Re: Patch notes
 

uhuh Jim ^_^

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They are sufficient for breaking the siege, however they are not sufficient to break the siege within the fixed 50 turn time limit. So it has nothing to do with whether they are strong enough, it's do they have enough time before being auto-killed?

It's because they are being killed by an unrealistic source unrelated to anything from my enemies on the battlefield.


Yes, I could route 450 AI chaff... if I just had enough time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Several options for improvement exist... I know Illwinter is busy, so any improvement would be nice.

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I'd like to vote yes to adjustable combat turn limits as a selectable feature at the start of the game, since it's a huge factor in how games play out, and makes Kristoffer bored-should imo go from 50-300, just like supply, resource, gold, etc.

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Extending the turn limit without anything more will just prolong the problem (literally). However, this gives me an idea:
What if something nasty *did* start showing up after 50 turns? Like horrors attracted by the carnage (actually, if the battle is still going after 50 turns it's probably a *lack* of carnage that is the problem, but whatever). Regular (greater) horrors show up at turn 50, 55, 60, 65, and 70. Doom horrors at 75, 80, 85, 90, and 95. Current auto-retreating behavior starts at turn 100, if anything is still alive at that point.

Horrors autospawned by long battles would clean up the mess of paralyzed and crippled units unable to retreat in time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif They might also allow your golem to be killed by something less frustrating than a game mechanic (actually, it's still a game mechanic, but a less arbitrary seeming one).


Mindless commanders, even with 0 leadership, have always seemed like a bug to me. If they can't decide on a course of action for themselves, and they aren't given orders by a commander, how do they take any action at all? Even a dog has some mind, otherwise it wouldn't know whom to bite. Or even how. An entity with no mind at all couldn't even swing a sword, let alone swing it with a skill that made it possible to hit an opponent defending itself intentionally (i.e. with a mind and responding to conditions around it).

I'd remove mindless from the golem and fetish and give them 30 morale instead. Maybe some kind of "strange mind" ability that makes them immune to many ordinary forms of mind altering (certain other beings might qualify too, such as some void monsters).

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I still want my tactical combat mode!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Like in Master of Magic!

If only as a side minigame.

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Meh. If you wanted the limit changed, it should probably be changed to have a different mechanic and not just an arbitrary higher number -- like allowing the battle to continue some N turns, and after that threshold allowing it to continue as long as at least one side has a monotonically declining moving average of total hit points.

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Oh that's good! At least with the Berserk units, we can just assume that they finally exhaust themselves completely and die of heart attack.


But really, otherwise all the issue requires is use of imagination. I know, I know, my roommate hates that too, if he imagines something should work (that's usually the direction his imagination goes..... imagine that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif), then if it doesn't work, he gets -pissed-, and refuses to listen to any of my "oh damn that sucks man, what are you going to do differently next time?" sort of encouragement. In his mind since a computer only does what you tell it to do (technically), that the software/game not doing what HE wants it to do tends to have some sort of horrible reflection on the programmers, as the obviously totally infallible and omniscient beings that they must be, if they can manage to successfully write such a complex program. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

WHEW! Though I think a big part of why he gets so mad, is that while I devour the game, and incorporate all of the little quirks into my gameplay - he tries to dominate the game, and rails against those quirks like tartarian chains, holding him down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif And thus he is enraged by construing my comments as saying "it's mostly a personal problem". Which, maybe it is..... maybe it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Though I'd personally agree completely on two points. The first being that the 50 turn limit may in fact be a tad restrictive. Not just taking into account SCs, but if you look at armies of 1000+ on each side. At this point even "normal" elite soldiers who have berserking (or were made berserk with spells) will be left behind to die. And also the processing factor - for the most part battles do not make it to 50 turns, so it doesn't even matter how large your map is, or how many battles are fought, few of them ever cross that limit as it is. Besides, the vast majority of battles drastically speed up processing after turn 10-20, it's very rare that I see one not just zoom to the end at that point.

However I'll agree on a third, contrasting point - since people cannot agree on the validity or necessity of a change, it's incredibly unlikely that there will be a hardcoded change to the turn limit - almost as unlikely that we'd actually get a custom setting added for it at this point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

<3

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I vote against increasing the turn limits. I *hate* SC's.
While we're ranting:

A. I really wish strategic spells did more. Hurricanes <ho hum>. Rain of Toads - big deal. Frankly its a design flaw when accidents of nature <random events> are FAR worse than most spells.

