Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Ow if you are not one of those bashers of games with any graphics that only like text based games then we are on one line.
I don't consider Diablo an RPG (you can call me a diablo basher). An RPG needs somewhat of a decent story. Story Driven RPG: I like fall out 3 better than fall out 1.. I like planescape torment best for it's story, BG is good too.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

There were a whole wad of factors affecting the area. E:B4D wasn't being developed in-house, so EA and Westwood had a lot of say-so over the UI because it had to 'remain true to the C&C series'. The tabs for unit/building construction were (I think) our innovation (I joined after the in-battle UI was finalised), but I got the impression that generally there were a lot of restrictions on ideas we had put forward.

It's understandable that they'd worry about a third party working on their prized (and highly lucrative) IP, but maybe they were over-cautious.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

And now WW is gone, and EA is doing their usual thing of making decent-good games and refusing to support them. :(

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Over Cautious I think is the watchword for the day when it comes to Gaming. Its become such a big investment that companies are loathe to try new things.

Its all derivative and formulaic to the extreme.

EA basically owns much of the gaming industry now...buying out companies then totally shutting them down. Its very sad.


Also, Ive heard good things about Dreamfall: The longest Journey. How puzzle intensive is it?

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Lol, wanna laugh? Possibly one of the most... well... "role playing" CRPGs :p I've played is one that is not even an RPG: the game of Blade Runner (by Westwood IIRC). More like an adventure, it's AWESOME game: it had a lot of ways to behave (playing your role ;) ) that made you really feel how you were changing the story - of course there were fixed events or the amazing plot wouldn't have evolved, but you could make lots of choices to get to one of the 10-or-so possible endings... and also some randomization (i.e. several characters could be humans or replicants) for further replayability. Added value for recalling a lot, with the locations, the camera movements and the atmosphere, the outstanding movie.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Westwood was one of the best studios ever. It's frustrating, as they're my only favorite game designers that I have had little luck tracking down, as to what projects they are involved with now. One game in particular that I never hear mentioned, Mars Saga, was revolutionary at the time, with turn based combat where you script your party, and then the combat round plays out in "real time". It did this with AOE/cone effect weapons and semi-realistic explosions - on the Commodore 64.


Not very, it's nothing like Myst or anything like that, that's for sure. There was one somewhat frustrating sequence involving some pylons spread out in a small maze, with this freaky troll thing that would kill you in one strike. Outwitting the beasty was much more a puzzle than the other part. ;) And there was one very minor puzzle I had to look up a walkthrough for, only to find it involved an aural cue, and I had my sound very very low while playing at night. :re: The story is amazing though, and much of the dialogue is pure genius. Seriously, if you like a good fantasy story, it's hard to go wrong with it. Just, be prepared to feel like crying at the end. :o

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Westwood had many great games under their belt, but towards the end the wheels were falling off their wagon. Possibly because...

According to Wikipedia, many of the staff at Westwood were very unhappy with the EA takeover, left, and created Petroglyph Games. So check them up.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

That happens with takeovers. When DMA Design were bought up to become Rockstar North, a lot of staff left too.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Agreed. I think many of the big publishers buy studios for the intellectual property, not for the talent of its workers. It suggests their interest is in leveraging the "brand" and being able to knock out cheap, inferior sequels to make money, rather than nurturing talent. It's certainly telling when groups as incredibly successful as Westwood were can find they don't have creative freedom anymore.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

That's funny, because they did Empire at War, which had some really cool concepts (and ALMOST sated my desire for a remake of Rebellion), but ultimately got very repetitive, very fast.

Oddly, I met a number of gaming industry people in my time in WoW, including a couple who claimed to be working on that title. According to them, it was an offshoot of Westwood - but they were pretty tight lipped about most things. They also stated that they were not part of the "old guard", and apparently their co-workers (for SOME reason) didn't talk much about the glory days.

Their new project is Mytheon which is a free/micropayment MMO. Quite a departure from the old days.....

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I thought EAW was probably the best Star Wars strategy game so far, but space combat was the only thing worth coming back to.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Other than the fact that Rebellion, which was published 9 years previous, had fully 3 dimensional space combat, and EAW is purely 2D.

