Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Yes, but its quickhost. People should try to take their turns quickly.

Also, Sauromatia staled. There's no excuse for staling on turn 3.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Sorry, unexpected spent a night at the hospital. Anyway, turn is in.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I would like to point out that every capitol has a crown, so you know where all the capitols are. There's no excuse for taking a province next to an opposing capitol.

(As long as we're going to have an NAP, we might as well enforce it realistically).

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Just a tip.
Crown means the VP.
I think GB setted that 1 VP per capital.
So in our game,crowns indicate the capital.
But if there isn't such a set ,crown doesn't mean Capital,it only means Vp.
:)

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

> unexpected spent a night at the hospital

I hope you are OK now. Best wishes for your health.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Cast gift oh health!
Be quick!:D

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Well, yes. But for the purposes of this game, every capitol has a VP.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Hmm, I wonder what strategy guide Caelum read :rolleyes:

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

zOMG, hax!

Besides, if you know what I'm doing, you should be able to hand me my *** on a plate, right?

Edit: Speaking of openings choices - some of you whom have apparently taken strong blesses really surprise me. As in, complete failure to comprehend what you were thinking. I can't wait to see what those blesses actually are. (Some of you who seem not to have taken a strong bless *also* completely surprise me).

mmmm... Graphs on. It gives you so much information.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

What would make you think that some people have strong blesses? And just because I know what your opener is doesn't mean that I can do anything about it at this point. I'm just going to enjoy watching it crash and burn.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I don't know about you, but poor income and poor research tend to imply bad scales and no awake research pretender to me. Which means one of two things: (1) Strong Bless, or (2) expensive awake SC. Now, with so many cheap awake SC options, its hard to understand what would motivate someone to tank their scales for it. Also, they'd probably have a turn 1 research boost if they invested a lot of magic in an awake SC, which is the only way it'd be expensive. (I didn't notice anyone take a province turn 1, did you?)

You can come to your own conclusions about who's being crazy by playing a strong bless. However, one turn's worth of observation may be insufficient to ID some of them (or cause false IDs) - and the signal's getting weaker now that people are on different expansion trajectories.

Our seat cushions can be used as flotation devices in the event of a water landing!

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I think you're reading too much into the graphs for such an early point of the game. It's only turn 5 after all and everyone is still busy gobbling up the indy provinces. Priorities shift and in a game like this long term goals are just as important as short term, don't judge the artist until they're finished the piece.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

So in other words- "Yes, I did not take a bless strat, I'm playing for the long term."

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

No, early is the best time to read a lot into the graphs because there's very little noise in the signal. Absolutely zero at the end of turn 1 unless someone felt risky and took a province successfully right away (which also says something about what they did...).

In a 100% gold game everyone starts with 400 income in their capitol. As upkeep isn't deducted from the 'income' score graph that is indeed an absolute number. Anyone with income significantly less than 400 has chosen negative scales in excess of positive, which means they're spending points elsewhere - ie, pretender chassis and/or magic. Truly low early income means they've really sacked their scales and almost certainly have a strong bless or an awake and expensive pretender (ie, rainbow SC).

This is absolutely guaranteed unless your opponent is a moron. They had to spend those points somewhere, and there's only so many places you can spend points. (I mean, we can imagine someone sacked their scales and then *didn't* spend those points on anything, but then we're assuming that person is stupid.)

Basically, deduction and the process of elimination can use the graph reports (especially llamaservers nice numerical rundown) to conclude quite a bit about pretender design for each player. I've only talked about scales thus far - other ratings can easily give away choices made in pretender design. I leave that as an exercise to the reader, but I would bet off the llamaserver rundown after turns 1 and 2 I could tell you the quality of your scales, what type of pretender you're playing, and ballpark your dominion rating without too much difficulty. Add some knowledge of your unit set and I might even be able to make specific guesses at magic paths and scale choices.

If you wait to read anything into the score graph then the noise starts swamping the signal and you lose a lot of information. (What quality provinces do you control? How many turns did you hire mages, and how many of them are doing research? Etc...).

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Thank you, it was a friend who had far too much to drink then was good for him. Think 'stomach pump'... All good now though.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

To Squirrelloid> You still consider yourself a n00b? ;) Btw. I was supprised how much players are willing to pay for mercs.. since I bid quite alot and I still didn't get any. hmmm

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I hve a big impression with some nation who has a large power in the research I don't understand how, but there is incredible.

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How does the ability to use logic effect how skilled I am at the game? Seriously, I don't even need to have ever played the game to guess pretender builds based on turns 2+3 graphs. Its just pure logic. (Ok, it does require looking at the pretender building mechanics - which doesn't actually require playing the game).

Rules mastery =/= play skill.

(This is my 5th MP game, 3 others of which are still going, and thus not ended, and Nox ended rather suddenly in the early game for silly reasons - a game in which I made a mistake *turn 1*. I have yet to even make it to an endgame, much less play one).

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Thanks for opening up the discussion about gleaning info from the score graphs. I wanted to earlier, but I didn't quite dare.

So... I find it surprising that I'm the only one who took 2 provinces on turn 2, and no-one took any provinces on turn 1. Is that normal? I mean, surely if you have an awake SC pretender you would expect them to be able to take any indy province single-handed, right? So you should send them out "blind" on turn 1.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Well there are a few indy that you do not wish to meet wih your SC pretender early: the lizard shaman can ruin your day with a single curse, horde of berserker barbarians or undead will just ignore your awe and may inflict you some early unwanted affliction. And lastly, I never feel comfortable when I have to face a full charge of knights when I am naked ;)

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Essentially what Kiet said. You're probably going to be fine, but is it really worth risking your long term plans just to take one province before everyone else?

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Proposed Treaty of Non-Aggression between Helheim and Marverni:

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.

- Spheres of influence are defined by province-count-distance to capitals. A province closer to one nation's capital than the other is in that nation's sphere of influence. Provinces equidistant from both capitals is in neither sphere of influence; in effect they are first come first served.

- termination: this NAP will last until turn 12. (for simplicity. Helheim is quite willing to negotiate other arrangements later to extend it)

Marverni, please indicate in this thread your agreement.

Note: this is a quick version of this, as we have not had time to work out more detailed terms. I can live with it, I am happy to negotiate additional terms later.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I want to see war now people! Its turn 7, issue your attack orders now!

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Abysia and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Spheres of influence: Abysia's sphere of influence includes provinces 221 239 242 and areas north and west. Helheim's sphere of influence is the provinces south and east of those. Provinces east and southwest of this border are not defined to lie in either sphere of influence; therefore according to the letter of this treaty whoever occupies such provinces first gets them thenceforth.

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Signed by Abysia

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

i can tell at least one of us is a lawyer in real life.......... that's the most wordy treaty i've ever seen. ;)

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Frozen Lama: I believe that 7 turn NAP applies to orders from this turn, but what do I know...

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

it is turn 7 now. massive assualts across the world should hit on turn 8 attack orders can be issued this turn

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Honestly, I doubt people who are lawyers in real life would enjoy being wordy in games. I just like being pompous and formal. And it saves on issues of interpretation later, which is good since these are actually inviolable according to game rules if posted here.

I'm surprised we are not seeing more of them... Do we smell blood in the water?

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I am quite happy to agree to this. Let's talk more in PMs.

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There are disadvantages to public treaties - ie, everyone knows who you're allied with. Secret alliances let you surprise enemies. That said, you also run the risk of being stabbed. Costs and benefits, such as it were.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

You will find that diplomacy will take up a lot of your turn time, so while it might be fun at first, later on it may just become a hassle.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I have found that if you have a reputation as one who ALWAYS honors his word either public or privite (even at the risk of losing the game)that you will get better tratys, trade agreements, and allies instead of Nap mates.

Diplomacy a hassle? Perhaps for some, but for me its a way playing the game and it works for me. :up:

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I mean a hassle as in the time input that is necessary to conduct good diplomacy. You may end up spending more time making deals and trying to draft 'water-tight' treaties than you do making your turns. It also adds more stress and pressure (ie player burnout) if you aren't used to it, particularly if English isn't your first language or you happen to be in a line of work where you draft contracts :p
Certainly it was something I wasn't expecting when I started and I think its only fair to warn others about it.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Or you could just keep things simple, and solve problems when you get to them. Most of my diplo consists of "Don't attack each other w/out X turns of warning" and some trading.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I think the diplomacy could be very funy.

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Ugh... My e-mail must have messed up yesterday because I swear I at least tried to e-mail my 2h file, and I definitely did my turn. This is worse because it's early game 8(.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I think diplomacy is one of the most interesting thing in a dominion mp game :)

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

rain!blood!rain of blood!blood of rain!
I felt it,i smelt it!
Sheep must die!

