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I am surprised that the word "Armageddon" hasn't been referenced in the media (yet). But I did read this in the paper today next to a picture of the skeleton of the WTC.
"And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas alas, that great city where (we) were made rich ... for in one hour is she made desolate" - Revelation 18:19 Probably just media sensasionalism... but if you believe in God and the Bible, you can't help but wonder if we are living in the times as described in Revelation. |
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Geo is right. its not that we didnt see this coming, its that you cant do things to prevent this. what, eliminate airspace over cities? right. institute extremeist security policies at airports? thats giving into terrorism. my biggest complaint is 'why the heck dont we have an armed skycop on every single plane?' oooh, it costs money, and theres some sort of money shortage in America? give me a break! tightwads.
and you want SAM sites around the capitol? you dont think we have them? you dont think we have them in New York City? what exactly do you want them to do? shoot down every airliner not on a preapproved flight plan? thats really brilliant. It like the bombing of the USS Cole, its not that our port security sucks. we have guys patroling the deck with sidearms when the boat is at port. BUT, when its at a FRIENDLY port, those guns are UNLOADED because the risk of causing a political incident outweighs the risk to the boat. sam sites.. sheesh. that would make it safer to travel http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
Geo is right. its not that we didnt see this coming, its that you cant do things to prevent this. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Democracy's greatest strength is our individual rights, which turns out to be our biggest weakness against those who wish to harm us. |
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<lol> Alpha, I think that a Palestinian would point at the thousands of their dead and maimed who were shot with American bullets during any argument about moral culpability, but I digress. . .
We have been hounding Bin Ladin, but he's like Batman. . . he's rich, extraordinarily intelligent, and well-connected politically. The guy has a finger in a lotta people's plots, and he was given sanctuary by the Taliban precisely because he's a dangerous man. I'm sure one or several of the factions there thought that having him around would discourage other nations from butting into their private civil war http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif Anyhow, I feel sorry for the Afgani people, because they're likely to get bombed again, and this time by their former allies. They have had the worst luck in the world, set as they are between the grumbling giant of Russia, the plots and terror of Iran, and the squabbles between India and Pakistan. The land is some of the most barren on Earth, and the people are extremely poor. . . the only things they own that are generally worth much are weapons and goats- see map at http://education.yahoo.com/reference...ok/af/map.html To sum up. . . the Taliban continue to deny his culpability in this horrific crime, and no one has had the balls to step forward and claim it. Whenever I think seriously about the worst-case scenarios that could come out of this. . . I think about a terrorist cell whose members have been briefed to perform this one task. . . and then the other cells disappear into thin air. If we cannot establish a real tie to a real group, we'll probably make one up :P So. . . we have long wait ahead of us, folks. I think that whatever's coming next, whether it's a declaration of war on a sovereign state, diplomacy or sanctions. . . it will not occur for at least 2 months, and probably longer. |
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I do agree that those responsible, and terrorists everywhere, need to be punished and prevented from ever hurting us again.
As far as preventing goes... At the risk of exposing my ignorance, how possible is it for there to be some sort of remote control system that could take over the controls of an airliner if it deviated too far from it's flight plan and didn't respond to radio communication? I'm envisioning something much like a flight simulator that they use to train pilots. In the event of an emergency, the remote control module at the nearest airport would over-ride the plane's controls, and pilots on the ground would land the jet safely. As far as I am aware, the technology is there. Of course, I'm just an average joe, there may be reasons why this isn't possible. Maybe I live too much in a fantasy world, but I'm a firm believer in technology as a deterrent to crime. I agree with Puke that money should be no object. What is money compared to human lives? I'd like to see armed skycops on every flight too. Sorry if I have offended anyone, or wind up offending anyone now. That's not my heart. Like everyone else in the nation, I'm still in shock right now. Solar |
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Maybe airliner pilots should be locked in their (bullet-proof) cabin at the airport, and not allowed out until they land. Terrorists would need explosives to gain access to the controls. (As part of our continuing efforts to "establish dialogue" with disaffected Groups, run-of-the-mill hijackers could still communicate demands via the intercom.)
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Solar: It sounds like a nice idea, but it's impractical and downright dangerous. The second you take control away from the pilot in an emergency situation and hand it over to a computer, you've more than likely doomed them all. And it would make terrorism even easier. Terrorists wouldn't need suicide squads to hijack a plane a slam it into a target, they could just take control from a distance and do the same thing while sipping an mocha latte. Set up an alarm system, perhaps, if pilots don't enter a specific code every so often, or fail some other check-in requirement. And without the code, the plane sends out a distress call and locks itself at a specific altitude until the disarm code is entered (essentially giving it the all clear). That way control remains in the hands of the pilot, not the terrorists or a computer. And so long as the controls are locked, the terrorists wouldn't be able to pull off anything like they did yesterday.
Also, sealing the cockpit from the rest of the plane might help, but what about putting canisters of knockout gas into the ventilation systems? Something colorless and odorless, that would knock out the terrorists (and the passengers) while the pilots make an emergency landing at the nearest airport where police would be waiting to pick up the KO'd terrorists. No fuss, no muss, so long as the cockpit is seperated by an airtight seal, that is. |
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Aircops aren't a viable deterant to what happened yesterday.
Put aside for the moment that bullets and pressurized aircraft cabins don't exactly mix. There is a reason they call it "explosive decompression" afterall. Why do you think the terroists used knives instead of guns? I can tell you it wasn't because guns are harder to get past airport security, because they aren't. They couldn't risk having a firefight bring down a plane without accomplishing their mission first. Now you could have aircops armed with mace and tazers I suppose. But one aircop isn't going to stop a team of hijackers except in the movies. So unless you wan't to have a dozen aircops on every airplane, forget that idea. Sleeping gas is an intriguing idea. But the risk of an accident where the crew is incapacitated along with the passengers is kind of overwhelming no? Geoschmo |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
I can't help but rebut some comments posted here. Here goes: ... <snip> ... 5) To say that Islam is really a nice, sweet religion is pure BS. Maybe this is true of most Muslims in the West, but it certainly isn't true worldwide. Fact: there is not one Muslim country in the whole world that has real freedom of religion. Even in relatively progressive Muslim countries like Egypt or Saudi Arabia, Muslims who convert to other religions are routinely murdered and the government does nothing. Maybe the majority of Muslims in those countries don't condone that behavior, but they don't stop it either. Their reaction is never more than "tsk tsk" and a slap on the wrist. The Islamics worldwide who hate America don't hate us because of our wealth or our power -- they hate us for the same reason that they hate the Israelis: because we are not Muslims, plain and simple!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, and how is this different from assorted Christians in the not-very-distant past hating everyone who wasn't a Christian? And specifically the exact same narrow denomination of Christian as themselves... Until the 18th Century there was not one 'Christian' country that allowed freedom of religion. You were either a member of the state denomination of Christianity or you were murdered in a public ceremony to scare everyone else into submission. It took a long time for any degree of tolerance to emerge. Meanwhile there were authorized conquerers chanting about 'Christianizing the heathens' while slaughtering, raping, and pillaging the people of the 'new' world. Hardly any less horrible than the Muslim "Jihads"... Both of the "Monotheist" religions claiming to derive from Judaism are responsible for an incredible catalog of crimes, too many to even begin to list, many of which would qualify for the labels 'crimes against humanity' and/or 'genocide' today. Yet, there have also been both 'Christians' and 'Muslims' through history who actually read their scriptures and recognized that their religion said things like 'do not kill'. Islam may not be a "nice, sweet" religion but it's no more responsible for lunatics who use it to justify their lunacy than Christianity is to blame for the brutal conquest of the Americas or thousands of other crimes committed by criminals trying to use it as justification. Cultures have phases of development, much like people. Just think of Muslims today as Medieval Christians and you'll see there's no real difference between the religions. |
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knockout gas? why not happy gas? let us all get high on our flights, and i bet people would not hate flying as much. locking the cockpit aint a bad idea, but where would they pee? airlines ARE cheap, and another bathroom is probably a bit much to ask.
