Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Edi, I agree what you wrote in your last post. Do you have a handy list of major bugs, that cause the game to behave in ways unintended by the devs. Then in the games that I admin i can simply provide a link to it, and say not to take advantange of any of the bugs in the list. Every game admin should do the same, but of course it is up to them.

I want to play games of Dominions, which involves troops. summons, magic, and forging, to out strat your opponent. I do not want to play games of, "take advantage of the current implementation of the dominion program".

- If that move and patrol bug was allowed to be used, people could simple make certain that all their castles are three spaces apart.Then by using the right commander they can move all their troops that distance regardless of the units stats. This would make map move stats, and the various survival skills almost obsolete.
-If the item spamming was allowed, it would have the potential of destroying the item forging part of the game, which for me is the funnest part.
-If the Mists Of Deception was allowed to be used it would make most of the other spells obsolete, and make only a small set of tactics viable in the game.

Strategies like Arcane Nexus, and clamming are game unbalancing (to a lesser extent), but they are also clearly in the dominion rules. Those three items that I mentioned earlier are clearly against the dominion rules. I would like a handy list of these game breaking bugs, so that i can reference them in the games that I admin. Its up to other admins if they want to do the same thing or not, but it is my opinion that most admins should.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Foodstamp, for my part in this discussion, I see your point re: role-playing.

If you have played Neverwinter Nights or similar games, people sometimes use the term as the opposite of min/maxing when they make characters. So you have the people who come up with awesome min/maxed characters that might not make sense from a "role-playing point of view" like the Paladin / Sorceress. Less powerful characters like the traditional Halfling Thief or quirky ones like the Gnome Barbarian are considered "role-playing" characters. In that case, it doesn't even refer to how well you act out the part of your character but more about trying to make characters that you think are fun without regard to having a maxed out character.


Anyway, that was how I used the term in this thread (e.g. role playing as the opposite of min/max), but I agree its not accurate as the term should just refer to people who get into acting out the role of the faction they are playing. Role-playing is a separate issue and people can certainly role-play while they min/max with a MoD combo.

I am not sure what the best term is for non-min/maxing but I guess its like pornography - you just know it when you see it.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

DonCorazon,

No biggy. I see the term thrown around quite a bit to explain why people won't use certain features, bugs etc. That is why I pushed the conversation a bit. I think it is interesting that people identify the game style as roleplaying.

Personally I would term it "casual play". By casual play I mean the player plays the game his way. If things do not jive with his way of playing, he is not engaged enough with the game to play outside his playstyle, which means he will quit, or choose to play with people who are willing to play by his rules.

Basically a mindset where the player says "I know this can be countered, but through a lot of tedious work on my part, and I am not in this game for tedious work."

Oftentimes roleplayers fit into the "casual player" mode as well, and I think that is why sometimes people consider them synonymous.

For instance, in an MMORPG I play, when our group ran with 3 priests, we were near invincible. The average group consisted of 2 priests normally. We would get /tells telling us that we were lame because we had three priests in our group, and that it was boring fighting us because they could not do enough damage to get through all the heals. There was nothing in the game to stop us from having 3 priests in our group, but rather than countering an unorthodox group make up, they chose to quit, because the time/thinking investment was beyond what they were willing to commit to.

Fixing bugs is one thing. But in the past I have seen this go beyond fixing bugs. As people get more vocal, some of the more unique aspects of some of the games I have played have been brought in line with what is the norm for the rest of the game, to make the vocal players happy.

There was a pet class in DAOC called an "Animist". Originally the class could summon as many pets as it's mana bar allowed. I used to play one of these characters and I would die more often than I would kill. This class had stationary pets that could only damage an enemy if they were within a certain close range. Animists would hide their pets behind walls so when enemies came through openings, the pets would damage them. The damage was weak, and if the player ran back out the hole in the wall, they would live. But more often than not, the player would freak out and run around in circles and die. Seemed like good strategy to me. But to people who felt beguiled by such tactics, it was cheap and lame. Over the years they were able to persuade the developers to cap the number of pets the player could have, until finally that character went from having as many as he could muster, to 15, and now finally 5. The thing that made the class unique was taken away because people complained enough. Not people in the know, but people who had just started playing, or refused to change their charge forward playstyle.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

I apologize if i didnt make it clear, since english is not my first language (as you would had supposed from my grammar and spelling :p). But i agree that roleplaying, and playing to win (or playing with house rules), have nothing in common.