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

I see you are a japanese.:) Maybe the language did make some very little troubles.So did i.But the diplomacy is part of the game,it's funny and very worth reading,there're too many informations.:)

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

What a pity.
Next time,before you close the dom3,check the llama websites.:)

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Gentlemen, agianst your better judgement I allowed Hinnom in the game, NOW (LOL), he id right under my position and attacking me.

I can hold out for a while but he will prevail. Caelem is sitting this one out.

Any one that wants to help stop him before he becomes a juggarnaut might want to nip at his heals some as he will be tied up in the top to middle North Eastern section fighting me.

His cap is in(I believe)#19 and his provinces that I know of are 32 31 17 7, that leaves around 3 unaccounted for.

I will try and slow him down and fight a guerilla war till the end.

Frozen Lama is now ADMIN.

I hold no ill will towards Hinnom as he has been honest and upfront with the negotiations the whole time and this will not carry over into any other games (my word). However, if you take him out....I wouldn't mind that either.:up:

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

assuming your province #'s are right, that would be the South eastern part of the map

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Yeah for his original territory, Capitol etc...

I was talking about where the fighting will be taking place....that be MY area in the middle NE section:eek:

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Grrrrrrrrrrr, I was just thinking....

I will have spent more time on the rules of this game than playing it.

I havn't gone out this fast since my fIRST game (19 turns). Maybe I'll set a personal best AND learn to listen to you guys next time!!!

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Hey GB, look on the bright side, you now have a good chunk of experience admining, which will be handy later. Thanks for taking the initiative to get this game going - without you we would all still have been sitting around in the original thread hoping someone would step up. Thanks to Lama for being willing to take over as admin.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Actually, your right...

I have always wanted to know how to create a game but was just too Lazy/worried about trying it.

There are 2 things I have learned in this whole process.

1.Pick a plan and hold to it.

2. LISTEN to people about the game, Decide whether they are making suggestions to further their own style of play, or trying to make an even playing field. Then when you make your decision be prepared to live with it and take responsibility.

(I 'think' I picked the right map, got a good mix of REAL new guys, kinda new guys, and medium level guys.

I liked the idea of the 7 turn NAP at the start to help the real new guys.

HOWEVER, When I decided to let Hinnom play in a NOOB game I wanted a REAL new guy to play it and didn't listen to Squirrelliod, Trumanator, and others that Hinnom should be banned.

I took a guy that was a private with 23 posts...but I forgot to see when he actually JOINED this forum. MY BAD, and I am paying the price.

Next game I will listen more closely and check things a little better.

LOL, but it WILL be next game cause I am pretty much outta here!!!

Thanks to all of you for trusting Lama and I to make a game that you spend your time with.

I will be around till the last shot is fired but Lama will Admin from here on out so PM him if you need an extension.:up:

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Just to make thing clear: whatever nation I could have had I would have attacked you. It wasn't because I am playing Hinnom This was only a matter of bad starting location. I only had a choice to make: to face lightning bolt (and now thunderstrike) spamming or slingers protected by peltasts... Anyone at my place would have made the same choice.

To all the lord of lands, I am sure you are more than happy to see the rephaims using all their ressources into an early war and despite what the prophet of Arcocephale claimed he hasn't lost yet. He is trying to draw you into a war that isn't yours. Don't be fooled by this and rather pay attention to your neighbours. As the sons of the fallen Grigori, our might draw people's attention but don't forget that there are other nations that are as powerful or will become more dangerous in the futur. And we all know that despite any friendship and alliance treaty, there can be only one winner...
Now if you would excuse me, it is lunch time and I am eager to taste arco's steak.

Kokb'ael, prophet of Keldanor

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NOT SO Mighty Hinnom,

If you would have been another nation, you would have dashed yourselves on my walls, as I received a 3000 Gold event that allowed me to continue to buy Mercs and still research.

I threw everything I had at you and drove you back....but didn't manage to kill your 1 Melquat.

This next turn (as you are reinforced will tell the story.

The scores show you have a minimum of 11 Provinces, You have the resources at this stage to do what you want.

You may have convinced or made a devils agreement with Caelem who should be fighting next to me to contain you, but there are others that KNOW the danger of Hinnom, AND know I don't call for help...I warn others of impending danger.

My game is over as I can't defend against your few but POWERFUL troops, others may want to stop you NOW as you said " you have no where to go but North", which means you have already taken the South.

I don't want to draw anybody into anything, the people I know in here can think for themselves and remember, they already knew the danger of Hinnom as they advised me NOT to allow it in the game.

Good luck to you, but I think your going to find the more veteran players will not stand still like Calem was forced to.

Re: Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders
 

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Fomoria and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim