Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

An E9 cyclops does not need awe to expand turn 2. Try it before you claim it doesn't work.

That said, i think awake SCs are the single worst use of points in an MP game. They rarely help cover holes a nation has, and they do little or nothing to set you up for the end-game or even mid-game. And killing a single unit really isn't that hard by early midgame, which means your SC pretender gets relegated to lab duty where he's not very good.

Also, doing really well early tends to get you ganked by experienced players.

So unless you absolutely need the awake SC to cover a really weak expansion game, I'd go with something else. Something that will retain utility all game long, or at least most of it. Burning 150pts for the privilege of awake + points for the chassis + dominion necessary is a lot to pay for a pretender whose job is basically done by the end of year 1, mid year 2 at the latest.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

They are building up too much fatigue. Try to keep it down to more manageable levels like the 10-20 range or the mistform becomes a LOT easier to pop. If you start getting much past 40, you become ridiculously vulnerable to critical strikes making it only a matter of time before something goes wrong. Also what does the gear look like? How much +reinvig do they have? What sort of shield? Vine or eye shields are probably your best bet. And eye shields should work extremely well on ulm.

Skelly spam *will* eat oreiads alive, though. They will never be able to kill all the skeletons, so they'll never kill the death mage. At best this means a rout.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

[quote=rdonj;750639]Nah, you can eat them up just fine if you're prepared for it.

Option 1: vine shield + fire brand + thug gear/script and you can chew through skellies all day long until the enemy mage passes out. You just can't count on your awe obviously.

Option 2: Earth boots/random. Summon earth elemental. That's a 1 gem (2 gems if your mage is level 2E) earth attack that'll squishify a fairly arbitrary amount of skellies.

Option 3: No equipment summon air elemental. This one is a bit riskier but can certainly be plenty effective depending on who you're attacking.

Option 4: (depending on your opponent) use some blockers then spells that don't effect undead. Swarm, poison cloud, poison cloud. By the time the undead

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I just played around with this a little with Eagle Kings modded to 75% SR. They seemed to take more damage than I would expect with 75% resistance, but they also had fatigue most of the time. More importantly, I never saw one in the AoE not take some damage.

I'm sticking with the assumption that resistances are %reduction not %avoid.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I have tried it - many times. Teach your mom to suck eggs =P.
There are a *lot* of indies that will gank a cyclops. Ichies, bandits, crossbows, cav, nightmares, awakened vines, air masters, mandragora.... to name a few.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I've tried the standard SC's. The Cyclops is a weak choice for EA Arcoscephale. They already have significant earth power and Earth mages do not stand in as much need of an Earth blessing.

Cyclops' paths cost too much to make him useful in diversifying magic, and even if you still want the Earth blessing, you can take the Master Druid and get a dual bless with nature cheaper than you ever could with the Cyclops and he allows better magical diversity, even though you don't really need it for anything besides Death which you could do nicely using the Lord of Rebirth who, in CBM, will provide you with an excellent additional gem supply in exchange for the points and costs slightly less. In Vanilla, I doubt he's worth the 125 cost.

I prefer Immortals (especially Phoenix for early expansion), Rainbows (for site searches and easy access to all paths), and Big Astral--I found that a Sphinx with Death magic like this one (CBM) can make for interesting late game strategies.

Sphinx (Body 159, 500 hits)
Magic: Earth 6 Astral 10 Death 6
Dominion 5
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 2
Imprisoned

You want Thaum-8 or better by the time he escapes so he can teleport.

Stygian Paths to your enemies capitol and supply him with gems. He just casts a lot of Thaumaturgy spells:

Master Enslave
Undead Mastery
Soul Drain
Wither Bones
Burden of Time (if you plan to go with this strategy, of course, you'd want to take neutral or production scales, magic 1 or 3 and not get too many Philosophers, and I've never tried using BoT with Arco, but Orieads are relatively resistant to BoT)

You also get Charm on your Orieads which is one of the things they're great for, and access to the very useful Gale Gate, Imprint Souls, etc...

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Taking a step costs 15 death gems and 250 gold if you have to build a lab, but the Sphinx is definitely not easy to destroy especially in its own dominion.

Parking it inside a castle is a most excellent defense. Bing! 30 million tons of Astral Malevolence is now guarding your province... and no one can see it until they break down the doors and find their souls ripped out by a massive stone God.

There is one thing you should avoid, however...

The Sphinx cannot tear down a castle wall by itself, nor can it build a lab in a province with a castle. Therefore, if you teleport the Sphinx onto a castle, you need to be sure that the army that it brings along with it can tear down that castle AND storm it successfully as the Sphinx itself cannot do either of these things. Your best bet is to park the Sphinx in a province adjacent to the target castle and then use Gateway to transport in troops to siege and conquer the castle.

There are so many nifty things to do with the Sphinx in EA Arco.... I have played a bit, but haven't fully explored it's awesomeness. One thing is sure, though, I don't take the fountain anymore--The only immobile I select is the Sphinx. I have tried the Statue, and she's quite nice, but not as nice as interesting as Sphinxy. Teleporting the fountain into battle is very dangerous. It says the fountain is difficult to destroy in the description, but it's not that tough and it can't run away.

I've never encountered the "50-turn rout" problem with Sphinx... Not sure what happens, but I bet it's not good on the offense. Fortunately, his offensive movements are few and far between since he usually attacks opportunistically and then defends his landing spot from whatever might come there. If you can predict the path of your opponent's march (bridge provinces) you can set dastardly traps.

Sphinx is my favorite Late Game Astral pretender. Indestructible lovliness.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Almost all of which you'll see coming. (The small numbers of crossbows or HC that occasionally avoid showing up in scout reports won't end you). And most of which are rare. Are there even crossbow indies in the EA? I mean, most awake SCs have things they can't handle, just don't attack those things.

And those air masters will end just about any standard expansion party or SC. So dying to them is kind of par for the course.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Sure squirrel. But not only do you get awe with dom9, you get much better hitpoints -and therefore MUCH lower chance of a crippling affliction which ends your usage as an SC.

Anyway, we agree he isn't worth the points.

Verji, I don't think in MP play people are going to allow you to get away with an imprisoned pretender. Arco tends to get jumped...

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I honestly don't understand this emphasis on pretenders to defend against rushes. I defend rushes with national mages and troops all the time. Now, my EA Arco experience is pretty limited, but you have earth magic and good research, it can't possibly be that bad.

You know, i think i feel a general strategy post coming on...

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

[quote=Baalz;750648]Oops. I should have said: "Skelly spam *will* eat oreiads set to cast spells alive...". The elaboration doesn't hurt though.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

... by the time the undead what?!?

Oh no! It seems Baalz got eaten by a horde of zombies!

:p

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I think they can take a rush provided you don't take the standard, Sloth-3 and can actually build a good group of troops. The Sphinx I suggested above still has Sloth, but that could be exchanged out especially since I took that extra gravy point of Astral magic and I didn't touch Misfortune. Mis-2 could be exchanged for the Sloth-2 for respectable troop production.

EA Arco has some very nice units. The only reason they are ever subpar in early game is because of the Sloth scale. 17-prot Myrmidons, Flying Cavalry, Trampling Chariots? Come on... They can defend themselves.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Mm... myrmidons are a bit iffy. Their insane encumbrance value makes them tricky to use effectively other than as pure arrow catchers. The flying cavalry looks awesome on paper, but it is also tricky to use effectively, because of the way flyers seperate from each other and build up fatigue super fast. But I have only ever used them against the AI. Against a human, definitely they would be much better.

The archer chariots are pretty good though. And peltasts can be surprisingly effective.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

slingers for glamour
chariot archers for (almost)everything else.

You know, it seems to me, if you're flying you shouldn't' be trampled.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Well, I tend to use a diversified army...

Icarids are excellent anti-archer and can be quite effective against infantry as well provided you outnumber them because in large numbers, they tend to flank opponents which, for a group of archers, results in a very, very quick death.

