Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I don't know why people constantly refer to PoD for Bogarus like it's the only SC pretender you can get. Personally I think the cyclops is much better.

Jazzepi

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Honestly I think you're right, but I still think, after playing with the Pretender Creator some more, that my playstyle is much better supported by taking a Production scale, and the swap from PoD to Cyclops doesn't really free up any excess points. Your build is pretty decent despite that - I just can't see myself using it, as it still forces you to be heavily reliant on Voi.

Well that and the Cyclops was the first awake SC that I tried to play with, and no matter what I did, he would get horribly afflicted in no time unless I waited for Cons4 and put a Ring of Regen on him, plus whatever else I had the gems for at the time. I don't know how people get away with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I guess holding him a couple of turns and making a basic shield is necessary? Seems to cut into the stated benefit of an awake SC. People make claims like "1 province per turn for the first year", then we find out they often wait until turn 4 so they can get the gems for a shield and forge it, before going out. O.o

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Dont touch Voi guys with a 10-foot pole unless they are Voi archers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Production 1 is more or less ok for Bogarus because its fortified cities leech tons of resources from neighbouring lands (unless you are out of luck and get three grasslands near your capitol... sigh). Prod 1 is something you can afford even with an awake SC God.
>> A pile of crap is still crap.
Pile of crap with kite shields lasts long enough. Even if you field a whole army of mages (and it doesnt bite the dust when your opponent casts some earthquakes) it needs time to deal damage. Pile of crap with flaming arrows can kill some enemy archers or Rlyeh chaff etc. Pile of crap on horseback with lances can actually fight. Etc, etc.
So imho its awake God and *some* scales.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Wow I'm glad there was as much conflict on the issue within the community as there was within myself.

So most of us can agree on the fact that the military is crap outside of the slightly overpriced heavy cavalry.
Some say go Sloth, forget the Cav, and mass voi archers with some meat shields and maybe shoot for flaming arrows.
Others say take some Production in order to be able to afford the Cavalry. To me, going Sloth seems a waste and seems like admitting that your army is just going to be ****ty.

Again, I dont think that Order is necessary with 200% tax and simagrls patrolling.

As far as Awakening goes - what kind of Bogarus endgame is there? Bogarus can get to endgame early because of such powerful research, but without a mage with good magic skill, who will cast the spells? Actually this is a problem for me with all nations - I always end up designing my Pretender as being able to cast my endgame spells (ie Marignon pretender gets Astral and Fire to be able to summon the Heavenly Choir, though maybe short a point or two to be boosted). But with no obvious endgame strategy, what would you all recommend? Like I said, I was tempted towards high blood. What kind of endgame does D5/E5 open up? I ask because with higher skill in magic, I'd have to either sacrifice Awakening or Scales and I usually hate sacrificing scales.

I'd also still like an opinion on Bogarus' National Summons like the Leshy.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Or else Sloth is like admitting that you'll need to build 50% more forts to have the same-sized army. Since you want to build forts anyway for researchers this isn't always so bad--you're trading gold for design points and getting more mage-factories as a bonus.

About endgames: if you have enough gems, you can bootstrap to almost anything. D5 is plenty to make D4 demiliches who can cast Darkness, Rigor Mortis, Stygian Paths (with a couple of boosters), that Army of Wraiths spell or whatever, etc. E5 will get you Troll Kings and Earth Kings, who can do any battle-casting you want. Pretender aside, Bogarus has enough communion power (via Communion/Sabbath Master/Slave) to leverage research power into powerful spells. That said, I personally don't like having weak recruitable-anywhere mages, but in the endgame individual (unboosted, uncommunioned) mages become less of a factor because Battlefield Enchantments start taking over.

-Max

Designers Challenge
 

Now there would be an excellent challenge.

The winner of a large LA game - as bogarus...
Prize: Have a merc named after you...

Re: Designers Challenge
 

Damn, if someone named PinkTenderFluffyBunny69 wins this, you will eat your hat for this chris XD

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Hmmmm, I've been using lesser horrors to quite reliably send Harbingers fleeing with negative morale in the Global War game. Is their morale less than 30?

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Harbingers are Morale 18.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

hey i'm a noob and i was glad to find this thread and to see everyone was having the same problem as me but after some experimenting i found my own little solution capable of taking down 20 double blessed mictlan jags.

try a W5 father of winters, with high dominion and scales

productivity-3 (a must for your good troops)
order-3 (i find it always helps)
drain-3 (the quality of researches outweighs this)
cold-3 (capitalise on father of winters abilities)

build the 2-3 mallai druzinhas you can each turn and set them to guard comander on your god. get a mage to build n enchanted sheild for your god to protect him from missiles and increase hi already boosted (through cold power and water magic lvl) defence. early expansion will have to be slow due too lack of a populous army. in the event of a mictlan dual bless rush on the 6th turn with 20 jags you should have by then around 15 druzinhas and some archers bought from any surplus resources and some mages to hold your front.

your druzinhas should be able to hold off any force short of elephants long enough for your lord of winters aura of cold to kick in (note that it is stronger because of frosty dominion). the enemy units will soon become fatigued and unable to act allowing your remaining druzinhas (partially protected from cold) a chance to wipe them clear and with the added potency of archers andd mages you should have little problem forcing back even an army of 20 dual blessed jags.

after the first wave simply get back to slowly expanding and re-enforcing your defences. you should also think about making a fivefold angel and some of your very weak but stealthy sacreds. their mere presence increases unrest and the fivefold angel can instil uprisings making them tacticly very dangerous, simply sneak them onto the enemies capital and other castles and watch the army production grind to a halt and so preventing further waves of attack and leaving them defenceless as their armies fall to attrition.

indeed with bogarus it is true to say, the night is darkest just before the dawn as you will find that after the early game you can become 1 to fear as your druzinha production rises and enemy unit production withers.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Father of winters was my solution to the Bogarus problem was well Nike - see my earlier post.

