Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

So basically, completely redesigning and implementing one of the most basic parts of the game?
This (well, all of your change, really) will not happen in a patch. Dom4 is not anywhere in sight (ie it isn't even planned to be released sometimes eventually in the uncertain future).
So why bother with it?
I can understand that it's fun to fantasize, but you have to realize and understand that this is just a fantasy.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

AFAIK golems vanish on turn 75, when all troops get autokilled. So nonmindless leaderless troops still might rout, it has to be checked.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I've been saying that it won't happen since the start. Check post #592492 : "It could require (a lot of) work from the devs". My next posts also say it :
(autoquote)
"That is ONE solution among many that make it work. It could require too much changes to game mechanics. I propose it anyway, who knows, maybe it'll be there for dominions 4."
"I hope that this time I won't get stupids answers like "you change the game" or "it's not going to be this way because it requires too much work", because it's off-topic."

I don't have the vanity to decide whether the adjustements would really require too much work, however. I've never seen or modified the dominions 3 code, after all.

If you say "it won't happen because the workload could be too much", I would just have said yes, and left the matter pass as I intended. If someone says "it doesn't work because the workload is too important", it's simply wrong. A solution can work even if it is not put in place, even if another one is better. For example, you can cross an ocean with a plane, a boat, a bridge, or a tunnel. The tunnel and bridge will probably never be put into place because it would take too much ressources, but the tunnel and bridge solution still works regarless.

I didn't answer again and again because I want this solution to be in the game. I answered because the arguments that were put to silence it were wrong.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

I'm not saying you said something that is incorrect, but are you sure that multiplayer-daydreaming about Dom4 is really on topic in a thread about VotD?

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Yes, it belongs here, since it does solve what others and I see as the "problem" in VotD as a side effect. The time limit problem.

I agree that it's not enough to monopolise the discussion for pages though. I didn't intend to have to explain how it worked for pages, but had to because someone didn't get the difference between "it won't happen" and "it doesn't work".

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Some people here are not natives (myself included). Using the right words for the right meaning avoids pointless misunderstandings, especially on a forum.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

point, game, set and match.

And that's just the point of the iceberg of the several and several bugs and complications you could get just becouse you try to introduce a *completelly unnecessary* mechanism to fix something that *is not what is broken*

Start to think about how many complications you could find: several nations fighting there, several ritual combat spells there, people entering an breaking sieges, etc.

What about this?
instead of a third army joining the battle (which would be "solved" by the army entering the battle from a side), TEN different armies join the fight. From 10 different nations (using flying, teleport, cloudtrapeze, and what not). How do you put them in combat? 3 x side?

Or what about this:

2 armies fighting a contested province, in a long, draw battle (2 strong SC very hard to kill). Suddenly, one of the players attepmt an assasination. That also becomes a locked battle. Other player (from a third nation if you want), cast vengance of the dead, which target the same SC. It also becomes a lock battle. So now we have a character that is fighting THREE DIFFERENT locked battles in the SAME PROVINCE, for SEVERAL MONTHS. And we have not even started to playtest it with the really complicated issues.

What about if 10 assasins try to assasinate the same SC, which happen to lock the first one battle. Do the assasins stay there sitting on a rock waiting their turn? do they gangbang the SC (assasins should fight alone) Do the SC enter 10 different locked battles?

Sorry to burst your bubble again but *it doesn't work*. Doesn't. In present tense. It *might* work in another game (be it dominions 4 or The sims 3). In this game, with this ruleset, it does not work.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

I, myself, didnt find it an insult. I understood it as it was, so no problem from me there.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Nah, he's right, technically. There are workarounds, or fiat solutions for all these issues. It could be made to work.

But it's a huge fundamental change to the way dominions combat works, that would introduce all sorts of unforeseeable weirdnesses and exploits, in addition to whatever you think of here. All for the sake of fixing a small isolated problem with much simpler solutions.

And it's not going to be implemented anyway.

So can we please stop talking about it.

