Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

You know R'lyeh's dominion is becoming even worse with the latest patch?

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Have no fear, Marginon is near.
At least I don't have to worry bout that.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Oh, come on... R'lyeh is not so bad...

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I had a little trouble in my other game about the exact terms of an NAP, so I thought I'd spell out here what I mean by NAP before I make another one, to prevent confusion (and to let other players point out that I am breaking the common definition, if that's what I'm doing). In the future I will put in a little blurb about this in the opening post of the thread for any new game I make.

I consider an NAP3 to mean that the two nations involved will be at peace indefinitely, until one of them explicitly cancels the pact at (or very near to) the start of a turn. Then, the next three turns, including the one starting with the cancellation announcement, will be turns of peace--meaning that no battles between these two nations would be shown in their Messages. And that's all.

Particularly, this means that it would be allowed to give attack orders against the other nation involved in the pact on the third turn of peace after the cancellation--the fact that attack orders are given wouldn't make it a turn of war, by my definition. Only actual battle can do that, and the battle doesn't happen until the start of the next turn. Is this how people normally think of it? It's what makes sense to me, anyway. But that's the thing that created a misunderstanding in my other game--I was in a pact with a dude who thought that giving attack orders wasn't allowed in a turn of peace.

I don't mean to start a big debate or anything--I just hate having that kind of big, simple misunderstanding get in the way of the game.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

That's how I think of it too. To avoid confusion, it is polite to add "My armies will arrive on turn X and crush you".

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

True, but that clarifies the issue only when the pact is on its way to being cancelled, not before it's made.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I am the person Bananadine refers to.

This game is a simultaneous-turn based, means the result is always generated after all players have submitted their orders instead of immediatly resolved. Thus what we read from the messege list is the result of last turn, and the turn you give attack order is also the turn you "officially start war".

The spirit of NAP-N pact is to delay attack by N turns and thus called “none-aggression”. Assuming we have a NAP1 pact, and that does not mean one can attack another at any time given noting him before the new turn is generated, which means no war is delayed at all.

Sorry for my English since its not my native language. I believe you can inquire other verterans in the main forum if it's still not clear.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I tend to believe that th turn of war declaration doesn't count as one of the turn delays. The NAP1 example is quite compelling.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I agree.

There are still other possibilities for confusion re overland spells and globsld.

Plus if I announce the end to the pact can my opponent attack at once or is he bound by the pact for those turns too? If he is not and he does attack me am I then still restricted on later turns - or does he by attacking end his protection early?

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

My view is that spells which can be identified are breaking of the NAP. Spells are usually anonymous but if you're obviously the only one to be able to cast it...
As for globals, Burden of Time is akin to a declaration of war on everyone (well, except LA Ermor). Many other globals I wouldn't consider a breach, although the admiral and other such spells enter the category of 'attack spells'.

Both parties are bound by the delay. Your opponent's attacking you immediately because you announced the end of the NAP is a breach of the NAP.

Then again, there's no rule that says NAPs must be respected. It's "just" going to earn you a very bad reputation around here.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I agree about spells being NAP breakers.
Casting any spell against someone is a hostile act. If that weren't so you could cast spells against anyone and still say it isn't a hostile act. ( although nobody is stupid enough to believe that )
For example VOTD, you kill someones pretender and that isn't a NAP violation? Unlikely
And what about send horror. Mictlan would be in a position to take someone out before the war even starts.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

A good point. It's easy to think of the orders you give as happening immediately after all battles you see, but who is to say that the battles don't happen earlier than when you get to see them. Really, the game doesn't say much about whether they happen right after you give attack orders, or right before you give the next turn's orders.

Also a good point, but this doesn't render my style of NAP1 completely meaningless. Without an NAP, somebody could attack you at any time, and you would never know it beforehand. With an NAP1 using my interpretation, somebody could still attack you at any time; there would be no delay, as you say. But they would be required to tell you what they were doing, at the beginning of the turn, so that you would have that turn in which to quickly respond.

Anyway I am currently thinking both interpretations are reasonable--which increases the danger of misunderstanding. What's important to me is not that we use the "correct" one, but that the people with whom I make agreements understand which one I am referring to without a big hassle. So maybe when I make games in the future (as I will probably continue to do since I have slightly unusual tastes) I will arbitrarily pick one of the NAP definitions but let the players override me if they like--just so long as we agree on one, with minimal pain, before the game starts.

As for the many subtleties involving sneaky spells and sneaky Sidhe armies and whatnot--well those are complex, diplomatically significant issues, whereas this question of what the 3 in NAP3 actually means is just a silly naming problem. If somebody fudges the terms of a pact by causing a hurricane in my rich farmland, I will consider it part of the game. (I don't mean it's entirely "okay", but still, it's part of the game.) But if I suddenly learn that I disagree with somebody about what the 3 means, well that's not part of the game, that's a silly misunderstanding getting in the way of the game. I am only concerned here with the reduction of silly misunderstandings. :)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

So for instance if they send the message in-game before they write the orders, is this valid? In such a case, the attacker DOES tell at the beginning of the turn, before the attack order is even given, but the target has no time to react.

I think the problem is that there are both turns and in-between-turns. If you limit yourself to in-game diplomacy (which, by the way, is the only one that is sure to reach your target), then the NAP1 you propose is equivalent to zilch. If you allow for out-of-game diplomacy, then it looks ok. Except if you're running on quickhost, send the message 1 min before posting your turn and yours is the last turn, quickhost starts and the defending player would be definitely right to be pissed off. On the other hand, if he has time to react before posting orders, for instance you wait for him to answer your message before sending yout orders, then I think it would be ok.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

To be honest I used to play according to the Bananadines rules.
But now, I realize, that it doesnt have to be the best option, becouse of the problem WHEN the other side is being informed about the ending of the NAP. I see, the Bananadines definition is ok only when we use ONLY the ingame message system

Otherwise, even with NAP2, we can "earn" one extra turn:)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

A new era has begun for Mankind. Crust has fallen into Kokytos apparently so I have put in slayers_ai as our new Man. Please update your magickal indices of world rulers accordingly.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

err...where's the map?

never mind...i found it...:)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

The nation of Ermor deplores the cowardly and hypocritical sneak attack by Pangaea on our lands. Without so much as a declaration of war, Pangaea's forces stormed over the borders of a nation that has never attacked another. In a shameful piece of propaganda, the Pangaeans called themselves a "living nation" while simultaneously fielding undead of their own in battle. Hypocrites, one and all!

We invite Pangaea's neighbors to demonstrate to that rotting nation what a sneak attack is like. We will have to satisfy ourselves with a more conventional, and more honorable fight. Mark well how a civilized nation acts: we hereby declare war on Pangaea. And having done so, we now feel free to attack, knowing that no right-minded nation could find fault in our actions.

the Eternal Senate of Ermor
(in continuous session since the fall of Ermor, and not intending to recess anytime soon)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Pangea did lay claim to all the world's forests a couple of months back. :)

In any case, it will soon be the Eternal Senate of Ermor in Exile, as the invincible armies of Pangea will be laying siege to Ermor next turn.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

As promised, Pangea has laid siege to the Ermorian capital and torn down its walls. In a desperate, last ditch gamble, Ermor threw its remaining armies at the besiegers. In the resulting battle, the armies of Pangea stood firm and destroyed the elite corps and corpses of Ermor's army. Six hundred Knights of the Sepulchre, undead calvary, and legionnaires were destroyed. The one sad note of the battle was that we killed none of the enemy's leaders. However, we did cut off some of their lines of retreat, and so we hope to have destroyed several leaders after the battle.

Pangea renews its call for all living nations of the world to join us in wiping out Ermor. The undead are weak, and ripe for the crushing.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Pangaea is not paying close attention if they think they need the help of all living nations to wipe out Ermor...

And playing Ermor looked so easy in SP!

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Do you hear that LA Ryleh? Pangea is coming after you next!

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Are you after kelp forests as well?

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I'll probably be unable to play my turn between the 24th of december and the 1st of january. I'll try to find an internet access, but don't be surprised if I stale as I'll have no internet access from now till the 4th of January .

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

On a similar note, it would be a great help to me if at least one player does not submit their current turn until Monday. The only way I'd miss a turn due to travel is if the next turn hosts tomorrow (Sunday). I know that's unlikely, but still.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

From now? I guess you won't be able to find a temporary substitute either, then? (You can send me a message anytime, with your e-mail address and the substitute's e-mail address, and I can make the switch.) I could post a message asking for a substitute, myself, but if you couldn't easily talk to them or me it probably wouldn't work out. Also, turns do come at unexpected times, and with a week-long absence you could miss two instead of one. Could you at least give me an accurate time for when you'll DEFINITELY be back online? If you give me that information, then if a turn deadline happens to come up just before that time, I will delay the turn slightly.

Otherwise, I guess you'll stale. :)

djo, I'm traveling today myself and it's likely that I'll send in my turn after the time you specify. I'll keep an eye on the situation, anyway.

Would these problems become simpler if I turned off quickhost until a day or two into January? I could even delay the hosting... although it's already pretty well delayed on its own in the normal course of things. :)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Eek, I just noticed that I'm going to miss the current hosting time. Could you delay hosting for 6 hours? I should be back at my dominions computer by then. Sorry about the delay; I'll try to get the turns in more snappily next time.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Hm yes that will lighten my own load as well.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Okay I delayed it. Sorry everybody, Jesus is getting born etc. (You should consider worshiping Freagarthach instead however.)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Well, I was off till the 4th, i.e. now. I could get one turn in on the 25th, but staled the next one for one day :(.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Take heart, for one day we will all have microchips in our elbows and you will be able to send in your Dominions turn merely by pointing your elbow toward the sky and wishing.

SAY as long as we're here talking, maybe one of you fine people should join my other game as a substitute for EA Ermor, which needs a substitute. Unless you're already in that game. Further details are here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=664144

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

LA Ryleh has Awaken. So, who is going to dream with us again...Dream about victory? We were dreaming about Pangea, but where they are!?

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

We are right where you least expect us, you void-scum. :)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

We deicided not to talk with you, when you call us void-scum;). We fall asleep again and we are dreaming of a better world:)

Our main computer has taken control over the dreamers!

Good job guys:)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Ermor cannot be contained! Fear our roaming cultists, striking into the heart of enemy territory! Wherever you are, you are not safe!

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Looks like someone else is collecting the death gems from Ermors capital now...

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

It's a lie. We have, however, relocated the capital.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I wish you relocated The Holy Sepulchre also.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

The armies of Pangea have become listless and easily irritated. Perhaps it is just the dreary scenery of Ermor, or the fact that they have not had a bite of food in 18 months. In any case, I think a new war would be good for their spirits. Does anyone know who Pangea should attack now that Ermor and Ryleh no longer threaten the world?

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Let's all reflect on the fact that Mictlan has a priest king named Buttermere.

He's got two nature gems, people! Keep him in your prayers.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Almost 23,000 have died in R'lyeh.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Ermor wishes to congratulate R'lyeh on such a good start! Really, the first 20 or 30 thousand are the toughest. After that, the rest of the population just sort of withers away. But keep at it, and soon you too will be able to look over your serene, lifeless, gray hills (or waters, in your case) with a feeling of peace and accomplishment.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

The illithids of R'lyeh will meet death themselves; perhaps after that Kraglos can congratulate them himself, if he still exists.

Any illithids not involved in the enslavement of Atlantians will join Atlantis, or die. The Forgiving Fathers have ways of measuring their loyalty. Soon enough, Atlantis will have nothing more to fear from any starspawn.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Man I hate LA games, so much gems less...

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I pulled back the far-off hosting time that llamabeast set for us by about a day, in a fit of arbitrary impatience. Tell me if this is a problem!

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

I think I mixed something up while doing that, and the deadline went out even farther. I'm not sure about this but I pulled it back again anyway. Right now it's about five days off, and I don't plan to fuss with it again. I'll take my turn soon, and send encouraging messages to those others who haven't gone. :)

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

How sad when dudes quit playing! A human could perhaps have held Mictlan. But the silly AI tried to defend against arrows with slaves!

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Yes, the slaves just routed the weak rest of defenders faster than if they hadn't been there. The ai had giant toads sitting idly in the corner watching slaves be turned into pincushions and then leaving for their native marshes. The ai has always been crap with Mictlan, though at least it doesn't let them dominion-die in MA.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Against a human player we would have sent mages, but no need against the AI.

One thing interests me here, are eagle warriors considered fliers when they are blessed?

Also, another thing confused me in this game, Caelum and Man were fighting each other right? And than suddenly they both just turned AI.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Do you mean for targeting orders? They don't get the icon when you clikc on details. One would have to try a fire fliers order against blessed, in-range, guard commander eagles to test it.

Re: Mistletoe - an LA game for busy people (in progress)
 

Yeah that was a bit weird. I figured Man had simply decided he was going to lose, since he had indeed lost some big battles. He was still doing fairly well, but people do like to quit early for some silly reason...

Caelum, on the other hand, was in fine shape. Too bad!