Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Regarding Yomi:

I am admittedly not that familiar with Yomi, but if it needs a boost, I do not think it well advised to do it through making the Dai-Oni more powerful. The unit is already plenty powerful with excellent base stats. The starting armour is not good, but it is easily replaced even early on. The magic paths of the Dai-Oni allows for the casting of excellent buff spells after a little research is done, so it is not really dependent on a good bless.


Regarding R'lyeh:

I think pop-kill is the way to go. Perhaps not as drastic as with Ermor, but this seems like a good compromise. Limiting R'lyeh's astral power - other than through economics - is not such a good idea, however. The nation is a powerhouse, but with a dominion that makes everyone else insane it needs to be, and as far as I can see, astral is a big part of what makes it powerful later on. If there is a problem, I see it more as one of quantity and not of quality, which means limiting the amount of high-astral mages, not the level of astral on each mage, is the way to go - and increasing the pop-kill effect should accomplish this.


Regarding invasion of water provinces:

I do not like the idea of making it easier for land-bound nations to invade water provinces. As it stands now, I think there is a pretty good balance between land and water nations while still keeping them rather different in style and options. Making it easier for land nations to invade the water and provide water nations with better recruiting abilities on land would just make them more similar to each other.

Consider also that maps in general have more land than water provinces. In EA and MA there are 3 full-fledged water nations that compete under the waves and even in a game where only one of them is present there are undead and amphibian troops to contend with, not to mention that you do not win by just owning the water. And on land they are at a disadvantage. In LA, R´lyeh is the only nation that starts in the water, but Atlantis is still around and still a full-fledged water nation, Mictlan has some rather beefy amphibian units, Patala's Nagas are something to ignore at your own peril and there is death magic practically everywhere, so more or less everyone can just send wave after wave of undead.

Also, at construction 2 you can get thugs in the water and from construction 4 you can bring troops as well.


Regarding acid:

I think especially EA Atlantis is a great acid nation. All Basalt Kings and half the Mages of the Deep can cast acid spells. Great, dark old beings rising from the sea, calling down acid from the skies and making the population kneel in the acidic sludge before their giant god of the deep is an image that would make Lovecraft proud.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Nice and reasonable analysis Amorphous. I must say I agree with almost everything.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Nagas are capital-only and not very good, so ignoring them shouldn't be too difficult, and wave after wave of mindless undead will die rather quickly when the Illithids Mind Burn can only target the non-mindless commanders. Once you have a small stronghold underwater, you can recruit aquatic units, but launching a straight land-to-water campaign is much harder than you imply and only possible for spesific nations, and far from easy even for them.


That IS nice. :up: :D
I agree with your other points.

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I have other ideas for Yomi, but they are a bit mechanics-heavy, meaning I must convince JK to make them, meaning he must shift focus from other projects. Thus I need to be quite clear on what I want. So for the time being I will work on coolifying Jomon. The coolifying is coming along quite nicely I'd say.

I have a dragon break, meaning I have quit drawing dragons for the time being. They need attack sprites, which is annoying since the originals took me quite some time to draw. Scaly bastards. I've moved to kami making. Jomon will have a nice number of sacred summons. Some shinto and some buddhist. Also there will be a couple of new monsters for Jomon, shinu and yomi. Some, like the shikome, will be restricted to yomi and possibly shinu I suspect.

Jomon will also recieve a couple of new recruits and some priestly spells if I can make mechanics out of some buddhist concepts.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I like the basalt king acid sludge image! :)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

It was not my intention to overstate the case and claim that it is easy for land nations to just switch to underwater combat on the level with water nations - sorry if it came off that way. The point I tried to make was rather that it is not that hard for land nations to descend into the seas.

Nagas, for example, may not be very good, but they are easily good enough to take underwater indies or provinces just defended by PD. And, as you said, once you have a water province you can start to expand using troops bought there. Since Nagas can be bought from turn one, ignoring them may lead to a rather nasty surprise later on.

As a general rule, land nations are the under-seadog beneath the waves, which means they should use a strategy appropriate to that - most probably raiding. Water nations cannot afford to let others have water provinces too long, or they risk the creation of another water power. And raiding with high taxes and pillaging is not fun for the target.

Specifically for LA R´lyeh, the nation needs expensive Illithids and/or mages to counter raiding. Keeping sufficient forces of these everywhere cost a lot - more than can usually be afforded.

Again, to be clear, I do not mean that it is easy for land nations to carve themselves a sizeable underwater empire, but for many it is relatively easy to be a bother to existing water empires. The same - even for LA R´lyeh - really applies to water nations trying to ascend to dry land. Late in the game this changes, but I think it does so for both parties, at least to some extent.

I cannot really claim any extensive knowledge of this game - what little MP I have played, have been with friends who, like me, probably are not very good. With that in mind, I still think that some of the complaints voiced here comes from less than well thought out strategies. Going into the seas is an investment for land nations that is initially expensive as is going on land for water nations. The difference is that when playing water nations, players tend to realize that they have to plan land campaigns well ahead, while in the case of land nations they do not do it to the same extent. I think you can get a good perspective on this through perusing the many strategy guides in this forum, while keeping the crossing of the water-border in mind. At least to my recollection, water nation guides more or less always include advise on how to get on land, while the converse is rarely true for land nations.

In my opinion it is hard for land nations to go up against water nations in the sea and it is hard for water nations to go up against land nations on land - and I like it that way.


Edit:

I like the treatment of lovecraftian themes in this game a lot.
In fact, while I like Dominions for a lot of things, I have to say that it was the excellent treatment of mythologies - historical and purely literary - in general that drew me to it in the first place. It is rare to see a sound collection of mythologies handled so successfully and respectfully. In my mind mythologies are foremost good old stories that have stood the test of time and deserve to be remembered, added to and viewed from new perspectives.

Going on will just be even more like a rant, so instead I will just say thank you for a great game.

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I am very appreciative of the fact that KO continues to update Dominions. But count me among the few that hate to see the super races nerfed. To me having a couple super races adds a sense of urgency to diplomacy in mp games.

The player who typically like to do his own thing starts out next to LA Ermor. He is basically forced to do some emergency diplomacy or he is likely to die. I think the previous Big Game benefitted from having LA Ermor and LA Ryleh in them. They were not excluded from Kingmaker because of their power, but because of their free spawns, and the unit cap.

But the other socalled super race was in Kingmaker and was either the 1st or second race eliminated from the game-Hinnom. Yes they were double teamed, but that is what mp is all about. It is rare in mp that you make it through a game and never see the short end of a double team.

My only caution is to nerf lightly. No need for overkill as none of these races are broken as they are.

If time permits, and it is thematic, I would like to see a few of the minor easy to implement suggestions for underpowered races added. Like a commander for LA Ulm that can lead undead. There were a couple of other minor tweaks for races that have been discussed over the last few months and i will not rehash them here.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I am partially buddhist so please treat us nicely mr KO :D

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I just don't see how R'lyeh can function in even the medium term with a much faster population crash. Unlike Ermor, they have to spend gold on their commanders (280 each for non-sacred Starspawn mages). Add to that, apparently their not-so-free-spawn cost upkeep. Played the normal way (awake Dom 10 god, building temples as fast as they can, etc.), they will quickly cripple themselves economically.

Heck, I'm in the mid-game as R'lyeh in an MP game right now, and as it is I haven't bought a new Starspawn or Illithid in at least a dozen turns, as already more than two thirds of my income is devoured by upkeep! If my population really started to die off, I'd be FUBAR.

Yeah, in my current game, I'm a dangerous faction. But as others have mentioned, this is where diplomacy comes into play - there's already a coalition built just to deal with me.

The point is, if R'lyeh's population dies a whole lot faster, it will require a completely different style of play. They can't just ignore it, and burn gems and the occasional lucky gold strike like Ermor. They'd have to play a lot like Mictlan (except with a lot less control, with no blood sacrifice available), restricting their crappy dominion to their capital and surrounding environment.

Outside of their lethal dominion, they'd have to play like MA R'lyeh, except they'd have to do it in whatever crummy enemy dominion they happened to be in. "Free Spawn" would become a totally minor part of their game plan - just something they scrape up from the 'dead-zone' that is their capital.

LA R'lyeh will have to 'nerf' it's own Dreamlands fun, just in order to fund it's own existence. So that would mean a lot less random void-beings, many fewer free cultist commanders, and a whole lot less INSANITY - all the things that make LA R'lyeh such a fun race to have in the game. Basically, it would wind up like a gimped MA R'lyeh.

Oh well, just my two bits. Maybe I'm only griping because I'm worrying that the next patch will totally kill me in my current game ;) I just wish there was another way of cutting LA R'lyeh down to size (that didn't involve cutting it's head clean off!).

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

less talk, more releasing of patches :p

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Well and that just won't do - and it's the crux of the war between balance and theme.

Honestly I think most people would agree that some sort of change would benefit the game as a whole, however it would be hard to get someone who has actually played R'lyeh, to not agree that insuring all freespawns are free of upkeep, must accompany a reduction in cash-flow.

Personally I think that doubling the popkill rate will be plenty of a balancing factor. At that point, it already becomes useless to try to use Growth to mitigate poploss and to "farm" your peasantry.

Any change that forces R'lyeh to limit Dom spread in order to maintain viability, will kill their ability to survive (the Temporal has a high Void resistance?). So ultimately, the mechanics need to work out so that R'lyeh can continue to function, while pushing their Dom outward. This means minimizing upkeep costs - or else there is no reason that they will not stagnate and wither away sooner than later.

Also, and probably too difficult to implement - it would likely help if normal "mortal" troop types simply stopped spawning altogether in any "barren" territories. Where are all of these Tritons coming from? No one lives there! :doh:

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I'd have thought the easy way to mitigate upkeep costs would be to keep sending your freespawn out to die in battle.

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Except when you completely rule the sea, there are no one to fight for those aqua-only mad tritons.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

To an extent, the popkilling is going to help kill off the awful gold draining freespawn, by starving them all to death. This is especially true of the aquatic ones.

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Too bad there are no hidden gold mines underwater to tax at 200%...

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Sombre has a good point.

Personally I think it would be more fun if R'lyeh's dominion would occasionally cause horrible creatures from the void to break loose and wreak havoc on their provinces, or assassinate commanders. Maybe generate horror attacks/marks. Their maximum number of candles could increase the chance of a random event happening, or just the chance of a random event being bad, say by 2% per candle. Or it could be a chance for an event completely seperate from luck events, to increase the chances of them happening.

I'm aware none of these will probably ever be implemented, they just seem like they could be a fun way to make life harder for R'lyeh :)

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> Also, and probably too difficult to implement - it would likely help if normal "mortal" troop types simply stopped spawning altogether in any "barren" territories. Where are all of these Tritons coming from? No one lives there!

But people ARE living there, they just don't do anything except dream and sleep and stuff.

Reductions or removal of upkeep on dreamers is not an unthematic solution to the problem. Then they still starve and the economy as a whole will suffer some, but the dreamers do not demand anything for their services. They just dream after all.

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KO,

Unusual time for you to be on the boards. No school today? Or do you transform into some sort of (more) hideous creature on Halloween? :)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I think it's actually KO's evil doppelganger posting. It only emerges on Samhain, and wreaks havok on dev schedules before disappearing for another year.

