Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Haha. LOL @ discrete math . . .

Okay well first, in understanding what discrete math means, let's discern "discrete" from "discreet;" the former means separable, finite parts, while the latter means careful, cautious, guarded, hidden, particularly in terms of speech.

Apples are discrete until you turn them into applesauce. Water is not discrete until you turn it into ice cubes.

So discrete mathematics deals with finite, identifiable numbers and sets. In other words, it's not calculus. This group of math theories requires non-infinity, which is to say that there must be a finite amount of numbers between 0 and 1.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Well, discrete math can certainly deal with infinite amount of elements. Other than that, you have some PMs to answer. :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

People will glean information wherever they can. Though graphs are the easiest to read they are also at times the most misleading pieces of information.

The research graph won't tell you what a person has researched and there is a big difference between a nation with level 4 spells in most paths and a player with level 8 or 9 spells in just one path. The army graph is extremely misleading as some increases are free militia from random events. Little would you know that the player lost all their good units to a Bogus attack. I personally think that the hall of fame and pretender descriptions are more useful indicators at this stage of the game.

In the end, nothing is more informative then a scout. A scout that witnesses a battle can tell you the exact makeup of an enemies army, what paths they've researched, what their exact bless is along with the rough magic levels of their god, and it also allows you to witness the effectiveness of their expansion armies and what they might be weak to. Outside of battle they tell you where the enemy is and where their infrastructure lies. If you want to know your enemy, use your eyes. (Or in this case the eyes of a devoted minion.)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Why did the turn deadline get pushed forwards today? And how does it normally work, is it like when everyone has submitted their turns, the server sends the next turn and gives a 24h deadline for that one?

PS. I too think that scoregraphs off is the better option for MP games. You can extract a bit too much info out of them even on the first few turns.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Discreet maths means you don't speak about maths at all ;)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

3. Mathematics.
a. (of a topology or topological space) having the property that every subset is an open set.
b. defined only for an isolated set of points: a discrete variable.
c. using only arithmetic and algebra; not involving calculus: discrete methods.


I feel really embarrassed now. I thought that "discreet" wasn't even a word. I feel really .... well, awful. :eek:


Regarding the score graphs though, personally I've determined that the game is vaguely a nightmare without them. You can learn a lot with scouts, but there's much more that they can't tell you about progress, and about the relative balance of power.

2 examples of recent games without graphs - first one, the end of the game was like a big fart in the face. Seriously. It came down to 3 of us, 2 who knew we were smaller, and 1 who was over 2/3 of the map at that time. We didn't realize how enormous he was, and when he dropped ALL the elemental royalty on us at once, it was just ridiculous. Second example, is a game that I think I'm winning. I "think" so. But then, I just killed someone's god, and I think HE thought that he was winning as well, considering how cavalier and aggressive he was, but it seems his research is significantly lower than mine. How much lower? I don't know, "a significant amount".


I honestly think that of all the things I am picky about in a game, I'm not going to join another that has graphs off. It could be exciting if it was a game entirely full of highly experienced and skilled players. If anyone in the game can't attach "high" to their experience and skill, then they are probably better off with graphs - if for no other reason than that they can correlate their current actions, with their relative power in the game. There may be misleading things in the graphs, but it's unlikely they can be as misleading as no graphs at all. :p

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

To answer your first question. I personally didn't move the turn deadline back. It must be a result of the server staling yesterday. It had gone at least five hours without updating any of the game pages.

To answer your second question. Yes, the game is set to quick host. As soon as all turns are submitted the game will generate a new turn and set the turn deadline to 24 hours from that moment.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

[Regarding the score graphs though, personally I've determined that the game is vaguely a nightmare without them. You can learn a lot with scouts, but there's much more that they can't tell you about progress, and about the relative balance of power.

2 examples of recent games without graphs - first one, the end of the game was like a big fart in the face. Seriously. It came down to 3 of us, 2 who knew we were smaller, and 1 who was over 2/3 of the map at that time. We didn't realize how enormous he was, and when he dropped ALL the elemental royalty on us at once, it was just ridiculous. Second example, is a game that I think I'm winning. I "think" so. But then, I just killed someone's god, and I think HE thought that he was winning as well, considering how cavalier and aggressive he was, but it seems his research is significantly lower than mine. How much lower? I don't know, "a significant amount".

The research graph measures accumulated research points (alafaik)
those points rollover to spell levels on a predictable arithmetic series.