Proof: Whens the last time you heard of someone winning by casting economic spells?

B. Same argument, different verse.
Fires from afar = ridiculous waste of gems, most of the time.

Proof: Various wants and scepters will allow you to destroy turn in and turn out MUCH more than any fires from afar ever will.

The game would be *much* more interesting if there were more spells that could be used on a strategic basis. Call of the wild, call of the winds, are marginally useful.

How about things like: Bad weather delays attack (winter spell that prevents movement into or out of a province).
Ice Storm - makes one sea hex passable due to an ice bridge.

Dysentery: Spell that afflics 22+ units with dysentery. It reduces map move by 1.

New Action by bards: Investigate rumors. Each turn there is a cumulative chance of uncovering a hero.

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I'm getting tired head on this post.

For the record, I would remove the turn limit completely. We all have modern computers. Let them fight it out till the end.

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Chris_Byler:

Mindless tag is really good thing for many situations. Especially great against nature nations [charm]. The only stupid thing is that it vanishes without any reason at tutn50.

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SC's have existed throughout fantasy history... everything from the ancient story of Beowulf to Superman to even Lords of the Ring !! If the SCs are removed from these stories, there's not much remaining. If you prefer games without SC's you'd have to lean towards games which are purely military historical with not even a tiny spice of fantasy... yet these games still have thug types.

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Yes there are differences of opinion, but the custom setting would please everyone. The custom setting allows the game to become flexible with the more powerful computers of today and tomorrow. I'd love to have a battle of 80000 defenders verses 90000 attackers at a castle sometime on a computer I'll own in the future.

A custom setting for the commander limit and unit limit would be another great feature thus virtually removing these topics from the forums.

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This discussion continues to shock me. You don't just want the huge battle, you want that a huge battle featuring thousands of unit... ends in a plain little month. Really, how does that improve the game? This is the unrealistic matter to me. Meh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

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Thousands of units(people) have fought and died within a few days throughout our history. Nothing unrealistic about the battles from history! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif There's no reason for battles within a game to be limited to small numbers considering the many battles from history where the computers of today and tomorrow are able to make it possible.

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Considering realism, one of the hardest to believe things in this game, apart from magic, is the fact that a single being could conquer and hold a province so big it takes a month for an army to cross.

Single being.

I'm so not buying that.

:-P

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Is that really one of the hardest thing to believe? I mean, hardest that conquering a Niefel fort by Caelum and suddenly all the population going from gigants to Wingedmen? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A powerful being can control a quite big land after he destroys the armies there. There will be some people unhappy (unrest) until you prove the that living under your government is better than previous condition (tax=0).

Of course there aren't historical examples, but just thing of greater acomplishments made by small numbers of people. 300? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Or conquering South America with a couple of spanish people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

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He was probably thinking of a single scout or even a spawned maenad taking over a province if there are no pd there.

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Oh please, don't make things so difficult, it's a game, really ^_^ and pretty fun also

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I'm with chrispedersen, I hate SCs as well. And if limiting the turns helps to limit SCs power then I'm all for the turn limit. However NTJedi has a point as well. I'd really like to see big battles as he describes. Hmmm I guess that in the end whatever the developers do we'll just have to accept it.

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There has to be some kind of limit. Given fast enough computers it can be arbitrarily large, but it is possible for a battle to reach a stalemate (2 SCs with high regen and reinvig, but only weak attacks, or attacks that the other is immune to, say both with 2 shields and trample) Even the fastest computers do not finish infinite loops quickly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Meh, SCs are one of the funniest things of this game ^^

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Didn´t read the enitre thread, so if anyone alreadya nswered this, sorry:

Any turn processing speed improvements? I´m still playing mostly dom2 as dom3, even with minimal graphics, is still too slow for my notebook, and i most play in it as i´m constantly traveling...

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No word on speed improvements. Just on the basis of the progress page. The attempt at speed improvement with the 3.17 patch did not succeed because it caused a fatal crash and had to be removed.

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How often does the battle time limit trigger due to truly insoluble situations?

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I think it should be based on a peak over a period of turns rather than an average but both are probably workable.

Whatever the exact mechanic, the basic idea is the battle continues so long as progress is being made. So long as there are no loopholes in the progress detection the battle *WILL* end at some point and that's really all we need.

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Anytime the AI sends two incompetent mages to the arena, for example, which is often. I've seen it happen more than once that two AI mages keep spamming each otehr with spells they just can't make hit or can't do any damage and it ends with the attacker autorouting due to turn limit.

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I would hate to have my game held up waiting on the results of combats involving independents attacking independents. And having a ton of IF statements to decide when to quit wouldnt help much either.

I dont mind the AI and Independents having chances as us, but Id prefer a limit on them and us to having some sort of "continue until someone wins". (which I guess is ok as a max setting on an option altho I dont think Id ever choose it)

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I didn't say I hated hero's and anti heroes, or characters.

I hate SC's. To be specific, Dominions(x) implimentation of battlefield heros.

Why? Hmm.. because there doesn't seem to be anything *heroic* about them. The game doesn't set up as a MMRPG; its more spreadsheet and battle tactics. Were it otherwise, I would strongly enjoy them. We argue whether frost brands are more effective than fire brands due to the 2 extra pts of damage....

Why? Because we have 8-10 army units - each supposedly crafted to reflect their nations strengths and tastes. And yet uniformly all but 1-2 of them are pointless in just a few turns.

Why? Games, like theatre, involve a suspension of believe.
We play in a certain fantasy world - with a certain map.
As part of those rules - we are told that these nations exist, and their militaries are primarily composed of these units.

You can imagine a history of military combats - of battles won and lost. Only you can't. Because those army units would never exist. Nations would have evolved SC's - not army units.

The logical disconnect - the loss of 'suspension of disbelief' is irritating. Its like interrupting the writing of Xanadu, or more prosaicly, someone interrupting your favorite TV show. Every time I play.

Now THAT would be an interesting Mod.
A Mod where there were no army units - only starting SC's, and starting equipment you could make. Starting spells.

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Presumably the nation has been making do with mundane units and primitive spells before the pretender arrived to Inspire their research.

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Sounds like you'd enjoy a game set up with very hard research and no level 9 blesses allowed.

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Well all it has to do is check once every 10 turns or something, and compare overall HP figures. It needs to compare 3 samples in a row, to account for variations from damage and regen, but if over 3 samples the figures are too similar, attacker auto-routes at this point.

However, I would argue that in such a case, "mindless" units should not die. The point is that whoever or whatever is driving them, decides the battle cannot be won on current terms, and calls them back. I don't think a golem is fire-and-forget weaponry. In fact, the ONLY reason that they are made commanders, is so they can be geared out, it has not a thing to do with autonomy.

I think if a mechanic were worked out to require a mage on the field for Mindless commanders, it would resolve the whole problem. Hard to ***** if the controlling mage dies or runs from the field, though if a commander runs, even Mindless units should follow him - wouldn't he call them back with him? Or would he sacrifice them for his own life? Oh the dilemma!

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I always assumed that the empires that we were playing were literally composed only of their capital province (plus however many you set in the game settings). It sort of makes sense, they've got so much more population than their neighboring kingdoms that you could reasonably say that they're a world power. Indy provinces all have their own unique cultures and army lists, but we don't get to see them because they're all too insignificant in terms of the movers and shakers in the world. Plus they didn't have a pretender god come a'knocking and telling them to become aggressively imperialistic, seizing independent kingdoms and claiming their money and, more importantly in the creation of SCs, the magical resources lying inside of their territory.

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Regardless,

Dominions is supposedly a 'deep' game with hundreds of options. But I really believe it has hundreds of options - but only 2-3 of them are even remotely competitive in an MP environment.

I mean, when was the last time someone won a game soley through Dominion? Soley by his virtuoso economic performance?
Instead it comes down to Diplomacy, SC's and spell research, maybe toss in bless strategies.

I've no beef about the diplomacy. But even spell research really comes down to a few dominant themes: Tartarians. Wishes. Master Enslaves.

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I don't feel like digging it up, but someone beat 4-5 other opponents in 2 turns on a large map by super dominion pushing with Mictlan.

Jazzepi

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There does seem to be some groups that play continually together on pretty much the same maps. Their results do tend toward certain standard endings. They seem to have fun with it though.

