Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Worst. Trailer. Ever.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Totally agreed with Zeldor & Sombre :(

Meh, that turns me off. You don't have in-game sequences yet? That's ok! Don't worry! Just don't come out with a d*mn trailer! Wait till you have "something"! This says nothing and isn't intriguing or mysterious, is just... BORING :D I mean, someone really sees this and feels the hype growing?

Those sentences are totally naive too :re:

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

A beautiful rendition of province names floating across the screen and blending in and out of images. We should reenact it with the Silent Seas map for Dom3. What?

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Bad trailer. I'm starting to hear Sombre's alarm bells. I'm sure it would be a solid and well polished game (like GC), but I'm now less sure it will be able to break from the mainstream cliches.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

The game is not due for release until Feb 2010 which explains the boring trailer, they simply have not finished enough content to produce a good trailer. I agree with Tifone in such circumstances best not to even attempt to produce a trailer.

The game will have excellent graphics when released and I expect it to be very, very good, perhaps even a classic of its type. I have alot of confidence in Brad and Stardock.

Brad has already said it will use a modern day PC to its limits, so will need a very high end machine to run.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I don't think that is what he said...

What he said is that they will code it so that if you have a modern machine the game will take advantage of that to allow for ENORMOUS maps.

Whatever.

Its far too early to be singing praises or slinging mud.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

So far we have enormous maps, non-linear play, and Brads historical capabilities with AIs. It sounds like a game I would like but that many others here would not.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I'd say it's actually far too early to be releasing trailers and taking pre-orders. During the interview with Gamespot you get the feeling that nothing he's talking about is actually in the game, because they haven't done anything yet. And the features /still/ aren't very exciting.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

You could be right, but Stardock has a history of doing things this way.

I don't really see the point in anyone getting very excited about it at all, but I'm sure you realize just how long people have been begging for a true MoM2, and maybe also that Brad had tried to acquire the rights to the name, and also that this has been in the works for something like 4 or 5 years.

Well some people are understandably over excited about not-MoM, but most of us will do what we always do and wait until there's some kind of actual product to judge rather than jump to any conclusions one way or another over some meaningless trailer.

I'm sure the game will not be for everyones tastes, what game ever is?

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I'm curious how "end game, world destabilizing magic" will fit in with 64-bit mega maps. The only thing I can think of in Dominions terms someone 3000 provinces away casting Burden of Time. Is it really going to be feasible to teleport a sufficient army halfway across the world to try and stop that guy? It seems a little incongruous to me.

Also, what I took away from the "high end machine" comment was that they are using top end machines now to make the game, so that in 2010 you will need a 2008 machine to run it which is probably reasonable.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

It could also be terraforming. Raising mountains around your cities, creating bridges over vast seas, etc. You know, stuff that would require lots of memory (i.e. 64-bit) to be feasible in a large map.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Seriously, I think he was just implying that they wanted to implement late-game magic as something so powerful, that you don't so much counter it (fireball? but I am resistant to fire, haha!), but rather things become so massive in scale, that it just becomes a contest of godly carnage.

So while one person may be raining down comets on your lands, you could either counter him with 8.0 magnitude earthquakes, or maybe if you specialized in nature, you would focus on sprouting entire forests in your devastated areas, to boost your economy even as the destruction makes your opponents lands wither.

But yes, I'm sure the idea is things along the lines of BoT, Armageddon, Utterdark, Master Enslave, etc etc.


And I wholeheartedly agree that the release of that trailer can't help but be more detrimental than anything. I felt like I was in some really cool 8th grade English class "so can you use Exterminate in a sentence?" ..... but 8th grade English is anything but cool. I'd have sent them $10 just to have whoever made that trailer, spend the time on the game instead.....

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Guys, stop the dreaming or the awakening might be painful :re: We've all passed through that ;)

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Here's the inevitable thread at the Elemental forum comparing that game to Dominions III:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/330416

It quite contentious, as one would expect. Dominions III is the type of game that elicits passionate responses, whether for or against!

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

What did they compare it with? The trailer that they released for the upcoming game, scheduled in 2010?
I've not seen one single person praising that trailer, in fact even people that were enthusiastic about the game didn't appreciate it.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

That thread is funny. The guy complaining about Shrapnel not sending him a new CD key even though they can verify the purchase, is hilarious.

I am not aware of a single gaming company that will send you a new CD-key. How do you prove yours is gone? Not like they know what key you had, and can deactivate it somehow..... Just pure comedy.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Yeah, I just don't see how you can start comparing the two games when for one game all your have is a possible feature list. But hey, it's the Internet, who says things people post have to make sense?

And really, why worry about comparing and contrasting? I'm sure their hard drives have enough room for *gasp* two games. Probably even more!

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Some of the new fangled high end machines can hold 4 or even 5 games at a time, but who can afford such technology? :shock:

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I'd like to underline the fun, in the 3ad Epaminondas brought to our attention, that the elemental guys are skinning each other alive after Dom3 :D and how our paladins are defending our fortress well (Omni, DC FTW) ;)

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I'll say this in favor of Dominions3's low requirements and "primitive" graphics--I was able to play it for the first time in many, many moons, last night, because it'll run on a crappy, broken, 10 year old laptop. Woohoo!

As far as Stardock goes, they weren't even able to make freakin' GalCiv2, a science fiction game, without filling it chock full of Tolkien references, so I can only imagine how hopelessly generic their quality of fantasy will turn out to be.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge :D

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Exactly. One of the big points of science fiction is that it can afford to be ambiguous about what's right and what's wrong, and make that ambiguity a central focus of theme and plot.

Who knows what's going to be right or wrong in the future?

On balance, fantasy can, and often does, offer us the comfort of taking away the guesswork.

The orks-by any other name-are bad, the elves-by any other name-are good. That's all we need to know. Just point your magic wand and shoot, and the gods will know their own. There lacks even the moral quandry of slaughtering the bad guys. The universe *itself* can, and often is, a moral place, in fantasy writing.

Myth, on the other hand, is seriously whacked in the head. What's good and what's bad in myth can be just as ambiguous as it is in science fiction, except that we're applying those questions of right and wrong to things that have already happened, that are happening, people that have already lived and died, and cultures that we may still find ourselves living in. Suddenly, there's an "oh #$%*, what did we do?" factor there, a banning from the Garden of Eden, some fire stolen from Olympus, or a few Christians roasting over an open fire.

Suddenly, it's not the worry of a hell we may someday find ourselves heading towards, but a hell we're already confined in, because-with myth-the very morals of the Universe not only do exist, but can shift like an angry sea, at a moment's notice.

That's the real difference between fantasy and myth-fantasy's like going off to vacation in a welcoming world of black and white, where paradise is at most a promise away. It's all a lie, but it's a beautiful, comfortable lie.

Myth, on the other hand, is where you live. And it's where everyone lives, all the time, even if you're a scientist. We never know for certain everything that's going on, and even if we did, 100%, we couldn't accept it all, completely. There's always a mythological element to the lives we live, and the world around us, and you can never escape that, except through fantasy. Myth may be an illusion, but it's a very real, very concrete illusion, like darkness existing as the absence of light. It may not be fact, but it's real, and it absolutely is Truth.

Fantasy, no matter how real it may seem, is always a lie.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

That is another (*SIGH* Yet another on a list of many many many) things that Illwinter did amazingly well. How could anyone create a game using Fantasy, Mythology, Religious material and avoid the concept of good vs bad. Even for an old RPGer like me I cannot feel that nations such as Rlyeh, Ermor, Ctis represent evil. Or that Arcos, Pythium, Marignon, Man represent good. Yes those might be the most likely candidates for such but in thinking about it I am amazed that the end result is not that the game is painting one side or the other as good/evil but it boils down to a "the other guy is always the evil one" feel. :angel

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Well by using historical references, and cunning implementation, it becomes apparent, there are mostly two types of people in the world - those who believe they are good, and those who try to appear to be good. In either case, they tend to do some degree of bad things, and their success in hiding those things can vary greatly depending on their approach and execution.

There's a great irony to this. In thinking about it further, R'lyeh seems the most actually "evil" to me, in their approach. Which is funny, because Atlantis and Oceania seem to be their innocent victims for the most part - their EA incarnations are pretty unfettered by excessive weirdness, and they seem to take on less freaky traits in later ages, than other nations tend to.

But that's neither here nor there. Dom3 is just so far from bland or stereotypical. It really makes it look like Elemental will be the ANTI-Dom3. That is, they will focus most on what Dom3 skimps on the most - the UI, graphics, and AI. This will come at the expense of inspired and inspirational content. Will there be fun and interesting mechanics to play with? I'm sure there will be..... but what will you be able to do with those mechanics? Sadly, it seems the answer will likely end up to be "less than you can with the simpler mechanics of Dom3".

I want to imagine Elemental will be awesome (equally awesome to Dom3, on the plane of 'too awesome to compare to eachother'), just because I'm a huge fan of Brad Wardell himself, and his approach/philosophy to game design, and his business model. I actually want him and his endeavors to succeed, even more than I want Elemental to be the next big thing, because the promary reason I want Elemental to be good, is to validate Brad. :p

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Weren't you the one who started the "which nations do you think most represent good/evil" thread? Which I didn't like too much... :re:

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I think that was meant as more of a philosophical thing, since there isn't a clear black and white distinction in Dominions, that it's interesting to see how people digest the shades of grey. :p

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Aboleths are by far the most amoral of all the Nations in the game. I don't care what anybody else has to say about it, it's a fact :) Above and beyond R'lyeh, Ermor, Mictlan, etc, Aboleths are a bunch of seriously cold bastiches.

Infact, morally speaking, in terms of sacrifice for the common good, and the way those sacrifices were historically treated (as sacred royalty, for a whole year), Mictlan might actually have the moral high ground, in the game, if we can assume that the same historical practices were going on, behind the scenes.

Ofcourse, they aren't *our* set of beliefs and morals.

And I don't find Marignon particularly good. Too oppressive, and too fanatical about maintaining that status-quo, to the detriment of their own people. Torturing and killing their own people over religious issues, and creating an environment of terror, isn't moral, no matter what they might represent.

Pythium, although you can speculate that they're religiously tolerant, isn't a lot better, since you'll note that they pit gladiators against hydras in their arenas, for mass entertainment purposes.

I've never thought of C'tis as having a particular moral status, but if they do, I'd guess it would lean towards good, since ancient Egyptians did everything they could to maintain and expand their society, to the benefit of their citizens. There was, ofcourse, a great division between the Haves and the Have Nots, but the people most empowered, the Pharaohs, were expected to dedicate their entire afterlife-the central theme of Egyptian culture-to defending the world against demons and destruction. They did ofcourse have slaves, but those slaves could themselves rise to high position, based on their abilities.

I can't think of a deciding factor for Arco, but it would probably depend on how well they treat their elephants--their greatest war asset. Considering ancient Greek society, I'd say Neutral. They had a lot of good things going on, and a lot of bad things. They definitely *did* have slaves, and the Spartans atleast treated them horrendously.

If we consider Late Age Ermor, you won't find a more democratic society in Dominions. Everyone becomes a lot more equal, once their dead. No racism, no torture or slaughter of their own kind, no religious intolerance, and they don't even blood-hunt, and they want to spread the benefits of their society to everyone--and their *are* benefits to being undead-to their neighbors.

Late Era R'lyeh is pretty evil, but they're evil because they're insane. It's not cold calculation, it's misguided fanaticism, perhaps brought on by desperation, considering that the Illithids *are* lost aliens trapped on the surface of the Dominions world. They're not E.T., but they're not Predators, either.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Are LA R'lyeh insane, or are they making everyone else insane?
And elves are just as often represented as reclusive, xenophobic and unutterably arrogant as "good."

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Elves=good, or atleast right-headed, but uppity, snotty, and arrogant, which perhaps has application to changing opinions about the Nobility in early 20th century Britain.

And certainly Illithids can *go* insane. If they used to live in the Void, and don't have a way to go back, then driving everyone else insane is just a form of terraforming.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I really have to say, I'm very happy to have witnessed the animated "The Hobbit" when I was still in my formative years. Especially the way that they portrayed the elves as total bastards, it was great.

And I was including the Aboleths in my R'lyeh estimation. Personally I don't see a huge difference between the Aboleths and MA Starspawns - they're all brain sucking fishes. Late is a different beast all together, but that's just because we let some insane aliens rip a hole in the fabric of reality for fun and profit.


I can't even begin to imagine that the "factions" in Elemental will have half the actual personality of a Dominions nation. Maybe a third, I could conceive them getting that much life into them. I still think it could be quite good, just not directly comparable because it will be trying to excel in different areas than Dominions does. ;)

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

@ Gandalf Parker, HoneyBadger, JimMorrison

While I wrote just a couple of lines you understood exactly what I meant, my congrats :)

@ Ich

Wasn't I. It's just in my signature as in fact I liked those threads very much, because they brought to the discussion the different opinions of players and eventually destroyed the assumption that there are definite good and evil races (like it is happening here and now once again) ;) A deep discussion that is the basis of what I said above about elemental. Illwinter really pampered us on this :D

PS: EA Agartha FTW of the totally good guys! (and here totally sinks my deep-cred with such a partisan assumption :D)

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Here's a link to the developer diaries:

http://www.elementalgame.com/journals.asp

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Okay some bad news guys... any multiplayer gamers which have been interested in Elemental:WoM may want to voice their opinion to Stardock regarding a sudden change.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/352655

Here is the statement from the above link of Elemental journals which has struck fear in hearts of ALL multiplayer gamers of the Elemental community:

================================================== ================

BRAD:

That said, here are a few things that multiplayer in Elemental will have:

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

================================================== ================


Basically it means all Elemental:WoM multiplayer gamers MUST rely on the stability of each players ISP involved and the stability of the servers at Stardock for playing multiplayer games. I'm shocked such a sudden harsh decision was made from a company of developers who reportedly love playing Civilization_IV together... a game which clearly offers many multiplayer options and it's sad Elemental won't receive the same love.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

And try to put user mods on official servers...

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

That is disappointing. Both the multiplayer options, the bot thing, and the delay. I always thought that they should take the data from online games to write a genetic algorithm bot that learns based on the behavior of successful humans. Gal Civ's Metaverse was the perfect vehicle for that. But it looks like they're not going to go down that route this time either.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

The bot thing seemed like a silly idea to me. AIs that join your MP games without telling you they're AI? Why?

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I think this is in reaction to the network issues they've been having with the game they just released, Demigod. I've got a 50% off coupon for that BTW, which I think brings it down to $20 if anybody is interested. Expires today.

I'm headed out for the night, here's the coupon code in case anybody wants it:
DG-MDRC-NSHL-KOAH

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Once I found out that it was going to be the spiritual successor of Master of Magic that is nothing like Master of Magic, I kinda lost interest. I will still pick the game up because it will be a fantasy TBS but with each new announcement I am a little more disappointed. As far as modding goes, I doubt most of the modding community are going to be expert 3D modelers :(. So we are going to have Mundania TBS, good humans vs bad humans RAWR RAWR RAWR.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I'm rather afraid it will be boring game with modding abilites far from our expectations. Well, I will wait some time before making my decision.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Brad Wardell frustrates me. He is awesome in many ways, but his games just somehow lack a bit of soul.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Llamabeast: SO TRUE! That is exactly what I think about nearly all the Stardock games I've played. Gal Civ was a great game, and actually lots of fun, but I just ran out of steam on it, where I'm still playing Civ 4. Gal Civ just...had too little character. Sins was even worse. I suppose it's an excellent multiplayer game, but singleplayer it had no life. Cool and all, but I just couldn't play it for long. No soul is perhaps the best way I've heard to describe it.

Is demigod worth it, Baalz? I'd like to give it a try but haven't heard a lot about it.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I'm enjoying Demigod, but it's not for everyone. I'm not usually a big fan of RTS games, but marketing hype aside this really does have a lot more RPG elements than RTS. Imagine Diablo, only the whole game is scaled so you level all the way up from level 1 in a 30-45 minute game, spit everybody into two teams and try to kill each other's base. You don't build buildings or recruit units (though some heroes have minions they can summon) or collect resources other than exp and gold (mostly from killing stuff). I think it's pretty interesting the differences you can build into a demigod design - there are so many different options when you consider all the different types of items and skills you can buy that you kinda have to have a build in mind before you start the faster paced game (you have to know roughly which item you plan on buying first, etc. You don't have time to sit and consider the cost effectiveness of things durring a game). What I find really fun is playing the meta-game and building my demigods to go against how the other players expect. For instance taking the big lumbering living castle dude and getting a bunch of speed buffs and slow debuffs. People expect to run up, whack me, then retreat and heal to slowly wear me down and instead get "OH GOD HE'S RUNNING ME DOWN!!!" Ah, good times. Anyway, I find it a lot less "memorize the optimal build order and practice over and over again to shave a couple seconds off of it" that annoys me in most RTS games.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Exactly!

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to force myself to like Gal Civ 2. Bought all the expansions, fully updated it etc. but there is just nothing about the game to like for me :( I must have played Masters of Orion 1+2 until the image of the screen had burnt itself into my eyes. I wanted so much to enjoy Gal Civ 2, but this so called spiritual successor to the MoO series just feels like a very hollow shell to me.

Stardock seems to be a promising outfit, but they have yet to produce a game that grips my attention for more than a few minutes. Pretty certain I'll pass on Demigod, and will certainly want to play a demo of Elemental before they get any more of my hard earned cash.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I had high hopes for the new fantasy tbs game but when I heard that there wouldn't be any actual fantasy races I lost interest. I have always avoided playing the human races in any fantasy game so this one sound just plain bland to me. I think I will stick with dominions 3 and fall from heaven 2 mod for civ iv.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Of the games that Stardock sells, i think the best one today is Sins of Solar Empire, it is a really good strategy game, but the best think in it is the community mods... They really bring the game to life...

I also didn´t got involved in Galciv (both I and II) and think MOO2 is still a better game...

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Lol, I thought I was the only one. I thought everyone loved that game but it just felt so bland to me. I tried so hard to like it, it seemed in theory like a game I should really like but it felt like playing a spreadsheet.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

I can safely say that I've had far more fun playing around with spreadsheets than I ever have from playing Gal Civ 2 :)

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Funny, I did the same - threw good money after bad by buying expansions thinking that would liven the GalCiv games up. Never could get it into it - missing all the charm and soul of MOO2. Now I see the kingdom names, lack of fantasy races, etc in Elemental and it sounds like another big platter of rice cakes...unfilling and no flavor.

Re: OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS
 

Well looks like I am an exception in this thread, in that I loved GalCiv2. There's nothing quite like playing on suicidal level on a gigantic map being attacked by 4 other races at once, desperately trying to survive in a very hostile universe.

Personally, many times playing the game its given me the, 'star wars' or 'Babylon 5' feeling of a truely epic space conflict.

Perhaps its the interface that gives the impression of no soul? But I would say its polished, slick, user friendly and very funtional. So functional and easy to use, you can run a 100+ planet empire before the game starts to drag. Running a 100+ province empire in Dom3 is certainly considerably alot more micromangement.

The tech tree contains alot of humour, the races have different, 'personalities' (different AI scripts), do you really not have any fun designing and redesigning your ships from fighters to mainline battleships? Then orgainising them into fleets, deploying those fleets for a first strike on a enemy empire? Or building up a massive economic and trade empire?

Surprised so many people don't like it!

I suspect Elemental will be equally polished, slick and user friendly with decent AI. I have not really been paying much attention to its development but have high hopes and I will be buying it once its officially released, personally not keen on playing alpha and beta versions.