Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Decaying targets decay for a while after battle as well.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

My problem with paralysis isn't anything about the spell itself (I think it's fine, though I wouldn't object strongly agains a slight duration reduction.) What does bother me is that the AI, once scripting runs out insist on spamming it over and over in preference over soul slay, even with high level astral mages.

While I could possibly understand S3 caster to default to paralyze for fatigue reasons, in my opinion anything S4 or higher should always go for soul slay, to prevent the all too common 50-turn-desperate-but-doomed-attempts-to-kill-the-opposing-SC-followed-by-the-inevitable-turn-limit-rout. This should go double for any mages in a communion, who shouldn't care too much about fatigue. (As opposed to the player setting up the communion, who should defintely worry about setting it up so the masters don't have to worry. ;))

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Got to agree with Amhazair here. I just cast about 200 x paralysis at a SC attacking my castle. It had 28 MR, not one effected the SC. I hate the constant casting of any 1 spell after scripting has run. If I had cast a few frozen hearts which my mages were capable of, then that would be 1 dead SC and a lot sooner than 50 rounds. The battle ended very unsatisfactory for everyone concerned with the attacker auto-routing, then my forces auto-routing. The SC had only 3 AP so took a age leaving the battlefield.

My mages also spammed rage, which was obviously useless against a single attacker! I would have prefered, frozen heart, water strike and/or geyser.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

My tests came to pretty much the same conclusion about the success rate, so why are all these other people getting so unlucky on their resistance rolls and losing their high MR SCs?

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

It's chance, and the errors in human perception relating to chance.

What happens is that people very keenly remember when their expensive super-SC fails that one time, especially when the fail is catastrophic and results in autodeath, and more so if it happens early in a battle.

People forget that that same SC might have already been subject to many MR rolls over time and passed them all; or they forget they have many SCs over the course of playing Dom3 who have passed hundreds of such rolls between them and it's only that one that has failed catastrophically. They may forget the times that SCs fail a MR check but it was for something trivial like taking damage from an astral geyser, and so lose perspective of how easy it can be to fail an MR roll.

Alternatively, you can view it this way. If you've got a community of hundreds, each of whom is running a few games, each game with a few SCs, if all those SCs have a 1/1000 chance of failing an MR roll, it's actually very likely at least one SC walks into a battle and fails an MR roll with a disasterous result, because you've got over 1000 SCs facing MR rolls.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

[quote=K;634346][quote=NTJedi;634337]Burn strawman burn. Nobody has said that. Who is this mysterious lobby anyway? :re:

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

[quote=K;634697]This is not a fact. MR 15 is high, MR 18 is pretender level. MR 23 is not enough to make commander stay non paralysed if the other side has several astral mages capable of casting paralyse.

There are other things needed on a fighting pretender or other SC than just MR boosting items. Led Shield, as a prime example is not an easy choise for a non-cavalry SC as the fatigue cost is just too high.

What is it with K and this spell anyway? Does he just love to argue, or is it his special precious baby? Reducing the duration doesn't change things that much, but it would make it a better and more balanced spell... much less frustrating too.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

[quote=Adept;635830]This is getting amusing. How many SCs you see have a high base MR of 15? I cannot think of one, maybe you can remind me?

SCs need to get their MR up because, hey, there is a small spell called soul slay in case you forgot. And did I say mind hunt? How about enslavement? Charm? Bone melter? Blindness? You got to be crazy to send SCs out without decent MR gears unless it is first year pretender SC.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

I know I'm jumping late into this and no, I haven't read the entire thread, just scanned it at random and read the end, so I apologize if I repeat or something.

Regarding paralyze and SCs I've got to agree with Agema. Yes, its nice to role play with SCs, but no, they shouldn't be impregnable. As strong as they are some thing some time, when they are out of luck maybe, should be able to hit and/or kill them.

Yes, I agree with both. From bitter past experience there is little I hate as much as the AI spamming useless spells (and paralyze is a great example) while it could have cast much better spells (like soul slay, frozen heart, dust to dust etc).

This relates to a suggestion on a different current thread (forgot name) to allow scripting categories. Meaning order your mage to concentrate on evocation only (so S2W2 mage will spam frozen heart and not paralyze).
Another option is to change the weights the AI gives to spells. Lower paralyze some, increase soul slay and frozen heart some.
A third, unlikely option is to allow players to actually set the spell weights per game. So players will usually stick with defaults but on occasions make changes as they see fit.

I like the first option most since its simple and it gives a measure of control to the player.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

[quote=Adept;635830]And if the other party has several astral mages, you should not expect your MR 23 SC to stay alive. Several astral mage and a decent army or strong PD is enough of an investment to defeat a (wrongly geared) SC. You should come and see MP more often.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

I've said this before, but since we're taking about perception I'll say it again.

The real problem with people's perception in this regard is that many have concluded that paralysis equals death. This is not true in the same way that paralysis equals removed from battle. Though the spell is intended to remove the unit, it still has a presence on the field and can be attacked. If paralyzed the unit is also not dead and can even be more harmful to the enemy by being unable to retreat.