AFAIK KO only transforms on full moons - now if it were Halloween and a full moon there would be a really good reason to worry.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

There is a november break in sweden this week. I was in Stockholm on some curriculum development (or whatever it is called) monday and tuesday, but I'm free now. I'll probably work some more on Jomon today, but I have some other matters to attend to as well.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Google can be quite helpful in interpreting KO's updates. 10/29 saw:

"A guardian god or spirit of a particular place in the Shinto religion"

"The guardians of the shrine gates"


And:

"Best hibachi and sushi in Dallas"


Finally, someplace for all those gluttons to get good sushi.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

When can we expect the patch to be released? :)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Unfortunately rather soon. JK want's it to be finished, but I want to include more stuff. The Jomon fix is only half done, so Jomon will likely be split by two patches.

On the positive side that means the next patch will probably be quicker.

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Kristoffer, since you are answering questions: is there any chance of altering shift+z shortcut to work with all types of gems and not just blood slaves?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Any chance to see Muspelheim giants soon ? :D

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I was wonder if PageUp/PageDn/arrow keys will work on F1 screen and if it can remember its current position.

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What's unfortunate for you is fortunate for me. Hurry on :)

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Great news:) Finally we can see some buddhistic element in the east asia nations;)

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Annoyingly enough the buddhist elements will not appear in this patch, due to JK's haste :) I've started on some descriptions etc, but likely there will only be kami in this patch. My major Jomon fix will also have to wait. :(

On the nice side. 'Geocast'Â*now works, meaning you can only summon Yama-no-kami in mountain provinces. Hidden in sand can get a fix too I suppose.

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It's hard to feel sorry for you since the new patch adds such a cool feature, and JK's haste means that we'll get the feature sooner.

EDIT: never mind, Faery Trod already works as intended.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Now visible on the patch page: Version 3.21

And an extra fix to BEs as well.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Hi, I can't find the new patch 3.21. Is it out? When I go to the Dominions 3 page it shows 3.20 as the latest patch.:confused:

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Patch 3.21 is not out yet. Rather, these are upcoming changes that will be released with the next patch or two

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Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Odd numbered patches are "beta" patches, undergoing brief testing before the even numbered patch is released to us.

I can't remember the story of how we ended up getting 3.17, but the ill-fated performance fix pushed us to 3.2 from there.....

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Going from 3.17 to 3.20 had nothing to do with the performance boost fix that was reverted, because that concerned v3.17 only, as you can see from the progress page.

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A couple of things:

Re: Samurai Armor.. how bulky and encumbering it is depends entirely on what time period you're looking at. Early 'samurai' armor was full lamellar scale armor, adopted from Mongolian armor (this would be around 500 AD). Later samurai armor (such as used in the Warring States period and in almost all popular samurai drama) had a very different purpose. It has the famous paneled look because it tried to deflect projectiles rather than anything in melee. Presumably if you were fighting in melee, it was a test of skill rather than metallurgy. :p Thus, the primary factor in late period functional samurai armor was to leave the samurai mobile. Thus, it was incredibly light.

You could actually model this in Dominions with a low-prot armor that granted Air Shield.

As for the other Sinuyomijomon changes, very cool. KO, I volunteer my services for helping with fleshing them out. I note that almost all Buddhist elements in Jomon are esoteric. Are there any plans on importing the more popular Buddhist sects (like the Amida cult) into Dom3? I would think the Celebrant event could be modified quite well to show this, if nothing else.

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Hmm...Which element of Amida cult can be importing to a fantasy war game? there are neither monsters nor powerful mages. At best you can create some zealot for Daimyo era and a priest who can reduce unrest automatically for Shinu/Jomon and MA/LA TC:). But it's not very funny IMO.

Vajrayana is much easier to present in game because it has tons of demons and sprites and rituals. Many Buddhist in old times of Japan who believe in Amida believe in it too, and it's accepted by the emperor and most mongolese officers in Yuan dynasty of China. Anyway, too many tantric elements in LA nation may be inconsonant to the theme.

I think Zen masters with astral magic and clear mind(resistance to R'yleh's dominion) may be interesting. Making them first appear in MA TC(may be heretic) but stronger in LA TC and Jomon.

About samurai armor. IIRC the Yumi(Japanese bow) is among the worst bows of the world, With the length of English long bow(many of them are even longer than 200cm), they have unbelievable short range(70 meters). So no shield is needed in ancient Japan and the banboo armor "to deflect the arrow" is very simple and only used by lower class warrior. All Daimyos and generals weared heavy armor.

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zzcat: As I said, the Amida cult was the first really populist Buddhist sect in Japan. I contrast this to the earlier esoteric sects, of which the Onmyoji in Jomon is the best representative. As such, a 'flavoring' of the Celebrant event could be used to show this representation.

And the yumi was not a 'weak bow', at least the ones that the samurai used from horseback. After all, the samurai began as exactly the kind of mounted archer that dominated the medieval period in Asia. I am not sure exactly your source for your information, but it runs counter to everything I know about Japanese warfare.

I will point out as well that early Japanese warriors, proto-samurai if you will, did indeed use shields.

In the popular(ist?) version of samurai that has filtered to the west, samurai are foot soldiers, master of the katana, that disdained ranged combat. This does not exist until the middle Warring States period (1530 or so), and coincides with the rise of gunpowder technology in Japan. At this point, you might be correct, but everything said about arrows goes equally for guns: it is much easier to deflect than absorb, at least at the velocities and accuracy that early guns could achieve.

Before this time, though, the information is simply incorrect.

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I think you are talking about Mongol horsemen, not samurai:)

I tried to google some English infomation about Yumi just a minute ago. Thousands of webpages are found but few of them even mentioned the effective killing range of classic yumi. Most of them are talking about Kyudo and self perfecting, I think it's pointless for westerner to care about its practical performance:sick:.

Anyway, two webpages are found when I search "japanese bow+effective range"
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...amurai#Weapons
http://www.samurai-archives.com/ste.html
The first one said the yumi's effective range is 50 meters or less, and the second said it's only mere 30 meters.

In fact Japanese bow is still quite deadly at short range because japanese archers are very skilled at point-blank shooting and the heavy arrowhead can penetrate through some armor, but it depend on personal training, and point-blank shoot do little help in big battle.

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I don't have a problem with the changes in MP play. BUT... a lot of us play mostly SP and weakening or cutting back on the more stronger races DOES AFFECT play in SP. SP needs super races for us sp players to go up against. I know there will be those who disagree, BUT.. MP is not the only style gamers play.. SP must be taken into account as well and to weaken races in order to balance MP just unbalances SP to point its no longer fun to play.. Therefore, I would like to see the changes where MP is affected.. as an option leaving SP untouched or at least slightly modified. This way both MP and SP players could at least be pairable. You can't affect l without affecting the other... IMHO

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Well, another voice for this side of the coin. ;)

When most balancing is done through cost increases, I have 1 question, and an elegant solution.

First, do you already play with all AI on Impossible?

If not, then you can already rebalance cost increases by increasing difficulty. If you do play exclusively on Impossible, then I would think that the best solution overall would be to allow MP balancing to continue to take place largely through cost changes in units, but to ask for another difficulty level to be implemented. Of all of the changes that are requested for the game, adding another step to the difficulty scale should be utterly trivial.

Though, I would hope that even a minuscule amount of AI direction as to gem searching and gem use, would go a LONG way to making the computer more fearsome. For example, if they got some sort of mild, free, Arcane Probing effect in their dominion (not the mage hunting part, just the site finding part), it would automate their site searching in a way that they could compete in gem income more readily, and actually cast more globals/rituals.

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(ignore this post)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

As to the yumi debate. I went and looked up longbows and got a hit from wikipedia with ranges to compare against the Yumi.

