Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Namad is a liar and a thief! His people have violated their sacred oath to us. Stolen over 500 of our gold and 10 of our nature gems rightfully offered for a single province to smooth out a border dispute. Attacking us without provocation and warning!

We call upon all good and just people of the world to deny them trade and do them harm where-ever possible.

Jazzepi

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

my slow play is mostly due to internal turmoil at proper response to jazzepi's lies :-p

you made a NAP and then instantly broke it
then offered me a bribe for stealing two provinces in the new NAP

then didn't send the bribe in a timely fashion...

how could i possibly have a nap with you after that much lying? how can you possibly make me out to be the bad guy in this?


YOU'RE EVEN LYING IN YOUR POST ACCUSING ME OF LYING! you only sent me 200gold and 10nature... if I had received 400gold and 10nature gems on turn 12 we wouldn't be at war... i never even asked for 500gold... it's all stored in the replies in the pm system... how can your facts about the province borders and the bribe amounts be so wildly wrong so many times? when they are both so easy to check?

and the border dispute consisted of two provinces... just admit you bullied me and then lied because you thought lying would soothe tensions

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

anyone able to trade me 5air gems for this turn? i can offer water? amount negotiable

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

The devil king of the giants is only attempting to cover up for his betrayal. Attacking us unannounced after the agreement to a 3 turn NAP. And our poor, poor gems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif WHO WILL THINK OF THE GEMS?!

Jazzepi

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

I agreed to maintain the NAP3 that YOU BROKE without provaction, FIRST. IF AND ONLY IF I received 400gold and 10nature gems.


i received nothing then 10nature gems then 200gold...

just admit you are the one that lied and admit that you attempted to bully me... it's all pretty clear from the history of PM's, anyone who would believe you has taken leave of their senses


you've actually lied to me so many times i've often had to consult old turns and the history of our pm's just to make sure i hadn't gone insane... yet every time all i discovered is that you had lied about something


then again I am new to MP maybe everyone else would agree with you... we met... we began peace talks... you offered a border of I take 161 you take 148.. I counter offered I take 161 I take 148 (you take all the rest)

then two turns later you take 161, you say oops, you claim to never have noticed that you agreed to giving me 161 and 148 (yet it's all in the message of replies) then you accuse me of having too many provinces and claim that the new NAP is you take 161 (which you never once even asked for until you took it by crossing my border and yes this province was still independent at the time but so what? you agreed to a border)

now you are a more experienced player than me and you offered to bribe me to make amends for the one province you took (even though you actually were taking two provinces from the agreement you actually did agree to if you check the old pm's)

i pointed this out to you, and made a demand, you agreed to my demand... three turns later the bribe had not yet been completely paid and i took BACK 161 from you

I figured giving you a bit of your own medicine seemed reasonable... I planned to claim I didn't remember anything but the original NAP3 that you broke.. I figured maybe you'd let me take 161 and 148 back from you in exchange for a bribe (perhaps even the same bribe you gave me for them) yet you seem to have been instantly incited to war and slander... why slander i can't imagine

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Actually, this raises an interesting question; what are people's opinions on betrayals in games of Dominions? Examples might be breaking peace agreements or not sending one's part of a gem trading deal.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

honestly I have no problem with betrayal.... he betrayed me and lied and said he didn't... I barely even minded

if you break a NAP3 and then claim you forgot what the nap3 was... wouldn't you just consult the log of messages and refresh your memory and then retreat in order to establish the original NAP? the fact he demanded two new provinces ... that means he was bullying me... again this was fine with me...


but after basically betraying me twice all I wanted to do back to him was betray him a little... bully him back a tad.. restore the balance... what grounds does he have to slander me for breaking a NAP3? one that had been broken for a long time (by him)?

note: i edited a couple of the last messages of mine to fix typos and seem less angry, and I was attempting to avoid double posting by adding to the last post... but people kept interrupting my monologue with replies of their own so it might be a bit disjointed now...

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

One small piece of advice - conduct diplomacy using the private messaging system of the forums, it gives a much better and easier track than in-game, and also means you don't get a 2 turn lag between responses

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

I once had a player not send me 10 gems they owed me for several turns. we had a NAP during this time. I declared war on him, but still followed the NAP. Of course, now he isn't ever giving me my gems, because we're at war. Still, I insisted that he should send me the gems, since he had "forgotten" for several turns before war was declared.