You can roleplay, and play to win. And it is also perfectly possible refusing any kind of roleplaying, and play horribly bad.

Maybe "min-maxers" is not a correct expression for what i was trying to explain. A min-maxer might be, for example, someone that makes a triple bless with mictlan and use the controlled dominion expansion to minimize the bad scales. That is min-maxing (minimizing the disventages, and maximizing the adventage), and i have exactly ZERO problems with that.

However, in my book, there is a big step between that, and sneaking out of a besieged castle with non-sneaking troops thanks to "the current implementation of the game". Let's call this second thing different, like "munchkin". It's using something that is not *suppossed* to be there, to gain an adventage. I think Mist of Deception is in the same book: It is not supposed to do what it does (like Battle enchantments do), so I wont use it becouse i consider it an abuse, and i would join games that forbid it.

With Vengeance of the Dead, my initial gripe was exactly the same: I thought it was not working as it was supposed to work, so i thought it was an abuse. However, the Devs have just said it DOES work exactly what it is supposed to do. So there is no bug, and therefore, there is no exploit. It might be an over the average spell. But so is Thunderstrike (in a different level). Using "good" spells, or spells that have a strong effect for it cost /research is not abusing. Its being clever. Everybody use the better spells in their arsenal, and i do not find that abusive at all. Also, i dont "cry noob" becouse my SC died. Several of them die, that's not the issue.

To put it in perspective from another game, there was, time ago, a stage in Counterstrike, Manor. In that stage, there was a special position, where there was a glitch in the program. There, you did not see any wall, just players. Using a very strong rifle (what would pierce the wall) you could kill anyone in the house. THAT is what i mean with "munchkin". Using camping, or other tactics, might be more or less "fun", but are legal. But there is a qualitative jump between placing yourself in a place with a good point of view to the house's windows, while in cover (that's tactic, and maybe min-maxing tactic depending where you place yourself), and using a *glitch* in the map to shoot through invisible walls.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

The second part of foodstamps post has special meaning for me...What i am seeing here is making me afraid of too much "nerfing" (an mmo term especially.)

I also played Dark Age of Camelot back in the day, and the reason I stopped playing the game is because people who did not want to think to counter good tactics would go on the forums, and whine until the developers changed the game to their liking. I really hope that does not happen here. After watching that happen in DAOC i totally understand Foodstamps reaction and I would say I have a similar one. People, please do not just whine about a tactic you dont like. Of course hacking the game files, or using glichy mapmovie isnt intended. But things like spells you personally dont like, that is just preference, it doesnt mean the game should change.

I would also like to say that I do not consider myself a great player at this game, I am mediocre at best. But i am one of the masochistic players who enjoys playing for the experience and losing and discovering new things. Hell I was playing on Sloth as LA C'tis and managed to lose to Tien Chi in less that 7 turns! That was a hell of an experience.

In conclusion, I want to say I love this game because of all the options, units, and counters. and I especially enjoy the forums because you all are for the most part interesting, mature, and intelligent people from all over the world. So let us please keep it civil on both sides (it seems to be getting back there.) And for the dev's please consider the whining just that, and fix the problems you feel are best.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Rebalancing and nerfing does NOT automatically equate to less variety or in any way ruin the gameplaying experience. Often the people saying they're worried about this happening are just trying to protect the way they play, doing exactly what they accuse others of by whining to try and get things their way.

Let's say random indy light infantry were an amazing unit. Basically better than any national recruitable, better than any other indy, widely available. So everyone's using them because they're great. All is fair. But effectively people who want to try and use varied strategies, make the most of different units and so on are being punished since it's always better to build these light infantry. So it is suggested they are overpowered and should be nerfed into line with the other units. I guarantee there would be a few people up in arms about how the game was in danger of being nerfed into oblivion and how X random online game was ruined by nerfs and people complaining and how nothing needed to be done because hey, everyone can build them, so they're fair.

