs, but they could perform the role slightly better than Malakhs due to higher hp and awe+5. Their real feature is healer 50 which is pretty impressive and N3H3, which does provide Gath with a new path,.. sort of. It's not worth it to get them as thugs, not really worth it for the paths either. I think they need a cost decrease, but there seems to be some thematic pricing going on, so I don't know what to suggest, maybe 1 / 31 ? Call Ophan - S5F2, RL8 - 1 / 49 vanilla, 1 / 49 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. Everything that is true of the Hashmal is also true of the Ophan, though the Ophan is an upgrade in almost every respect with better hp, awe, fireshield, H3 and full shock and poison immunity on top of the fire immunity. Crucially they have natural prot of 21. They are enc 1 flying tramplers and they have patrolbonus 50, not that you'd use them for patrolling. You also get mapmove 5 and they're lifeless which is a plus for avoiding certain pitfalls. They are pretty much the ultimate chaff killers. The only downside is they only have 2 misc slots. I think the price is probably fair. Call Merkavah - S7F3, RL9 - 5 / 222 vanilla, 5 / 222 CBM. You get 1 Chayot commander and 4 Ophanim troops. Castability: Impossible. Almost certainly a pretender summon. The Chayot is a completely bat**** unit on par with the Seraph. It has 4 forms - S4, A4, F4 and E4 which it can change through at will. They are all shock, fire and poison immune, have awe+6, H4, flight with mapmove 6, fireshield 10, full slots and excellent stats. If he's in his S4 form in battle you have to kill him 4 times effectively before he dies. If he's A4 it's 3 times, F4 it's 2 and if he's in E4 by choice you can finally kill him with no second shapes. All this and he isn't even unique. The Ophanim are nearly as good as troops as they are as commanders. I don't even know where to start with a spell summoning this much muscle. I think 222 seems reasonable though. It really is that powerful. Enchantment Memories of Stone - D2E1, RL5 - 5+ / 10 vanilla, 5+ / 10 CBM. Castability: Easy. Fossil warriors are magic and undead which is extremely unusual. Like statue summons they have super high prot of 25, enc 0 and are actually pretty solid in combat. I think the costing here is fine. It's much like 'enliven statues' really. Blood Summon Se'irim - B2, RL3 - 8 / 33 vanilla, 8 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These guys have some serious offensive power with 3 attacks at str 16 att 13 and berserk +4. They're also sacred. I'm pretty sure they're costed about right - great summon. Summon Shedim - B3A1, RL4 - 3 / 32 vanilla, 3 / 32 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. Essentially you have to empower a boosted Kohen Gadol in air, but have no access to air gems. If you compare them with storm demons they are physically a bit more powerful and better in melee, but lack ethereality. Other than that they are very similar and should be costed similarly. Hence I suggest 3 / 20. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
MA ASHDOD
Conjuration Summon Mazzikim - N1, RL3 - 8 / 3 Vanilla, 8 / 3 CBM. Castability: Average. Though Ashdod has no nature mages, getting N1 with indies isn't hard and that's all you need. Of course you'll probably be short on gems making them less attractive. These are basically imps. Their high defence is a plus and they have two attacks and good att, but with low str they aren't going to do that much in combat. Their cost is already pretty much fair. Call Malakh - S2, RL4 - 1 / 9 Vanilla, 1 / 9 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. The Malakh is potenitally thuggable, though its stats are only that of a semi-elite human warrior. It does have stealth, shock and fire res 50 and awe+3 as well as flight with mapmove 4. Having full slots it makes an ok budget raiding thug along the lines of the black servant or Bane, since it's H1 it benefits from a bless too. They have no leadership ability so that's all they're good for. I think the price is ok for that. Summon Lilot - N4, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Ashdod has no nature mages, so getting to N4 and having the gems is unlikely outside of a pretender choice. These are effectively the same as Succubi - they have the same version of seduce that brings the converted commander to your home province. They have ever so slightly worse stats than the blood summon, but it's barely noticeable. I think they might be slightly overpriced and I'd be happier with them at 1 / 20 or so. They are just weaker succubi after all. Call Hashmal - S3F1, RL6 - 1 / 21 vanilla, 1 / 21 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. The Talmai has less than 1% chance of being S3F1. Hence this requires empowering a S3 Talmai in fire. These guys are clearly made for