I think people exploit the system sometimes, play dirty; a sort of dark diplomacy. There are rules in light diplomacy, and dark diplomacy exploits them. Dark diplomacy will also exploit the game-real life interaction; just another part of playing dirty. Some people cry foul, claim people are cheating, lying ect. Modern Game Theory says that the cheating and playing dirty simply become another aspect of the game; the game-real life interaction that is exploited is actually only another aspect of the game. What is game and what is life become blurred, there is no real boundary. Good stuff, that Modern Game Theory; has some interesting inferences, given the above points.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

one of the turns i held up in the hopes jazzepi would edit his turn and send me the bribe sooner and prevent this war... and then the other turn i held up was attempting to plan my response to his untrustworthiness...

i was going to try and post time indications of that from gmail and the pm system... but since we have like 40pm's all in one reply reply reply reply system... i can't seem to access my own "sent pm's" since replies don't appear to count as "sent pm's" and.... quoted old replies don't appear to have timestamps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

i don't think i can imagine any world in which I broke an NAP here...


he broke the NAP .. said oops sorry... i refuse to acknowledge that old NAP let's renegotiate it so that i get +2provinces and pay you a bribe.. (yet he claimed he was only gaining 1province) the bribe apparently was scheduled to finish arriving 4turns after it was brought up... (now the schedule for the bribe was delayed many times... it was never agreed upon to be delayed at all)

so he broke a NAP... i agreed to re-establish our nap IF he did something.... he didn't do it... we had no NAP for me to break.... he claims i broke a NAP that didn't exist because he had already broken it :-/


really breaking a nap early doesn't seem like cheating... it's just a betrayal... if someone does it maybe you slander them and hope to get allied support....

but lying over and over and over to make it seem like he never broke a NAP, never agreed to a NAP, never lied, never bullied me and then claiming I'm the bad guy and trying to slander me... that's not even a matter of dark diplomacy he just lies in every single sentence... he even lied about what the bribe was supposed to have been... and he never ONCE admitted he bullied me out of TWO provinces not one...

how could I possibly have a NAP at all with a person so untrustworthy to communicate with? let alone how could I have broken it

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

You can check save message option when sending a reply. Still, since it is just a game, you guys might want to relax a bit. Just my 2cents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

The good people of Tir will not have their name besmirched! All of the oath breaking giants will be put to the sword!

Tir is a land of good and justice. We even have growth domain. Not like the foul, cold blooded territory of namad's giants, overflowing with death and corruption.

Jazzepi

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Turn 15:

Oceania's attack on R'lyeh came to a sudden halt. Lots of triton knights must have fallen. Atlantis is watch from sideline and grabbing lots of land provinces.

The infamous Niefelheim giants are relentlessly advancing on TNO capital. But there are many tricks TNO can do.

Helheim's minor border skirmish went on with great middle kingdom. Now Helheim's sacred troops are having an edge. But what will TC's famous expeditionary force do?

Mictlan's sacred warriors occupied great patch of Fomoria land, but Fomoria giants are mobilizing to face them.

How long will the remaining four nations be at peace? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

On the footnote is my incredible luck(TM) struck again. I should have known a very ill omen is something to fear, but still nothing prepared me for the loss of half of the population. We shall remember them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

TC's famous expeditionary force is death

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Dwarven Forging Group, Hinnom Branch (hereafter known as DFGHB) are glad to announce our grand opening.

Our first offer is the fabled Dwarven Hammer(R).

While you can get imitations from our competitors, ours has the following advantages:

1. It is made by a genuine dwarven smith, so the quality can be assured.

2. It incorporates advance science developed by Grigori. Our dwarven smith manufatures using computer assisted manufacturing(CAM) techniques and composite material. So while it offers the same great gem saving bonus, it is also of lighter weight and greater precision.

3. Our price is competitive. We accept 12E or N + 6 gems of your choice. So everyone can afford.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Unfortunately, the Glorious Northern Conquest Brigade, which consisted primarily of the remnants of T'ien Ch'i's starting army, has been dispersed by the invading rabble. This was truly an insulting end to such fine servants of the Divine Emperor. However, the newly raised Stupendous Army of Heavenly Vengeance has set out for the lands of the most ignoble Helheim, sped on by the cheers of the relieved peasantry, and is followed closely by the Invincible Southern Expeditionary Force, still marching from the far-flung edge of the near-infinite Empire of T'ien Ch'i. Marc, Prince of Dogs and Devourer of Children, you are not long for this world!

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

What a deal! The Hinnom Shopping Network is pretty amazing. Too bad my nation's economy is based primarily on showers of water crystals falling out of the sky. Do you take blood slaves, by any chance?

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

hmmm.

we have someone getting a mite close to a stale, and I'm going to bed right now; so can't check up later to see if they get any closer.

since hosting schedule changed only recently, some players who don't check the forums may not be aware of it, and may have planned some real life activities around a 36 hour cycle.

to be completely fair and safe, i'm going to delay hosting by 12 hours (emulating a 36 hour cycle); but only this once. typically, no notification= stale.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Due to apperant lack of interest, we DFGHM are doing a one time blow out sale of dwarven hammer at 15N. PM me if interested.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

anyone want to trade me astral gems for water gems?