I have a rough rule of thumb that converts bars = into research levels. Sure, it if he has dual researched vs single tree research blah blah. But its more accurate to do it from the scores (or is it stats).html file.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Well so far this sucks.. My home province is a wasteland and my income is pathetic.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Homeland income or resource is not affected by terrain whatsoever.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I've generally found that my placement seems tied to my scales. Ie., if I take drain, death, etc - I typically end up in wastes. If I take heavy growth, I more commonly end up in forests.

Heavy Production = often surrounded by mountains, forests.

Hasn't anyone else noticed the same?

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

It looks like you took turmoil 3, which reduce income by 21%, as opposed to most people who took order 3.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I do not really think so in this game. There are 12 placement clusters, other than R'lyeh, each cluster is only 2 or 3 provinces. Everyone is guaranteed some plains and some forest/mountain next to his capital.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

See, I think the program hashes all sites, and ranks them.
It then goes through and assigns the best sites to the the players with the best scales.

I *think* this to be true - it does seem to have variability.
Also, player created starting locations seem to remove some of the benefit of positive scales, by creating more or less equal starting positions (which I don't think is actually intended).

It would be interesting to take a map with 3 sites in wastes, 3 neutral sites, and 3 positive sites - and then take 3 players with +3 +3 +3 scales, 0 0 0 scales and -3 -3 -3 scales

And see where the computer assigned them. I *don't* think its luck.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Well, I am just glad that my strat doesn't rely on capital only troops for anything. 5 neighbors, 9/11/16/17/19 resources. One is grass, the other 4 are plains - that's it. :S (Edit - If I had taken Sloth it would be even worse, I'd be buried without being able to build mammoths. It barely works here, so I'm not really complaining, just something you might be wary of next time you do starting positions.)


Oh and last time I played Caelum, it started me in the mountains. I don't think I've noticed too rigid a guideline with that, but it does seem to have a strong tendency towards certain terrain types, with certain nations/scales.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Eh well I do have turmoil but it seems I have even less income than the 25% or whatever penalty would give me from the normal ammount. That and I got hit with a random event that gave me unrest in my capital.. Which sucks even more considering I have luck 3.. just bad bad luck.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I think luck is seriously screwed. In all the games I take turmoil/luck, I get hit by way more bad events than good.

If you go turmoil 3, and other people go order 3, that's already 40% difference in gold. And Pan starts with woodland citadel, which has only 30 admin, so you lose another 10% compared to a fortified city.

Still, you get all those free menads, so it cannot be that bad. ;)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Yeah, I guess by turn 20 I'll have more maenads than I know what to do with. Prob is by then everyone else will have like 20 provinces and I'll still be saving up to buy my second Pan so I can take my 3rd province.. Haha.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Income = Population/100*(1+domain income bonus)*(1+castle admin/200)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Assuming you have turmoil 3 and everyone else has order 3, then you have should have 34.7% less gold then everyone else (given that all other things are equal of course). It sounds worse if you compare gold income in the other direction. Those with order 3 should have about 53.2% more gold then you.

However, as noted their are several advantages that tip the balance in the other direction. First of all is the design points. Taking turmoil 3 nets you 240 design points more then taking order 3. Even with luck 3 you are still above by 120 points, which could go to growth and production in order to overcome the income gap, or to your god in order to improve your sacreds. The second advantage is, as already mentioned, maenads. Though you only reap this advantage with the recruitment of Pans. If your not buying pans then there was never a point in taking turmoil, aside from the sweet turmoil luck combo (which I have had much better "luck" with apparently). I personally start my Pangaea games by hiring only the hoplites and Pans if I can afford them. If I can't afford a Pan then I generally don't buy a commander at all and horde the cash until next turn. I might also by the cheapest commander in order to move around my freespawn. I generally do this until my income is more sustainable.

For expansion put the hoplites up front to take arrow fire and use the maenads as flankers. It sounds backwards but I find it works out the best this way.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Hrrm thanks for the tips. Hoplites probably are a much better choice than the cataphracts I was trying to buy when gold is low.

Cataphracts may be better and rarely die but gold for gold they are not nearly as good a value as hoplites.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I am announcing that Mictlan and Pythium have entered a 6 round NAP. In my understanding, the leader of Pythium is willing to confirm this.

Thank you. That is all.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Absolutely.

The daughter of law has been betrothed to the Emerald Prince. Peace shall rule our lands. One day our peoples shall be as one.