thugging. Awe+4, fireshield 8, H2, flying, ethereal, fire immune, shockres - only drawback is only 2 hand and 2 misc slots. Still I think they're well worth the cost as anti chaff thugs. Dirge for the Dead - D3H1, RL6 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon, Summons up a Ditanu. These guys have only weak magic but great stats for thugging. Essentially ethereal fear+1 rephaim commanders. They come with full slots and decent equipment out of the box and are sacred. Price seems fair. Call Arel - S4N1, RL7 - 1 / 39 vanilla, 1 / 39 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Ashdod has base S3 mages which helps, but have more trouble than Gath getting nature gems to empower. These aren't made to be thugs, but they could perform the role slightly better than Malakhs due to higher hp and awe+5. Their real feature is healer 50 which is pretty impressive and N3H3, which grants nature access to Ashdod, something they lack entirely. Possibly worth it for the path, almost certainly not worth it as a thug. I think they need a cost decrease, but there seems to be some thematic pricing going on, so I don't know what to suggest, maybe 1 / 31? Call Ophan - S5F2, RL8 - 1 / 49 vanilla, 1 / 49 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. Everything that is true of the Hashmal is also true of the Ophan, though the Ophan is an upgrade in almost every respect with better hp, awe, fireshield, H3 and full shock and poison immunity on top of the fire immunity. Crucially they have natural prot of 21. They are enc 1 flying tramplers and they have patrolbonus 50, not that you'd use them for patrolling. You also get mapmove 5 and they're lifeless which is a plus for avoiding certain pitfalls. They are pretty much the ultimate chaff killers. The only downside is they only have 2 misc slots. I think the price is probably fair. Banquet for the Dead - D4H1, RL8 - ? / 55 Vanilla, ? / 55 CBM. Castability: Easy. Summons 1 Malik commander and ? Ditanim troops. An additional cost is the death of the caster. I'm not sure exactly how many Ditanim troops you get, but it can't be many. The Malik is basically an undead ethereal fear+7(!!) Malqart. Where the Ditanu is a thug, this is potentially an SC. Again, full slots, sacred and good starting equipment, but here you also have useful buffing magic - D2B2H2 with 2 in a FES random as well. This does give Ashdod access to blood, but only B2 and they still don't have a blood hunter of any sort, so it isn't hugely important. It's worth noting these guys have shattered soul 15%. If there are 4 or so Ditanim (as I suspect) this is a well costed spell and needs no change. Call Merkavah - S7F3, RL9 - 5 / 222 vanilla, 5 / 222 CBM. You get 1 Chayot commander and 4 Ophanim troops. Castability: Impossible. Almost certainly a pretender summon. The Chayot is a completely bat**** unit on par with the Seraph. It has 4 forms - S4, A4, F4 and E4 which it can change through at will. They are all shock, fire and poison immune, have awe+6, H4, flight with mapmove 6, fireshield 10, full slots and excellent stats. If he's in his S4 form in battle you have to kill him 4 times effectively before he dies. If he's A4 it's 3 times, F4 it's 2 and if he's in E4 by choice you can finally kill him with no second shapes. All this and he isn't even unique. The Ophanim are nearly as good as troops as they are as commanders. I don't even know where to start with a spell summoning this much muscle. I think 222 seems reasonable though. It really is that powerful. Blood Summon Se'irim - B2, RL3 - 8 / 33 vanilla, 8 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. No blood magic on recruitables, no blood hunter. Ashdod can get to blood via summoning of Maliks, but essentially they aren't going to be using this spell. These guys have some serious offensive power with 3 attacks at str 16 att 13 and berserk +4. They're also sacred. I'm pretty sure they're costed about right - great summon, just not for Ashdod. Summon Shedim - B3A1, RL4 - 3 / 32 vanilla, 3 / 32 CBM. Castability: Impossible. You'll basically need a pretender for these and even then you haven't got a blood hunter. If you compare them with storm demons they are physically a bit more powerful and better in melee, but lack ethereality. Other than that they are very similar and should be costed similarly. Hence I suggest 3 / 20. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Sombre:
Don't forget that Chayot needs some troops around if he has to get into second shape after death. If he is alone he starts to flee if he loses 75% HP of hist first shape. But yeah, great guy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
EA HINNOM
Conjuration Summon Mazzikim - N1, RL3 - 8 / 3 Vanilla, 8 / 3 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These are basically imps. Their high defence is a plus and they have two attacks and good att, but with low str they aren't going to do that much in combat. Their cost is already pretty much fair. Summon Lilot - N4, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. Hinnom can use the Acha and bootstrap up in the normal way, so casting this isn't too tough. These are effectively the same as Succubi - they have the same version of seduce that brings the converted commander to your home province. They have ever so slightly worse stats than the blood summon, but it's barely noticeable. I think they might be slightly overpriced and I'd be happier with them at 1 / 20 or so. They are just weaker succubi after all. Blood Summon Se'irim - B2, RL3 - 8 / 33 vanilla, 8 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These guys have some serious offensive power with 3 attacks at str 16 att 13 and berserk +4. They're also sacred. I'm pretty sure they're costed about right - great summon. Summon Shedim - B3A1, RL4 - 3 / 32 vanilla, 3 / 32 CBM. Castability: Hard. Getting the blood is even less of a problem than it is for Gath, but blood and air combined is still a bit tricky. Unlike Gath Hinnom does have an air mage in the Ammi and will have air gems, so empowering the blood mage to A1 is much easier. If you compare them with storm demons they are physically a bit more powerful and better in melee, but lack ethereality. Other than that they are very similar and should be costed similarly. Hence I suggest 3 / 20. Release Lord of Civilization - B8, RL9 - 1 / 177 vanilla, 1 / 177 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Unique Commander summon. You get one of the 6 corrupted grigori. Though you have easy access to B3 via the Baal, getting to B8 is far from trivial. That said, it is doable and indeed desirable. My feeling is all of these are well worth the cost - they are all powerful and diverse casters and sacred SCs with flight, mapmove 5, full slots, blood vengeance, shock/fire/poison immunity, varying strengths of fear and stealth. They are also all demons AND magic beings which is worth bearing in mind. Four of them are mage/fortune tellers, the second in command Semyaza is a mage/healer (100!) and Azazel is more of a devoted SC (with an amazing default sword). Again though, any one of them makes an excellent mage or SC and through them you can gain access to unboosted S5, F4, N4, B5, A4 and E4 depending on which you get. Though they are described as seducers, they actually have a totally unique command: "Corrupt Enemy Commander" which works like a Succubus attempt. Semyaza and Azazel are the best at this, but it does mean they are all assassins effectively. I wouldn't suggest reducing the cost at all. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
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Anyway, thanks for the write ups on the new nation summons, my gut feeling on most of them is similar to yours, most look fairly decent already. Though I do think you overrate those nature gem costing imps a bit. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
I don't know that I agree about the impossibility of casting Call Merkavah with national troops. At least with Hinnom, you have S3 casters and can forge Starshine Skullcap, Crystal Coin, Ring of Sorcery, Ring of Wizardry, Skull of Fire. Getting to S7F3 then takes either 80 Fire gems of empowerment (S3F2 + Starshine Skullcap/Crystal Coin/Ring of Wizardry/Skull of Fire) or 50 Fire gems + 60(?) Pearls (S4F1 + Starshine Skullcap/Crystal Coin/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry). Normally that would sound like a lot, but when you're already talking about blowing 220 pearls on the spell it sounds more like sales tax. Or in other words, even if you use a pretender it's not going to be a whole lot cheaper than that.
You can save more if you happen to have access to Dimensional Rod or Staff of Elemental Mastery. S3F1 + Starshine Skullcap/Crystal Coin/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry/Staff of Elemental Mastery = S7F3. -Max |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
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Note that F4 Chayot can cast Phoenix Pyre and then shapeshift back to S4 form. (Yes, they can cycle through all 4 forms in combat. If I can trust my memory.) Then you have to kill him... lots of times. -Max |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
Well you're right it isn't really impossible max, it's just harder than 'very hard'. At least it is for Gath (s3) and Ashdod (s2). For Hinnom it really is impossible because they don't get the spell.
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
I look very forward for playing with the next verson of the CBM mod. Meanwhile i use an older version of CBM but only spells and items seem to work trouble-free.
