Re: A quibble about names
 

i prefer ashgod myself! heh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Just do not declare war on me over my slang, or i will have to correct it. pretenders=god dod too similar to dog

We Cajuns short'n and butch'a evera name until it suits our uncultured tongues.

Re: A quibble about names
 

Ashdog http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A quibble about names
 

Fixed in first post, well spotted.

Re: A quibble about names
 

With respect to good starting spots, if you want 61 good starting spots, 900 provinces is just too small for a random map. I do not know who ever came up with the 15 province rule of thumb, but it makes for a crowded map.

if i had a do ever, i would have made it a 1200 province map, rectangular, and no wrap. That would make for 61 good starting spots.

Re: A quibble about names
 

I would also want to know why 99% of experienced MP community always goes for 15 provs per player maps. And big part of them thinks 12 per player is even better.

Re: A quibble about names
 

It just became the accepted norm, I think 15 was/is a good balance for bless nations vs magic nations.

I really hate smaller maps with 10 provs or less per player, its a real struggle!

Bigger than 15 just slows the action (blood and mayhem) down and drags out the endgame.

Re: A quibble about names
 

Zeldor:
Because we fear boredom more than a lack of fairness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Bigger maps lead to larger empires and more micromanagement; and the game has a large enough random element that some players will still get screwed.

Dominions 3 has a sizeable element of chance. As long as none of the start locations are so dreadful that you're sunk on that basis alone - and I think Xietor managed that - it's okay, I think.

Re: A quibble about names
 

I'm not sure 99% of MP players do/think that (not me at least, I think I've played more games with 20+ ppp than games with 15).

Having 15 or 20 is not important anyway, as long the map is designed with well spaced and good start positions (if I rarely play 15ppp games it's mostly because they often use random maps and starts).

25+ make the game different, especially if indie strength is high as players still have room of expansion against neutrals in midgame. It's an interesting setting only if victory conditions force them to be agressive (and end the game before boredom).

NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

OK, so my earlier attempt to make a Kingmaker pretender poll failed because I can't read a calendar.

I've gone through the effort of creating a new-and-improved poll here: Post#614101

The purpose is to see which pretenders are popular given the unique setting of this game - 60 nations, all eras.

I'd like to emphasize that the results are COMPLETELY ANONYMOUS. But if you're still uncomfortable submitting your pretender selection, there are ambiguous choices available (e.g. 'I chose a Titan pretender...')

Please fill it in! It should be interesting to see what the discerning Dom3 players are choosing these days.

Cheers,
cleveland

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

It would be nice to send in-game message to all players about that polls.

Re: A quibble about names
 

Well I must say, Gath's situation doesn't seem as dire as I was led to believe, though for the record, I didn't tell Chris that I wanted Gath, I told him that I wanted more info, as I didn't want to saddle myself with a terrible build, if the bad start was actually more user error than anything else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

But now, there is a new Gath in town. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: A quibble about names
 

Good stuff, thanks for stepping in Jim.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Great idea. Will do.

----

Welcome to the game, Jim.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

I have no problem at all telling people when i have a sc pretender. It is only when i have "Bones" that you know i have my Master Lich. But if I have Bones, you can rest assured it is because I am playing a race that I feel can defend a rush without a pretender.

Since we have new races I am not familiar with, and ages I am not completely familiar with, I went with a Lich, instead of the rainbow ML. LA Arcos has some pretty serious elephants, and early communions to discourage rushes, So all things being equal the ML gives better scales for them.

But I am not trusting Niefel, or any of the new Giant races to be scared of my armored elephants, so I played it safe and went with a Lich. So now you know, but I will fill out the poll anyway.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Poor Kailasa.

If i knew that my lab would burn down on turn 3, i would have taken missfortune http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

well, there will be no restarts for players who foolishly took misfortune.

In the Big Game last year the player for LA Agartha, who shall remain nameless, took 3 misf and had knights attack his capital on turn 3 or so. And it was a bit humorous on turn 20 or so after my 1st war was over and I expanded south to come across a capital just sitting there, with one or 2 provinces near it, and a group of knights residing on top of said player's capital.

"How unfortunate!" thought I.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think the small nations of the world should post "giant" sightings" as they observe them.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Heh. I think Hadrian is saying he *didn't* take Misfortune.

And still had his lab burn down around him. ; )

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Thanks Xie.

Thanks for the work llama, Dr. P.

Re: A quibble about names
 

personally I like a bit more room, for a bit longer "very early" game. I like the "very early" game and it usually ends to quicly.. a but more room makes rushes a bit more difficult.

Re: A quibble about names
 

Indeed, some people really live for the exploration phase, enjoying discovering what's going on, and the first contact with "neighbors".

I definitely love that too, but I also love the war, as most seem to (why we're here, ne?), but I would say that after some odd million SP starts, I've more and more thought that closer to 20/nation gives the best feel to the game. 15 is fine as well, but it very much pushes people towards conflict before what I consider to be the "mid game" is reached. And early game wars annoy me to no end. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

All things considered, I wouldn't really fight for the map to be even larger than 900 provinces though. Of course, there IS the Oeridia map..... o:)

Re: A quibble about names
 

The little giants of Utgard have spotted a big squirmy worm frolicking on the shores. Is he a friendly fellow or will he supply Utgard’s sushi restaurants with Unagi for a year?
Stay tuned.

Re: A quibble about names
 

the hall of fame reflects someone sc pretender has already bitten the dust(:

Re: A quibble about names
 

Oh, if only the Wyrms had spent some of their millenium long lives learning how to trample. Sadly, they are trampleless, and so must instead learn to sign NAPs. Which is fairly difficult to do when you don't have hands, feet, or any other grasping appendages.

Re: A quibble about names
 

Poor Kraken...

Re: A quibble about names
 

Poor Squiggles.

Without a scout report from turn 2, I only had turn 3 to go on, took the risk, and was unlucky that it turned out to be about as much an underestimate as is possible. Well, I guess I'll plod on to the inevitable and keep my hopes for the next game.

Oh no!
 

In addition to all of these poor people losing their armies/pretenders/both my monitor nearly stopped working on me, which is worse, I think. I only got it to work again by turning it around, pulling and pushing on the plugs again, and turning it back. As the pulling and pushing didn't achieve anything, it seems I got my computer to work again by turning it around and back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Thus, MA Ulm charges on!

Re: Oh no!
 

I do not think losing your pretender means you lose the game.
It does not help obviously. But the water races are a bit isolated from the rest of the world, so you have that in your favor.

And most of the water races are not played by super aggressive players. most in fact would likely sign treaties.
Baalz is pretty much the only really veteran player in the water, and even he may be reasonable since he may be looking to get just a fair share of water provinces, then move onto land.

Re: Oh no!
 

It's a serious blow as points on a SC pretender are points spent on a good start instead of mid-late game power. Granted, it's far from all over.

And knowing Baalz is in the sea makes me fairly uncomfortable, recalling the last time I faced Baalz in MP... :p

Re: Oh no!
 

Don't worry. We don't feel safe on land either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Very, very interesting poll results so far.

With 40(!) respondents, the 1st and 2nd most popular choices were the Oracle (5/40) and Monolith (4/40). I find this quite surprising, as I figured only a very small number of nations wouldn't take an SC.

Titans are leading the way (17/40), but surprisingly, nobody has yet admitted to taking a Dragon. Very unexpected.

The results are visible, even if you haven't voted, here: Post#614101 But if you haven't voted, it's safe to say that you hate democracy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Vote!

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

I think the more interesting results is no one takes dragons.
Perhaps it is time to give them recuperation and maybe raise their dominion to 2. Everyone favors the wyrm over the dragon, and when that happens, maybe the dragon needs twinked.

One reason i have never taken a dragon is the low slots, low dominion, and high cost for a 2nd magical path.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

cleveland:

There are surely more PoDs than in that poll.

Oracle and Monolith are so popular because S9 bless is probably best for so long game. And S9 pretender in late game is really great. Wishes! Master Enslave!

Next Kingmaker should be with CBM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Maybe QM will have to host next year's mega game and use his famous MOD!. In fact, there are many things i like about the CBM, and one of them is making less used pretenders cheaper.

In fact, given how easy it would be to patch the costs of the pretenders, and KO's hate of cookie cutter ways to play nations, maybe we can actually see a merger of some of the Pretender CBM ideas with the Vanilla game.

Perhaps if the immobile pretenders could not teleport, like the sphinx, limiting their use offensively(master enslave),
we would see less of them.

You just NEVER see some pretenders. Not all magic paths are equal, and some titans have no resists, which in my book puts them behind pretenders with resists.

Father of Winter is a good Titan type pretender because he is cheap 75, has good dominion 3, has the best resist(100 cold), forest and mountain survival, 2 water and maybe the best chill aura. Contrast him to say the Lord of War.

Both of these pretender are available to MA Ulm. Lord of War costs 50, but for 25 less points, you also get a guy with only 2 dominion, 1e(a path you do not need), no resists, no terrain bonus like the Father of Winters,
no aura, and to top it off, he only has 75 hps compared to father of Winters 88! He has 2 less str, but has 2 more att, def, and prec.

So who in their right mind takes the Lord of War for 50 when you can get a Father of Winters for 25 points more? If the Lord of War in fact lived up to his name, maybe 100 hps,
Nice Magical 1h Weapon/shield, give the guy some type resist, maybe thematic with a magical shield or boots, then he would be worth buying as a sc pretender ready to take provinces on turn 1.

Now Ulm could forge the stuff for the Lord of War anyway, but if they are going to go to the trouble of forging a sword of sharpness and a shield on turns 2 and 3, they may as well get the Father of Winters, who is superior.


So maybe part of the solution is not just a cost adjustment but tinkering a bit with some of the pretenders to add a resist or magic item etc to those that are overpriced and never used.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Xietor:

So why didn't we use CBM Pretenders for that game? Not complete CBM, just that part?

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

I think because you always get less players for anything CBM-related, and obviously we wanted _lots_ of players.

I may try to start some CBM games soon. QM has put a lot of work into it, and I think it deserves some more MP action.

The trouble is there are always some bits people don't like. For instance, I really dislike the fact that magic-3 gives +3 to research. Just seems far too much. Personal taste I guess.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Agree with LLama. If I do in fact host next year's mega game, and nothing is done with Pretenders(in the vanilla game), I likely will put that up for a vote with a strong lean towards using it.

The problem of using the entire CBM mod is the learning curve. I invited new players to play in this game, and CBM is a lot to take in. That is the same reason I did not include any of the very good mod nations in the game either. Learning curve grows every time you add a mod to the game.

There is no real learning curve with Worthy Heroes as that basically means you get a tougher hero. Kingmaker Mod did throw a few curves in, like increasing the cost for gem producing items, but nothing compared to the scale of adding the entire CBM.

And while I agree with most of QM Pretender changes-some I do not. I think the Master Lich is fine as is, and many use him at his current cost. He is not an underused pretender, and I have in fact used him to to great success in 2 of my past 4 mp games on large maps.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Well personally I think the 1rp/M is a bit steep as well, but if you really think about the reasoning behind it, I think it makes sense as the best solution, really.

The thing with magic scale, is that like 90% of pretenders now are either M1 OR D2. Sometimes it's left even, but why leave it even when only 40 points gets you that extra rp? And likewise, if you are not in dire need of the extra rp, going drain2 gains you 80 points (120 net over the nations that have poor researchers and NEED the M). So in CBM, the paradigm is shifted, such that the choice is not so easily defined.

Ultimately though, I think a deeper change is needed in order to make the magic scale work out better. The problem is that the range of rp available on researchers, sort of works best when most people operate in a range of +/-1. It's rare to see M3 or D3, and with good reason. So in realistic terms, if CBM added 2 rp to most mages (or a bonus of 3 if they were 7/8+ already), and then recommended that for "normal" research speed you play on hard, and for "hard" research speed you play on very hard, I think you would strike the best balance for the scale.


As for pretenders, they're hard to tweak properly without testing afterwards, which isn't always going to tell the story. It does make sense not to buff a pretender that frequently gets used already though. And perhaps bumping the Lady of Rivers to 4W gems/turn was a bit much, especially considering the value of clamming. I tried her once, and I was swimming in water gems..... literally. :O

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

i feel sorry for anyone who took d2 this game. heh. good luck
outfitting your thugs with items-unless you can trade for everything which is possible in a game of this magnitude.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

I would have liked CBM. As a fairly new player I think it actually helps people like me. It makes other strategies/ spells/ pretenders reasonable alternatives. And as I don't yet know all the 'correct' / power gaming moves now it helps me that the others are less bad.

Although many of the experts seem to know CBM well I probably have more chance of surprising them with that mod than in Vanilla. Plus if I haven't picked the 'proper' paths CBM may well boost the sub optimal path I have picked giving me a better chance. Be that troop builds, spell choices, pretenders etc.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

How...terribly off topic. HOWEVER, while we are talking about this, I figure I will throw in my two cents. It is my opinion that you folks are talking about the magic/drain scales only from the perspective of the research bonus it provides. Now, don't get me wrong, research bonuses are nice. They give you the spells.

However, a component of the magic/drain scale which is at least as important is the fatigue bonus on spells cast. Even though going from magic 1 to magic 2 does not give you more research, it DOES allow your mages to sling around more spells. Meanwhile, the drain scale makes it harder to cast spells in your domain.

In other, game related news, my etheral virgins wound up attacking barbarians blind turn two, but they turned out all right. In case anyone was wondering http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Fear not, Dominions is nowhere near that constrained. There is plenty of room to think of original strategies. There certainly isn't "one true path" or anything. People think of original things all the time. Sometimes races are considered weak for a long time before someone comes up with a strategy that makes them suddenly seem strong. And every race has lots of possible options.

It's probably a good idea to read any strategy guides for your nation, but from there just enjoy being creative!

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Oh, incidentally, if anyone is wondering what MA Man is up to: they're not playing, they're just sitting on a hidden province racking up money to pay to the winner of the Arena Death Match.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Someone would do something bad to me if I teleported there and conquered it, right?

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

VERY bad Zeldor. VERY bad.

I will, however, send you 50 gold from the coffers of LA C'tis if you can tell me the province number where MA Man lives (first successful answer only!).

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

901?

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Is no one at war yet? where is the Kingmaker Newspaper reporters?

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Death two or drain two?

In the case of drain two, you forget that Ulm's smiths are immune to drain. Ulm has below-average magic resistance two, which makes the scale even better to take, though I could easily have been horribly wrong in taking Drain 3 and spending the extra points in growth, production, order, and such. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

In other news, I don't think I've seen any rushing nations yet. Phew. I was afraid the saga of Ulm might die early there, but I think I'm building up a force that's semi-capable of taking on rushes, now.

I wouldn't stop holding your collective breaths, though. The Bank of Ulm may never open internationally, still.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Zeldor - 901 is correct! Smart guy. 10 gold coming your way.

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

Actually i know ma ulm is immune to drain scale. but i meant nations that were not immune that took it regardless.

Ulm with their new heretic weapons can likely stop a bless rush, an elephant rush may be another matter. Where did you say you were located again?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: NEW Kingmaker Pretender Poll Available!
 

I'm fairly sure Ulm has a leg up against other human nations with defending against an elephant rush (elephant-less human nations, that is). They have high protection and defense, both of which, if the manual is correct, help in defense against elephant rushes. Plus, Black Knights are fast, cavalry (and thus larger than unmounted units), epitomize all the advantages of Ulm, and can do quite a bit of damage. Though I doubt they cost less resource-wise, elephants cost quite a bit more gold-wise. As a least resort, I'm not afraid to bribe one of my neighbors with gold in exhange for an attack. Elephants cost less than Illithids, yes? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif