Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Well, ok, that seemed to me a bit antagonistic :smirk: i was jus hoping to prevent the starting to a flame, forgive me ^_^

Not of course that I like SlipperyJim's words too, btw. He calls himself a fundamentalist, which means his style of life is just different from the "average guy" he depicted (btw, I'd also like to know how it is so different if he was willing to say us :) ) and whoever lives his life in a less "God-driven" way (whatever it means) than him is going to Hell.

Of course I'm not accepting it. I just think at my grandma, she died last year. She was a very good woman, religious and a "good Christian", going to the church every sunday and so.
But of course "Jesus" wasn't the purpose or the "engine" of her life.
Her 2 sons were: my mother and my uncle. 2 sons that she had to raise alone after the early death of her husband, in a whole life of hard work and renunciations. She would have gave up her faith, like everything else for them - for fundamentalist believers like Slippery, this is enough for them to call her a "bad Christian without God in her heart", and see my good ol' grandma burning forever in a lake of fire.
Her and all the unbaptized or muslim innocent children dying for starvation (let's say if in the 10 millions of children who every year according to the FAO die for starvation, the 60% are muslim or unbaptized or so, it's 600 innocent children every hour sent in a lake of fire by a loving God :eek:)

But you know what? I don't care :) Because I'm 100% sure it isn't the case at all - otherwise I wouldn't be agnostic.
The Bible, which is said to be the "evidence" of all this, is supposed to having been written by the "smartest person of the universe", still when you read it where's the sensation of awe you should prove in reading something so smart, so timeless? A lot of it is mass-murdering, slavery, sexism, not to talk about the endless contradictions, the scientifical nonsenses, the commandments of lapidation.

So I can debate with all calm with Slippery and all the others who think me and my family and lots of "averagely-good" and innocent people will be sent, or are already, in a giant lake of fire forever (i mean, can you imagine it?) without getting offended by this and still trying to comprehend better each other.

Sorry for the harsh words. Best wishes to all. Take care.

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It has always baffled me why so many of my fellow Christians recommend that people start with the Gospel of John. John is the most opaque and allegorical of the Gospels, far and away the hardest of the four to grasp the message of.

If someone is curious about Jesus, I recommend they start with the Gospel of Mark. It's the shortest and most straightforward telling of Jesus' ministry (and believed to be the earliest written down). What I'd recommend after Mark would depend on what questions it brought up for you.

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Hi, sorry to be so short in my posts. What I asked people to look at was the chapter named First John. My internet connection is rather bad, and thats why my posts are so short. Today I'm off work so I can chat for a while. Tifone I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. I apologize if I did. My reference to babies was a due to the fact that when you are "born again" you are changed into a new person. Here is my reasoning :

First Peter [1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

And next:
Hebrews 5 12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that use th milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I was expressing a doctrine. Yah, I know its rather obscure but I feel its important to be correct in this subject. One reason that "we" have to share our belief is:
Revelation 12 [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So one of key components of my belief is I have to share the "truth" with anyone who asks. I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone, after all God have given us the right to choose to believe or not. So who am I to tell someone they have to believe. The choice is for each person to decide. :D

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Since every side is deep entrenched in their beliefs, I'll drop 2 cents and disappear and never visit this thread again.

Any God that takes people that heard his message and accept it into heaven, despite other,non-grace-saved people choosing to be benefical, charitable and all other "good" side of the good-evil morality scale(which is a pretty much relative scale anyway), despite some of the the grace accepting people having horrific deeds, despite many people not having the chance to even see this message, into heaven without even punishing them for their misdeeds to even the scales, and throws the rest into hell forever, is an extremely disgusting, sick monstrosity with whom no covenant can be made, no word can be taken seriously, no mercy can be expected, and its covenant must be abjured from the rest of humanity as diseased of the mind, its book be eradicated and never be copied again, its laws erased once and for all, and its followers prevented to breed until their minds are free from the disease.

Save your excuses,I won't hear them! "But you can't understand the workings of the grace!" I'm glad I can't, as I have yet to ponder what convoluted Lovecraftian logic allows an all loving,omni-everything God to even start existing or start existance, yet alone throwing innocent non-Christians(which mostly happen to be non-white as well, Manifest Destiny anyone?) forever into Hell for...eternal torment, which is something even Hitler,Stalin,Erzsebet Bathory or George W. Bush doesn't deserve.

