Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

This thread is growing remarkably quick.

It made me wonder if there is a way to go to last read post like before. When I opened the thread I started at the beginning, so I went to the last page, and turned the pages back one at a time to find my own last post to know where to start reading again. A bit annoying.

Edit: Hmm, now I need to remember at what page I wrote this. I'll be gone for 3 days. No way I'll find the answer when I get back :)

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I must say, I agree with CW. I mean, even MSN has offline message functionality now, and IRC is great for multiplayer games, because everyone involved can have a general discussion, with private messages zipping around in the background. And most IRC clients allow you to log your chats, for those of you concerned with posterity. And given how many services there are out there offering free, anonymous email, arguments about privacy are fallacious at best.

That being said, I rather like the new look. I'm using a 22-inch widescreen monitor, and I actually like the fixed width, because it makes posts much easier to read than on forums that don't use a fixed width. I remember in some graphics design class or another, the teacher telling us that the human eye will only track over a certain number of words or letters before it starts to have trouble maintaining a fix on the line. I definitely notice that on forums that stretch posts out to the full width of a maximized window, but here, everything is nice and readable.

The text in this reply box was a little small but for those of you running firefox, hit CTRL + once or twice and it'll look all nice & big. Not the best solution, but a reasonable stopgap until something better is implemented.

Now, I will admit, my first reaction to the new forum was "What the hell is this crap?! Where's my stuff? I can't find stuff!" But that is how most people react to change, and after fiddling around with it for a while, I've found most of my stuff. Still looking for some of my stuff, but that's how we learn so I don't mind. I think any time anyone has ever come up with a new way of doing something, all back through history, there have been people who didn't like it, who thought the old way was best, and that we should get rid of this strange new thing and bring back the familiar old thing. Fortunately, we've an equally long history of not listening to these protests, as evidenced by the fact that I'm sitting in front of a computer munching on a tasty grilled ham & cheese, instead of sitting in a cave gnawing on a half-cooked skunk. ;-)

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I've always done it this way. You mean to tell me there was an alternative before? You're telling me this NOW? :eek:

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

So I think we've listened to folks, and their complaints, and the be honest I think we've already started making some changes that are resolving some of the issue people brought up.

To make this a little easier to manage I am going to suggest that going forward all suggestions for changes and such be handled the way we did this during the last forum upgrade, through PM's. Going forward please PM Mindi with any issues you see and we'll add them to the list and consider them.

Like all adults we're going to agree and disagree on how best to do things so my guess is some things folks want to see happen will happen and some won't and in the end we'll have a better forum experience.

The staff at Shrapnel Games have spent the last 6 months carefully planning this board upgrade and running literally the entire process through a test board over 10 times to ensure we minimized impact to you are customers. We've all spent many hours during this weekend, adn during the last week have gotten very little sleep, to ensure that you were impacted as little as possible. I have seen a lot of forum moves, iinlcuding previous ones we have run, and for the most part this has gone very smooth;y. In recent months some of our competitors have done similiar moves and have been without functionality for weeks. We have worked VERY hard to ensure that you guys were not impacted.

When we also planned this board move out we looked at what a lot of other forums do, and what our software did before it became broken a few years ago, and we implemented what are very liberal policies compared to most forums on the Internet. Mindi and I have started a number of communities, many of them larger than this, and have been very careful to keep those experiences in mind when planning out policies and procedures for the new board.

We've also went to long extremes to add functionality that had been requested by many of our users and to bring this board to a more modern standards when compared to other Internet communities. Some folks aren't going to like the new features, or changes, or new rules. But you know what I don't like every single one of them. Mindi doesn't lik every single one of them. Tim and Annette don't like every single one of them. But in the end we're all adults and we try to reach the best compromise possible.

So going forward please forward any functionality or bugs to Mindi via PM. As far as the site design those issues can be forwarded to Mindi but the site design was done by Tim so we'll have to run those items by him to get changed. Again some things will be addressed, some won't, but that's what happens in the real world when folks have differing opinions.

We have gotten very little sleep in the last week and we need a break. Again please PM issues to Mindi and this weekend we will look over the list and decide how to move forward. And with the new PM export feature it will make it even easier to manage :).

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Ooh, that is awesome!

There's a down arrow appears just to the left of the thread name. That'll take you to the first unread post. Not especially obvious, but it works well.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I'm a afraid that by tommorrow this thread will be at page 20 or more.I'm saying this again,this thread should be a sticky.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

> I've always done it this way. You mean to tell me there was an alternative before? You're telling me this NOW?

