Re: Season\'s Greeting and Ninja Robots
 

IIRC there is no 'Lovecraft property' as such. He didn't have a so-very-smart son, unlike JJRT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: Season\'s Greeting and Ninja Robots
 

Lovecraft also wrote (or at least published) earlier than JRRT. Some of his work is old enough to not fall under the various retroactive copyright extensions. It's not clear whether others are covered due to lack of renewal.

More importantly he encouraged other writers to refer to his mythos and there have been many Cthuloid stories written since his death. Many by hacks, but some quite good. Without that it's likely he would be all but forgotten.

Re: Season\'s Greeting and Ninja Robots
 

Interesting. Kind of the novelist's version of an open source approach, I guess.

Re: Season\'s Greeting and Ninja Robots
 

It was a different world back in the twenties. He sold to the pulp magazine market, got paid by the word and had little chance of getting royalties or anything like that.

A lot of it was just references to the same fictional occult tomes (like the Necronomicon). And that helped both parties by making them seem more real.

Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Othernesses are more like the Colour out of Space than shuggoths.

Shuggoths were basically as described-big blobs of extremely muscular bubbles-strong enough infact to be used consistently as living engines for millenia-so like a pet dog powerful enough to run an automotives factory for a million years by running on a treadmill. They also had the ability to mutate at will-growing eyes, hands, mouths, whatever, but were initially created with no free will-mindless, formless slaves. They only developed free will gradually through chaotic evolution.

So maybe they could be another kind of shapeshifter that eventually turns into a form that can go rogue like the Eater of the Dead.

Before my computer died I was working on a summons for my Fthaggua nation that was meant to invoke C'thulhu, and compete with Tartarians. They'd be size 6 giants with 3 lifedraining tentacle attacks, most slots, and an insanity gaze-a bit like the Void Lord, but with only 1 astral, so you'd have to empower them a lot, or they'd be very vulnerable.

The Wendigo would make a good endgame SC-in Inuit myth, the Wendigo is this gigantic bloody red skeleton that hunts the arctic and freezes people solid that it comes across, and is basically the essense of fear-so maybe a critter with natural soul-vortex, high chill aura, and high fear? It's always struck me as very Lovecraftian, so it would be perfect for late-age Atlanteans.


The Lesser Key of Solomon
(a really good article can be found on Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon

is filled with really bizarre demon princes and kings-nothing like the standard "Balrog" types.

I love the idea of the dragon egg above, hatching and then growing over time. The way I'd do it would be to make the egg itself a sort of "doomsday weapon. It would be very tough but immobile, with a good strong fear aura, so that it would be pretty invulnerable and would benefit a defending army built around it. The dragon, once hatched, would be a rogue-again like the second form of the Eater of the Dead-so that you wouldn't necessarily want that egg to get hatched. The dragon would quickly become very powerful, instill enormous unrest, and in general be the world's biggest headache for all concerned, just like dragons in real world myths are supposed to be-forcing your enemies to consider the consequences of *winning* a particular battle, sort of the Dominions version of the A-bomb.

I'd still like to see a Niefel Jarl on a wooley rhinocerous-that's gotta be pretty hardcore SC.

Speaking of Niefels-how about giving them Surtr as a unique summon? Make him the fire version of a Niefel Jarl and arm him with a Jotun-sized fire brand.

Later versions of Jotunheim could get the giant Bolverk-blind in both eyes, with a limp, and quite old, but very impressive Forging bonus and otherwise decent stats. Comes with a hammer that curses whatever it hits.

Hel would make a good unique summon for Helheim-giant sized immortal necromancer/valkyrie with natural Awe and Fear, half beautiful goddess, half undead hag.

The egyptians had this god of the underworld that was this gigantic snake which had growing out of it's shoulders (snakes have shoulders? *shrug*) two *other* mummified humanoid gods, from the torso up. Seems perfect for a C'tis unique summon.

Also, just because something isn't humanoid doesn't mean it can't have slots-animals in particular can wear barding, for instance. And monsters can be ridden as mounts, also. Look at Dune-if you can ride a 400 meter long sandworm, what *can't* you ride?