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Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
LA ARCOSCEPHALE
Conjuration Summon Sirrush - RL5, S1E1 - 1 / 10 vanilla, 1 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Already a strong sacred unit with the right bless (probably nature). They're size 6 but get 3 attacks at str 22, good attack skill, 80hp, great mr of 16, prot 15. I don't think they need to be made into a 'commander monster' but they could probably do with a little discount, because there are so many uses for astral gems that don't involve summoning cool dragon things. 1 / 8 would be better. LA ERMOR I defer to experts in this matter. I have roughly zero experience playing Ashen Empire. LA MAN Summon Black Dogs - D2, RL2 - 20 / 10 vanilla, 20 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. You have no recruitable death mages and are unlikely to have death gems, so this is unlikely to get cast. Shame because these little dogs are actually rather good. They have dark power, 100 DV and stealth 20 along with much better combat stats than animals like wolves. Seems like a pretty fair price to me. Summon Cu Sidhe - N2, RL3 - 7 / 10 vanilla, 7 / 9 CBM. Castability: Hard. No nature mage recruitables, but you do actually have a starting nature gem income. It's interesting to note there are two types of Cu Sidhe in the game, one green one (1770) and one black one (851). The green one is summoned by this spell and is actually quite a fighter, like an upgraded dire wolf with excellent mr. They're one of best animal summons, along with Barghests and Black Dogs. If the spell were 7 / 7 it would see use with a bless, without being overpowered. Summon Barghests - D2, RL4 - 9 / 13 vanilla, 9 / 11 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. You have no recruitable death mages and are unlikely to have death gems, so this is unlikely to get cast. Barghests are basically upgraded sacred black dogs. Because of this the value of the spell depends somewhat on your bless. With Dark Power 3 and Dark Vision 100 they're also badass in the dark. I think it's right to reduce the cost slightly, but I would suggest reducing the numbers to differentiate this from the Black Dogs summon. 5 / 6 would make them cheaper and less numerous. Summon Bean Sidhe - D1, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Although they're only D1 to cast, the fact is you just don't have death mages with this nation. If you do get one it has D1 with a 1/4 chance of D2, so they can at least summon more. As a mage summon you don't get a very useful battlemage, but offering the chance of D2 is actually useful and you can get W1 too which is a new path at least. As a unit it's a pretty good assassin and has a one shot never misses curse ranged attack which is cool, but it's too expensive and hard to cast. I really think it should be reduced to 1 / 20, maybe even lower. LA ULM Conjuration Sloth of Bears - N2, RL4 - 8 / 15 vanilla, 8 / 10 CBM. Castability: Average. 1/4 Fortune Tellers are S1N1 and then there are indies, so it isn't exactly hard to cast this, but isn't easy either. CBM made a good improvement in reducing the cost, but the real problem is the 'Great bear' unit #694 itself. It has att 9 def 7 which definitely needs to be improved, like 11-9 or so. It's also crazy that the bear has only a single claw attack when double attacks for animals are common and bears are well known for using claws and teeth like the big cats. So Great bear should have an additional bite attack to go with the claw. Without this change bears are offensively far too weak and it's really counterintuitive because they seem like they should be offensively powerful. Pack of Wolves - N2, RL4 - 20 / 25 vanilla, 20 / 15 CBM. Castability: Average. 1/4 Fortune Tellers are S1N1 and then there are indies, so it isn't exactly hard to cast this, but isn't easy either. Even at the CBM price it doesn't seem good for a national spell, especially with other summons (like summon animals and animal horde) being boosted. If it could go to 24 / 16 or 12 / 8 that would be more like it. If you compare dire wolves with something like Cu Sidhe which are far superior AND sacred you see why they have to be so cheap. Oh and they should really be size 3 based on the graphic, not size 2. Blood Sanguine Heritage - B3D3, RL0 - 1 / 44 vanilla, 1 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. You do have access to B1 and D1 through second tiers and fortune tellers, with very rare B2 or B1D1 mages. It's therefore basically a pretender spell and that's the reason for its unusual research level. As a B2D2 mage it can certainly help consolidate and make use of blood and death and its all purpose uses and tricks are well documented. It's a great unit really. I think the CBM price is perfect - it's a real feature of the nation provided you pick the right pretender. LA