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2 turns Jazzepi? That seems a bit much to swallow... even with temples in every province, H2 priests with jade daggers at each temple and 10 dominion that's still only 8 candles worth of dom spread per province he had...a whole heck of a lot, to be sure, but hardly enough to snuff out the entire rest of the map unless he controlled over half of the board. (And if he did have that much territory the specifics of the victory don't much matter, since he had the game won regardless.)

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None of those are anything remotely like the Dominions "take on 500 men by yourself" SC. Well, maybe Superman *could* kill 500 men by himself, but he probably wouldn't. And if the 500 men were armed with kryptonite, then he probably couldn't kill them by himself - he just has a better version of ethereal making him immune to the wrong kind of weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Beowulf heroically defeated two opponents - one at a time. Dangerous monsters, yes, but there weren't hundreds of them. Given the amount of difficulty he had with one sea troll at a time, it's hard to believe he could have faced a single casting of Sea King's Court (let alone the kind of armies Dom SCs regularly solo).

Lord of the Rings - armies are defeated by other armies. Do you think the battle of Helm's Deep was won by *just* Legolas and Gimli, with no other friendly units? That would be like Dominions SCs - except that's not what happened in Tolkien, because it would be totally unbelievable. Heck, even Sauron is defeated by an army and has the Ring cut off his finger by Isildur (although this is ancient history and doesn't take place during the books).

If Leonidas had been a Dominions SC, he would have outright WON at Thermopylae. Personally killed half the Persian army and routed the other half and then gone home for dinner. That's not what happened.

Nearly every legend of a hero ends with that hero's downfall, often death. Sometimes from something as simple as a poisoned arrow. Generally, humanoid units in Dominions are quite faithful to this tradition of mortality. Some of the monstrous units just don't have a significant enough weakness, or it can be covered too easily by items.

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Well to be fair, all of these heroes whom you describe, are more like specialized thugs, than true SCs. None of them could "take the damage" as well as dish it (except perhaps Sauron, but that was so obviously a lucky critical strike http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif). For example, Legolas may be analogous to Lugh the Long-Handed perhaps, and well geared Lugh can really wreak some havoc - but put him solo against 500 men and he'll be someone's ***** right quick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

If Leonidas had been a Dominions SC, he'd be 20 feet tall and have Boots of the Behemoth - then maybe he'd have won Thermopylae, but as it was, he was just a very capable leader, and a good soldier. As far as we know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif But, I think we can safely rule out the 20 feet tall part, and the F9/E9 bless. >.>

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Achilles is much closer to a Dominions SC than any of the Spartans; he has Olympian ancestry (not too unusual in the Trojan Cycle), is favored by certain Olympians (also not too unusual), has such a reputation that he would likely have both Fear and Standard effects at a high level, and at one point receives equipment forged by Hephaesteus himself.

And when he does commit, no Trojan stands against him other than Hector (who also has l33t skills and Olympian assistance for most of the Iliad), and even Hector is rather pessimistic about his own odds.

Later in the cycle, Odysseus and Telemachus completely slaughter a small army of suitors, again with Olympian intervention on their side.

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Like I said, I'm not going to dig the game up, it's out there though if you feel like combing through the archives. It was in two turns though, and the opponents described having their provinces go from black to white in a single turn.

And the Mictlan priests he used were H3.

Jazzepi

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But you make my point for me.
It might have happened .. once.
And even then dominion wasn't the only tool.

Shrug - all I'm saying is I'd like to see 30% of the games won by dominion. And 30% by armies. And 10 % by economics.
And 5% by SC - and 10% by magic - and and and..

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I would disagree the Balrog from Lord of the Rings was clearly a SC as no ordinary weapons could even harm him, not to mention his rock_like skin and internal fire. Now with Superman those 500 men would need kryptonite yet according to the history of superman finding this kryptonite resource is more rare than finding a diamond mine in your backyard, so it's not as easy as you make it sound. Finally Beowulf, where he may not have been a full SC he was at least a very powerful thug to defeat Grendel, Grendels Mother and then later a dragon combined with the fact of magic items and magic armor. When fighting this dragon only one other soldier was brave enough to provide some help.

It's wrong to compare heroes and SCs outside of Dominions to creatures/beings within Dominions for many reasons, such as there's no way to accurately distribute magic paths, research, hitpoints, statistics and so on.


The Balrog was the SC... and all those 500+ goblins knew it as they fled for their lives upon his approach. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Gandalf was immune to fire otherwise he would most likely have perished as well.