By the way, H.P. Lovecraft wasn't the only writer who came up with a unique environment of monsterous/godly creations. Jack Vance's Dying Earth, William Hope Hodgeson's Night Lands, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Warrior, Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar, even Clive Barker's Imajica and Terry Pratchet's Discworld are all excellent sources for artificial mythology. Lovecraft, himself, credited being influenced by Lord Dunsany, M.R. James, Arthur Machen, and Algernon Blackwood. And just about every author of the period: Lovecraft, Tolkien, Robert E Howard, etc. etc. etc. was influenced by H. Ryder Haggard.

And one that wasn't, particularly, Mervyn Peake, who it seems to me drew more on Lewis Carroll-another fine source of myth, is one of the best.

So there's a lot of stuff out there to draw from, that can get us past the idea of "more of the same, only bigger"

And with Construction, we have the ability to create summonable units that fight smarter, instead of just harder. Easily summonable engines of war, as well as field defender units, become possibilities. Imagine a unique massive, mindless, mechanical spider-mech, ala Wild Wild West, which produces-instead of being destroyed by-flying mechanical hornets that move extremely fast and deal out death poison that can drop an elephant? Or a unique Watcher-themed unit that is GoR? Or a unique Electric Monk (ala Douglas Adams' Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) that automatically casts Banishment, and doubles itself every combat round. Or submersibles that produce tough high seige bonus, high patrol bonus defenders, to take the place of PD when you're under water. Steamcannons could have unheard-of seige capabilities, move easily through any given terrain, and transform into artillery in combat, ala Starcraft. Maybe instead of larger mechanical men, they're size 1 instead, but have 4 attacks per round? Or a size 6 unit that does nothing but churn out a constant stream of longdead that have armour and weapons bolted directly to their bones? Or an "iron cobra" unit with high stealth and patrol bonus that can't fly but can reach any land province in a single turn, because of it's extremely high movement-rationaled in-game as "dimension-shifting".
No unstoppable juggernauts, no real SCs infact, but good solid units that fulfill a late-game need.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Some really really cool ideas there, definitely some creative interesting stuff in the last paragraph particularly.

I'd mention though that the reason I was espousing the "more of the same, only bigger" concept, as well as the "just let us summon pretenders" concept, was to avoid arguments about design issues. Graphics aren't a problem with those more basic approaches, and balancing isn't SO hard when you are working with a formula that already works, just increasing some variables to plug it into a later position in the game.

Personally I'm all for really wacky, fun, distinctive summons, I just want to see things make it to the game, and preferably in an official capacity, as well.


Which reminds me, is Sombre's new avatar a prototype for a chupacabre? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Sombre's new Avatar is a Warhammer Skink, I believe.

Very nice post HB. I just read the Wikipedia article about wendigos. Very creepy!

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

I really wish that the elemental kings/queens were better. I mean, they currently have like four paths in whatever their element is. There are recruitable mages that are better at casting elemental spells than the kings of those elements. It just doesn't sound right to me.

If it were me, I'd bump them up the conjuration tree and give them like seven or eight levels in their respective magics. Jack up their stats, and give them some cool #onebattlespell effects. Instead of the king of elemental fire being a sort of tough fire mage that nobody really gives a crap about, he could stroll into combat whipping out crazy high level fire magic without communions or boosters and auto-casting Heat From Hell via #onebattlespell to simulate the fact that the second he shows up everything for miles around starts lighting on fire.

I'm not really sure offhand how one could upgrade the others, particularly given that they should all have their own thing that sets them apart from one another. Offhand, one of the earth kings could #onebattlespell that earth magic that makes everyone take fatigue as they sink into the ground (I think it's earth grip, although thath might not be the whole battlefield version) and the Queen of Storms should probably autocast Storm.

The elemental royalty should be imposing as hell on their own, instead of just the one amphibious water queen and the earth kings being respectable SCs while the others make for desirable casters and not much else.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Agreed about the wimpiness (as mages) of the elemental kings compared to recruitables. I'd like to see them boosted up to Conj-9 and given more magic, as you describe.