P.S if you think I made a dish of copypasta, being a non-native English speaker to formulate these words, **** you, whomever even considers it.

Wait, wait! :) You have nothing to apologize... I understood what you wrote. Mine was a totally unrelated thought. Don't worry, you didn't offend anyone at all ;)

Thanks for having expressed your reasons also. Nothing that I didn't know already (I know the Scriptures ^_^ ) but it's always good to listen someone explaining his life styles and choices ;)

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JaghataiKhan: I appreciate that you're earnest in your beliefs, and I realize that English isn't your first language, but every time I try to decypher what you wrote up there, my eyes cross of their own volition.

That's not helping us to understand you, or you to get your message across.

Could you maybe calm down a bit and give that back to us more slowly, with little words?

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Hi, here's a thought. Suppose I was a doctor looking for a cure for aids, and I found one. Then the company that I was working for decided that they didn't want it revealed because of some stupid reason. Then they threaten me with jail or worse if I divulge this information. Would I risk my life to save people that I don't know? Of course I would freely share this knowledge despite the ramifications. The God of Israel has said he will destroy this world and all that are on it. Then He said I will give anyone a way to get off this rock before it goes. Further more He gave us the choice to escape this fate.

Suns go nova all the time. This means that whole ecosystems, and dare i say it, civilizations go poof... If some alien came and said your planet was going to be destroyed and he will rescue all who would get on his ship. But you have to do something that seems silly first. Would you do it?

I've got a proposition for you, I would like to see if there's a measurable change in a person when they are in a normal state versus being filled with the Holy Spirit. If there was, would you take it as proof of the existence of God? Or would you say its just a change in the energy state of said person. When God uses me to heal people I feel a charge of energy that I can't hold back. Totally being filled to overflowing. The energy is not from me. I'm simply a conduit. I've seen some pretty amazing things, so for me there is absolutely no doubt in my mind.:D

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

I've read way to much science fiction to get on a ship with any old alien who comes along claiming the Earth's going to be destroyed. I want to see the evidence.

You're offering a miraculous solution to a problem that I don't believe exists.

As for your "measurable change", as far as I know no such thing has ever been shown. If you've got evidence, bring it on. I'd like to compare it with studies of similar states from other religions. Reports of such states are not limited to Christianity and appear to go back the earliest shamanistic traditions. Many of the more mystical eastern traditions have exercises dedicated to producing similar things at will. All of which suggests to me that it's some inherent potential in people rather than produced by a specific God.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

I volunteer to be subject to testing, a mri maybe? Does anyone have access to one?:D

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Furthermore, even if they are linked and granted in some way by some specific god - they are apparently not linked to the specific faith, thus proving that he is not as biased as some would like you to think.

Remember that religion is a competitive industry, and most people only tithe or donate to one church at a time. Worship is money, my friend. ;)

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Aliens showing up, asking me to do silly things, doesn't seem like sound philosophical basis to live one's life by.

And-instead of AIDS-what if you discovered a cure for homosexuality? Would you freely inject it into any gay people who crossed your path, whether or not they were content to be gay?

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Better, my friend. Worship is POWER. Absolute power on people, for being the voice of the absolute truth, which can "give" absolute joy if obeyed and absolute torment if not. What is money compared to this? :o

You know it isn't a disease at all, ya? It's like saying, a cure for being... tall or... brown haired :rolleyes:

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

HB, I don't have an axe to grind about homosexuals. And if I had a cure I would share it only with those who wanted it. That is if you considered it a sickness which I don't. :D That being said, I love all of you! That is why I care. I promise you that I will never utter hate speach on this or any other forum. If I ever come off harsh, it is that I lack the skills to communicate at the level that you all are used to. This is changing as I continue to speak with you. So please cut me a little slack.:D
I will continue to love you regardless of whatever you say. So peace bro. :D

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

That's what I'm saying-having another belief system is a state of being, it's not a disease, you aren't necessarily helping someone by inflicting your point of view on them, without them asking for it, anymore than you're helping someone by giving them a "cure" for being tall, or having brown hair.

And no matter how great you think your point of view is, that's still *all* it is, and it's not going to work for everybody, no matter how hard you pray about it.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Okay, I understand your point of view, please try to understand mine. I must share, I have to. I wish to continue, but if you require me to be silent, I will stop. Its up to you the community to decide, and I will abide by it.:D

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You're free to share, that's not the point. Everyone here is here out of choice. The point that I take objection to is the point where you share your views with a starving person, in return for food for them and their children, in the understanding that if they want you to keep feeding them, they'd better come around to your way of thinking. If you want to "share" with somebody, and they willingly put themselves in a position to be exposed to that, then that's fine-and freedom of speech gives you the constitutional right to "share" even with that starving person, and I respect that right, and defend your ability to invoke it--but don't ask that I believe it to be the action or the will of a benevolent god.

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Huh? I don't get the context. I'm not a member of a church, when I give I do it secretly so no one knows who did it. Are you talking about soup kitchens? I've been to a church that did what you said, preaching to them for about an hour then feeding them. This I find to be detestable. Its all about pride. Anyway I would like to talk about cosmology and the bible. Is that a safe subject? :D

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Oh absolutely. :)

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

I will start tomorrow. I'm too tired to start now. :D:

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Okay, I'm ready to start. First let me say that these thoughts are mine and not any church doctrine. None of these thoughts are "gospel truth" or anything like that. I just wish to exchange thoughts. I wish that reason and logic will prevail in this discussion.


Lets start out granting that there are dimensions that are outside of normal perception. That being said lets continue, I posit that "god" is outside of the time stream. My perception of this is that "god" or the creator of all is holding the strands of the universe like a "cats cradle". I beleve that the folks with him are also outside of our here and now. There's some passages that indicate that this is the case, but I don't want to clutter this up with a bunch of bible qoutes. I will await your comments at this point.:D

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Each star burning in the infinite realm of space is one of god's brain cells.

Space is infinte. That in itself is mindblowing.
Humans only have 5 senses and thus cannot know much of what exsists.
For anybody to say that humans here on earth are the only form of life in the universe have there heads ...(well you get the picture).

Also when we die that's not the end, nature gives us a new body. No we dont remeber that. It would be to confusing for us anyways. The soul is eternal,why should it be limited to one lousy lifetime?

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Good. So let's start! ;)

Ok. In the sake of the same reason and logic you called, I would ask you to prove all of those "beliefs" and "perceptions", as you called them yourself.
Of course you can believe everything you want and for me it's great, but where is the evidence of all this? How do you percieve this "god" or creator which stands somewhere in those dimensions out of the time and space, and why others don't?
Mind I'm not negating it could be true, but without evidence it is pretty much like believing in leprechauns and unicorns to me - things I wouldn't base my life on :D
And as you seem a reasonable and nice guy, I would ask you why do you believe all this and possibly (as your previous posts seem to suggest) why do you base your life on those beliefs.

Of course again read no attack in my points, I'm just asking :) - I think I should just stop saying this, it should be clear to everyone who has read 1% of this 3ad that I don't want to hurt or attack anyone, but it is true even that religious susceptibility is very hot these days :D

Best wishes, waiting for reply ;)

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Those are nice beliefs, but nothing in our perceptions makes me believe it is more true than the FSM or Zeus ;)

With all that I pretty much agree - dunno if there are other life forms, but it's unlikely that we are alone ;) Remember we have science to expand our senses. But what can thing out of our senses (which actually reducing to the traditional 5 is very reductive ;)) be if not creations of our easily suggested minds?

Best wishes

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

I agree that there's probably other life out there. One of my Buddy's and I discussing the possible dangers of the Cern collider, and he posited that when some race turns one on it creates a black hole and poof, and that maybe the source of the mysterious gamma bursts is some foolish race that started it on the surface of their planet. I posited that it will open a gate to a place that we really don't want opened. I think we should have a massive collider but lets build it in space, headed away from us on a exit vector just in case...:D

One of the reasons I believe in et's is Jesus said, "I will make you priests and kings." To be a king you have to have subjects, ditto for priests. I believe that this planet is a prison world designed to be the place of destruction of the fallen angels and the devil. Also to raise a people that over-came the miasma of evil that permeates our troubled world. I think that they (the aliens) are free from the things that trouble us here, and so are innocent. When Moses was leading the Israelis thru the desert the people kept coming to him for judgments (so in so is ripping me off, ect...) His father in law said to Moses, "appoint judges to take over judicial matters." I think that likewise God has created us to fill a similar role. Yes I'm sorry to say that my future may be as a bureaucrat. Brr, frightening that thought. Argh my internet is fading, be back later.:D

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Okay, I had to move to a better connection. Tifone you asked me why I have these beliefs. Please let me tell you some of my history. I grew up with some problems that left me quite bitter. In response I grew to hate god. How dare he do this to me... So as a teenager I joined a coven. I considered this to be cool, we had a place to smoke dope and were served beer in a "safe" environment. But as I saw the terrible things that they did I didn't want to participate in them. In a dream a demon grabbed me and I cried out to god. I used his grace to get out of the clutches of the devil. Then I had a problem, they wanted me dead. So I joined the air force to get out of town. I took the path that got me out as quickly as possible. No mos specified. After taking the aptitude tests they decided to make me a crew chief for a b-52g, in sac no less. So here I was sitting next to a bunch of nukes all the time. I wanted to distract myself from what I was doing. So I read scifi when I was waiting to fire the missiles. One of the things that they pounded into us was global war was gonna happen. It was simply a matter of time. When they did a ori test we didn't know if it was a test or the real thing. To us each test was the real thing. We had orders to fire if we didn't get the recall signal. Brrr, I tell yah it was scary. So it was noticed I was reading and they didn't want me to be distracted. So came the command "don't read scifi on the flight line." So I got a bible and started reading it. Much to my horror I found a lot of similarity's to global thermo-nuclear war and the writings I was reading. And I turned into a pacifist. After being threatened with military prison if I didn't change my mind. I clung to my convictions and they let me go. Honorable discharge BTW. So I went on about my life and got hooked up with a group known as the order of Saint Luke. These people go the hospitals and comfort the dying. In one of times I was there my mentor took me to the chapel and told me to close my eyes. Then she prayed that I would have a vision. I did. I can't divulge exactly what I saw, but lets just say it was wonderful. I've looked at Jesus in his full glory, and heard, well done my faithful servant, enter into paradise...:angel So I can't say I believe, because I know. Sorry about the length of my rant but you asked. I've experienced many other things as well.:D

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Sorry If you are offended by my last post, also sorry about the syntax. It was rather painful revisiting that time in my life and I knew that if I stopped I wouldn't be able to continue. So lets move the subject off of me and return to cosmology.

I find that the references to other dimensions to be fascinating, Please look at II Corinthians chapter four. BTW the god of this word is satan. The verse that I'm referring to is #18. The bible is full of allusions like this. I'll stop for a response at this time.:D

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Humans were given free will, as a result we can believe whatever we like. True or not.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Given, developed, possess..... Semantics aside, your conclusion is rock solid, even if the premise is a matter of conjecture.

<3

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Free will is relative. We have it, in theory, but, in theory, we dont. Extreme relativism is my favourite philosophy. I mean, in theory anything goes. But anywho I dont like to think we dont have a free will, cause that would just be too simple and too boring.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Firstly I am not a beliver as such though have read decent sections of 3 religious tomes.
While not believing them I do think they are literary masterpieces they all say the same thing & the message is simple.
They are codes of conduct, a way of life what you should aspire to be written people living in hard times where doing the right thing was not as easy as now. What you think of as hardships are things that encroach on your spare time, perhaps paying a bill, big frigin deal.
Somebody qouted
As I said not a beliver but this is exactly the wrong use for religion, using it to prop you up & make you feel good means neither are you its something you should be striving for. In fact a true follower makes his life harder as persicuted lives in poverty etc because they make sacrifices things to help others. Trying to live by the "code" of your religios book is what makes you faithful & you cant be selective & ignore the hardest bits they are probably the most important.

As I said have read big chunks of 3 plus bits of others but lets take the Christian bible & employ some logic for a moment on if it should be taken literaly or as a guide.
Is it the word of God if so it got lost, how.

Firstly take any story translate it & pass it down over a period of time. That thing we now call spin happens, its impossible for it not to. Just translating someone puts his interpritation on it.
Christianity borrows heavily from earlier religions a simple example & there are very many we celebrate Christs birthday when? On his Birthday no on a previos religions Christ is ignored. Start reading folks lots of these books are the same stories with diffrent actors.

Even if you ignore all this there is one more problem, the saying "(absolute) power corrupts" seems to hold true. People with power seem to lose some morals.

The Catholic Church for instance to name but one managed to twist the context of the bible (easily done with anything) & decide going to war in the name of God was good.
What sorry is that really the message
Is the church run as it should be trying to help people keep on the path or & call me Mr Cynical here is it run as a business. Are they worried about falling attendance because more people will fail when the time comes or do they want more bums on pews because donations have dropped?
How rich are they, Vatican State thats a country & despite the church being rich do they help out when there are disasters or keep the coffers full & send a few people.
Over emphasising here but does the Catholic church try & do as it preaches or does it tend to be selective in its followings. They seem to have broken the mold of living in hardship giving up things to help others, yes they give up a few but its selective & not exactly a harsh life.
With that in mind even if I am wrong & the bible did not get lost in translation by accident can you trust these guys interpritation on it.

On a truly sad note the reason we need these books is obvious & the people that wrote them never would have if they had realised that they would be twisted to be what?
A shout for war.
Yes the human race is lost it deserves its fate.

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Sorry but I have read more of these posts not all mind.

Surely the mark of whether you are a good man has nothing to do with race religion. etc.
If some one has suffered missfortune & you go out of your way to help or share what you have leaving yourself short is that not more a mark of a good person.
Race & religion generaly make you a worse man if you are the sort of pesrson that takes them in to account rather than just treating the person before you as just that a person. If you actually happen to have picked the right God from those available I would also like to know how you earned the right to judge. I don't think its your call somehow.
I would also say modern society is bad look at western culture its collapsing. Family values, what sorry whens the last time you helped your neigbour, who lives 5 doors away from you, think of there name even let alone know them. Of course not you are living a cellular life community has died all you want is a bigger Plasma or car.
Sell my Plasma to help someone out you are having a laugh, of course the money you spent on it could keep several hundred people alive in africa for a few months. But hey its not my problem the goverments should do something about it.
Wake up people you elected them based on what exactly, so they are going to do as you do because that keeps them in power.
Off topic but all nations politics are lost because a big part of the vote is probably the sympathy bit, you can relate to them. How do you seriosly expect a guy who is an ex farmer, failed in the oil business despite millions being bunged at him to suddenly be capable of running a country & making sensible decisions. Not aiming at one nation they are all the same mine included & power corrupts remember.
You want a better world get off your *** & do something about it forget all segregation for whatever reason. At the end of it all you will know you tried & hey just perhaps somebody was watching. Strangely this person whether he believes in God or not actually strayed terribly close to the teachings of them all. Quite possibly he did it without wanting something in return just because he was brought up with a sense of values & managed to stick to them. It may have made him feel good about himself from time to time to.
Sorry for the spelling & not having ago but a few weeks ago I helped at the local school doing some work because my friends children go there & it was for kids.
The people there wer amazed I had given up a day (doing what exactly) to come & help. 6 parents had bothered to show up which kind of shows how much they value there kids futures let alone someone elses.
Society what society if it does not help me directly aint doing it.
Welcome to hell you live in it.

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Sorry probably getting annoying now but can someone explain how this works.
If I understand correctly in a time when people did not travel much & word passed slowly due to the lack of things like transport & radio what happened.
All the people who had not heard so did not even get a chance to form an opinion just failed straight off, that does not seem like a fair & just God to me.
Have you not just denied anybody who lived before & those half way round the globe the chance because you forgot to tell them?

I also have a question for the people who believe in souls going on eternily, reincarnation if you will or something along those lines.
Either a lot did not get to play at the start or another world somewhere has died. My reasoning behind this is there are more humans alive right now than have died in the history of the entire human race. Better health & the bunny syndrome, 2 produce etc etc so where did these extra souls come from? Modern farming means despite loss of habitats "lower level" animals have not declined significantly until very recently.
Does not compute unless there is (was) extra terrestial life.

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This thread is itself evidence for the resurrection of the dead. ;-)

From the science fiction novel "The Postman":(BTW, the book regarded far better than Costner's movie; I haven't seen the movie, but the original novella was pretty good.)
One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

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People have been saying basically the same thing at least since the Roman Empire passed its peak. "Western culture" has been "collapsing" since before the idea was coined, yet we're still here.This is a terribly condescending slam on farmers. If you think running a farm doesn't require "sensible decisions", you should try working on one. Jimmy Carter was an ex-farmer, too, and many of the people who dislike Bush liked him.

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Now this seems another stumbling block to me.
I can understand free will rather than have the message forced on us we are allowed to make a choice, its then our call & we get judged on our actions.
But if I have not understood it correctly how can I make a rational decision, also & nit picking does the holy spirit only help once you are a believer requiring a blind leap of faith or does he try & assist you to interprit it correctly & so become a believer?

An extreme example of misreading or more likely based on what you are told.
A badly educated & or uninteligent person is decieved by someone who is better educated/smarter into straping a bomb to himself in the name of religion.
Now am I wrong in thinking this is a true believer who is willing to sacrifice his life for his religion so is definetly a religous man.
His only error is being poorly educated/thick he is not a bad man that is the guy that recruited him.

As I said making sure the message is understood correctly is important.

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Skeptics have been raising this argument ever since believers started preaching the concept. I have my own answer to the problem that (sort of) satisfies me, but I'm not confident enough that I'm correct to try to convince others of it.This is a modern myth that has repeatedly been debunked.Why are you assuming that there is some kind of "conservation of souls", that new souls can't be created? Different faiths have different theories about this, but the universe is both big enough and old enough that the answer could very well be extraterrestrials, for all we know.

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On the farm wholy agree it is a buisness & no idea how he did but when he tried moving up to oil failed miserably despite status giving him breaks. Now you want him to take on something bigger.
Like I say not aiming at him specificly most people do not get in for the right reasons.
Understandable really you do not know what it takes to run a country so you are electing someone to do so based on .....
The one thing I can think of is good management skills & a proven track record

Chalk one on the myth, learning stuff if nothing else.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Oh, this thread is still not yet dead? I remember that I started writing a response, then had to abandon it due to lack of time and just saved it in some text file. Let me see how much I need to edit what I wrote now - having read nothing of the latter posts yet. :)

I believe in the existance of the God of Israel, or "something" which men have identified as that, his sole existance and that the other religions "got it wrong somehow", I believe that the Bible is not just a fable but, concerning a couple of things, a historical document which aims to collect and preserve what has happened to record it. I believe that Jesus Christ existed, was a real person that lived about 2000 years ago, that he was chosen and exalted by God and did wonders like described in the bible and died for us and that the apotheosis/ascendance happened. I pray the Apostles' Creed and Lord's Prayer. I do not belief in the trinity, because it is something that is not in the Bible, but has been interpreted out of it some centuries later. I think I remember that this popped up during the last few days of the talks that we had before our confirmation, and if the presbyter would have insisted that I adopt this belief, then I would have refused to get confirmed. We settled somewhat for: he doesn't press the issue, and I get my confirmation. Though I have said myself that one shouldn't take the Bible by the word only, finding the right interpretation can go wrong.

I have no use for dogmas like "God is without sin". Man can't comprehend his motives and his existence, so the question if he can sin is useless. I consider myself pretty much nihilist, scepticist, and regarding things like these, agnostic.

Yes, they do. And while I am no first- or second-hand witness myself, I make my interpretations based on my knowledge and ability of judgment based on what they wrote.

Well, mostly I can give you "yes" or "no" answers, and the things that I say might even be conflicting. If there wouldn't be room for potential conflicts regarding these things, then everybody would necessarily have to adopt to Christianity. For some reason, that is not the case.

@KO: People have attributed me to the Islamic mindset not only in regards to my views on Jesus and the Bible, but on other views that I pronounced, as well. :) Well, that doesn't matter to me...

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Not asking you to convince but if willing to post not forcing on anyone I asked.
Feel free to do as a PM rather than in the forum. I will just confirm reciept not comment on as feel I am coming across as judgemental which is not my aim.

This is a major sticking point for me though & if you look at the whole picture where you are born has a huge bearing on your chances.
Generalising but being born in the West say means you have a good chance of decent living conditions & are likely to adopt some faith involving Christ.
Being born in Asia possibly a worse standard of living & more likely to adopt another faith. So I would think its fair enough to say the odds have been stacked against you simply because of your place of birth.
If so for a God to be fair does he not have to judge you on your actions & the way you live your life with the fact that you believe him having little bearing on the outcome.
Does that make sense?

A discussion like this is far easier conducted face to face when you can keep pace with your thoughts.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

< cynic >
Well, there's where your misunderstanding is coming from. We elect people primarily based on their ability to talk other people into giving them enough money to run for office.
< /cynic >

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

And that shows the fundamental flaw in our political system:)
Once saw a quote cant remember who that said something like 5% of poloticians are doing the job for the right reasons (i.e. not self gain) 5% actually have the abilty to do the job. The chances of somebody falling into both categories are remote so we can deduce most of the time no one is capable & they would never be heard anyway.
Mind even if thought I was capable I would not fancy it.
Good stepping stone for getting you on the board of big companies though:shock:

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

"Standard of living" not only has less relevance than you think it does, it has the opposite effect. (If you'd like more context, I recommend reading Matthew 19:16-30.)

Affluence makes it more difficult to recognize your own need for any form of spirituality. I was raised as a Lutheran, and can't consciously remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus, but the closest I've ever felt to God was during a two-week period when I was homeless. (I'd rather not discuss my circumstances at that time in any detail.)

I tried to dig up a better answer to your question, but disagreed myself with the conclusions people came to in the first couple search results I looked at. The first piece I found that I thought worth linking to was this PDF from the Free Church of Scotland.There's an article in it titled "Cross-cultural Evangelism", written by a Hindu who converted to Christianity:As frustrating as it is, this is the most honest answer I've found to your question. The people who are absolutely sure they know the answer are the ones whose arguments I find the most painful to read.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

So its an unsolved question.
As pointed out in the article I raised standard of living not because it effects faith but because they are "inherintly bad" so given a harder life (does not mean worse mind you) & less chance for salvation.
Its this lack of a solid founding on important issues that causes me problems. Lots of things look fine at first glance but if think them through fall down or indeed contradict themselves.
Thanks for taking the time but think I must accept that I have chosen my lot, as I said at the start great pieces of work & I think there must be something the universe or at least Earth is just to well organised to create life without some help.
To me that is the biggest argument that somebody/thing was involved in its creation, so surprisingly science & maths show the odds of it happening are so remote that its the best argument that someone designed it that way.

From the scientific viewpoint you could indeed take the view that God is all around us & in everyone of us. No matter how hard science looks it cannot understand the atom, the harder you look the more difficult it gets. It is the only known thing that acts both as a particle & a wave depending on if you are looking or not. Other things to so everything including you are made of something we cannot comprehend.

Actually they may have found a second thing recently not sure as have not kept up to date

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Bah Youtube had a nice Zappa video relating to this dicussion but the damn link doesn't work. Oh well.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Skirmisher whats the name of the song, the guys a bit of a nutter or was:) Quite smart though I think seem to remember he has a good buisnees head.
Could be a myth again but think read he was not getting the reaction he wanted in one video so made his guitarists equipment live. That got the jerking about response he wanted:doh:
Guessing they were not to happy about it.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

It's called "Dumb All Over"

You can find it by searching youtube, somebody posted a live version from 1981 with I think spanish sub titles in it.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Good call not listened to for ages just setting up the muffin man

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

I'm sorry, but I've read this sentence three times and I still can't figure out what point you're trying to make. What are you referring to as being "inherently bad"? (I can't tell what the pronoun "they" is replacing.)

"Standard of living" and "a harder life" do not correlate in any way with "chance of salvation". (IME, the first two don't even correlate with each other.)

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

Sorry it was late, what I meant was they had been selected already as being unworthy by birthplace. No chance of hearing the word & hence salvation & one could say punished with a harder life to.

I would agree that a lower standard of living is no bad thing in 3rd world countries I would make sure once I realised to be able to repay peoples hospitality. In many cases I was invited into strangers homes & fed because its a sign of freindship, the done thing. For several of these I am sure feeding me was a bigger sacrifice than you might expect but you could not refuse so made sure I had something to give in return. People just are far more friendly only 2 times ever in Central Europe has this happened to me & never in a big city.
You do not have to go totaly native to get this change, getting out of the "rat race" money driven culture seems enough. Also people have/take the time to try & understand you help etc which strangely means despite language barriers etc you feel less alienated than back home. Slow your pace of life down & do your best to recipricate.

Re: OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)
 

That point starts getting into arguments about predestination, which I'm not going to even attempt to summarize. It's one of the issues that defines the doctrinal differences between denominations.