as for explosive decompression, its only explosive when you have gaping holes ripped into the plane. and low calibur sidearms, especially with frangible or hollowpoint rounds, would probably be stopped by the fusealage. tazers, shock batons, KO gas (even in a canister delivered by the skycop) or gel rounds would be perfectly effective. I would stand by bullets tho, they have a long track record for getting the job done, and sometimes the risks are sufficient to mandate their use. hell, i dont care if he only has an expandable ASP baton, just having the guy on the plane would be an effective measure. its called a deturant force, it does not matter if he is passenger 47 or not, as long as he is one more obsticle that potential hijackers would have to deal with. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
I can't help but rebut some comments posted here. Here goes: 1) Israel's military occupation of the West Bank began after they defeated a bunch of enemies, INCLUDING THE PALESTINIANS, who tried to push them into the sea. Question for all you SEIV players: What do you do with a defeated enemy? Give him all his planets back, and no apology necessary? 2) This occupation has not been brutal, as alleged on this forum. In fact, the West Bank has seen unprecedented prosperity over the Last 34 years. The West Bank Palestinians are much wealthier than the Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians. And it wouldn't have gone on for 34 years if the PLO and other Palestinian Groups had not made it their mission to destroy Israel. 3) To compare the "intifada" casualties to the recent US deaths is pure BS. First, most of the intifada deaths either occurred during a riot or were assassinations of known terrorists (or harborers of terrorists). Innocent civilian deaths, although certainly tragic, have been a small minority. Second, the numbers of intifada deaths, innocent or otherwise, do not approach 30,000, not even after 34 years of supposedly brutal military occupation. 4) To compare the economic casualties of the intifada to the recent US destruction is pure BS. The whole West Bank isn't worth one World Trade Center tower. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now, to deal with your other comments (though this will appear before the comment on your final remark...) You first four points actually are one single point. And not a pleasant one. Actually, Israeli occupation begins in 1948. They NEVER HAD ANY RIGHT to the land to begin with. It's been one long invasion, just like the creation of the United States from the 'new' world, that just happened to have several million inconveniant natives. Do you challenge the historical record that the Palestinians had been living there for centuries? Or are they the wrong color to have rights to land they've occupied for centuries? They were trying to 'push them into the sea' because they CAME FROM THE SEA. They were invaders. The SE IV analogy is just as relevant on the other foot. How do you deal with an invader? Give him your territory with a smile and wander off to die? Or fight back? The small technical differences between the Israeli occupation and some other historical parallels, that the Palestinians have not been slaughtered en masse but piecemeal, or that the people who are courageous enough to resist openly are more likely to get shot hardly makes it morally right. Living in this media-saturated age, they know they can't get away with open mass-murder. If not for the ubiquity of cameras, I have little doubt they'd find ways to reduce the population of Palestinians more quickly. But you really betray the vulgar American mindset that makes people angry by your final comment. The 'value' of the West Bank is irrelevant. These people want the right to live their own lives, with self-determination and dignity, not performing menial labor for Israelis at pittance wages when their mood is good, and cowering in the ramshackle homes their wages can buy when their mood is bad. Human dignity is not about money, and having a lot of it doesn't make a stupid dork a better human being. Both Israelis and Americans are unable to deal effectively with the Arabs (of which the Palestinians are just one sub-division) precisely because they cannot think of them as anything but grubby primitives who don't know their place. Until this attitude changes, both nations are going to continue to have problems like the intifada and the WTC event. Not that such behavior is "justifiable" but it is pretty much inevitable when you oppress people that some of them will snap and start doing crazy things. Unfortunately, as usually happens with violence, the propogation is mostly random. The 'revenge' of some twisted true believer will end up hitting other innocents rather than the actual oppressor. The thousands of office workers in the WTC are hardly responsible for US foreign policy supporting Israeli conquest. I can only hope that the US does not continue the cycle, but takes considerable care to properly identify the individuals behind this WTC attack and acts intelligently to punish only those individuals. [This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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Quick PBW note: PBW games have been set to turn over only after all turns have been uploaded, in case any players are unavailable. Also, the PBW front page has some links that may be useful in this time of crisis... although those same links are pretty much everywhere now.
LL |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
as for explosive decompression, its only explosive when you have gaping holes ripped into the plane. and low calibur sidearms, especially with frangible or hollowpoint rounds, would probably be stopped by the fusealage. tazers, shock batons, KO gas (even in a canister delivered by the skycop) or gel rounds would be perfectly effective. I would stand by bullets tho, they have a long track record for getting the job done, and sometimes the risks are sufficient to mandate their use.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dude, the reason they call it "explosive" decompression is that the hole starts out small, and gets bigger, real fast. And even low velocity rounds will penetrate an airplanes fusealage. Commercial aircraft fuselages are designed with the least amount and lightest material available. It's not exactly reynolds wrap or anything, but is itn't much better. They aren't designed to stop bullets. A bullet that can't puncture an aircraft fuselage would break your skin to be sure, but it isn't going to have any stopping power against a person detemined to cause you bodily harm. And even if you had the "magic bullet" that kills people and won't punch holes in the side of the plane, you haven't answered how one guy is going to stop a team of terrorists. On at least one of the planes hijacked yesterday, the flight crew kept the cockpit locked, but opened it up when the terrorists started hurting stewardesses and passengers. What's to stop a aircop from succumbing to the same demand? It's just not a workable solution. Sorry. That's why they stopped doing it, as much as the money reasons. Skycops are just not an effective deterant against this kind of terrorism. They may make the passengers feel safer, but they don't actually make them safer. Geoschmo [This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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no. it might be explosive as you describe on a space shuttle, but there is not enough of a pressure differential on a commercial flight to rend the plane appart. the times where there have been problems is when something has taken a chunk out of the plane and the wind sheer has torn it appart. even if bullets are not used, there are plenty of non lethal methods a skycop could use, and even if he is not a superhero, the presence of one would help to discourage would be terrorists. sure they might give into the same pressures that caused the pilots to unlock the door, but its better than nothing. I think having a guy with a gas canister is the best idea anyone has had.