Earth could do #onebattlespell "Curse of Stones" and the other could do "Iron Bane".

-Max

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

I agree that the Royals could use a bit of a boost to thier magic paths. However, giving them #onebattlespells like Menacer describes would be a really bad idea. Not because it isnt thematic - it definitely sounds cool! - but think about the logistics of trying to deploy the Fire and Earth Kings you describe. You'd need a fully fire immune army for the first one and a Relief caster for the second, just to counter bringing your elemental royalty to the field.

Also, you dont want to move them up higher in conj or you make Death even more appealing as a summoning path because it would then take longer for the elemental paths to pay off.

I'd say, leave them where they are. Bump them up in magic by +1. And maybe just review thier stats for any thematic bumps to give them.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Information for those tempted by modding a dragon's egg: #firstshape takes effect every round. So you can use a chain of #firstshapes to simulate the hatching of an egg over time.

It'll take up a lot of unit slots though. I'm not sure how much of a problem that might be.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Minor quibble: Curse of Stones does not affect friendlies so you don't need Relief. Iron Bane would be a huge pain though.

-Max

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

You could make modded versions of the spells that only affected enemies. However, at present you can't satisfactorily use #onebattlespell with modded spells.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Well, you can #copystats the original spell and modify the original version to affect only enemies, and then #onebattlespell the original. It's cumbersome to implement but perfectly satisfactory for the end-user.

-Max

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

I think his point had something to do with the bug where modded spells gain IDs in different order depending on the order that mods are loaded in. IIRC it's because the #onebattlespell won't use the name, only the ID of the spell.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

That's why you use #copystats. The modded version will have a known ID number (because it's the original spell), but the "original" (which is actually a new spell modded to be identical to the original) will have a number which depends upon the order in which you enable the mods. As long the original doesn't show up on the indy casting list and it's not cast by a magic item (like The Ankh/Life After Death), this solution will let you #onebattlespell modded spells with no one the wiser.

-Max

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Strange, that's very clever, and it works? I'm not equipped for such things, tending not to mod because I am scriptophobic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

How about a different take on royalty?

Anything the caster has beyond what's needed to summon them carries over into the summoned critter.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Another interesting summon: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/roblon.html

A mobile blood/death/nature treant perhaps?

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

I would think it an additional Treelord... but I don't know whether it's possible to ADD one to such a spell.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Unfortunately the existing tree lords are ... unappealing? Yeah, let's go with that. They're immobile, and they do not increase path diversity in any way. You already have to have an equal or higher level in nature magic to summon them and they don't even have a niche use in the game.

I think the fact that the roblon can move sets it apart, and if it granted an increase in path variety (nature into blood or death) it would fit the spirit of the thread, which is a greater diversity in endgame summons.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

One of existing Lords has Death iirc. Though I agree that they becoming immovable also made them quite unusable. Maybe the said roblon and/or something else added to the results list could make this spell somewhat useful...

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

The roblon sounds neat. Someone ought to do an Ivy Kings mod that has these types of treeish units in them. I'm a tree-hugger, so it would be great to have a nation for getting payback, that didn't involve anthropomorphized livestock http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You'd think the treelords would be Entish? I'm surprised...or atleast, if they're stationary, uber defenders that, say, produced earth, nature, and death gems (one for each lord). Or maybe produced dryads?
I'm really digging this "factory unit" thing-ever since Insectoids mod came out.
Maybe one that makes dryads, one that makes vinemen, and one that makes dragonflies that you get to keep. Just a thought.

Maybe they could be moved forward a bit, in the summoning requirements, for those nations with a strong link to nature?

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Nature/Death: Manikins or Mandragora
Nature/Earth: Kithaironic Lions, Hama Dryads?
Nature: Vinemen, Vine Ogres

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Yeah, Manikins would be ok, for the death tree, but I don't see lions growing on trees...Hama dryads would work for the Earth tree though-although for Norse humor, the tree could summon a great eagle once a year, and squirrels in combat, and then transform into a dragon that leaves after combat, when slain.

As much as I like the factory unit idea...I don't think they should make extremely powerful units, except occasionally, or in special cases.

One of the things I really like about Dominions is taking something that is, essentially, thematic, and forging it into a working strategy anyway.

I admit that function is important, but remember that this would be on top of what those units already can do in the game.

For the nature tree, I definitely see dragonflies, but maybe the treelord summons pixie (atomie, actually) knights mounted on dragonflies in combat? They'd survive 1 attack that way, and do magical damage until they lost their 1 hp knight. I was going to use them for a Faerie Court modnation, but they'd work here too.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Size 1 Pixie Knights, with a Lance bonus first strike, and 25 AP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Aren't the Kithaironic Lions spiritual manifestations of..... something? They're not actually just cats, so it could be justified. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And even with real animals, free spawn isn't necessary about creation of units, but can be attraction as well, like with Maenads. Unless those Pans are laying "naked lady" eggs, in which case I'll take a dozen, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Kithaironic refers to some mountain range in Greece, so Kithaironic Lion is a bit like "Greek mountain lion". It's based on the legend of the Nemedian Lion Herakles/Hercules slew, and its description just says that it's magical and has tough hide.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

I had an idea for a nation of plant monsters a while back that'd rely towards the endgame on immortal freespawn, justified because they'd be tiny little fungus monsters and mushrooms just being the fruiting bodies of the actual fungus (like flowers are to plants), they'd spread spores everywhere as they walked.

It'd be an interesting idea to run with I think, just legions of freespawn that can never actually be killed and because the ones that get killed pop back up alongside the ones that're being generated every turn they gradually build up to completely ridiculous levels.

At the very least it'd switch up the endgame summon being by necessity a single large combatant because while certainly an SC could smack an army of immortal chaff with an earthquake or something, it wouldn't really matter because even if its raids paid off and the opposing player managed to push deep into your dominion, eventually he'd run into a serious army of the little buggers and be completely overrun.

Naturally they'd have to be good enough in the first place to be capable of overrunning a properly outfitted SC in any number, but hey, that's why the things that spawn them would be late game summons.


[edit]
The more I think about this, the more I think it might be a pretty awesome idea. I'm thinking like a 4N1D (because fungi are agents of decay and all) or failing that, 6N summoned immobile commander that's just like a "Fungal Web" (which is what the actual body of any given fungus looks like, an underground web that soaks up nutrients). It can't do anything at all, but it freespawns little fungus monsters with like 8 health and otherwise average-to-slightly-below-average stats that also happen to be immortal. Possibly mindless to keep them from routing when they die in droves the way they're supposed to, but otherwise mundane. They'd have a claw attack or two, and maybe if you want to get fancy something really dramatic like the ability to shoot flesh eating spores all over stuff (simulated nicely by an entangle + poison effect). Plus, I think they'd be a pretty thematic endgame option for the nature path, given this idea of nature being slow, but ruthless and persistent, with anyone trying to root it out having to be really really thorough about it or it'll just pop right back up again.

Given mindlessness to withstand mass enslavement effects, and just barely enough health to take a rain of stones, I don't see why they wouldn't be perfectly viable late game options. Anyone with more experience than myself want to correct me?

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

Dunno about immortal..... It could work, but immortal free spawns might be a bit much. Now, if there were a summons that took E gems, that could Summon Allies for more mid tier units..... And those mid tier units gained free spawns..... Maybe make the larger units immortal, since they resprout from the mycellium after being damaged severely. The freespawns aren't part of the main fungal mat, so they die. But It's hard to kill off the larger myconids, so they continue gaining huge numbers of free spawns as you push them back.

And of course, there could be a few different flavors, with different roles in combat, so there would be quite some strategy in what you summoned, and how you used your national summons. But if you had some of your best summons doing Summon Allies constantly, you could have an army of mini thugs to face the incoming SCs, and they would be backed by a flowing mass of chaff that is essentially mindless, 50 Morale to really test the stamina of the enemy.