If paralysis is as bad as you claim then, by all means, counter it with combatants that don't care. Use fire shields, poison clouds, or items that auto-cast spells. Then stack on protection and now it matters less that you can't move, attack, or defend yourself. If your really sick of your SCs dying all together then learn to always play with death magic and use immortal units with a strong dominion strategy.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Funnily enough this thread wasn't about super combatants, but about the paralysis spell in general.

I listed those MR's to remind people of the scale of the game. MR 15 is quite decent for a thug (like a sleeper).

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

[quote=konming;635836][quote=Adept;635830]MP? If you are talkign about multiplay, as in playign against other humans, I've been doing that since early days of the original dominions.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

How many decent players spam paralyze on sleeper grade thugs? Even in your sleeper example, you can bring a single elephant and laugh at all the puny paralyzing efforts. Now tell me, if this spell is not about SCs, then what is it about in the many MP games you played?;) At least I hear no complains about "my elephants are paralyzed for too long" argument. Care to read your original post again?

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

MR 15 is pretty bad, actually. I would consider 20 a bare minimum against astral heavy nations.

Jazzepi

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

If it is a SC, I would get him 25+ MR. Rainbow armor+AMA shall do the trick. If facing heavy astral, I would also do iron will/resist magic if possible and against R'lyeh, you better go 27+. :)

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

[quote=konming;635846]Huh?

You are probably insinuating something, but being too cute about it. I can't make you out.

Why should I care about elephants getting paralysed? I don't much like trampling units, as I think they are handled badly (it's the automatic 1 point of damage regardless of defense, and the fact that one can trample the same unit several times in a round).

I'm a painfully honest person, and do not brag about things that aren't true. I can try to find out when I wrote to Kristoffer originally to get a copy of Dominions. Money in an envelope type of thing :p

Anyway, if you have something to say be an adult and say it without playing coy. Our play styles may differ, but I have been playing this game passionately for a long time. I don't solo play, because we practically always have a MP going.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

The game was late era. I was playing Ulm and the opponent in question was playing Bogarus.

Bogarus is not an "astral heavy nation" in my book.

It's not just about pretenders getting stopped in their tracks. It's an easily accessible low level spell, which is very, very effective at stopping tartarian gate monsters and the like.

I like it being effective, but not the extremely long durations. As to what the duration should be, it seems very hard to have a civilised conversation about it.

Maybe the open ended d6 + power is too little. Possibly the formula should take MR into account. All I can say is that I find the current ones to be too long and the penetration to be too good & easy to ramp up.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Might not be bad if Paralysis also took into account a unit's speed, since a faster unit (faster can generally be assumed to mean a higher metabolic rate) would logically (logically enough for Dom3 anyway) recover more quickly.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

This is confirmed as NOT TRUE.

I had a Size 3 prophet with ~150ish hp and 3 size 6 heros with 72hp.

Only the first paralyze went to the prophet. When it made its save, subsequent paralyzes went to various heroes.

But this is pretty obvious in fact; were it true you would never have more than one unit paralyzed in a fight.

The selection algorythmn has to be based on other factors. I suggest that hp, size, and closeness are all relevent, as is whether the unit is already paralyzed.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Bogarus can recruit an Astral 2 with 1 in 4 has level 3 astral out of any fort. That is pretty damn repectable Astral magic.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Then it's a combination of size and hit points. Nevertheless it is quite easy to find one unit to bring along that you will be sure is going to get targeted. Just make sure he is big and meaty.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

Psycho is speaking from experience. We were both in an MP game and he was playing Kailasa. His strategy centered around spamming paralyze and it was pretty effective until I (Caelum) started bringing enough mammoths to protect my high HP mages.

When it was just my mages (~14ish HP / size 3) and my regular troops (~10ish HP / size 3) the mages were the only ones targeted.

Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 

I've seen this several times. If you bring even a single elephant with a regular army he is the only one to get targeted by paralyze until he is killed.

Paralyze usually isn't a big deal against regular armies because it will most often target troops rather then commanders. Of course there are exceptions - with EA Agartha you will get your mages targeted first for example.

Paralyze is not the only spell that choses its targets in this ways. Many other do as well. Here's an example from one MP game of mine. I am attacking an Abysian army that has three vampire lords scripted to cast life for life. I have a seraph and an AQ in my army. In order to protect them I throw in a Tartarian Cyclops as well. I know he is the one that will be targeted because he's the biggest (he is size 5, but has most hp). I stack a lot of regen. on him and script 5xMistform. The cyclops survives, vampire lords use up their blood slaves and the seraph and AQ were free to do their thing.

If he had warlocks spamming paralyze the target would be the same and I could put some extra MR just on that Tartarian cyclops to have a better chance to resist them. I also remember a battle where after paralyzing an enemy tartarian titan, my mages continued spamming paralyze, soul slay and enslave mind on him and payed no attention to his bane lords tearing through my army.