sufice to say, we dont have those now, and nothing we come up with is going to save the dead folks on those four airplanes. now is the time for us to become the pig of a nation that everyone hates us for. to help the political parties that we favor at the moment overthrow those that are currently inconvinent to us. now is when we should be working to dismantle ideologies that work against our best interests, and to setup new puppet governments that will hopefully serve us better than the Last batch. no matter how many kinder more sensitive advocates for individual rights chime up about basic human values, thats what we are going to do, and keep doing. America is an Empire, and so are all of our NATO allies. people only point to us in distaste because they dont like looking at themselves. |
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Solutions to problems with the sleeping gas problem:
-ensure that the essential crew, pilots, co-pilots, navigators, all have an independant air supply in the case of an emergency. Even their drop-down oxygen masks could be modified for the job. -give pilots catheder bags. I think there's a john near the cockpit anyway. You could seal off everything after that. -if for some reason the pilots are incapacitated as well, use the regular update code I mentioned earlier. If the pilots get knocked out, autopilots take over and level the plane out and keep it locked at a specific "safe" altitude. |
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I am just back from one of the most frustrating days of work.
I almost lost it today. All I heard was this country should pay. Bomb the F*&^ers back to the stone age. Bah Bah Bah. Damn Stupid Ignorant People. I walked up to one guy and told him that I resented what he was saying. First words were "You ******* have some Respect." I then told him that as being an Irish Man I resented this Racial Sterotyping. I asked him if England had a right to carpet bomb Northern Ireland or Ireland after a car bomb. Know what the guy said. Well that's different. How I asked. He would not answer. That's too bad. I hope cooler heads prevail in this. Bombing a country and killing more innocent people is not the right answer. If I offended anyone with this post I am truely sorry. That was not the intent of this post. I am just a little angry and want to vent some steam. And I trust the people in this forum to take it in stride. If you feel I was wrong doing what I did today. That is ok. I understand. But I hope you understand why I did it as well. May this post find you in good health and improving spirits. ------------------ L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+ |
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Tesco, I dare say cooler heads will prevail on the large scale. People like the ******* you spoke to rarely have any more political/military power than being a low-grade NCO or a police lieutenant.
Unfortunately, that sort of person may go around shooting up mosques, as has now happened at least once. I merely hope that the police and the justice system treat these people as exactly what they are--common criminals--rather than turning the other way while it happens. LL |
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Tesco: I agree with you. Frankly, I'm saddened by all the people I know who are saying "bomb the ****ing ****wits."
It really is not a bright moment for the world. |
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it's scary seeing the world change. and it did change. Only time will show if it will get better or worse. Take care everyone.
I am off to have a pint with my dad and talk about our hero's ( Soccer, football hockey and movies) maybe with a little more vigor than usual. But it will be a good distraction. Talk to you all tomorrow. ------------------ L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+ |
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The world did change yesterday - and I think we can safely say that the view of the world changed for the average American, and not for the better.
There cannot and never will be justice derived from "getting" the terrorists who killed apparently thousands of people in the attacks yesterday. Putting these people on trial, in Jail, killing them, or bombing the host countries into the stone age will never bring justice- for there is no Justice in war. It is unfortunate that in the coming days people who are just as innocent as those killed in NYC will most likely be killed in some country across the world. It is a sad day for all of humanity. What happen to our country yesterday is unacceptable and right or wrong , vengence will be visited on the perpertrators and their host countries. I grieve for all those who have died and will die in the coming days and months. In my entire 36 years of life I have never seen my fellow Americans so enraged. I have seen people waving flags on overpasses, flags going up at homes, men and women crying silently in anger and I am watching the shock of yesterday turn to a simmering rage, much like what you hear happened in the USA after Pearl Harbor. These terrorist have awakened a sleeping giant, the American population, and they have made a terrible miscalculation. When will people learn that nothing changes because of these acts of violence visited on innocents, they only intensify the issues at hand. . . Some have compared yesterday to Pearl Harbor - I say its worse. Pearl Harbor was horrible - but it was an attack on military targets by an enemy with a face. Yesterday was an act of violence by worthless cowardly people- who have visited destruction on our neighbors, friends, Moms, Dads, Brothers and sisters. The people who committed these acts are people who are so small that they cannot think for themselves, Instead they are manipulated by individuals who themselves sit in the shadows, in the comfort and safety of their homes while these poor misguided souls do their dirty work for them. God help us all in the coming weeks. My thoughts prayers go out to the people of NYC and Washington DC. [This message has been edited by AJC (edited 13 September 2001).] |
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NATO today has, the first time ever in its history, declared the invoking of Article V of the NATO charter, the mutual defence situation.
This declares an attack on any member of the alliance is to be considered an attack on all of them. All NATO armed forces were set to a high state of alert. Europe now stands shoulder to shoulder with its United States friends and allies. We in germany are deeply shocked, but dedicated to support the United States with all actions they will take, be it political, diplomatic or military actions. This state of mind applies to all other NATO and EU members. We mourn for the innocent victims in NYC and Washington, that were hit by an unprecedented act of murder. Take care you all! Fred Germany |
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Well my world view changed on tuesday I can tell you. I'm British, and I watched the developing massacre live on BBC, and besides offering my sympathy and best regards to anyone who lost friends and family in those outrages, I am now seriously wondering exactly where our civilisation goes from here.
Is the USA military actually capable of delivering any sort of proportionate justice for this? I mean, 20-30 terrorists in exchange for tens of thousands of innocents -how do you punish that and answer the need for vengeance that will burn in millions of breasts across America and the West? With a few missiles and ineffective airstrikes? I don't think so. It really does need the "war" that bush and his advisors are talking about, but that really will shake the world order and take tremendous guts and resolve to make it happen - I hope it does. Prior to tuesday I was quietly opposed to the private ownership of handguns and civilian gun proliferation .... now, well frankly, I feel that if anyone is going to wield weapons in sensitive environments it ought to be ordinary people not the crazies and fanatics. I find it absolutely heartbreaking to think of the passengers on those airliners rendered helpless by a rabble of fanatics with knives and cardboard-cutters. Frankly, let reservists and civil authorities carry guns on airplanes from here on in ... If this "war" on terrorism is to be won then the ordinary guy on the street needs the tools to fight back. And this from a British liberal ... Well, I'm with you guys ... |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I asked him if England had a right to carpet bomb Northern Ireland or Ireland after a car bomb.