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

I see one potential problem, which is that hordes of freespawn in the endgame tend to slow down turn processing a lot. So say the LA Ermor and R'lyeh players anyway, I've no firsthand knowledge.

I don't have a huge problem with immortal freespawn. Immortality is nice thematically, but is 1.) vulnerable to dominion push, and 2.) requires mobility to really take advantage of. If you kill a freespawn 6 provinces away from the capital, it probably stays hors de combat for 6 turns or so (depending on terrain). It would be not at all impossible to fight them, so as long as it's thematic I think it's fine.

-Max

Re: Artificial Myth and the Endgame...
 

About fungi creatures I would add to some of them a 'Moss Body' as #onebattlespell. Though immortality would probably be too much - or at least should be restricted to just one of their kinds (I personally would prefer to make them regenerating). Another probability is Dominion summon, of course.

almost OT
 

By the way, mykorhyza (i.e., real body of fungi) is actually quite vulnerable and regrows only slowly. That's why when you gather eatible fungi you should cut them near surface, not pull them off. Just for those who didn't know previously... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
(So ingame something similar should probably look as something low-hp, high MR & mindless which just domsummons chaff (or not only chaff)).

Re: almost OT
 

One of the characteristics of my own campaign setting-which is decidedly weird-is that their are roughly 15000 separate, unique fungus/crystal (traits of both) constructs that each represent a separate letter (rune, if you will) of the "magical alphabet", and that these reproduce (the reproductions are not immortal/indestructable, although the original "parent" is) over time, causing fluctuations in the presence, influence, character, and usability of the magic. These are then tended over by the setting's equivalent to faeries.

So what I'm going with this is, maybe instead of (yet another) SC, perhaps instead your fungi might produce units over time that autocast each a different specific spell. It would add something different to the nation from any other, it's weird enough thematically for a fungus nation [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img] and if you set it up right, would make the nation powerful enough to compete with any of the others, due to their masses of free casters. Balance could be achieved by, firstly, making the more important "links" in the "chain" of producers very vulnerable to destruction, and by making the "chain" long enough that the really good spells-as well as any SCs and units that are very useful for other things than casting spells, don't show up until much later in the game.

Re: almost OT
 

Yes, I agree about this, though 15000 letters "alphabet" seems too much - Chinese has fewer! It would, of course, explain magic being rare... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif By the way, could I look it up somewhere? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Important links vulnerable to destruction seems quite right for me, but what I'm not sure about is a possibility of making a random/semirandom NEW units production under the existing engine. IIRC mod commands allow either 'summon allies' which produces 1 type of such, or domsummon which can produce a few types with probability depending on Dominion.. This can probably include various types, but not with equal probability of each, so a variety of high-end types isn't achievable. They would also become rather common in high Dominion - and if they are free, then their production becomes completely automatic after the start, without any meaningful choice on a part of player... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: almost OT
 

What you would have to do, is make certain powerful versions possible only under very high Dominion, 9-10 maybe.

When these appear, and there are several types, they can Call Allies, each with different resulting units produced. The "choice" to the player comes in the form of deciding which to send off to war today to defend and expand the nation, and which to keep at home, generating more troops.

Not a perfect fix by any means, but it allows you to tailor your army a little more the way you want it. Of course, any system that uses Call Allies is going to necessarily be somewhat less responsive than a training/purchase system. You're getting what you get every turn, and that's it. Though, you'd get the other freespawns as well.

The chance to get the good ones could only take place in castles, and probably castles with temples. So in the early game, it wouldn't be this overwhelming advantage, it would take some effort to get to a situation where you were really producing powerful troops on a meaningful scale.

Re: almost OT
 

Actually, quite a bit more than 15000-which isn't *that* much, when you consider they govern most of the aspects of Reality itself, in a localized fashion. It's not so much a language as the symbols for the source-code of the Universe.

And no, it's just a prop, nothing really to even look at.

I'd force the player to make meaningful choices in two ways: 1 by selection of Pretender-type. A different Pretender produces different generations down the line. If A: the Pretender can shapechange, then each change would produce a different line, while possibly-or not-allowing the Pretender to go back to original form. If B: no shapechange, or C: if shapechange in conjunction with entirely separate Pretenders, then a very important, informed or uninformed, decision can be made from the start of the game.

Secondly, by making some very expensive National summons, that each produce their own generations, you force the player to spend large amounts of resources to set up their game strategies-taking into account that what they spend now, they'll only see a return on, later in the game. That way, you open up various units to everyone playing the Nation, but force a choice of long term strategy.

Thirdly, as JimMorrison says-if you set it up in such a way that you're forced to choose between sending your producers off to fight, or leaving them at home to breed, that's another good choice, as is choosing between A: producing more weak units which themselves produce stronger units, or B: *just* producing strong units now-that are either sterile, or that produce weak units, which later on will give you diminished returns.

Re: almost OT
 

Well, as I've said, 'summon allies' doesn't allow for choices, and domsummon have only probabilities... Making 'factory units' normal summons - even with some of them from school(s) other than conjuration does, of course, allow for more choices... By the way, choice through shapechanging, while not entirely thematic, is a good possibility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: almost OT
 

I think my idea for a brigdeburner summmon (or something similar) ie a squad with several individual not overpowered or SC like units but which together make a decent summon would be a good solution --> like Bogus and his team really.. but maybe with a little more troops

I'm thinking you could also include a leader which generate the "chaff" (relatively speaking) so attrition isn't THAT much of a problem

Say

1 leader
2 mages
3 other characters with nice abilities, bows what not
and 15 strong infantry units and 15 good archers

And the leader creating one infantry/ turn and the mage one archer/turn

Maybe give one of the remaining 3 characters a nice bow and target leaders option?

Or a few mages (probably needed to make them viable unless you give the archers banefire bows (and why not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

and give the mages acces to spells or onebattle spells or regular spells modded to be easier to cast

Re: almost OT
 

Well my theory was that the nation could be balanced with the need for those factories to play a vital role in combat. Perhaps they are your only reliable leaders, or some such. The point being that in general terms, for every 3 of these that spawned, you would want 2 of them in combat. So by putting in varied types, you supply a player with choices as to which he keeps behind to bring in more troops, and which he sends forward to engage in the active fighting (if there is any).

To be more specific, the nation would ultimately rely in large part on Dom Summons. The bulk of those freespawns would of course be small chaff. However, at castles with temples, in high Dominion territories, there would be a chance for powerful caster/leader units to spawn. These units would all have a Call Allies command, and there would be perhaps 10 different ones, each who had a corresponding elite unit tied to them. Not long into the game, you would find combat would be unmanageable without the use of these leaders (at lower level, you would still get freespawn leaders, with 40 Leader, and no special abilities) to bring larger forces to bear, and to support with their magic. So you would have to make a choice, between more elite unit creation, or a more robust army on the front lines. Once you had made the choice of how many of your casters to commit to leading armies, then you would choose between the different units that those leaders could create, were they standing still. I'm not talking about just 1 that does infantry, and 1 that does missile troops, but imagine for example that there is a more typical type of missile troop available, using bows or xbows, but they might also have some little amphibian guys that throw Slime. The balance of those capabilities, or your choice of which to use - is yours.

Re: almost OT
 

Another nice idea to be stolen from Insectoids is the unit that shapechanges permanently from a mobile unit to an immobile unit. This reminds me a bit of slime molds and the way they ambulate. It would be interesting for a fungus nation to have relatively weak but fast units (Zerg, anyone?) that could attack a province en masse, take it over-suffering heavy losses-but then compensate for those great losses by the few survivors permanently transforming into heavy immobile PD supporters (growing into the ground like creep colonies-Zerg again).

Re: almost OT
 

How are you going to prevent them from attacking with hordes of cheap indies plus hordes of weak-but-fast units that turn into hordes of heavy PD support afterwards? I'm skeptical that this can be made to work within the context of Dominions.

-Max

Re: almost OT
 

Well you'd make it impossible to have other troops (other than some summons, mostly later game) with the gluttony/NNE combo. Seems like an effective way to make indies rather useless.

Re: almost OT
 

I think the trick here is that since our hypothetical hordes of freespawn are going to be late game units, getting a giant horde of indies to back them up would be a huge waste of time considering the high level battle magic that's going to be whipping around. The freespawn would remain effective in the late game because even though they would certainly die in droves, they're so replaceable that their controller isn't even really supposed to care. A horde of indies that you've spent turns and most importantly, gold on is much more of a big deal when some tartarian rolls into town and kills 80% of them with a single spell.

Re: almost OT
 

I would assume that a nation of fungi would have way too much trouble communicating with independent nations to want to bother with them-gluttony/NNE works here as MaxWilson states. But even if they did, those hordes of cheap, mobile units could still be balanced out the same way any other nation's units is balanced. They'd perhaps have no PD to speak of-which is, for some nations, quite important. They'd also turn into immobile units (as in no teleport), which is going to drain your army, and then those units-while they might be relatively good-are going to only be good for defending that specific province.

If that doesn't work for you, then just force them to change in combat to their immobile form, when the first form is killed, which then causes you to more or less randomly lose mobile units to PD while attacking.

Re: almost OT
 

Did you know that, genetically, fungi are closer to animals than plants? In fact, some fungi are closer genetically to humans than some animals.

Re: almost OT
 

And what did you mean by "genetically closer"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Considering limitations - I wouldn't say that fungi should have no PD - logically they should have relatively strong PD, possibly with Dominion bonus: they are grown in their populational centers, after all...

Re: almost OT
 

Unless you mean something odd by "genetically closer", no fungi are genetically closer to humans than some animals.

Plants did split off earlier, but all animals share a common ancestor more recently than they do with fungus.

Re: almost OT
 

That was pretty much my idea, in my hypothetical plant monster nation, the fungal chaff plus a strong PD were going to make the nation a defensive monster, but mobility issues and difficulty keeping immortal units alive outside of their dominion were going to make them significantly weaker on the offense unless there was heavy investment into pushing the dominion. I was going for the idea that these plants, being plants, grow slowly as a nation, but once they start moving it doesn't particularly matter how many times you chop away at them because they're going to grow back.

However, in the case of a hypothetical factory summon to buff up the nature path in the late game, they wouldn't necessarily be held back or helped out by weak or strong PD, particularly as I'm not seeing fungus as being anything other than a universal summon as opposed to a national summon.

Edit:
On that note, I wonder if factory summons would help out any other paths. Not that I want to see the endgame switched from "everyone has tartarians" to "everyone has freespawn", but I wonder if having an ever-growing horde of monsters would make sense for any path but nature.

Just a thought, although it doesn't specifically have to be fungus that're the end result of a factory summon, it'd be a neat way to shoehorn redcaps into the game. I had always sort of wondered why evil fairies that wander battlefields and dip their hats into the blood of the fallen weren't in Dominions 3, and having them show up as some kind of freaky mushroom monster that has a bright red "cap" would just be tops.

Re: almost OT
 

Hmmmm, this gives me an idea, for a thematic way to slow their progression, and perhaps facilitate this whole immortal troops thing -

Make them totally unable to make temples (give them 1 in their home to start). So first, they are pretty much locked in to starting with 10 Dom, if they want to survive. But second, if some of their commanders had auto-temple-checks like the pretender and prophet, they would have the ability to push Dominion in the direction that they wanted it to go. Also, you could give them summons of course that were immobile, and provided temple checks. (I know, I said earlier make the best freespawns out of a fort with temple, but could they just be flagged to need a lab?)

Re: almost OT
 

I am not sure they can be flagged in such ways at all (unless we replace some of existing freespawn nations with them). But the idea of no temple is cool.
Redcaps idea is also good (& faeries CAN be linked with fungi - what is faeries' circle, after all? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).