Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

And here I'm not sure i've played a nation that actually gets Gorgon as an option...

My impression has mostly been that some pretenders need improvements rather than some are too good. (Ok, maybe PoD is too good). Especially some specific nation pretenders that just really aren't worth it. Also, some path combinations should be more available - why is WE so hard to find, it seems like a logical combination. (And water nations get totally hosed on pretender choices - they need access to more non-W pretenders).

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

Do we get to see the map file before game? If not, is it possible to know which sites will be presearched in overlord lands beforehand? I'm mostly interested in knowing the initial gem income, as it says there will be some extra stuff lying around... or, is that only in the concept thread? Did it make to final game? Might influence pretender design, in addition to the new cbm version.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

Yeah, you will. The magic sites are not decided yet of course, but they will largely be sites that your national mages could have found by searching, with a few outliers scattered in.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

We going to get told which nation we're playing here? I mean, I know a new version of CBM is coming, but I'd like to start thinking about what i'm playing.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

I am still waiting on tegramon and ossa. However, they are taking quite some time to get their picks in. If they don't get their lists to me by the end of today I think we will go ahead and start without them.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

So, if I don't get lists from those two players, I think we can drop an overlord if one of you would prefer to play as a normal nation. I don't think it's necessary for the game, just an option. Although I admit it would be easier to just leave things as they are now.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

So, can we expect our nation selections soon? Very anxious to learn which of my picks (if any) I'll be getting so I can start really working on a strategy for them.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

For the record, I want to apologize to rdonj for our constant collective bugging I've been a part of and thank him for all the work he's done thus far to get this thing to this point:

Sorry! Thank you!

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

Hey Rdonj...

Looking at this from a balance perspective - the victory conditions strongly favor the overlords.

They can attack any normal at their desire, they start with a huge advantage in larger nations, and normals can't cast globals.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

Okay sorry guys, I couldn't get to this before now. I hope you'll forgive me. Nation picks will be up shortly. Chrispdersen sent me a list of ea and la nations. I don't want to keep anyone else waiting any longer so I am going to work out the list now, and if he gets to me before I have finished making it, he'll get a choice, if not he'll have one of two nations available.

It is very possible the overlords have the advantage... but I think it is also very possible the normals have the advantage. I really don't know that I could say for sure who will come out on top. If this were a team game it would be more obvious probably. But since I am letting the players figure out just how to conduct themselves, I personally have no idea how it'll turn out. Hopefully the advantages the overlords get will not just allow them to run all over everyone else.

They can't attack any normal at their desire though. They have to have dominion or have their god in the army. Since I am sure everyone will be spamming dominion in this game I don't know just how easy that will be.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

Nations are posted. Anyone with an asterisk got one of their picks. Anyone without an asterisk, you may feel free to trade nations amongst yourselves. I will note that many people chose the same first couple of nations. A significant number of lists were along the lines of "van, aby, x" to be precise :P. People who picked vanheim and abysia probably would have been well served sending lists longer than 3 nations. I even had two people send me the exact same list.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. *Accepting nation lists
 

Thanks :) Hopefully all that bugging me will make for a much better game than it would have been otherwise.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Thank you very much, rdonj! Time to get to work building a strategy.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

I'd be open to trading MA Oceania for some other nations. If you'd be willing to help me, please get in touch.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Overlords,
Cmon you guys are the experienced ones. Do you really believe this is even remotely an equitable contest?

Put your judges hat on for a moment. Do you believe the victory conditions are such that a normal nation has even close to the same chance of vicotry condition that an overlord does?

Lets reduce this to simplest cases.

Suppose an overlord chose an awake pretender, good dominion, and fairly horrible scales. With 10 provinces and three forts, at the very least he is able to outproduce a normal nation at least 3:1.

Let alone stealth preachers.

Frankly, the overlords can use the gatestone to teleport 2 away from any starting normal nation. They can use this to deny normals expansion. Once there they just walk into an adjacent province.

Even if it doesn't happen turn 1 - it could certainly happen turn 3.