Know what the guy said. Well that's different. How I asked. He would not answer. That's too bad. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can give you hundreds of reasons why this is different. In the next few days and weeks I will be able to give you thousands, God forbid possibly tens of thousands of reasons why this is different. This is not a simple act of terroism. This is not a lunatic car bomb in market in Dublin. This is not a lunatic with dynamite strapped to his body blowing up a bus in Tele Viv. This is not a lunatic with a machine gun in Gaza. This is not a lunatic with a truck full of fertalizer in Oklahoma City. This was a well planed, well financed, well thought out attack. It is not simply sabre rattling to say this is an act of war. It's a different kind of war to be sure, but it is a war nonetheless. If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions. Random bombing, no. But if it takes carpet bombing, if it takes battalions of soldiers, if it takes many mnay deaths, even the deaths of US soldiers, this cannot be allowed to stand. The only way to prevent these acts is to make those responisble, even indirectly pay such a high price for their actions that others in the future will see the futility of these kinds of things. Geoschmo |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mordante:
Well my world view changed on tuesday I can tell you. I'm British, and I watched the developing massacre live on BBC, and besides offering my sympathy and best regards to anyone who lost friends and family in those outrages, I am now seriously wondering exactly where our civilisation goes from here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe not THAT much of a change in worldview. I seem to recall a decade or so ago, when plane and ship (remember the Achille Lauro?) hijackings were much more common and certain factions significantly more active -- the Abu Nidal group, Baeder-Meinhof (sp? Also known as Red Army Faction, IIRC), and others -- it was common practice for hijackers to demand passports, to allow them to single out Americans. Some of these people have been pissed off at the United States for a long, long time, and perhaps with the Cold War over there are fewer barracks (in, say, Beirut) providing convenient targets. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[/b] Is the USA military actually capable of delivering any sort of proportionate justice for this? I mean, 20-30 terrorists in exchange for tens of thousands of innocents -how do you punish that and answer the need for vengeance that will burn in millions of breasts across America and the West? [/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You don't, really. You do, however, significantly boost HUMINT (human intelligence. It's broadly accepted, IIRC, that the US pays too much attention to ELINT/SIGINT (electronic / signals), and relies too much on its satellites and other technology, and far too little to human assets. The KGB was far better than its Western counterparts, albeit it was working with a far easier target -- an open society. We also, hopefully, actually notice that airport security has been woefully pathetic in the United States. As recent as two weeks ago, airlines were still providing metal cutlery, for instance. A butter knife may not be serrated, but it's sure going to hurt jammed into somebody's jugular. And I've even had a laptop unquestioned, on a flight to Egypt no less. The 4-inch rule for knives, which I didn't know about (my SAK -- a Ranger model, something like an 85mm non-locking blade IIRC -- always went in my checked-in luggage), doesn't seem terribly swift, either. I wouldn't relish being slashed with a 1-inch blade, let alone 4. We probably pay much more attention to finding drugs than weaponry, which is remarkably complacent. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> With a few missiles and ineffective airstrikes? I don't think so. It really does need the "war" that bush and his advisors are talking about, but that really will shake the world order and take tremendous guts and resolve to make it happen - I hope it does. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this may turn into a long-term conflict. Actually, it's *been* a long-term conflict, since we've been aiding other nations against terrorists for a long time -- providing training, sharing intelligence data, and so forth. More important than missiles are developing human assets to provide a better probability of warning, although I'm not too optimistic about the possibility of infiltrating fanatical Groups... assuming that most remaining Groups are not run by fools (and, to have survived this long, they probably are not) they are going to be careful about giving out operational details (IOW, compartmentalization) or even accepting people without having established clear bona fides. Even if bin Laden showed up and publicly blew himself up in Times Square, it would not end there, anymore than the suicide bombings in Israel stopped after the Israelis managed to nab the one dubbed "the Engineer". Security is always an on-going process, and one in which an open society will necessarily have great difficulty. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Prior to tuesday I was quietly opposed to the private ownership of handguns and civilian gun proliferation .... now, well frankly, I feel that if anyone is going to wield weapons in sensitive environments it ought to be ordinary people not the crazies and fanatics. I find it absolutely heartbreaking to think of the passengers on those airliners rendered helpless by a rabble of fanatics with knives and cardboard-cutters. Frankly, let reservists and civil authorities carry guns on airplanes from here on in ... If this "war" on terrorism is to be won then the ordinary guy on the street needs the tools to fight back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They'd better have special ammo loads, then. I'm also not particularly thrilled at the idea of untrained "ordinary guys", incredibly paranoid (trivia: a local radio station reported that gun sales were up 15-30% at various gun stores nearby), packing heat in such an unfavorable area -- a narrowly confined region with plenty of innocent civillians, and unusually high potential negative consequences for stray shots. And I'm not even a Sikh (IIRC, they carry knives for religious reasons, and to an ignorant paranoid, might be mistaken for an Arab, headgear and all). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> And this from a British liberal ... Well, I'm with you guys ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ -- The thing that goes bump in the night |
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Don't know if anyone else saw this but it was reported on the DC Comics posting Boards with a link. There was a t-shirt place selling t-shirts with the logo 'I crashed into the world trade centre, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt'.....The poster on the comic board rallied people and soon hundreds were emailing in with their outrage at such a thing...The offending merchandise was removed....how anyone can take advantage of such a tragedy for profit is beyond me....The sad thing is in probally a year or two there will be a movie of the week or something.....
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now thats a big and dangerous statement. Did the nation that a) Trained and armed Iraqi soldiers b) Supported Soharto when he murdered a MILLION people in his military coup, stating that this would be great for the "global" economy c) Sent that ex-Panama dictator to military school ever take some responsibility for those nutters. I think not. So how do you think the innocents in those cases felt? I'm ashamed of my country's involvement in the original occupation of East Timor by Indonesia , and if some angry East Timorese blew up something in my city I'de be horrified, but I would understand where their anger came from (I wouldn't understand their anger, just where it came from). The US should be looking at its foreign policy, and its citizens should be asking their government "Why would people do this to us?". Thats how you fix the problem. Terrorism sux, but then all violence against innocents sux and is never justified. Askan |
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*APPLAUSE* I fully agree with what the Baron has just said. As for the "Nice, sweet religion" debate... well islam is and it isn't. Like Christianity, it depends entirely on your interpretation of the holy scriptures.