As for the flying cavalry, if you don't have a large number of them, for some odd reason the AI tends to spread them out and you get 1 vs. 27....

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Some points I would like to review:

Under current CBM, a number of pretenders work differently, are costed differently and have slightly different synergies, even though the rough approach is still the same.

Imho, Awake Pseudo SC to kickstart expansion with a minor bless, sloth 3 and ok scales still works nice, but I would like to offer the following thoughts:
Acrosephale has access to Heretics, and, with Sloth 3, still good early research under a moderate drain scale.
Given that Drain 2 instead of Magic 1 saves a lot of points, and can be partly mitigated. Basically, one is getting 120 design points but pays significantly less in opportunity (compared to nations without heretics) for it. It can be very worthwhile to invest those in either even better scales or in an improved Pretender chassis.
Likewise, Acrosephale is quite good at mitigating Death (Healers) or Misfortune (Barbs) too, although it is not neccesarly wise to take both of them together.
In my opinion, the Forge Lord is a quite good choice for this.
In CBM, Forge Lords and White Bulls have the same base cost, but a Forge Lord needs Awe for early expanion. With the Forge Lord itself, there are a number of choices apart from E4 for the obvious bless.
Fire 4 would open Fire quite nicely, and gives a "usefull" bless to your both Oreiads and the Sacred Cavalry, although imho an N bless is neccesary for Oreiad thugging.
Some points in Astral can get very cheap access to Rings of Sorcery/Wizardy /Scullcaps etc. One could also go for 4 points of nature, even though that can get expensive.
I think that either Astral or Air are needed, since Air allows a First turn Midget Masher and Astral allows a First turn enchanted pike. The Repel from the Pike backed by Awe allows the Forge Lord to deal with non scary indies. Although the Midget Masher (+ Air Shield from the Air pick) is better in the short term. Choosing this kind of Forge Lord is not advisable under more than 5 independent Strength, as what he can solo (be aware of Wolf Tribe Warriors in addition to other early game nasty indeps) drastically depends on the indep power. However, one should not hesitate to simply back him up with some Mercs (EA Acro should have a crapton of money, we are still only recruiting Philospohers for most of year 1) or some supporting troops.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

healers dont heal old age afflictions btw

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Source?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

....and, when they dont, if you manage to lower your hero's age, will them healers be able to get rid of the old age afflictions if hero's current age is under the treshold of beginning of old age?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

source is by playing the game. try it dude. and to anaconda: no

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I've tried the prod EA arco in SP oracle s6 + great scales (you could have omfg scales with it). It looked really good. You start to mass oreiads earlier and have great troops. Should give this build a try in MP.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Huh? whats that with the first part there? Is this a change i am unaware of?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

He means that it cost 40 points to have magic 1, but you gain 80 points by taking Drain 2.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Don't wikipedia rules apply for posts here? ;)

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

What's a wikipedia rule?

Anyway, clarification needed:

Healers can't heal afflictions on units with old age. The game doesn't track where the afflictions came from. They just check: are you trying to heal a unit with old age? Well, then you are out of luck. Chalice/GoH works, of course. And if you make the unit not-old any more (N path boost/B spell/TC spell) a healer can heal its afflictions.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Oh. Ya learn something new every day. < runs to change multiplayer file >

That does actually match my results...

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

So, weird to resurrect such an old thread, but with CBM making sloth harder to take, is Bazz's original strategy still viable?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I recently wrote this is the Shared AAR experience thread (link).

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Thanks. Maybe if philosophers weren't capital only, there would be more interesting.... ah well.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Maybe it works with an awake pretender- like baalz said. I skipped that part and paid the price but maybe if i had followed the guide more closely...


That said, i feel the chariot archers are much stronger than the Pegasus, even with a bless- possibly not against giants but against anything they can trample, they are a stronger option. If i had to redo my arco build, i would take production 3 and expand with chariot archers and i feel i would be in a better position vis-a-vis the mid-game.