You may scoff at this, but you could set waypoints in full 3 dimensoins in Rebellion, and perform some very stunning tactical maneuvers, taking full advantage (or disadvantage) of weapon facings, mobility, differing weapon types, etc. EAW's space combat is much more of your traditional RTS fare, in comparison - fast action, few tactical options beyond the "special abilities" of the units themselves, and the superficial interaction of differing weapon ranges and whatnot.

All things considered, I found my experience with Rebellion to be far more enjoyable, on nearly every level (besides eye candy, of course).

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

In actuality, now that I think about it I haven't played any other SW RTSes besides Galactic Battlegrounds. I'm guessing the combat in Rebellion was like in Homeworld? Even in that case I still don't think I would have liked it. Too many weird keyboard commands and such. I'm too casual a player.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Honestly, I don't think it's fair to compare the space combat to anything - other than what I imagine space combat would and should be like. ;)

That is, most ships are somewhat slow and cumbersome, but have a freedom of movement that very elegantly offsets the reduced mobility. IIRC in Homeworld, things happened very fast, as most games try to portray them. I think in reality, gravitational forces and inertia would have profound effects on what you could and could not do with a ship in combat, and this comes across well in Rebellion. It's a much more strategic system, where I think frequent use of Pause is not only reasonable, but to be expected.

The shortcomings were of course the limit of 2 factions, the lack of any sort of randomized map, the lack of any customizable characters, and an AI which we poo-pooed at the time, but while bad, was still better than nearly every game I've played of such scope and magnitude.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I played rebellion a long... long time ago. I never really got into it because I completely failed to understand the resource system, and as a consequence, sucked. I wonder if I could make something of it if I went back and tried it again.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

The really top brass at Westwood (and hence the major old guard) got very good positions within EA. I dare say pre-takeover their day-to-day input to titles could be relatively low, but their overall creative direction might have been considerable.

* * *

I was disappointed with Star Wars Rebellion. It was hopeless at reflecting that the Empire was a vast Behemoth and the Rebels a scruffy element skulking around the fringes, although the empire working by repression and the Rebels by hope, freedom and diplomacy was implemented. The battles were well done, but it took so long to get a fleet anywhere I could never manage to actually get a decent engagement where two big battle fleets met in a galaxy-deciding blaze, just a series of hopelessly one-sided skirmishes.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Hmmmm. I remember (it's been yearrrrrrrs) that with the Rebels, I fared best if I gobbled up rim systems as fast as I could with my amazing diplomants, while keeping the Empire running around in circles with Han+Chewie and my other awesome saboteurs running interference within the core. If done right, eventually I was zooming into the core with insane fleets of something like 5 Bulwark Battlecruisers, with support. Though my first strike fleets would tend to consist of just 10-12 Nebulon-B, as they had an excellent combination of firepower and maneuverability, with 2 fighter squadrons apiece, and IIRC could carry some ground forces as well.

As the Empire, it seemed a fairly simple feat to get a couple battlegroups of Star Destroyers up, and bombard the living hell out of any dissenting core systems, hammering them under the iron fist of the Empire with ruthless efficiency. The key here was to get a very strong economy going, because it takes a lot of manpower to bring the rim systems under your thumb, with so much distance between the clusters.

I don't know, I thought that there was a great combination of diplomacy (fighting for influence on each world), subterfuge (few games have had such engaging covert ops components), and gorgeous (for 1998!) space battles. I definitely rank it as one of my favorites of all time, and probably the best game to ever be associated with Lucas Arts (though Ballblazer was SWEET back in the day :p oh yeah, and Maniac Mansion and Zak McKracken!).

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Is Rebellion available as shareware?

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Tie fighter was a great game associated with lucas arts

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Everyone seems to agree that it should be Abandonware by now, it's been out of print for a long time, and has no LucasArts support. However, Home of the Underdogs apparently -will not- host LucasArts games, because they are notorious aholes about it. I found one site that hosts LucasArts abandonware titles, but their list stops at 1997, and I found one site that promised it had a "full download" of Rebellion, but it wanted a signup fee.....

Cheapest used copies on Amazon are $38+shipping, and a new copy will run you ~$150. :eek:

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Jesus Christ :eek: Screw that. I guess I'll just have to look for a torrent or something.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Try the 2nd link. I loved Rebellion, and X-wing vs. TIE Fighter. Ah, the golden age of gaming...

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Linking to pirate sites, or even advocating using pirated software, is a swift way to get yourselves banned.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Why is Abandonware considered Pirating, again? That's exactly the sort of attitude that we only really see out of LucaArts. Any sane person says "we published that OVER 10 years ago, and no longer print or sell it, have fun".

So to clarify, I do not advocate PIRATING, but I certainly do advocate people taking the time to enjoy classic games that have long since been ABANDONED by their publishers.

I think the general consensus is that once you no longer have the will or means to profit from your creation, it belongs to the world to which you unleashed it.

But don't get me wrong, I <3 fascists, too. :happy:

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Jim,
The link was to a well known pirate site. That is a very, very big no no.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Now, now, thanks to the reasonable copyright laws we have in most countries, abandonware is all well and good and not piracy at all...

As long as the creator has been dead for seventy-five years or somesuch.

In other news, I can't WAIT for the year 2070 to swing around! Think of all the games I could start playing for free!

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Abandonware is not legal. No publishing company can allow people to discuss how to illegally acquire games on their discussion forums. It sends the wrong message for 1) people who consider buying their games, 2) people who consider using them to publish games and 3) other publishers.

Also, old computer games are easier to share and harder to get to work than most traditional media, but the same rules and laws are in place. As an example, it's illegal to scan and share 1980s comic books, even if the company that published them isn't selling them any more and the artists/writers have moved on to do other stuff. Rights aren't lost that easily, and they shouldn't be. There are sites, like Good Old Games, that sell old, classic games for cheap, without DRM, and in formats that work on newer operating systems.
http://www.gog.com

All games aren't available, but many good games are. I found out about the site when I saw a guy playing Oddworld: Abe's Odyssee (9.99$).

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Sorry for instigating this. Its also probably hijacking the thread, so...

I'm getting really really excited about BF Heroes! I hear that it's coming out around March.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Yeah, a lot of people run into that. Here's how to avoid it if you want to try again: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I see Sacrifice on GOG for $5.99, now there's another title well worth a few bucks. <3

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Abandonware can be legal: some authors/publishers release the copyright and make stuff freeware in the belief no-one would pay for old stuff but may as well still be able to play it. It could be argued that software which the copyright owner does not enforce is effectively legal, although "effectively" certainly does not mean "is". Nevertheless, I'd agree it's inappropriate to link to such sites unless it clearly states the software it holds is there legally.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

considering how the pplz here keep publishing their games long and at full prices I think they'd sooner have the sort of Lucas art point of view :D

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

It could be argued that a copyright crime isn't effectively crime unless you get caught. :rolleyes:

Any way, this isn't the forum for this discussion.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause any trouble. I'll just slink back into the shadows now.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

While we can agree that this might not be the best play to give each other links of torrents ;) I'd give just a personal opinion.

I'm totally for supporting the devs who made a good game (and even better if they support it really well, I'm lookin at ya, guys :D ). And the company that made the game available to you. All of that, really.
But when the devs stop earning profit from the game itself, and possibly when the company itself stops putting it on sale, I start wondering.

We can't deny that games are an artistic experience. The tenth art, I'd say. Still, the art of creating games, and the artistic experience of playing them, is still an underdog. Often the so-called "media", for the pleasure of the masses, use this or that game as scapegoat for a shooting among teenagers or whatever. And while some philosophers and writers are making the artistic value of games more obvious to the masses, there aren't libraries or galleries for games, where everybody can live the artistic experience - nor we can expect them, for a long time. But shouldn't the artistic experiences, sons of the best intellect mankind, be available freely even to who doesn't have the means? Should the sharing of ideas be limited to books and paintings?
I think that pirating a game which is on sale is purely dishonest, because people worked hard on it and live on it, and whole companies depend on those sales. But when those people and companies stop offering the game, and thus stop expecting returns from that, shouldn't the artistic experience be available to those who didn't have the means to buy it?

Sorry for the long rant - random thoughts. :) Comments or death threats are welcome...

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I would highly suggest if someone wants to continue this discussion that a new thread be made, this thread is wandering far off-course and I kind of liked it before it started wandering into legal territory.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Rdojn is right, Please keep your posts on topic. Unauthorized distribution of copyrighted intellectual property is illegal, even if you feel the copyright holder should release their property into public domain. Discussion of piracy and the promotion of illegal activity is prohibited on our forums.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I'm sorry, mine was just a post on some ideals (fortunately, the high intelligence of the players of this game and members of this forum often permits very nice discussions :cool: ) and as I stated I was not advocating piracy at all. :)

Well, back on topic so! :D

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Just to make sure this ship sails back onto course -

I can't remember if this was mentioned earlier in the thread (I like to mention it a lot), but if you can handle REALLY old school RPGs, and you loved the feel and world of Fallout, then Wasteland was in fact the predecessor of Fallout, and will always remain one of my favorite games of all time. May be -very- hard to find. Here is an interesting site to get more info, and may help lead you towards legal avenues of enjoying this great old work.

Ranger HQ

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Wasteland absolutely rocked! I remember loving Fallout so much because it was a new and improved Wasteland. I remember being in college and playing D&D in the living room while my brother's girlfriend sat in the next room playing Wasteland for hours on my 386 with a VGA monitor. A girl playing computer games!? Not such a big deal now but unheard of in 1988. She is the only person that I know personally who has finished the game. By pure (and weird) coincidence my brother told me the other day that he is playing it again. He's married to that girl now, do you think she's giving him hints?

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

hmm don't know that game and since even fall out '2 coulnd't keep me interested with fall out 3 around I don't think I'll even try.

Just finished 3 btw, did about 95% of quests as a good guy. I really love the setting, the sound and the feel of really being in a desert wasteland.

Hate Giant Radscorpions that refuse to die.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

are there any games from the last 1-2 years you'd advice playing?

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

If you like FPS, and you seem to, TimeShift is an often overlooked title that I really enjoyed. At first glance it's very "gimicky" in that "oh yay I can stop time" sort of way, but it is really well implemented, and while there are many little puzzles that you have to alter time to complete, you are also left wide open to use your time powers in combat, and you can (sometimes totally accidentally!) create some very incredibly amazing effects.

To be honest, when you talk about "recent games", and not the blockbuster titles like Fallout3, or BioShock, or Crysis..... Most that I've tried, really did not hold my interest for long, either from being totally bland, or from gaping wide design flaws. God I'm glad I get most of mine used..... Sword of the Stars for example, I barely got my $10 worth, I would have been PISSED if I had paid full price for it - but same goes for most games. Even Fallout3 we bought new, but my roomie and I split it, cause I can't shell out $60 for a game (cept Dominions, we had to buy 2 copies to get unique CD keys :p).

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Portal is pretty good as well, heck the whole Orange Box is pretty good.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Hmm... I kind of like sword of the stars actually. I had the misfortune of getting it at around the same time as I got dominions though, and I've not played terribly much else of my own volition since I started playing dominions :P There are definitely things I dislike about sword of the stars, but I thought it had some good ideas.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Oh it certainly has some good ideas. In fact there were a number of things that I did like about it. But there are enormous, and I mean "can fly a battlecruiser through them" enormous flaws in the tactical combat. Also, the expansion introduces a race that plays a little like Ermor, and they are completely obnoxious, they make the game non-fun.

I started out kind of liking it. Then I started to not like it much. Then I learned some of the more advanced concepts in the game, and I started to like it a lot more. Then I hit the wall. :p

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I never got born of blood, but I can certainly see them making the game a lot less fun. I'd heard about the issues with the heavy beams, but I never really had much opportunity to test them. I never got past playing easy mode, so I never had to fight enemy dreadnaughts or even many cruisers :P. So I never really got acquainted well acquainted with the bad parts I guess.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

I love the Sword of the Stars series. I think it does a great job in many different areas. The designing your own ships is fun, and every technology is useful...as well, I enjoy the whole random tech tree as it eliminates the blandness of builds to an extent.

That being said, the game goes on WAY too long after you pretty much know You Won.

The random encounters are also cool :) Puppet Master...whew

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

Haha. Well I agree, there were a lot of cool aspects, and I love how even though the tech tree is somewhat small, it isn't burdened by fluff, and it just feels like there's enough content - just slimmed down for a faster paced game. And yes, I liked all the wasp things, and the crazy asteroid battle stations and whatnot. What I didn't like was how hard it was to give meaningful orders in combat half the time, and how unintelligent my ships were about facing and ranging, yet the computer, using the same AI, could cause me terrible attrition with inferior ships. And the expansion race (can't remember their name) just pushed it over the top, with their whole "yay, 1 shot and half your fleet is gone" weaponry.

Re: Off topic: How are games failing you?
 

There is no fleet, there is only Zuul?