My own observation is that the father of winters chill effect is so strong, that even with cold resistence 50 you will kill a lot of your own troops.

So, I'd rather kill cheap troops than expensive ones. But maybe your placement is better than mine - placement is one of my weaknesses.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

My solution is an Awake Virtue:
Dom 10
A4
E3
Order 3
Sloth 3
Cold 3
Growth 3
Misfortune 1
Magic 1
Dominion 10 gives your Virtue Awe 7

Turn 1 make your scout profit. Set taxes to 130%. Patrol with your army. Buy a Starets and as many archers as you can.
Your Goddess researches Alteration.

Turn 2 your goddess attacks a weak province. Position in back corner of battlefield. Script: Air shield, Hold, attack Archers.
Add archers to starting army and patrol again. Set taxes at 150%
Buy another Starets and some heavy infantry.
Set first Starets to researching. Set Scout Profit to preaching. You need to spread your dominion fast and make sure your Goddess fights in her dominion until she gets buffs.

Turn 3 See if you can buy an independent commander at your new province. If so, get it. Buy another Starets and some more heavy infantry at the capitol. Add heavy infanty to starting army. Keep patrolling at 150% taxes. Pick another province with Pretender. Just a quick note: The best early provinces are ones with human type troops, archers, militia, light infantry.
Turn 4-6 keep taking 1 per turn with the pretender. Keep patrolling and buying a starlet every turn. Look for a second province to plop a castle down on. Something to look for: A province with at least 5000+ population so you can start some blood hunting up. Another nice province is one that you can recruit a Indep Nature mage from it. But really, just plop a castle down between 4-6, get a lab up.

After you get Alteration 3, (mistform,ironskin,) head straight for Conjuration 3 for summon earth power. And then finally to construction 2 to put some equipment on your pretender. One quick note to watch. when you hit Alteration 2 and script stone skin, watch the cold level in the province or you will get extra fatigue.

The Virtue realy is a paper tiger. But if you can get to Alt 3 without a bad affliction, its smooth sailing. By turn 12 you should have ALT 3, conj3 and cons 2 and a 2nd castle.

Note, this build also works with some variations.

Dom 7 Air 4, death 5 Virtue (Awe and fear plus the death and air helps with boosters later on.

Dom 7 air 4, nature 5 Virtue (nature gives barksin at alt 1 which really helps. not to mention regen which is hard to get an item for with your national mages

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

IMHO the starting point for Bogarus has to be an awake SC pretender that is capable of taking indie provinces without equipment, high dominion, and good scales (you can afford these with C3). The advantages are obvious and has been stated by me and others earlier.

To deviate from that one need to ask two questions:

1. Can Bogarus defend itself against an aggressive neighbour without an awake defender?

2. Can the design points saved from not having an awake pretender be put to BETTER use?

I think that the answer to 1. is probably yes except in specific circumstances, even without having to hire a lot of H3 epachs.

The answer to 2. is more difficult. Putting the design points to good use (which is easy) is not the same as putting the design points to BETTER use than having an awake pretender. I have yet to find a way to spend the design points that would make the situation superior to that of having an awake pretender. I am still looking though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

too be fair i do sorta have the druzinha close by to the pretender but i find they are quite surviveable to the effects (more so than ther chaff because of hp) and their stats in both protection and defence/parry skill allows them to take as little damage from enemy troops as possible. i admit i do take casualties from the chill effect but in the end it is half as much as the enemy and with half the fatigue on surviving ones so despite the frozen loses i find i can comfortably win especially with the back up of mages and archers.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Another solution:

+3,+3,-3,+3,-1,-2 : Gaiea, 1E 2N Dom9.

Besides generally solid, it has the emotionally satisfying extra of leaving 0 points.

First turn, build out all standard builders. Alchemize and build a FiveFold Angel. Prophetize your scout.

Dump them in with your archers. Either don't order them, or give em hold and attack.

Going this route, I have expanded 6 territories with only 5 - 6 casualties. Build only Std Cavalry, and heavy cavalry. Which you should be able to do 6/turn and build a starets each turn, with the settings listed.

Key tho is to get that 5Fold out and increase dominion. Increasing dominion increases gods hp - and decreases the chances of getting afflicted.

I think this causes fewer self inflicted casualties than Father of Winter, and fewer afflictions than virtue. Whether it could stop a bless rush nation...

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Epach is both cheaper and more effective for increasing dominion than 5fold, and does not cause unrest. The strategy is otherwise sound.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Oh, you meant increasing dominion in hostile territory... epach increasing dominion in friendly territory might still give a better result even though you have less control.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

i find that 5folds really should be used just for increasing unrest in enemy lands, with a few khlyst behind them they can halt unit production in just a few months if your opponent fails to spot te unrest and/or fails to patrol.

I find the eparch is by far the best choice for spreading dominion and using 5folds for that purpose doesn't make good enough use of their abilities.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Absolutlely agree.

However, with a standard start, you have precisely 1 resource left over, and exactly 150 gold.

The only thing you can build is a 5 Fold. And it still works.
Sure, after the first turn build what you like = ).

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

well i guess you do got a point there and it does work, if not to the same effect as an eparch.

also i thinkles that we have solved the bogarus problem, some of these strategies really work and after the first year or so b.ogarus does start to pick up speed as a nation.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Well, anything works sp. The question becomes whether it works mp.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Massed bands of khlysty in enemy lands do run a very high risk of getting caught even with just 10PD, as they aren't very stealthy, which is something to keep in mind.