MARIGNON Conjuration Contact Harbinger - S4, RL6 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. You have a base S2 mage and with some effort S4 isn't too much of a stretch. As an A3H2 mage it improves your air magic and makes a good commander/battlemage. It can be thugged, but isn't up to the standard of the other angels, though it is sacred and has 50 shock/fire res along with awe+4 so it isn't out of the question as a cheaper thug. The Malakh of Gath is much better in that role though. It carries the Heavenly Horn ranged weapon which is very nice against undead and even undead thugs. Angelic Host - S5, RL7 - 1+6 / 50 vanilla, 1+6 / 50 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Remote Commander and Troop summon. You get 1 Archangel with 6 Angel troops. Starting from a S2 mage S5 is starting to be quite a stretch, but it's still doable and there's no secondary path to complicate things. The Archangel is F4H3 which gets you a little more fire, but isn't a big deal. He's on par with Fury or Fallen angels as an SC though better suited to chaffkilling with awe+5, sacred and shock/fire res 50. He carries a flambeau as a default weapon which is handy. He comes with 6 Angels of the Host which are mini versions of him with slightly less awe and a lot less hp, but the same resistances, sacred and flambeaus. Taken together you get an army killing task force which with a good bless is extremely powerful. Well worth the cost. Heavenly Wrath - S3F1, RL7 - 1 / 35 vanilla, 1 / 35 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. Starting with a F2S1 Goetic Master you can boost up to cast this or empower a boosted S2 Royal Navigator in fire. The Angel of Fury has no magical abilities and no leadership: he's built purely for SC duties. He's ok in this respect, slightly better than the Fallen Angel, but lacking the useful combat spells and unable to bless himself. He sports Blood Vengeance 2, Fear+0, sacred and shock and fire res 50. I think the Fallen and Arch angels are pretty much better value SCs which leaves this without a place, so I think it should be 1 / 30 to encourage use. You could also give him #onebattlespell bless. Heavenly Choir - S7F2, RL9 - 1+12 / 144 vanilla, 1+12 / 144 CBM. Castability: Impossible. A Commander and Troop summon. You get 1 Seraph, 3 Harbinger troops and 9 angels of the choir. On par with the Chayot and generally considered the most powerful SC monster in the game, the Seraph justifies this kind of price tag. She's a flying mapmove 7 F4A4S4H4 sacred, awe+6 fire/shock/poison immune great statted unit with fireshield 10 and the ability to cause eyeloss in anyone who attacks her. The Harbingers are useful due to their heavenly horns vs undead/demons and are worth GoRing if possible, but the 9 angels of the choir are pretty useless - small angels with awe+4 but no offensive ability whatsoever. As a mage summon the Seraph is just too expensive to be worth it and doesn't get you any new paths, only higher levels in them. Blood Bind Harlequin - B1, RL1 - 1 / 1 vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. The CBM version is a Commander summon. The move to commander is a smart one - it gives Marignon a budget flying demon leader to ferry devils and the like. He doesn't make any sort of thug, but for 2 blood you absolutely cannot complain. An all purpose servitor style commander at a good cost. Reascendance - B4S1, RL7 - 1 / 88 vanilla, 1 / 88 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. 1/4 Goetic masters will be B2S1 and thus this spell can be cast with a little effort to boost or empower blood. The Fallen Angel is F3D3B3 so as a mage summon is extremely useful, getting you into death. As a SC it's solid but not as amazing as some of the other angels out there, sporting only sacred, fire immunity and fear+3 as notable abilites. It's default weapon 'Dark Fire Sword' is very good though and it makes a great leader of flying demons. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
LA MICTLAN
Conjuration Summon Jaguar Toad - RL1, N1 - 1 / 1 vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These were given a slight stat boost in CBM and a good bost to their prec for the ranged weapon, but it isn't enough. They're still size 3 tramplers that are easy to kill and such crud stats that even a strong bless (which you will almost certainly have) doesn't help. They still deserve a boost to ap at least and I'd strongly suggest making them massable by costing them at 4 / 3. Summon Jaguars - N2, RL3 - 17 / 25 vanilla, 17 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Jaguars are basically identical to Tigers and Great Lions, but are sacred. I have already suggested making the Pride of Lions spell a national for Machaka, so there's no need to avoid replacing it here. I suggest 7 / 10 which is very similar to the 7 / 7 tigers summon for Tienchi, but allows