I just don't get it. Is it that hard to understand that good balancing /increases/ variety? Ever heard of Rock Paper Scissors Mentok? It's like Rock Paper Scissors, but with the added variety of Mentok, which beats the other three and ties with itself. See where I'm going with this?

Honestly the only reason I can see for their behaviour is that they really like using the overpowered unit/tactic/spell/whatever being discussed, particularly if their opponent isn't using it and is trying to make use of the outclassed other options.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Oh trust me, as for me I am very conventional in this game. I have problems using traditional strategy and winning with it. But I find it part of the fun. Dont get me wrong, I really think several things here need to be fixed or not used, like MoD. I am just saying that I can understand why people are afraid of it getting out of control. But at the same time im sure some people defend MoD because they love to use it (or others.)

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Sombre,

Balance rarely leads to more variety when the items in question are unconventional to begin with. More often, it is easier to bring those elements inline with the rest of the game. In the end you end up with scissors, rocks and paper as you suggest, leaving out fire, dynamite, water balloon, the attacking jesus and a toothless grin. Ultimately, it becomes a choice of left handed or right handed scissors, blue construction paper or college rule, sandstone or granite. They are different, but they are still rocks, scissors and paper, so there is no depth beyond learning the initial strategy, and there is limited replay value.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

what about using glitchy spells? I mean, spells that the developers have said they do not work as intended?

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Foodstamp. Have you looked at the CB mod? What in that mod does that. In my opinion in brings in the fire, dynamate, water baloon, attacking Jesus, and the toothless grin, by doing things like boosting the unused summons, giving the unused pretenders cool powers,and making unused magical items more interesting.

What you are talking about is balanace being done badly. But if it is done well, it adds depth to the game, and not take it away.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

I'm sorry I don't buy that in the slightest. There's nothing particularly unconventional about dominions at its core and it isn't so varied or complex that you can't work towards balance. Balancing increases replay value not by making all elements the same, but by ensuring different elements can effectively be used and different paths explored. Certain elements need to be improved, certain others need to be weakened.

You talk about what is 'easier' as if that is what will be done. Yes, the easiest way to balance the game is to make all sides the same, all maps the same, all spells the same. But no-one is suggesting that and it isn't going to happen. The kind of balancing that we're realistically talking about is the fixing of the overpowered and, judging from what happened with LA Abysia, MA Mictlan, LA and MA Ulm etc, addition and boosting of national units and spells.

Beyond that the main balancing movement is CBM, which again aims to increase variety through balancing, toning down the overpowered and boosting the weak. Is that in your opinion heading towards a less varied game with restricted replay value?


I personally haven't been part of a game that's been 'ruined' by balancing. Even when people describe these 'horror story' examples of balancing from other games I rarely have much sympathy. I remember a friend telling me about some online WW2 shooter where far and away the best weapon was the shotgun, which everyone used. So people banned 'shotgun whoring' on certain servers and there was a backlash of people complaining that if everyone could pick the shotgun it was fair. Then the makers of the game toned down the shotgun so it wasn't obviously better than all the other guns. My friend quit in disgust. Why? I guess because he liked killing people with the shotgun who hadn't worked out it was the only weapon worth picking. I'm not saying MoD/SoW is the 'shotgun' here, just talking about balancing and fixing in general. To me a game where the elements are different but equally effective (if you use them correctly, in the correct context) is far more interesting than one where a handful of elements are simply more effective. Especially when those elements are flat out cheesy like MoD/SoW, or in some other game, spamming stuff on a spawn point or doorway. Clearly fun for some people, but not at all for me. Looks bad, plays bad, is bad.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

In response to triqui, I do think that spells do not work as intended should be fixed by the dev's. I did not say that i consider exploits of bugs as legit gaming. Fixing bugs isnt "nerfing."

And Sombre I do not disagree with you, I just do not think I was being clear myself, though you did a good job of it. I do think they should fix things, not so everything is 'the same' but so all countries have a chance. I mean if there is only one late game strat and only say Air countries can counter it, that basically destroys the game for everyone else who wants to play like a fire nation. What Im trying to say is the fact this game has many strategies and just as many counters to those strategies. I enjoy it. I wouldnt like to be beaten by an exploit, but if someone can beat me with a better strategy then mine then they are welcome too. And I am far from a "min/maxer" or "powergamer." I tend to pick nations in this game that are thematically fun to me, then try to make them work.