You're arguing semantics now. Is it theoretically possible? Yes. It is at all practical? No.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Then I will disagree, will then state that perhaps this is better suited to a thread like "Dom4 wishlist" and conclude by leaving the issue before this thread becomes too much of a meta-thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Well, somewhere above, someone said that this issue about VotD was discovered and debated during dominions 2, so... putting a wish that could possibly be granted only for dominions 4 didn't seem strange to me.

Sorry all for monopolising the thread for so long about a side issue, now that I got answers from other people, I've nothing to add. Whoever reads will have enough information to make it's own decision.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

For the sake of suggesting a solution that could work now with less awkward re-coding, I'll throw this into the mix.

Have the dead that appear be units called Vengeful Spirits. Have 6 varieties, with sizez from 1 to 6. The different sizes would represent different numbers of kille (graphics for the larger units would need to show a sort of monster formed from congealed spirits). Say Size-1 = 1 kill, size-2 = 5, 3=10, 4=25, 5=50, 6=100. The larger spirits make up relatively small proportions of the whole force - i.e. for 500 kills you might get 1 of size 6, 3 size 5, 4 size 4, 5 size 3, 10 size 2 and the rest size 1.

Bigger spirits would have better stats, with the size 6 units being able to make an SC slightly nervous. Give them all Morale 30, which I think means they won't autorout before turn 50.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

It is much simpler to just ignore kills in a VoD battle, for the purposes of the SC kill count. Then you don't double up the souls. And it still makes sense.

Congealed spirits sounds like some kind of drink I'd rather avoid.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

That assumes that ignoring kills is a simple thing to do. I'm guessing that if it was a 5 minute quick fix to do that, someone would have done it.

Also, this works around the auto-kill on turn 75 'feature' of the spell.

If you want to look at congealed spirits irl, try pouring Baileys into Creme de Menthe.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

I didn't say it's a five minute fix. But it's an extremely easy fix, especially compared to what you are suggesting. The code already knows if a battle is an assassination, since that's what determines the result of fleeing (death versus escape).

I don't really care about the 75-turn death feature. I just don't like the souls doubling up. It doesn't make sense, and it conflicts with the spell description.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Err, from JO's post earlier, the death on escape happens because the assassination is a battle occurring on a province with no neighbours and not because assassinations run on a special instance of the battle code.

I dislike the 75-turn death feature because it's apparently the cause of many of the kills against even well built SC's. After a certain point it's impossible to kill that many soulless in the requisite time period and death is guaranteed even when it's otherwise unreasonable. The doubling up feature on VotD accelerates a process that can happen anyway.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Oops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif! I shouldn't have made that assumption. I still think it would be easier to simply use a flag indicating that the battle is an assassination. We need that anyway so assassination battles can ignore any scripted Retreats. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can see why you and other people dislike the 75-turn thing. I'm in the "death is part of the game" crowd on that issue though.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

I agree that death is part of the game. The death at turn 75 thing is, well, inelegant. And perhaps a bit too arbitrary. Past a certain kill count, it turns VotD into a Mind Hunt that specifically targets that SC you really want to kill instead of the chaff commanders surrounding him, and the casting mage can't even be caught and Feebleminded by other Astral mages. All for 3 gems.

Actually, you might not need the assassination flag to disable retreats. Just tell the AI 'if the province has no neighbours, don't retreat'.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

Actually the spell Vengeance of the Dead has never worked for me. It has always been resisted. SC's about all ways have hight MR because otherwise they are charmed,enslaved or paralyzed.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

No--this opens up the possibility of an infinite battle. What happens when you have two guys who can't hurt each other? I've seen it happen--two casters who never did anything to each other. One was summoning skeletons, the other was smiting them.

My take on it: So long as the number of real hp's (critters that entered the battlefield, not summons) on the battlefield goes down the battle continues. If nothing is happening then you retreat those who can retreat. You only kill if retreating doesn't resolve the situation.

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

That'd do it. You'll want to put a turn count on there before it starts checking for nondecreasing HP, though - you don't want your entire army routing on turn 2 because nobody happened to be in range to shoot at the other guy...

Re: vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+
 

I was thinking to start checking at maybe turn 50 and it should be a peak over 10 turns, not round by round. After all, you can have a case of hurt, healed, hurt, healed. So long as the peaks are declining the battle will eventually resolve.