extra cost as they are sacred. I think I would cast it at that price. Summon Jade Serpent - W2, RL4 - 1 / 5 vanilla, 1 / 4 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. This recently added summon is very cool. It's sacred, amphibious, has standard 10 and a really nice bite. I'd suggest size 5 instead of 6 (compare it with hydra) and perhaps a small boost to the subpar def of 9. Basically useful at CBM price already though. Summon Monster Toad - N2, RL5 - 1 / 2 vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These got some minor stat improvements in CBM, though I think they could go a little further, as with their little brothers the jaguar toads. Like the jaguar toads they don't really benefit too much from a bless. Cost is fine, would like to see stats boosted further. Contact Couatl - N1S1, RL6 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A S3N3H2 flying mage, it offers higher levels in paths you have already, however the higher level in astral is certainly welcome. I still feel the Couatl could do with a small price reduction, because the rest of EA and LA Mictlan's summons and units are so strong and it has to be competative. Maybe 1 / 35 or so. Summon Tlaloque - W4, RL7 - 1 / 60 vanilla, 1 / 60 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Unique Commander summon. There are 4 different Tlaloques, one for each direction. They all have W4B3H3 which doesn't really provide new paths for LA Mictlan, then each of them has 2 in F,D,A and N respectively. They also autocast rain at the start of a battle. Full slots and ok stats, but they're more thug mages than SCs. I don't think they're really worth their cost, though they can provide access to new paths, notably air and death for LA. I think uniques should get a discount just for being unique, though water gems are perhaps the 'cheapest' type. 1 / 50 would be more of a reward for going far down the conjuration route. Blood Bind Beast Bats - B1, RL2 - 3 / 8 vanilla, 3 / 8 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. I think these are fine, especially with the cost of the Jaguar Fiends being raised in CBM. Bind Jaguar Fiends - B1F1, RL4 - 3 / 13 vanilla, 3 / 18 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These have always been recognised as very powerful sacreds and for good reason. I think the CBM cost is fine. Contact Civateteo - B2D2, RL5 - 1 / 25 - RL5, B2D2 - Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. You don't have any recruiable death mages, let alone blood/death. However one of the Tlaloques can cast them and the Onaqui can too, plus you do get minor death from Tlahuelpuchis. They're B1D1H2 and are stealthy, but aren't assassins or spies or anything. They do make pretty good leaders of sacreds and undead, but that isn't a category where mictlan is lacking. Weirdly with their fear(1), undead benefits (enc+immunities), sacred, ethereality and full slots, they make ok potential thugs. Still, due to the difficulty of casting them they should be 1 / 18. Bind Tzitzimitl - B2S2, RL6 - 1 / 10 vanilla, 1 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. More sacred demon goodness and like the beast bats they get a look in because the Jaguar Fiends in CBM are priced up a bit. Their stellar bolt ranged attacks are interesting; str based AN damage but with mr negates. I think they should be group summons like the other mict ones and I suggest 3 / 28 for that reason. Contact Tlahuelpuchi - B2, RL6 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A bit like an upgraded mortal Civateteo that you can actually cast. D1N1B2 paths and they aren't sacred (very unusual for a mict summon), so they offer access into death in a minor way. They can fly, assassinate and in animal shape are very stealthy (+25). Not as thuggable as Civateteos at all, but easier to cast and with their own utility. I think the cost is ok. Contact Onaqui - B4, RL6 - 1 / 101 vanilla, 1 / 101 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. The Onaqui are D2N1B3H1 with a random in SDNB, so as a mage summon the main thing they offer is death. They have thuggable stats and built in shock res, flight, full slots and stealth, but their main function is arguably as flying leaders/mages as they don't match the unique blood summons as thugs. They domsummon beast bats at what looks to me as Domsummon2 rate, so if you have high dominion they can get a crazy number together very quickly. Considering this their price is fine. Rain of Jaguars - B6F2, RL8 - 14+ / 40 vanilla, 14+ / 40 CBM. Castability: Hard. Though this is within reach via a boosted up Sun Priest it isn't a trivial matter getting him from B2 to B6. The cost on this seems ok - it's very scary to have to deal with but it isn't spammed the way Jaguar Fiends is. |
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod and patch 1.17
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