In the meantime we have much to learn from the people of Law. And a Nap + 6 is the least of our hopes. I hope that soon we will confirm a mutual defense pact.

Peace to those of goodwill - Virtue to those otherwise inclined.

Pyth

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Has anyone received any PMs from me? I've sent a few, and my "Sent Box" shows 0 messages still...

I at least wish Pythium/Chris has received my messages :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I've received a PM from you. You have to mark a check box at the bottom of the compose message page in order for a copy of the PM to be saved to your sent folder. Its rather annoying.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Ok, got it. Check your PMs, AoE :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Pangaea sends its condolence's to the families of the brave Ashdod warriors who died in the tragic battle with Pangaean forces as they thought they went to do battle with independent rebels.

They fought bravely and killed many maenads and a few valiant centaurs. Thankfully many more maenads have volunteered for service in our armed forces to replace those lost on this day.

We will erect a temple in honor of the Ashdod soldiers on the site of their death in the near future to commemorate their bravery.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Ah, the wonderful thing about maenads is that there are always more where they came from. That and they make excellent target practice.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

And they keep your fur free of nits and burrs! :rolleyes:

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

And they polish your . . trophies!

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

You have more than one.... trophy? :eek:

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

It's not so much a trophy as... a font. A font of immaculum.

Jazzepi, immortal

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Question:

Does NAP3 mean by definiton a lasting non-aggression pact that won't end until either of the nations declares so, and after that declaration you can only attack after 3 turns?

Just a bit mixed up with the terms, when there's NAP3 or a 3t NAP and someone mentioned a NAP +3 ...

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

There are two different things..

A nap of a certain duration, or a nap of infinite duration, which only expires a number of turns after notification.

So for example, when I say nap + 3, it means a nap that continues indefinitely until the 3rd turn after either party notifies.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

NAP3 or a 3t NAP and someone mentioned a NAP +3, they are all the same. Unless specifically stating NAP shall last how many turns then expire, all should be considered indefinate until notice is given + how many turns specified in NAP agreement.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Else it is a Peace Accord, or some such thing, an Armistice perhaps. Of course, it's hard to expect so many complicated terms thrown about on the internets, especially in a multi-lingual community.

But still, I don't see what's wrong with telling someone, "you're my ***** now, and I'll give you 3 turns eviction notice when I come to take your stuff".

:shock:

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Pangaea would advise Ashdod to move no further north as we lay claim to those territories 200 and 209. Failure to heed this warning could result in the loss of your army.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

This map with no natural barriers sure leads to a lot of early bumper cars, and spear shaking. :shock:

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Fortunately we have diplomacy. :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I'm sorry to disagree with the fine nation of Pangaea but province 209 is under the dominion of the Nation of Man, or at least will be unless something unexpected occurs between now and tomorrow.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Very well If 209 is under the dominion of man It can stay there as long as the dominion of man does not spread further to the East. Though the last time someone attempted to take a province same turn as me it didnt turn out well for them. But neither of us knew the other was going for it.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Considering the server is down - when it comes back up can we have a reasonable delay - we don't know when the server is coming up, and I will be away for labor day weekend

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Thats ok, I'll sub for you. I umm promise *Finger's crossed* not to send all your gems and money to Pangaea while your gone. :D

I wasn't aware the server was down though.. I guess that would explain why I never got a confirmation email when I revised a turn in another game a little while ago.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Maybe the turn 11 deadline should be moved to Monday morning after the server comes up? Is there a risk of staling turns if the server comes up suddendly and you haven't sent your turn yet?

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

It really does :)

Not exactly the easiest game to start the Dom3 MP career, but the diplomacy sure gets important here. I wish I had had a corner or map edge start... the score graphs tell that some nations definitely had more elbow room in the beginning than others :)


... or they just knew how to expand faster!

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

thats exactly my point - plus llama is upgrading to 3.20 and we don't know what issues that will cause for people

For example..3.17 causes one of my computers to crash. Still no idea why.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

If given the chance I will delay the game for 8 hours once the server is back online. I need to see what the difference is for UK time is.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

When I checked in on saturday, the game was set for tuesday. Was cool, was inlines with what I said being away for labor day.

Someone moved the game UP, causing me to stale.

I'm dropping. Best wishes.

Chris

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

Sorry, but why didn't you just send in your turn before the weekend? Besides, I don't think one stale is by itself a reason to quit.

No offense though, sorry to hear you want to drop.

Re: Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I *couldn't* upload a turn before the weekend. Llama server wasn't responding.