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

I am going to be out of town for about 24 hours this weekend (JUST enough to get a stale). I hope you don't mind giving me a 36 hour extension. I will, of course, return and send my turn ASAP when I am back.

If that's not okay, I'll take the stale. Thanks :_)

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

of course no prob.

seems many are out of town this weekend

you, konming, and me are all travelling. I will just set to 60 hour cycle until we are all on stable keel. if we don't need that much time, then ok. but just to be safe.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

well the idea was to allow a sixty hour cycle for those few of us who were traveling over the weekend to have breathing room...

yet somehow, these people seemed to get their turns in quite pronto, and we ended up waiting 36+ hours on... guess who.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

He's just roleplaying his race..., slow, ponderous, ice giants, obviously slower than Hinnom or Formorian giants who live in a warmer climate. A bit glacial... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Someone cast quickness on them!

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

you know last night when i checked i wasn't the only one who hadn't submitted :-/ replace me if you want(this remark is serious) but yesterday two of my neighbors hadn't submitted there turns and I figured there was a chance they were planning to contact me before they did for some reason so i was holding back turning it in...

i guess i'm not supposed to do that but this is my first mp game... i'm not having any problems in my other games they all have regular schedules.. I could easily have handled getting a turn in every 12 to 18hours but when it's been like 30hours and three people haven't handed in their turns i guess i get confused

and actually last night the last time i checked i believe it was megablob who hadn't yet submitted.... maybe I figured he was planning to PM me since we're neighbors and have PM'd eachother many times before.... and earlier yesterday TNO hadn't submitted their turn either and that made me worry... I figured for some dumb reason submitting my turn earlier than the guy I'm at war with was a bad idea... i guess that wasn't logical


I really don't see the point here I never asked you to change the schedule once, and I never once staled... we wouldn't gotten in a lot of turns this weekend anyways because of various complications so what exactly did I do?

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

All of my provinces are deserts, with this map I can't grown, it's impossible.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Its ok namad, chill, as a rule of thumb, its always a good idea to do your turns ASAP.

I was just being lazy btw and I don't care what anyone says! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

My above post was just a joke!

Really, as long as you don't stale no one can complain. You seem to be doing well for your 1st MP game btw.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

i hear you majuva68. I looked over this map and its gig is to give each starting postion some unusual advantage and an unusual penalty. so, tir na og is surrounded by provs with high pops, but low resource and is in middel of map. corner positions typcially have little other advantage. your position has very little income, but lots of gem producing sites around it (notably, that desert of thatoneguy that gives 2fire 2earth 2death). so each site has some notable advantages and disadvantages.

problem is, each nation has certain needs and can really benefit from one site, or really be hurt by another. when you make each site so different, even if ultimately balanced, there is a huge factor of luck now addded, which the special start positions was actually designed to reduce.

i'm gonna contact the maker of this map after our game and let him know our experience and give feedback, hopefully he can change it, or maybe make a more MP friendly version.

but yes, I totally understand your problem. One thing I found to help alliviate the issue was to be intimately aware of each starts qualities, make an SP game with all human players and indies on zero. then you can spread out and see what is where, that way you know how you should spread out. for example, with your start you have the advantage of lots of gem sites around you, but low income. however, if you knew exactly where the closest high income sites were, you could have spread that direction at the beginning to boost your income, and go back to collecting provinces around you later. really, there are some pretty close high pop provinces close to you. had you know exactly where they were, you could rush for them, and then consolidate your empire later. in fact, you are really close to lots of chokepoints, and could have rushed for a few income provinces while blocking access to the ones close to you, and go back later and get them.

just a thought.


say, how the hell is Hinnom still expanding? they must be surrounded by all those people that didn't expand much at all. what a strike.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

DFGHB now adds several more items to its offer list:

Earth Boot/Thistle Mace/Frost Brand/Fire Brand

Our prices are always great so inquries are welcome.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Namad, you can submit your turn early on and then, if someone contacts you later, go back and change it. If you redo your turn and send in the new version, the server will take it. Also, if you're the last one to send in your turn, if you wait five minutes you'll get the new turn data and can do your next turn right away.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Giving all the diplomacy, it is understandable people need to hold their turns and submit when diplomatic situations are clear. You wouldn't want to mass troops to someone's border who just agreed to your NAP.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Hinnom wants to reaffirm its desire to trade for nature gems. We supply any other gems you want or forge at base cost in return.

Hinnom is also looking for a skull staff, we pay well and you can enjoy our special "friend discount" on forging.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

after having noticed many of his (or her?) astute, well informed, and consequently very informative posts around the forum, I have to say that konming is cleary sandbagging, having picked hinnom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Sorry about the delay sending my turn in. Must've missed sending in all the confusion of the deluge of llamasever emails to go through once I came back. That's a lot of propositions. Hope that made sense.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

The numerous, mighty, and humble servants of the Divine Emperor of T'ien Ch'i have reached the lands conquered by the villains of Helheim and liberated all of them, driving the cowardly prophet of Marc from the battlefield to be cut down like a dog in the process. Now, only the Helheim homeland awaits, beyond a province held by several so-called "heroes". Cheered on by the many peoples desirous of the enlightened rulership of T'ien Ch'i, the true heroes shall surely march to triumph!

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Errr, I will take that as a compliment.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

sandbagging: when a player purposefully chooses an easier level of competition than their skill level usually calls for. classic example being when a bicycle racer races at a lower class than they usually would, in order to place on the podium to attract sponsorship.

or it is when a player deliberately portrays themselves as a lower skill or weaker player in order to deceive others. classic example being a poker player 'limping' in to a hand when they in fact have a strong hand; the inverse of bluffing.


i'm mostly just playing around though. so no worries.

i will say this much though, i'm never allowing hinnom in another one of my games.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

I think as the realisation of how powerful and dangerous hinnom really is sinks in to the playing community players will immediately ally to target them. Same as rlyeh and ermor in late age. It should liven up the early age a bit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For this game though hinnom has a massive lead - I hope his neighbours are planning to do something about it very quickly! No point keeping the peace and playing for second place!

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Personally I think this map has some serious issues. I've always hated maps that have really small chokepoints, and a lot of them.

Jazzepi

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Hinnom was among the first to be eliminated in Kingmaker, also in the game I subbed - beer, Hinnom was on the verge of extinction in the first year. I will admit that Hinnom can be very powerful IF played correctly, as Baalz pointed out in his very thoughtful guide.

Omnirizon: I do understand what sandbagging means, and there is dictionary.com even if I did not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hinnom's position in this game really came from our great peaceful relations with all our neighbors.

Dragar: Being Hinnom already shows its downside. My offer for 15N hammer was never answered. This should tell you something. Besides, you would rather attack peaceful and honorable Hinnom rather than Mictlan? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Jazzepi: IMHO choke points are OK, it just favors a more defensive style instead of being rushed everywhere. However, the map is not close to be balanced. We will see this more clearly when VPs are taken.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

I just wish there wasn't a VP right next to my capital divesting me of valuable resources that could have been used since turn 1.

Jazzepi

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

i like the chokepoints, however this map needs to be wraparound to solve some of its particularly glaring problems that arise from having so many chokepoints.

the starting positions also need to be a bit more standardized. your position is heavy in income, jazzepi, but low in resources. giving each position unique qualities completely undermines the point of starting postions to begin with.

konming: didn't mean to insult your intelligence by posting a definition to sandbagging. your reply was just a bit ambiguous and hard to read, couldn't tell if you knew what it meant. i don't deny at all that your position came from peaceful relations. that's just the problem with hinnom; if no one starts a war with them, they win. you could easily sit back with what you have now, start no wars, and win in the end. in fact, that's what you're planning to do. that's why i'm trying to get a conversation started on the topic.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Yep there's a lot of luck involved. In my other antilarium game, Beer, I'm playing abysia and have pathetic starting resources..

Scarily I'm about to join another antilarium game - I wonder why its so popular?

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Beer is based on Alexander map.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

a) its a nice looking map.

b) special starts and VP placements. even if not balanced yet, that is the first step to balance. the creator of the map can improve it using feedback gained from these games.

c) significant number of contiguous water provinces and a fair amount of chokepoints are considered favorable to strategically interesting MP play.

d) special VP provinces adds a nice twist and makes things interesting, even if not yet balanced.

e) everyone is tired of playing on cradle, glory, and alexandria.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

Bah, they both suck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

konming, Fomoria would much rather the peacloving Hinnom as neighbours than Mictlan, but what can you do?! And had I any N gems I would happily have taken you up on the offer.

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

is the hosting time set to 48hours on purpose? or on accident?

Re: Darwin: EA/CBM/VP/hard resrch/Antilarium
 

The problem is the entire map is made of single-line chokepoints. It's not interesting MP play when the only way you can progress towards an enemy capital is 4 different provinces in a row with no deviation. A small amount of choke points adds flavor, too many takes away choice. When you take away choice, the game becomes /less/ interesting.

Personally, I think this map is poop. I vastly prefer maps with lots of provinces connected together and a sprinkling of choke points. It makes for more interesting strategic decisions concerning moving armies, instead of this gar-bage (said as though french) where you just send your armies charging down a single file corridor.

Jazzepi