Now, the bottom site you listed stated that the Yumi has a "killing range" of 30 meters, and a maximum range of 380 meters. Comparing this to what wikipedia has to say, a 160-180 lb english longbow had a range between 165 and 228 meters, and that "An archer could hit a person at 165 m (180 yards) "part of the time" and could always hit an army." (not cited). Someone with a Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot an arrow as far as 328 meters(cited). The article also states "The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Modern champion archers maintain that a hit cannot be guaranteed on an individual target at more than 75 m (80 yards) with any bow whatsoever." (not cited)

Though a lot of that information is uncited, even the highest figure for the longbow is lower than that of the yumi, and that one is cited.

Also what must be considered is what is actually meant in the teppou article by "killing range". This sounds like an incredibly useless sort of figure to me. Is it the range at which an archer is considered more than likely to kill the enemy? Is it the range at which an archer is more than likely to hit an enemy with a shot that will disable them? Is it the range at which they are more than likely to penetrate the opponents armor? Hit them? To me it sounds most likely to be the first option. An effective range of 50 meters as is stated in the other article you linked is believable for shooting directly at a target rather than volleying. Personally, I struggle to land arrows accurately at 40 meters with a modern compound bow, but I am a terrible archer and have not spent a lifetime learning how to shoot.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

"effective killing range" just means "effective range". That is the range you may really do some serious damage with the bow. Refering to "The Evolution Of Weapons And Warfare"(T.N.Dupuy, 1986), English longbow has an effective range about 250 yards. Others have their estimation between 180 and 250.

Again, the accuracy of point-blank shooting does little in a battle. volleying rain of arrows to an army is the only thing to do in most of the time. Anyway, as we know, the standard distance between the mato and the archer is only 28 meters.

I think it's not polite to discuss OT content in this thread. Perhaps we should stop here or move to other place:).

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Maybe I don't play enough early-age games, but my most recent view of Yomi makes me believe that they can be extremely competitive as-is. My personal feeling is that a few elements within the faction overshadow the multitude of weapons and tactics they have at their disposal. The first being the Dia Oni's physical chassis and the other being throw flames.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

This shows that you don't know the origins of the samurai. As I state above, Samurai began as _exactly_ the mounted archer that Mongol horsemen were. After all, the actual _training_ of the samurai was known as the 'Way of Horse and Bow'. Note what is present in that, and what is missing.

If you think of a samurai as a dismounted warrior wielding the katana, you are thinking of someone that only existed from the middle of the 1500s on. Samurai certainly existed in Japan for 500 years before that, and it is arguable for how long before that 'proto-samurai' existed (at least 200 years, in some people's estimate).

Please try to refer to the period when you say the word 'samurai', because it makes a very large difference. At different times, they were horse archers (before ~1530), highly pragmatic elite dismounted swordsmen (~1530-1600), and highly idealistic administrators (1600-1868).

If you would like to read a good book on the history of the samurai, you can check out Farris's Heavenly Warriors.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

No, there are a dozen races I can win with, but Yomi has too many weakneses. If you don't even script the flame throwing yomis - they *won't*. Aka, I've seen them just close to combat without tossing flames- on more than one occassion. Really pathetic.

Kristoffer tried yomi, I think to get a feel of how bad they were, and had his clock cleaned - like immediately.

Yomi just needs a few tweaks - and it could be a fun and interesting race... Why do yomi ghosts *not* need undead leadership by the way....

One of the niggling little annoyances - now I readily agree you can't impose that on the nation - but I do think demon priests should be undead.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Whenever I've played Yomi I never have issues with them not throwing flames. The thing is though that their precision is so abysmal that the Ao Onis tend to be better, because their cold attack is melee. Plus they're cheaper, for about the same stats IIRC. The demon priest is supposed to be a priest FOR the demons, not a demon himself.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I understand, I've heard the arguments before. Bless me father <crunch> My that was a pleasant lunch.

My point I was trying to make is that usually ghosts require undead leadership or they go poof. I haven't observed that behaviour in onis.

And you can't really put it on them, as it would be a significant weakness.