Just look up a few different Christian factions on the web for examples- one set of people will find lines in the bible that clearly condemn homosexuality as wrong and evil. Another will find something else which says that God loves gay people. Take your pick. The bible says whatever you want it to say, as does pretty much any religious document, I imagine. (I think the same applies to the american constitution, BTW) As an atheist I feel I can be fairly impartial here, and from where I'm standing, islam and christianity seem to be pretty much the same. What I mean is, they seem to produce the same kinds of people. We have a lot of muslims here in the UK and they are just regular people. Not bomb wielding fanatics, just normal people. A few interesting facts on Islam: - Islam is completely decentralised - there is no "Pope equivalent" or God-appointed hierarchy giving out orders to destroy western civilisation. The people who have issued Fatwas (ie against Salman Rushdie) were influential individuals, not religious leaders. Individual muslims are free to follow a Fatwa or ignore it. Muslim governments like the Taliban have no influence outside their own country and do NOT represent the muslim faith as a whole. No- one does. -Fatwa does *NOT* translate as "death sentence". Jihad does *NOT* translate as "holy war". - Christianity and islam are siblings, both offshoots of the Jewish faith. The difference is that muslims believe Mohammed was the Messiah and Christians think it was Jesus, about 1200 years earlier. Muslims still regard Jesus as an important prophet. (The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah...) - The koran (Qu'ran, whatever) advocates the peace and charity bit just as much as the bible ever did. All the "Thou shalt not kill" stuff is in there, and it is every Muslim's duty to give a certain percentage of their income to helping the less fortunate. On a different subject... I agree that it would be stupid putting guns on planes. There are alternatives though - Tasers are also a good idea, but a ranged weapon has obvious advantages. How about non-explosive guns (pneumatic/ catapult type weapons) firing tranquilisers? A crossbow even? As for tranquilising the entire plane in an emergency situation... the main drawback there is that the dosage required to knock out a large hijacker would probably be dangerous/ fatal for a child or a baby or a passenger on medication. I understand that the safety of the entire plane / people on the ground is at stake, but those reasons would probably be enough to prevent any airline from using that strategy. (After all, if the only people likely to survive a hijacking were fit, healthy adults then they would sell a lot less tickets.) 0.02 ------------------ SE4 Code: L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G- /SE4 Code Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code. |
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while civilians should probably be armed, and should be educated about the safe and effective use of arms before being allowed to have or bear arms, its probably a very BAD idea to arm civilians for any specific purpose. its probably a MORONIC idea to let them have such arms on a commercial airplane. primarily because people are recationary, tend to panic, and even when not in a fight or flight situation, most people are just plain DUMB.
subways are different tho. everyone should have a gun on the subway. maybe two or three. they should be in safe places though, because i can invision alot of firearms theft if they are somewhere easy to reach when you are elbow to elbow with a dozzen faceless people. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by askan:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by geoschmo: If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now thats a big and dangerous statement. Askan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Indeed. Wasn't it the US that created this monster Bin Laden in the first place? Back when he was fighting the Soviet empire it was allright for him to murder, he got CIA training and support to do so. Now that he has turned against the American empire, it is a different matter. America is indeed an empire, as Puke boldly states, and it IS imperialistic, in that it has dirtied it's hands in external affairs on numerous occasions. Askan's list is by no means complete. Besides actual dirty work there is huge pressure on nations to view and do things 'The American Way'. To you and me the frase 'The American way' sounds like a good thing but to many others it certainly does not. Many people bear a grudge against the US and it's supremacy. And 'resistance' has been going on for a long time. It just wasn't waged on American home soil and on such a scale. Now, I am not saying that America is reaping what it has sown but it is indeed a war. A war that, seen from the other's viewpoint, could be regarded as a freedom fight against American dominance and they fight it as any other group has done in history, when they were confronted by a military machine many times superior. One calls them guerilla's or maquis or partisans the other calls them terrorists, bandits, rebels. It is an age old dilemma and it is now America's turn to wonder how to deal with such an enemy. Do you use oppression(turn the state into a police state) , retaliate(against Afghanistan?), search and destroy? Very difficult indeed. Decisions not to be taken lightly. None of us want to live in a police state like the old Soviet Union or the Third Reich, with propaganda and security ensuring that everebody sees things the 'right way'. As for retaliation,Austria's decision to retaliate against Serbia, harbouring and supporting the assasins of their crown-prince, led to World War I. Please remember. Maybe search and destroy remains the best option.Although it does not give you immediate satisfaction for the grief and horror of the attack, it does reduce the risk of creating even more hate and killing the wrong people. my 2 cents, I guess. |
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QUOTE:
the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for d /QUOTE Is this really what you Americans believe? That the rest of the world owes you a favour because you (eventually) took part in the World Wars? You don't think 50 years of economic supremacy and the assimilation of half the planet into your mindset and culture is reward enough? Someone please tell me he's the only one... ------------------ SE4 Code: L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G- /SE4 Code Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
[quote]I beleive you are confusing Asami Bin Laden with the Afgan rebels. Bin Laden had nothing to do that I have ever heard with the Afgan strugle against the former Soviet occupation. Geoschmo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, I am not confused. Was afraid I was for a minute but here's a recent article on Bin Laden. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/214858.shtml And one from the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...095663,00.html [This message has been edited by Exculcator (edited 13 September 2001).] |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Exculcator:
Sorry, I am not confused. Was afraid I was for a minute but here's a recent article on Bin Laden.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I stand corrected. I was not aware of that. But it does not change the fact that he must be dealt with. If you own and raise a vicious dog, and one day the dog attacks and kill your children, then you in fact hold much of the ultimate responsibilty. But do you simply fall on the floor and wail "What have I done to my children?" or do you get your gun, and shoot the dog? I have no doubt that ultimatley this will have serious repurcussions within the our government and our intelligence agencies. I am sorry dogscoff if I have offended you. I am very angry. We are all very angry. But I am not the only American that feels this way. And many non-Americans feel this way as well. I cannot believe you would rather have lived these Last 50 years under the oppression of the Axis powers. Geoschmo |
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To all of you, especially those from other countries.
I appologize for allowing my anger and my fear for seeping into my Last few Posts. I know many of you live in coutries where these kinds of things are more expected. But the fact is that here, they are not. Or were not. We Americans have been changed in the Last few days. I hope for the better, but I do not know that for sure. Hopefully our leaders can remain calm in these trying times and only do what is right. I will try to keep my further Posts here limited to Space Empires. And I will try to get a hold of myself. Geoschmo |
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QUOTE:
I cannot believe you would rather have lived these Last 50 years under the oppression of the Axis powers. /QUOTE At least the trains would run on time... (Rather than crash into one another because the shareholders don't want to pay for safety technology) /JOKE Of course I wouldn't, but the US did not win the war on it's own. The European powers fought bravely and suffered hugely because they were defending their homelands. Credit to the US for coming all the way across the Atlantic to fight an enemy which wasn't a direct or immediate threat, but to take all the credit and say that the world owes you a debt of gratitude for that is absurd. US interests were served well enough by involvement in the European wars, and besides, what about the Canadians who also lost bomber crews and troops? What about the Australians? The Kiwis? I don't condone Tuesday's actions, of course I don't, but it's very easy for me to see how so much anti- US sentiment could exist. ------------------ SE4 Code: L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G- /SE4 Code Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
QUOTE: the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for d /QUOTE Is this really what you Americans believe? That the rest of the world owes you a favour because you (eventually) took part in the World Wars? You don't think 50 years of economic supremacy and the assimilation of half the planet into your mindset and culture is reward enough? Someone please tell me he's the only one... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We're not asking for a favor, we just don't like being kicked while we are down. It is not fun to have thousands of your people die and then have people give reasons for why we are so horrible that we shouldn't do anything about it. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
To all of you, especially those from other countries. I appologize for allowing my anger and my fear for seeping into my Last few Posts. I know many of you live in coutries where these kinds of things are more expected. But the fact is that here, they are not. Or were not. We Americans have been changed in the Last few days. I hope for the better, but I do not know that for sure. Hopefully our leaders can remain calm in these trying times and only do what is right. I will try to keep my further Posts here limited to Space Empires. And I will try to get a hold of myself. Geoschmo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Geo, You are not alone. I too am finding it difficult to deal with the current events. It is not the attack that hurts the most, but those who choose to take pot shots at us as we try to deal with this situation. (I'll probably draw some with this post, but I don't care anymore.) I think I will now drop this subject as well. I do not need any more heartburn in my life right at the moment. |
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OK, the meaning of my post has been misunderstood here. It's my own fault for addressing Geoshmoe's "another debt of gratitude" out of the context of his post.