I have just seen whining do negative things too so I am careful. Since you are using metaphors then so shall I...
When I was playing DAOC, the instance that made me quit was that my favorite character was an Armsman, which is just basically a fighter with a Sword and shield. He was fun for me to play and I did it well (considering the class was considered weak.) But because other warrior types of other nations complained enough they made it so we could kill nothing, and became useless as a class. I am all for balance, I am just afraid of i when it goes too far. That is all.

Please fix the bugs or ban them, I never plan to use power gaming strats like this, I will just continue doing medium in my games and enjoying myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Fine, my question was "what to do with the glitchy spells until the devs fix them"?. Explicitly... what to do with the broken, bugged, and overpowered mist of deception, that the developers have said it does not work as it should work?

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

I guess I would say that those who do not think it should be used, join games where it is banned from use. And if you like them, make a game where it is ok to use them. Until its fixed.

I am joining a game currently where this combo cannot be used and I am ok with that. The game is more for thematic fun than "I wanna win!!"

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

I would not be worried about overnerfing. The only example of that in Dominions so far has been the Vampire Queen and the circumstances that led to that are very specific and unusual. Currently that particular overnerf has been sitting on the bug shortlist as a statfix issue for a while. The only thing that I immediately remember as being substantially nerfed over the course of Dom3 has been the Van cavalry and Helhirdings and most of that was done with modest price increases and by changing the Glamour/Mirror Image mechanics so that it became more vulnerable to arrows. Blade Wind is another thing that got toned down some but it's still plenty good enough to use and won't see anymore downsizing.

Johan and Kristoffer will fix the things they consider the most important and the rest will get fixed when it gets fixed. If it gets fixed at all, that is, because some of the more esoteric and minor stuff may well be more trouble to fix than it's worth considering they have a new project underway.

If anyone wants an idea about what the biggest stuff left is, the red items on the shortlist and some of the purple are the ones to look at.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

"Hexediting the .2h file to insert unreachable orders
Users may choose only one (132 total votes)
Yes, it's abuse. 116 87%

Mists of Deception + Battlefield Enchantments + Retreat
Users may choose only one (132 total votes)
Yes, it's abuse. 109 82%"

Why are the polls going over one hundred percent? Maybe there's more than one kind of cheating going on here...

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Your browser must be displaying the results in a weird manner. What I see makes
it rather clear that, out of 132 people who voted, 116 thought it was abuse.

(116 / 132 = 0.87, i.e 87 percents.)

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

It's how many people voted followed by the % that represents.

Err, what he said, nod.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

I think there is a 'spirit' to a game.

Take diving in football. I think it was only recently made illegal, but for a long time before that it was considered bad to do. Many bug exploits described here generally fall into this sort of category. Not strictly illegal or impossible via the game mechanics, but 'unsportsmanlike': disrespectful not just to the game but to fellow players.

To change my analogy slightly, we've got a system whereby the referees of the game are the fellow players. A system could work thus: If there's potential bug-exploiting, the player on the receiving end should say in the file, the players can vote democratically, and decide what happens. Clear the accused; give them a yellow card; or red card the offender and set them to AI or get a sub. If the offence is deemed sufficiently unbalancing, a turn rollback could occur.

If you want to use one of these strategies even when it is not stated beforehand they are unfair, you take your continued presence in the game into your own hands.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Agema makes a good point. There might be need of a spirit of sportmanship, well more then usual atleast, when playing Dominions 3. The point of most games is to have fun more then once after all.

Just take situation when a newbie goes up against a veteran. There are so many subtle mechanics in this game that the veteran could steamroll the newbie, regardless of any previous strategy game experience. While it would hardly be considered abusive to exploit someones lack of experience I still reckon that many would "pull their punches", and help out by pointing out mistakes common amongst new players.

Mists of Deception + Battlefield Enchantments + Retreat is a different breed of beast but still... It's not exactly abusive, just mindnumbingly annoying, since it's a tactic available for both sides. For me it has been fairly easy to control. I just asked my fellow players not to use that particular strategy, and promised to do the same.

Granted, it's way easier to create "houserules" with ones friends then with complete strangers but the community for dominions is small enough for it to hurt if your playstyle gets you shunned.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

That's an opinion. For me, anything that has for only "counter" to use more of the same strategy (basically this combo falls into this) is to be removed. The very fact that everyone can use it is irrelevant. I'm not striking for balance but for fun. Having 10 strategy is good, but one is just better than others (for whatever reasons) it's to be balanced, and even more so if anyone can use it, especially on a game like dominions that prides itself on having diversity for magic spells and units.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Well you make a valid point, of course, and I agree that it's really wierd that combat doesn't end when one side retreats (or perhaps one turn afterwards). After all why would my army hang around a deserted battlefield chokefull of lethal magics? Have the devs responded on this topic yet? I've been on extended hiatus and am still cathing up on the last few years of posts.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Hum, well, I always wondered the opposite on other games. Some units that would have died the next "battle turn" just live if you manage to kill the last ennemy (the most infamous case is about poison).

Somehow medics with perfect skill and infinite speed manage to save them all in time. I wonder why they don't use those medics with infinite speed and skill in battle, so the battle would be over before it started !

So, the battle not finishing until all magic stopped and units died make sense to me. But why they are still standing in poisonous clouds ? That also makes me wonder, they could at least move out of the way...

About dev answers : as far as I know : "you players should decide for each game whether it's right or not to use such a combo".

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Didn't notice the boldened part, so Dominions mechanics obviously don't apply. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

*Post deleted by Max*

Sorry for the inadvertent bump. I posted before finishing the thread, and someone addressed my question already ("what's the problem with slave collars? why not just send them back to him?"--apparently the problem is that messages are received before forging occurs).

-Max

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

The thing I don't understand why everyone thinks that any of the above stated tactics are "Mentok." They aren't. Every one has a counter (usually several).

Sure, maybe you don't have that counter or aren't good enough at the game to keep it prepared, but isn't that the very essence of this game?

At it's essence, this game is about using tactics your opponent cannot or won't counter. Mere superiority in army size, income, or provinces can't win you this game unless you opponent is a noob.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

It's partly an Outside Context Problem. MoD, for example, has no counter that an attacker can employ within the context of a particular battle. That makes people tetchy if they want a game of tactical maneuvering instead of strategic second-guessing--the counter requires shifting contexts. It's Mentok for the specific battle in question.

-Max

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

what is this mentok of which you speak?

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Earlier in the thread, a mention was made of Rock-Scissors-Paper-Mentok, which is just like Rock-Scissors-Paper except that Mentok beats anything and ties itself. The implication was that superdominant strategies reduce the complexity (and the fun) of a game. Tic-tac-toe is fun until you figure out how to always win-or-tie.

-Max

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Sure there is. If they have magic rating required to cast MoD on round one, then you need to kill them on round one before they can retreat on round two. There are any number of spells that can do the job. It's not even a strategic "mentok" since overwhelming magical offense on round one is one of the best battlefield strategies.

You can also just send in a weak force that won't set off the AI's "cast my scripted gem spell" detector and then just let them retreat on round 2; if you've taken the adjacent provinces, then they lose a powerful mage.

Heck, even the worse case scenario of "dozens of mages in a castle" can be defeated by sending in one powerful SC and one mage who casts a damaging battlefield spell and then Retreats. By round 75 all those mages are dead or Retreated.

Strategic second guessing of other people's battlefield and other magics IS this game. Moving army men on the map is a small part of this game, and if that's what you want then I suggest playing a less complicated game like Risk.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

K,

Several good points there. Acknowledged, MoD isn't a Mentok.

-Max

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

Fresh goes better, Mentok freshness, fresh goes better with Mentok fresh and full of life!...sorry, I had a moment.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

just don't put mentok in diet coke.

Re: Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)
 

All around the mulberry bush, the badger ate some Mentok, he washed it down with diet coke...*POP* goes the badger!

Don't encourage me!