The victory conditions are fairly meaningless. Even if the overlords were required to eliminate all other overlords to win, it would still be that the overlords would attack normal nations. There is no way an overlord is going to attack a roughly equal overlord when they could instead grab independents or crush normals. It is only after the vast majority of normals or indies are gone that there will *really* be significant chance of conflict betweeen normals.

Personally, I believe that even if the overlords were prevented from attacking a normal until attacked that this would *still* inevitably result in an overlord victory.

I would suggest this, instead. No overlord can attack a normal until he has taken at least one other overlords capitol, he is free to attack any normal that attacks his territory. Still not even remotely fair.. but at least a nod in the right direction.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

nevermind... arguing is not going to benefit anyone.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

As I said in pm, at this point I would really not make any further changes to the rules. This game needs to start eventually, or players will start to bail. If things don't work out this time, hopefully issues can be identified and fixed for any other games in this style should people still find it interesting.

My main goal with this game was just to do something different and have it hopefully be an entertaining deviation from the normal exactly similar starts that you go through in every other game. Not that that isn't fun, but it can be nice to do things differently once in a while. I want everyone to bear in mind that this is an experimental game and I'm not sure anyone can say for sure how it will turn out. Obviously overlords start stronger than everyone else. But is that enough to keep the other overlords at bay? I've seen a crafty idea or two from normal players about what they might do to hurt an overlord. The game is obviously not going to be completely balanced. I hope that will prove to be part of its charm :).

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Well we new the conditions before we signed up so there is no point complaining about them now :) Although I agree they do favour the Overlords a lot.

I am curious about the diplomacy stance. I don't have a problem with a back stabbing diplomacy game. We all know that diplomacy in this game is not binding and that betrayals don't carry over in to other games. So trust between players is not encouraged :p Yet the whole set up of the game seems to require a great deal of diplomacy to work especially if the normals are to have a chance. So while I don't have a problem with this diplomacy option in games, I am surprised it was selected for this game.

This doesn't mean I want this changed. I signed up with these terms. Just wonder why this was selected. It seems to be aimed at an issue some people have with lazy napping in standard mp games. But this is not a normal mp game....

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

I would think it's partly just from perspective. I as an overlord player see everything that can go wrong for me from turn 2, as well as a normal player sees the game from his point of view. The fact is, we'll have 1 winner and 20+ losers and this can go whatever way. Not being able to step into capital provinces is going to be a HUGE pain.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Diplomacy should always be machiavellian. Terms get honored as long as it is in both nations best interests to do so. That's what diplomacy *is* in politics and international relations. (Also, non-binding diplomacy stops nations from being compelled into certain courses of action that end up being against their interests).

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Part of the reason I don't think this will be too gigantically in the overlord favor is that they can't direct that much of their strength at any one normal - they are going to be surrounded by them, and the minute a normal thinks he can take an overlord province and smash a temple, he's gonna do it, cause then the overlord will have that much more trouble fighting him back - and he might just grab a magic site or two in the process, which are at a major premium in this game.

The overlord are strongest of course, but they can only attack you with one army at a time unless their dominion starts taking you over - its on heck of a limitation. a normal stands a reasonable chance of winning if he happens to be near an overlord who is distracted dealing with other normals long enough for him to get a few temples up and prevent the OL from attacking him. Once he does that, he can start taking over other normals till he has his required number of nomral caps, then try and take out a weak overlord for the win. It's possible. And if I recall, he only has to have the OL cap. he doesn't have to hold it.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

There are two main reasons I thought diplomatic agreements should not be binding for this game. One, it fits my thematic sense for the scenario. Two, with the victory conditions so low it would be very easy for someone to get a victory without really having to fight properly for it (without getting into that murky situation of people trying to decide whether it's okay to ignore your NAPs if the game is on the line).

I guess it's not specifically clear from the first post in this thread, but normals still have to control all their caps for 3 turns. However, instead of an overlord cap they only have to control any one of an overlord's starting forts.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Bad news: My employer is busy making a large number of staff redundant, and I volunteered to be a representative on one of the ensuing consultation groups. After attending the first meeting, it has become apparent that I won't have very much free time over the next three months - I certainly won't be able to start a new game of Dom 3 any time soon.

So, with apologies to everyone here, I'll have to withdraw from the game.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

GS,
Sorry to herar that. Hope it works out.
-ssj

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Decision on what this means shortly. Please hold.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Iainuki has requested to swap from ma oceania to the now-vacant pythium. I have taken pity upon him and granted his request. Oceania is now available if anyone wishes to switch.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Alright, it seems there will not be an issue with the map having only 5 overlords, so there will be no need to re-shuffle players. The new version of CBM seems to be coming along nicely, I expect it will be ready before the map is, unless QM is detained from releasing it. So you should have at least some opportunity to get used to the changes before the game.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Got a map/game-balance related question. As a guy who (perhaps foolishly) requested a 'normal' Water nation, I'm wondering what's to stop the Overlord water nation (in this case, R'lyeh/Baalz -yikes!) from stomping my guts out with impunity?

I mean, if I was a land 'normal', and an Overlord showed up with his pretender on my border, I'd just cry out to all the other Overlords and Normals, "hey, so-and-so is attacking me - this would be a good opportunity to use those Gate Stones, etc.!".

But if, underwater mind you, R'lyeh shows up with a Kraken backed up by a bunch of Mindflayers on turn 5-6 or so (and he can attack anywhere as long as his pretender is along for the ride, right?), what hope have I?

Great, he can't put me under siege, but at that point I only have one province left, and zero help for rescue? How are the Water 'Normals' supposed to defend themselves from the Water Overlord?

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Do everything you can to equip yourself specifically to counter an early SC? In the case of the Kraken, it seems that just chaffing him to death is quite possible what with the fact that his protection is subpar, doesn't naturally regenerate, and that he's not immune to his own poison. You'd need some sermon of courage spam to fight that way, though. Plus, drowning the enemy in bodies is a way to fight mind hunters in small quantities too. Do you really need to beat him so much as just make him understand that it will be more painful to wipe you out than it will be to create a relatively friendly border that allows the two of you to attack someone else.

It might help to rush early to some important anti-SC spell that you can spam as he tries to munch on your army or to construction so you can spam ethereal crossbows, which are pretty damn frightening to that kind of unit early.

I might be missing something, though.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Our main concern is early year one, before we could even get to anti-SC spells(especially with difficult research). But, I do know that a kraken porting into enemy dominion is going to get creamed. Even if there's only a 5% chance of dying, it isn't worth the risk of losing your gatestone. That's of course assuming we aren't all crammed in together, in which case we can try to defend each other.

I presume if an overlord attacks us with his pretender, taking back our territories is not a full declaration of war towards them?

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

You can't declare war on him, that rule was from an earlier design that turned out to be too complicated to make sense to implement. Overlords can now ONLY attack other overlords, places where they have their dominion, and places where their god is present. Nowhere else.

As to the concerns about the water overlord steamrolling the underwater nations, my only suggestion is to make attacking you less interesting than someone else. How you do that is up to you. I guess if nothing else you may be able to get help from your underwater neighbor if you have one. But I can think of a few other ways you might go about it. We should probably have made water overlords start with less territory/fewer forts than land overlords, just because of the way water works. I don't want to suddenly change that now, so I won't. But it's something to keep in mind for potential future games.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Also, since the settings for overlords rely on their pretenders to spearhead assaults, the mobility of those pretenders is a major issue. I would expect to see an amphibious chassis from Baalz, instead of the Kraken.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Well, really, all the kraken needs to go on land is an amulet of the fish. Not sure that's really a major deterrent.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Personally, what I would do is throw myself on his mercy and beg to become a vassal. Make it more advantageous for him to leave you alive, maybe offer to pay tribute if it makes the difference. I only partially speak tongue in cheek, I'd expect the best way to play a normal in this game early on is to try and line up a sponsor (or maybe more than one you can play off each other!). Personally, I'd love to have a vassal or two who could come in and storm capitals after I crack them. This is a fun dynamic in a "backstabbing encouraged" game.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Damn. And here I was planning on making that exact proposition to the first competent normal nation player I'd encounter in-game with my best "I will make an offer you can't refuse" impersonation. Baalz, by laying out the obvious you're taking out all the fun of terrorizing these people. :p

But yes, the game setup is quite juicy in setting the stage for some classical game theory experiments. Just google for prisoner's dilemma and tragedy of the commons for a few thought experiments.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

The Lord Of The Void Needs No Games To Ensure Terror In Those Who Contemplate His Existence. Foolish Indeed Is The Child Who Believes There Is Less To Fear Once The Monster Emerges From The Shadows.

[edit]
Doh, stupid forums chopped my thematic all caps texts. :(

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Yeah, the forum auto-correction is real female dog at times. But,

ALL SHALL BURN

works at least.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

hi, i'm eriu, i'm trading mercenary work for shields :-p

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Hi, i'm jotunheim. I'm selling my services to the highest bidder.

Have a nation giving yours problems? Need some military muscle a little far afield from your current deployment? Overlords - some normal giving you problems and your pretender has better things to do? We're the giants for the job!

Please PM with your proposal and we can discuss payment options. Cash, gems, and items or combinations thereof are all considered viable methods of payment.

Should we end up at war with someone resulting from something other than contractual engagement, we can be bought off for what we're sure will be a modest fee.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Since CBM 1.6 is out now, we will definitely be using that. If you haven't done so already, feel free to download it and play around with your nation under game settings. I guess that would be a bit harder for an overlord though. Once the game is ready to start I'll make a mod changing the gatestones, until then it really doesn't matter that they are unaltered. With CBM making such sweeping changes and incorporating both no gem gens and parts of UWGIM, we will not be using either mod, for simplicity's sake (there are potential mod clashes with cbm that I don't want to have to deal with).

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

I suspect the fee will be... we won't kill you.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Let's get it started!

Actually, I can't even see why you others are playing against an Ashdod Overlord, but hey, you gotta play if you want to win, eh?

That said, let's get it going. Ashdod is getting hungry.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Did thedemon finish the map without telling me? Anyway, the game will begin as soon as I have the map and have time to set things up. So far that has not happened. I've also not had much time to spend on irc as of late so I am a bit out of touch with how the map is coming along. I'll see if I can visit a bit today/tomorrow, depending on how you count.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Is it just any random map if suitable size, with five predefined empires for the overlords? Or do you need the start locations spread in some special/interesting way?

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

More or less. I need the predefined overlord empires, a lake for the underwater nations to play in, and I wanted all overlords to have at least one normal nation in between them and all other overlords.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

i believe thedemon was planning to use the civ4 map editor to help him make it pretty but he was supposed to do it a week ago and i haven't heard from him at all in a week... but he's been getting his forge turns in....

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Vanheim is now considering non-aggression pacts, alliances, trade, and strategic military coordination. PM me with any offers.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

And how will Vanheim view the act of blood sacrificing with respect to treaty members?

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Well, I hate to say this but I think I'm going to have to make the map. I haven't heard from thedemon in quite some time, and I don't think I can wait any longer before getting this done. That said, I'm pretty busy these days. If anyone else is inclined to make the map, it would be a great help. However, if I haven't heard from anyone by tomorrow about it I will just start working on one myself.


I don't have any nice map editors on my computer right now, and I'm not much of an artist. So any map I make will either be a random map, or an alteration of an already existing map if I think I can make one work. Most likely it will be a random map. It will take me a few days, but I should be able to get it done within a remotely reasonable timeframe.

Re: Overlords - Game Thread. (Awaiting map creation)
 

Sounds good, wish I could help rdonj--never made a map though and I don't really have time to learn, my schedule is a bit full of late.

As far as blood sacrificing: all aspects of treaties will be negotiated on nation to nation basis--last I checked there was no Geneva convention type agreements (game rules aside), and we the followers of Odin are not about to institute such frivolities.