That was automatic as far as I know. If you clicked on the thread name you got to your last read post. Where did you click ???

---

Another topic: The bug shortlist in the dom3 forum looks sad. I hope there is a way to make it look nice without having edi edit all the posts there. It is a very useful thread and I wouldn't want it to be lost.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

One remark.

I completely agree with what Baalz said, 100%. I found Mindi's tone aggressive, at the very least, to suggestions. To quote,

"but mostly what I'm hearing is "we decided to do it this way and its not open to discussion. Don't bug me with suggestions". "

that's exactly how I'm reading a lot of the comments. Especially when Minid puts a post up containing

"Also as previously stated, we may up the limits for PMs after things settle down on the new board; however, any of you who are hoping for a ridiculously high limit of 1000 per person will be greatly disappointed. You may think that those numbers are reasonable but I can assure you that most users were well under that number and that you are the ones in the severe minority if you need that much space"

Really, Mindi, you need to stop being so derisive of your user base for asking for functionality / making comments. There's a reason people have a lot of PMs on the forums, and one of the first things I noticed was the extremely low ceiling on the PMs. Personally I think that 300 is still far too low. 500 would be the bare minimum for me to feel like I haven't lost any functionality. I highly dislike the new site layout, which effectively does less per square inch. And taking away editing completely is really irritating from a user's standpoint. I edit posts /all the time/, especially when I hosts games, or when I'm writing a long reply.

I think an ideal solution would simply be to change the edit feature. Instead of replacing the OP with the edited post, the edit function should store the OP, then post up the edited post. This could be done each time an edit is made. Once the OP is 1 month old, and it's clear that the new post that has been edited in isn't there to cover up something inflammatory, automatically delete it. This would keep your overhead low, but allow you to see an edit by edit history of the posts, basically creating a paper trail to catch trolls and mediate disputes while maintaining the original functionality of the forums.

Jazzepi

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

> There's a down arrow appears just to the left of the thread name. That'll take you to the first unread post. Not especially obvious, but it works well.

Nice. That is a 'thank you' sir! :)

Edit: no such luck. Seems I can't thank anyone anymore. My reputation might be too low. I'd better quaff a blessed raise level potion and earn some experience. My forum skills are limited.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

There was a tiny icon next to the users name who did the last post. You had to click the icon, NOT the user's name like you would do it most commonly in other forum software, because that would have taken you to his profile page. Then you'd get to the last post in the thread. From there on, I'd backtrack to the last post that I read like salmon in the river.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

If it's being replied to as much as it is now, it doesn't need to be stickied. As if something in the Shrapnel general forums could possibly go out of sight in under half a year...

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Yeah, I actually didn't know you could go straight to the first new post in the old forum either. Hmm. No way of checking now!

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

<Edited by Annette> I would be pretty mad too if I had anser all these complaints that are being repeated over and over again(why do you think this thread is over 10 pages long).All you did was whine not even giving noone a chance to make some corrections on the boards.Its alot of work.

This PM limit issue reminds me of the civilization revolution turn limit issue everyone was complaining about over at their forums,LOL.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

This is what I don't get.

Why do so many people (such as my parents) insist on maximizing everything on their computer? Just size the window to your own preferences, and you'll get text just as wide as you like it. As a bonus, you'll be able to glance over at the other windows; your IRC client, that download progress bar, whatever. If you leave the edges of all your other windows peeking out, you can switch to them quite easily.

Windows are resizable for a reason :D

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Llamabeast, you should behave well now, I have found "Remove your thanks" option!

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

LOL! thanks for the laugh!

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Richard, you can run this through a test board 10 times, it has nothing to do with the human aspect. No one is disparaging your technical prowess, we are just feeling as if our needs are being disregarded, for the aspirations of others.

Requesting that this discussion be terminated, and moved to a more formal and totally invisible complaint system, is a symptom of that very issue. We are discussing things here, and the whole thing has remained entirely civil, so I see no reason to squash the thread. If you're afraid that Mindi and Annette will simply pay too much attention to this thread, maybe that is so. They are tremendously patient with us, and I don't think there is enough appreciation that we can possibly lavish on them for not dropping PMs at us that say "quitcher*****in". :P


Regarding suggestions that game specific discussion be taken off site - I'm not sure I understand how this is in any way optimal for a PBEM game. IRC would be the medium of choice if we were playing for extended periods all together. Otherwise, due to the nature of the gameplay, and the nature of all of the scheming and plotting that is involved in a game of Dominions that takes 2-3 months to play through, the forum PM system is the ideal format - especially now with the ability to forward PMs to others.

The Shrapnel forums have always been the needle in the haystack. Suggesting that we go set up a special email to use only with Dominions, that we will have to manage separately for privacy and continuity concerns - just because the PM limits are similar to those used by other successful forums - is just plain ludicrous.

I think most people posting in this thread are displaying their ability to be rational and agreeable. We are not railing against change. We are feeling somewhat deprived and oppressed. The line between change and removal is not fine, nor is it mutable. Useful, appreciated, and integral portions of this forum no longer exist. Relating this to inventions and discoveries that universally enhance quality of life - could be construed as misleading at best.


<3

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Jim, I can always count on you to spend far more time then me to say exactly what I want to say in a more eloquent fashion.

I'm glad you have nothing better to do with your time ;)

Jazzepi

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Please do remove the "bad words" filter, it's silly. Or at least over-sensitive. We have moderation, I don't think we need it.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I just got angry for the first time today. We have asked repeatedly that specific issues be posted in a specific thread. It's not efficient for Mindi, Richard, Tim and myself to hunt around various threads in various forums to identify problems and requests. As Ich said, the party seems to be here, so we're here. But we're also in the thread we asked to be the official spot. We're also answering pm's, and it goes on and on. We're spending a great deal of time here talking in circles about a handful of issues, when that time could/should be spent working on the known problems.

Richard has asked that a pm be sent to Mindi if you have a specific issue which needs to be resolved or a specific complaint. This is to help us be able to actually address these issues in a timely, consistent manner. You are welcome to continue this discussion, assuming it remains civilized, for as long as you like. We're saying, we need to keep on task. You are not being censored, and frankly I'm offended by the suggestion that you are.

You may no longer call me Neil:(

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

My point here is that it's much easier to manage a list of issues through the PM system (where we can list out individual issues) then in the forum.

So I guess it's this simple. You can discuss things here but the only way we'll add things to the list is via PM.

So if you want to see something addressed, PM Mindi.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I have had Space Empires 4 games that have literally lasted years with much schemeing and plotting and that didn't require the abuse of shrpanel forums PM system. I think you guys are smart enough to work something out.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Jim,you've done it this time. :P

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

That hasn't really changed from the "old" boards. I think a few variations were added, but it's pretty much an old feature. I'd post what it blocks, but it won't let me :p Trust me, it's words no one needs to use here for any reason whatsoever.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

One really nice feature is the fact that we can see and manage all of our uploaded files.
I've got some ancient stuff in there that I had completely forgotten about!

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I NEED to use them all the time...

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Lemme test it. What if I wanted to *****? If I'd be *****ing, would anybody here mind? The filter, at least?

Yeah, now you can all start and try guessing...

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Yeah I had wanted to get the old stuff from the previous board too but it wasn't possible.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Let me write something:

****,damn,****

Edit:there is a filter for all the foul words except damn.DAMN,there's a filter. :P

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Password.

Just checking for silly filter syndrome.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Don't you have a cantina thread to be posting in :)

:angel

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Yeah, damn is allowed. Just about anything you would hear on network television or radio is allowed. Most of the stuff has to do with female anatomy, surprise, surprise. Hence, Tim's frustration noted above. Again, this is not new. We had this filter on the "old" board.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Narf,

Don't mind Richard. I'm glad you're here.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Lets try:

***** and ****

Yep,everything except damn.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Ostensibly because I'm one of those dicks with dual monitors, so I can stick IRC, IM, et al on the other monitor and use the whole big one for whatever I happen to be looking at. In all honesty though, Firefox is the only thing I keep maximized, because since there's no universal standard for the width of webpages, some look better wider, others narrower, and rather than resize the window every time I hop to a different page, I just leave it as big as it'll get and hope that web designers make the best use of the space. Most do, some don't, but it works for me.

But that's neither here nor there. I like the new site, even if I'm still learning to use it, and aside from itsy bitsy reply box text, and all the quotation marks in old posts being replaced with funny question mark graphics, I'm quite happy with it.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

This is silly, I don't think anyone here was championing the "abuse" of anything. The people who this change hurts, were by and large "using" the system to great effect - and there were definitely more people who used the system as intended, than the few who just let every message pile up ad infinitum.


Annette - Richard's tone was very authoritarian. You can try to separate intent from action, but whether censorship was intended to be conveyed - that is how it was received. In all of my time online, regardless of intent, this is what requests to handle a public issue "in private" actually result in. Rarely does the public see productive results occur. More often, the issue is swept under the rug, and then either forgotten by people who are in fact now oppressed (take that term with a grain of salt, but it is what it is), or months later someone says "hey, whatever came of all of that?", to which I've then seen Admins clamp down and squash that, stating that it had been requested to be handled privately - so leave it alone.

You can disagree about what constitutes censorship, and what constitutes oppression - and try to remove that stigma from your own actions, but it's all just semantics at that point.


I'm not trying to cause problems - and I sincerely apologize if my posts in this thread have caused additional problems simply for being in this thread, rather than in another thread. For what it's worth, a couple of hours ago I looked for that other thread, and I must be blind or something, but it didn't jump out at me to tell me it even existed, so I continued posting my replies in this one.

This whole thing is getting kind of emotional, so if I suggest that in this case that locking this thread and placing a link to the other thread may have been appropriate - I'll probably get nailed for telling people how to do their job. I guess I am just as easy to hate as I am easy to love - but I knew that already.

<3

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Somehow I doubt that YOUR name is Richard. :P

I humbly request that I be able to say bee itch, if someone can call themselves a dick. ;)

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Just looked again after posting. This "official spot" is nowhere to be found. I would assume that it would be in this General Forum, since it deals with the same content as this thread, which was moved here. However, no such luck. So people are getting pissed at me for posting in the only visible place for such discussion. I still have these unclaimed vouchers for footrubs, and I am not afraid to pass them out.

:rolleyes:

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I think that Shrapnel has a desire for these forums to be public friendly. There are many times that I have asked someone to take my conversation private so that I can speak abit more openly than I would otherwise.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

The "PLEASE READ RE: Site Conversion" sticky in the Shrapnel general forums can be replied to. That's the "official" place.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

I was afraid someone might say that. That my head was being bitten off because of the need to "jump back and forth replying to both threads", when the other thread has 9 entire posts in it.

I am not overreacting. I'm not being rude or belligerent. I am voicing opinions, which seem to be largely agreed with. These posts could be made in that other thread, but it really does seem to be more used so far for bug response. These aren't software malfunctions, they're just human issues.


And Gandalf, I'm not saying that all requests to take a discussion private are bad. When they are largely an argument/debate/whatever between 2 people, then sometimes it's best done in private. When it's a matter of "public order", then requests to take it private are generally just the easy way out to squelch dissent. I don't think it's strange to want to use a "forum" as a venue for public discussion.

Now, if the Admins wish to openly state that they no longer want the format or regulation of the forum to be discussed publicly at all - well, again, I do not think that solves any problems, not in the long term.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Can we please have the word 'B!tch' back? Otherwise we can't discuss Dominions unit number 401, among other legitimate uses. Case in point:

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

At what point in the old forum setups were we having problems with Tourettes syndrome?

It's never the words we use, it's always the manner in which they're used that's harmful or beneful.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

This new censorship (among other things) is extremely silly. If you at Shrapnelgames do not take us seriously, why on earth should we? This makes me angry.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Jim man, probably best to chill for a bit. Shrapnel do care what we think, that has been made clear, and they're fixing things and making changes rapidly. The point was just that this thread is in danger of going round in ever-more-rabid circles, which does nothing but distract them from trying to make fixes. There probably isn't any point in continuing to discuss the forum changes until a few more days have passed and we can actually see where Shrapnel were heading. Sending them a PM with any specific issues is just a convenient way to make sure everything is on their list.

I suggest bringing up any remaining worries in a week or so, and in the meantime we can just go and hang out in the Dominions forum.

I am pleased to wake up this morning and find that the small-text-reply-box issue is fixed. I can read what I'm typing again!

Certainly though, it will be sad to no longer be allowed to talk about the ***** queen, that staple of any strategy discussion. :(

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

There is this thin blue box around the avatar that is of the maximum height (80) and avatar-width (Mozilla 3.0.1). It messes up the avatars that have transparent backgounds to blend in to forum and I think it looks silly with normal avatars as well. I would really like to see it gone (even tough my small pink blob seems quite funny bumping in to lines and turning back again and again).

Also the animated clapping hands... Urgh. Still there.

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Default font size in non-WYSIWYG edit boxes is better now! :up:

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

LOL! :D

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Llamas and Lizards can coexist peacefully! :D

I am a reasonable man, and I see the merit in giving the exhausted Shrapnel personnel some much needed rest. <3

Re: New Board - Props and Slops
 

Now that I had the time to read through the entire thread I can tell you that it's even being linked to in the second page of this thread ;) but you're right that this discussion thread seems to have taken over that role and the official thread is more like just an announcement.