QUOTE: have thousands of your people die and then have people give reasons for why we are so horrible that we shouldn't do anything about it. /QUOTE I never said we were doing you a favour and I nver said you shouldn't do something about terrorism. I was just reacting to Geoschmoe's comment about everyone owing the US a favour (Actually, he said "debt of gratitude". ~Same thing.) You're right, it doesn't matter where this guy came from, he can't be allowed to continue. (Assuming he actually did it, that is.) By all means defend yourselves, react or counter attack (sensibly) - we'll support you. However it's never enough *just* to react- you have to look at the reasons why it happened in the first place. I'm sorry for my comments if they have caused offence, particularly since you US ppl have plenty to deal with as it is right now. It's just that this has whole thing has stirred up a lot of US nationalism / patriotism / militarism / moralising, and for some reason that tends to get me into yank-bashing mode immediately. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Sorry. Take a look at my previous Posts on this thread, you'll see I'm not such a bad guy=-) *Dogscoff orders everyone a reconciliatory beer. ------------------ SE4 Code: L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G- /SE4 Code Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code. [This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 13 September 2001).] |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
*Dogscoff orders everyone a reconciliatory beer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'll drink to that. Askan |
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I'll take that beer Dogscoff. And I'll buy you one too. I have read back over my words, and they were too emptionally charged, and that is why I appologized.
It may in fact be that America owes the world an apology for making this mess by enabling these people to get to where they are today. And if that is the case we are reaping what we have sown. We may in fact owe the world an apology for delaying our entry into the two World Wars until American blood was shed. I heard an interview with Sen. Joe Biden Last night, who incidentally is my new hero, where he spoke very eloquently to this fact. I have to paraphrase cause I don't recall all the words, but basically it was to the effect that the American people didn't move when the entire British Army was floating in the Channel (I am assuming he is talking about Dunkirk), but when bombs fell on Pearl, we moved. I can tell you that personally I am unacustomed to being afraid. I am uncomfortable with the feeling. I don't know if this is an American thing, or just me personnaly. Tuesday I was afraid. Today I am angry. I live in Ohio. For those of you unfamilier with America this is geographically, and even culturally many miles from New York City. Before Tuesday, New York City often times felt like as much of a foreign city to me as London. Today I am a New Yorker. On Monday, and every day prior in my life I looked to the sky and felt safe. I felt that I was master of all that I surveyed. Of course I was naive, but that is how it was. Before Tuesday my greatest fear was that another American would kill me for the twenty dollars in my pocket. I never conceived of an attack from outside. Of course I was naive, but that is how it was. I will tell you something that was not reported on the national news. On Tuesday afternoon as the President returned to Washington, his plane flew over Ohio. Some fighters esscorting him broke the sound barrier. We were not warned that this might happen. At the time I was not aware what the noise was. I went outside and saw the contrails in a sky where the news had just told me there were no planes. And for a time I was frightened. My knees were were literally weak. I was not the master of all I surveyed. I am no longer naive. To those that wish to do us harm, and I do not believe anybody who visits this forum is one of those... If your goal was to make us afraid, you have suceeded. If you goal was to take away our naivete, you have succeded. If your goal was to make us angry, you have succeded. If your goal was to make us weak, you have failed. Geoschmo |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
I'm sorry for my comments if they have caused offence, particularly since you US ppl have plenty to deal with as it is right now. It's just that this has whole thing has stirred up a lot of US nationalism / patriotism / militarism / moralising, and for some reason that tends to get me into yank-bashing mode immediately. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Sorry. [/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Same here, sorry. And I certainly didn't mean that you have no right to do anything. Hell, go shoot that dog, geoschmo! Just wanted to say, be sure you shoot the right dog. Can I have my beer now please.. |
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QUOTE:
We may in fact owe the world an apology for delaying our entry into the two World Wars until American blood was shed. /QUOTE I for one am opposed to th whole "sins of the father" thing. Dunkirk and D-Day was well before I was born, and I think it is ridiculous for a nation or a people or a religion ar anything to apologise for something perpetrated by their predecessors. Hell, as an Englishman I'd be apologising for the rest of my life. Furthermore I'm not too big on nationalism either. You say that you hurt because your people died. I consider them my people as much as yours; as you said yourself, in today's world New York is as far from Ohio as London. ------------------ SE4 Code: L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G- /SE4 Code Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code. |
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Just another horrible effect of terrorism: it drives a wedge of fear and anger between people that are really on the same side. I, too, got caught up in emotions that made me lash out. For that, I apologize.
We need to unite to defeat these agents of terror. Then we need to unite to find fair solutions to the situations that they use as tools to inspire hatred in the people they use as pawns. The trouble is that those solutions are going to be tough to find. We are dealing with centuries of hatred. It's not localized in the Middle East, either. There's plenty of hatred going around in the Balkans, in Africa, in Ireland, and yes, in the United States (and probably everywhere else for that matter) to generate terrorism for a long time to come. Unfortunately, I don't know the answers. It's easy to point fingers to things that have happened in the past, and plenty of guilt to be shared. I have no delusions that the US is squeaky-clean, and there are plenty of others that can share blame as well. Somehow, we need to find answers, not point fingers. <Steps down from soap box> Well now, I wasn't expecting a speech when I decided to post an apology! Can't trust my own keyboard. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif |
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All thru history, one country or another has been labeled and trashed, England, Spain, Portugal, Russia, Germany, etc. Now its our turn in the US because we're considered on top. I can understand this, but sometimes it is hard to accept. Whenever there is a disaster the US is one of the first to send help, food, clothing, medicine, etc. We have lent or given money to many nations and Groups to help their people or nations and yet how many countries in the past have done the same to us when we had disasters, ie: Hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. Have we ever condemned them for not helping? Not that I'm aware of, however I have heard and seen other countries condemn us because we didn't send enough money or help when they were in need. This is what I meant when I stated I understand but that it is hard. Terroism is a world problem not any one countrys. Hopefully what happened here will show everyone that all countries need to close ranks and fight this wholesale murder of innocents no matter where it strikes. Yes the US was unprepared and naive that it could happen here, but once awaken, they don't forget and they will react. As Yamamoto once stated " I am afraid we have awaken a sleeping Giant". CNN has just stated that there were 2 day cares on the 32nd floor of both buildings and that all indications are that none of the children made it out. I guess its things like this that make us mad to the point of unreason, but how would anyone else feel? The world needs to eliminate the slaughter of innocents by terroism no matter who or where they are along with those who support, hide and give them aid. These are not soldiers fighting for a cause, They are just plain murderers, the WTC was not a military target it was just people, men, women and children and this more then anything else in my opinion is what makes this crime so hideous, it was done on purpose, not by mistake, it was intentinal not by accident. I consider everyone on this forum friends and I hope my opinion does not take away from that, I have lost brothers & sisters (not by blood) that I have never met who were killed trying to rescue and give aid at the WTC, over 259 listed so far, let alone all the civilians and maybe this hits me a little more then others I don't know, but I just had to get this off my chest, I've seen war both while in the military and on the streets here in the US, and unless you've been there its hard to express what you have seen and experienced to understand what I'm saying here. I thank all of you for letting me get this off my chest, it helps sometimes to be able to talk about things, it makes it easier to handle.. I apoligize to anyone I have offended, I don't mean to, it just that I feel that you are friends even tho we have never met. This is a sad day for the world not just the US. The terrosits have shown that a new weapon of mass destruction can be employed, and no one, anywhere, in any city or country is immune. Be careful and God Bless the US and every country in this world and prayers to the victims and their families.
just some ideas mac |
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Dogscoff, im probably one of the most imperialsitic, nationalistic bastards around here. And I dont think the world owes the States a debt of gratitude. I am perfictly happy that we have assimilated the majority of the free world into our cultural and political beliefs, like you say. I would like to have the other half, but I guess that I can wait untill we can exert our influence in another world crisis.
And when I say 'WE,' I dont just mean the States. I mean all of the other NATO countries that I look upon as brothers and equals, and I think share the same standards of living and cultural values, and political goals. we just happen to have more over here, right now. People forget that the US is not just one nation, it is a representation of a group of independant states. I look at the EU, and I see what I hope will grow into something similar in the next hundred years. Someday, we might have a central government between America and Europe. and its going to be based upon our shared values and beliefs. The western way of life that has so dominated the world. terrorists strike blindly at us because they fear us. there is nothing that they can do in the face of the allied western powers, and they are scared. scared that their way of life is ending. I saw a picture the other day, looking at the damage in NY from above. the picture was taken from the ISS Alpha. We have built a temple in the stars to our western gods, how can anyone in a poverty stricken country gripped by civil war and religious strife even comprehend a foe like us? Their way of life is ending, and as we look down upon them from the heavens, there is nothing they can do about it. I am truely sad for the crime that was committed against the US on Tuesday. But I pitty those helpless souls that we are about to destroy. even if they are spared our millitary retaliation, their way of life is not much longer for this world. |
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This is from an e-mail I sent a friend on the subject. Perhaps it can help a little here...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Here's my current stance on things: The attack was a horrible thing. To compare it to something else simply degrades both events (Pearl Harbor, JFK, Oklahoma City) but sometimes it's the only way to convey even a fraction of what's happened to someone who has no other point of reference. What happened was that there was a well-planned, well-executed, deliberate strike against the nation made by Terrorists. These people want to instill terror into us (meaning simply anyone who was affected, shocked, horrified by this event) and make us react to them. It's an old lesson with a new spin, make your enemy react instead of act, and you have won the battle. If we lash out blindly in anger, they've won. If we give in to hate, they've won. People died all this week because one vital thing was forgotten, we are all human. The terrorists on the planes were human. They might not have been good people, or likeable people, but they were still people. The people dancing in the streets in the middle east are still people. The people who died in the plane crashes are still people, not angels, saints, or demons. People. Humans. Able to make their own decisions and their own mistakes, they are still humans, even if we hate the results of those choices. The terrorists, the people dancing in the streets, they can't very well think of us as people. They've learned to hate us as enemies, as monsters. They're willing to kill other people who have done nothing to them at all, because they think that all of us are the same. They have forgotten that we are human, it's an easy thing to forget when all you have been taught is anger and hatred. The people who are attacking innocent Arab-Americans are humans as well. Humans blinded by anger, fear, hatred, and shock. They have forgotten that the people they are hurting are human as well. Just as America forgot during World War II that Japanese-Americans were human. The people who want to kill the terrorists and the people dancing in the streets have forgotten that those people are human as well. Will they feel better about killing the humans who danced in the streets? Would they dance in the streets if those people were dead? We can't just kill people for being happy, even if they are feeling happy about something which to us is tragic. They have forgotten we are human. We are the enemy to them. We need to prove to them that we are human, not just the enemy. The perpetrators of these actions should be brought to justice. Justice is not vengeance. It is not revenge. It is not slaughtering the people responsible in the most gruesome ways possible. It is not hate. Hate is what created this, and continuing to hate will simply drag it out for generations. I'm not saying we should love the people who did this, but we have to remember that they are still human, even if they don't. They want us to sink to their level, to forget that they are human and respond accordingly. If we forget that these people were human, they will be vindicated, and even more terrorists will spring up to replace those that we would kill. It's not a case of who did what first. That doesn't matter. The people that started this are long since dead, only leaving behind a few chapters in the history books. For all we know all this started when someone ate the Last candy apple at the party in the beginning of the universe. I can't answer for any raping and pillaging my Nordic ancestors might have done centuries ago, and I shouldn't have to. I can't answer for the Inquisition, or the Crusades, I can't answer for the actions of the Romans or the Gauls or the Celts. I can't speak for the Neolithic man who killed a bear to protect himself. How am I supposed to be responsible for the actions of my father or my father's father before I was born? No one should be expected to bear the weight of history on their shoulders, and to ask any one member of a nation to answer for that nation's actions is ludicrious. We have to past to reflect on, the present to act, and the future to dream. We can only affect the now. That's all we could ever do. And what might seem right to some people now could seem horrendous to our progeny in the future, when the future is now. But they can't change what happened, they can only learn and move on. It's time to learn that every person alive is a human being, not a monster, not a demon, not an angel, not a saint. Just something in between with the ability to make choices and decisions, both good and bad. If we lash out in anger, rage, fear, or terror, then the people who have died this week have been the winning blow for the terrorists that did this. We will have lost. It won't matter how many more die, the outcome has been decided, and well will be what it is that we claim so much to hate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Make of it what you will. |
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See this is why this forum is the #1 forum in the world. Look how we can express our anger and fears and lash out. Then through heated dicussion we stop, and release that we do not hate each other but respect each other.
I have turned to this forum to give me a little comfort, escape and hope. Thank you all. It is nice seeing people speak truefully with each other. It is nice seeing people showing respect to others. No crap, No bull. Just the heart and mind. ------------------ L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+ |
Re: War....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Actually, Israeli occupation begins in 1948. They NEVER HAD ANY RIGHT to the land to begin with. It's been one long invasion, just like the creation of the United States from the 'new' world, that just happened to have several million inconveniant natives. Do you challenge the historical record that the Palestinians had been living there for centuries? Or are they the wrong color to have rights to land they've occupied for centuries? They were trying to 'push them into the sea' because they CAME FROM THE SEA. They were invaders. The SE IV analogy is just as relevant on the other foot. How do you deal with an invader? Give him your territory with a smile and wander off to die? Or fight back? The small technical differences between the Israeli occupation and some other historical parallels, that the Palestinians have not been slaughtered en masse but piecemeal, or that the people who are courageous enough to resist openly are more likely to get shot hardly makes it morally right. Living in this media-saturated age, they know they can't get away with open mass-murder. If not for the ubiquity of cameras, I have little doubt they'd find ways to reduce the population of Palestinians more quickly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So, basically you are saying that Israel has no legal right to exist, that Jews have no historic claim to Palestine, that all of Israel was obtained entirely by conquest, and that the Israelis would love to kill all Palestinians. Do you really believe those things, or were you just a bit overwrought? Either way, I think you should study some more history. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen: But you really betray the vulgar American mindset that makes people angry by your final comment. The 'value' of the West Bank is irrelevant. These people want the right to live their own lives, with self-determination and dignity, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was simply responding to assertions that the (supposed) economic problems (supposedly) inflicted on the Palestinians justifies them inflicting economic damage on the US. My point was only that the GDP of the WTC is bigger than the GDP of the West Bank, so that's an unfair tit-for-tat even if the asserters are correct, and even if no one at the WTC had been killed. (Actually, I was overwrought, and have no hard numbers for the relative GDPs. So that Last point might be BS on my part, unless you include the rebuilding cost.) You and I are totally in agreement that freedom is priceless. |
Re: War....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Yeah, and how is this different from assorted Christians in the not-very-distant past hating everyone who wasn't a Christian? ... Yet, there have also been both 'Christians' and 'Muslims' through history who actually read their scriptures and recognized that their religion said things like 'do not kill'. Islam may not be a "nice, sweet" religion but it's no more responsible for lunatics who use it to justify their lunacy than Christianity is to blame for the brutal conquest of the Americas or thousands of other crimes committed by criminals trying to use it as justification. Cultures have phases of development, much like people. Just think of Muslims today as Medieval Christians and you'll see there's no real difference between the religions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So, what you are saying is that Muslims today are primitive? Should the West simply wait 500 years for their society to "grow up"? Wow! Sounds like I'm not the only arrogant Westerner! The difference is not in maturity level; it is fundamental. For instance, Christ taught his followers to love and do good to their enemies. Mohammed taught his followers to kill their enemies. It is insulting to both Christianity and Islam to say that "there is no real difference." (Hint: don't say something like that in a Muslim country.) For a Christian perspective on the differences, see http://www.light-of-life.com/ You can probably find a Muslim perspective somewhere on the web also, but this one web site should be enough to show that Muslims and Christians have totally different worldviews. |
Re: War....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
So, basically you are saying that Israel has no legal right to exist, that Jews have no historic claim to Palestine, that all of Israel was obtained entirely by conquest, and that the Israelis would love to kill all Palestinians. Do you really believe those things, or were you just a bit overwrought? Either way, I think you should study some more history. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, dmm, I don't need to study any more history. You don't get a lease in perpetuity on a piece of land just because your ancestors lived there once. If that were the case then most of the nations of Europe could claim most of Europe rather than just their current borders. Hmm, many of them did actually. Which is why European history was so bloody. The European Jews who invaded Palestine had/have no more claim to the land than the Irish have to Spain (which is where the Gaels originated -- they are descended from Celts who fled Roman conquest and found Ireland) or the Germans have to the Ukraine (which is where ethnic Germans are first found in history). When someone else lives on the land for centuries you cannot just move in and evict them on some claim of 'prior right'. It was a terrible mistake on the part of the Western powers to allow this to happen in Palestine, but they had some underhanded motivations of their own (if those Jews had remained in Europe they would have asked many difficult questions about the lack of response to the Holocaust) and so another innocent people was sacrificed to political expediency. So, your simplification of my views, though indeed a simplification, is essentially correct. And my views are more informed by history than you realize. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> So, what you are saying is that Muslims today are primitive? Should the West simply wait 500 years for their society to "grow up"? Wow! Sounds like I'm not the only arrogant Westerner! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, so-called 'Muslims' who think that God condones the murder of anyone in their own countries who doesn't belong to their religion, or the mass-murder of innocent people in other countries as revenge for wrongs committed by their governments are primitive. Just as so-called 'Christians' who thought that God sanctioned their right to conquer and rape the peoples of the 'new' world because they weren't 'Christians' were primitive. As I pointed out and you conveniently skipped over, there are a few people who genuinely understand what both religions are about, but they were in the minority in Medieval Europe and are in the minority now in most contemporary 'Muslim' nations. Ergo, the societies were/are primitive. That doesn't mean that any given individual Muslim is automatically primitive. Actually, not very many contemporary Westerners are that much ahead of their Medieval ancestors, but at least they have (mostly) stopped pretending to be 'Christians', which is some sort of progress. It's funny, but the 'non-religious' people of the West have now become far more "Christian" in behavior since they gave up on formal religion. An interesting paradox. (The US is of course the exception in the Western world, we're still something like 70 or 80 percent self-declared religious people. But then we also retain more of the old European imperialistic attitude, too, so that figures. They seem to go together.) I'm well aware of the hostility among the cruder "fundamentalist" types of each of these religions to the other. These are precisely the people who are FALSE 'Christians'/'Muslims'. They are merely tribal jingoists that have chosen to twist religion for their xenophobic purposes. And yes, this phenomenon is almost EXACTLY parallel in the Muslim world today to what it was in the Christian world in the past. Genuine Christians and Muslims know that their respective religions, as opposed to the political movements masquerading as religion, are nearly the same in message. It takes some pretty major nit-picking about doctrine to generate contradiction between them. I could quote something about "the letter" and "the spirit" of the scriptures here but I've not got the reference handy. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gifAnd if the "fundamentalist" types would obey the FUNDAMENTAL rules of the religions they claim to represent, including rules like "Thou Shalt Not Kill", the strife we have in the world today could not exist. |
Re: War....
It seems I was quite right about many 'Westerners' being not very far from the old primitive attitudes of their ancestors. Anyone interested in reading some quality news coverage instead of the jingoism coming from the major networks should visit salon.com and specifically http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...ash/index.html for some unreported information about the reaction to recent events in our "advanced" culture. Let us hope that the spirit of civilization can restrain the spirit of tribalism.
[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 14 September 2001).] |
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