Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Now, there is one flaw in this logic. Well, other than everyone should, in theory, try to win, not just skip turns waiting for the inevitable end. What you should and what you shouldnt is not defined indeed.
Let me try to explain.

1) Nobody likes to gang on Ermor, especially early in the game, because Ermor is damn hard and it dominions makes sure you will only get wastelands after all your (wasted) efforts.
2) Unchecked, a well-played Ermor almost invariably becomes one of the major forces.
3) Usually, there's another well-played strong nation.
4) They declare war on each other.
5) If you fight a well-played Ermor alone, you are more or less doomed. Any losses you inflict on him, he just shrugs off as more undead rise from the graves. 200, 400, 600 undead killed in one combat mean nothing to him. Any losses he inflicts on you are painful. And its hard to counter darkness + rigor mortis, you know... because solar brilliance, the only counter to darkness, also blinds your own troops making them useless. And its harder to cast. :)
6) Most likely, Ermor will emerge victorious in the end. And nobody else will be in a position to challenge him, so its game over.

Against any living nation, you will stand a chance because its a matter of diplomacy and skill. Against Ermor, when he kills his only rival, you can only give up.
I have tried explaining it in another game, and was laughed at. Well, lets see how you laugh when Ermor kills Dimaz. :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

No, I agree, ermor has probably an 80% or greater chance to win this game at this point. However, I don't really think that gath being the victor in the battle between the two of them would really make much of a difference in the long run. Gath is sort of ridiculously strong right now and growing stronger. And ermor is the only nation bordering him that has even the remotest chance of killing him 1 on 1, midgard is a shambles, and MAN is the only other nation bordering him.

Ermor is bordered by just me (jomon) and gath, and together we could probably kill ermor and divide the spoils, so to speak. Then gath would proceed to walk all over me/everyone else and win the game, unless someone has a magnificent trick hiding up their sleeve (I am not this person). I don't think I'd be able to defeat either gath or ermor one on one at this point, and I think finding help in killing either of those two monsters would prove to be a near impossible task this game, as there are just not many people who border them and the few that do really don't have much opportunity to harm them.

Then there is another reason that ermor is going to win, and that is that I am playing this game very, very casually and can't really be bothered with the normal sorts of details that help win games. Such as attacking ermor when he's weak trying to kill off pythium (and then being ravaged by gath once he finds JOMON living in an ermorian wasteland...) or attempting to expand into neighbors and creating a powerful, single state instead of a collection of three modestly powerful nations in the same space. Whether I won or not, someone would have. Instead, being a peace-loving hippie at heart, I organized the Alliance to Save Lizards from Fishmen and ruined the chances of another would be power that could have possibly united the northeastern quadrant and formed a powerful enough nation to maybe stand up to ermor or gath. And like me, no one else up here in the northeast seems to be much of a warmonger ;).

So, ermor or gath. And I am betting on ermor as he is at the point already where he should have near-limitless chaff, even if his research is not so hot.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Very interesting arguments. However Gath is very strong as is and getting stronger every turn. Led by an expert player that I respect based on bitter experience it is currently #1 in power balance.

True, I wish to change that for my own selfish reasons ;) If I fail to act now then it's game over - Gath wins. So, more or less, this conflict is mandatory.

Now, don't forget that chaff doesn't win games. It's gems and research that do. So 600 undead are nothing compared to mind hunts, or RoS, or SCs etc. Ermor is way behind on research so it may look scary but it's true offensive power is severely limited. Had I been in Gaths position I estimate that I'd have killed Van and then Ermor w/o real difficulty.

Hey, if enough players want it I could consider keeping the NAP with Gath and just let him win :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

In 1 on 1 war I think I'll be able to win. In fact, I was more or less preparing for it since discovering of Ermor as a neighbor. But, unfortunately, Midgard decided to interfere and I made some mistakes during this war, which slowed me down, so now my forces are rather scattered and now I can continue with Midgard or switch to Ermor, not both. OK, I see that no one is going to join here, so probably it'll be another win for Ermor.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Nah, I'd rather let the scenario play itself out and see who comes out on top. But if we're already sure we know who's going to win I guess we could call the game if you and gath really wanted :P

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

If we did all that then what's the point of playing anyway?
Just calculate player_experience*f1+nation_power_rate*f2+whatever and whoever comes first wins the game, on turn 1 :D
Now there's a grain of truth here so I don't ridicule, just pointing out that such an argument can spoil games depending on how soon it's made.

The game is like a story unfolding as we go. Drama and tragics, heroic deeds and betrayals all mixed. So Gath jumped Ulm and then Van. One practically dead and the other 3/4 of the way to the graveyard. No wonder Ermor is interested in joining the party ;)
Being last in research by a big margin means Ermor is not a top notch killer but rather a stupid mean-looking bully. Taking on Gath may well prove the (real) death of Ermor. Come-on Van, hold on mate so we at least stand a chance :up:

Go figure, perhaps Pan would come out the better from all this exchange or perhaps the hungry sharks would tear at bleeding Gath so Ermor gets all pain but no gain :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Is it even possible to have LA Ermor in the game w/out drama?

Oh, and Gath didn't really jump Ulm, Ulm foolishly attacked Gath when they didn't see any giants.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

right. and Van has declared war on Gath as well. Hey, and now I broke my NAP with Gath.
Would I end up as they did?- Oh my, I may have made a mistake. :doh:

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Well there are just three possibilities, as far as I can tell from my experience.

1) Ermor is led by a newbie.
2) Ermor is led by an expert player, but his neighbours know they have to unite against him.
3) Ermor wins.

:)

Of course, Gath is also a very special nation in LA, being the only nation able to recruit quite decent SC. So perhaps... perhaps... things may go differently this time.
But Dimaz and me, well, we are really tired of games following the third route. There are only so much times same scenario can be enjoyable. :) Ok, I'll leave you to your sheming now, sorry guys.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Well, that's one perspective. My perspective is that I attacked you in response to your implied threat. While I'll grant you that I may have misinterpreted your original intent, the fact remains that I reacted to the threat I believed you presented at the time. In retrospect (as you've noted) it would have been wiser for me to let you and Ermor duke it out and bide my time.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Often it's preferrable to join a war as a defending side.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Now that's ridiculous. I already lost half of my SCs without any significant casualties to Ermor, and now without any reason Jomon attacked me. You want easy victory for Ermor, you'll get it.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Oh my you were so right...

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

I told you I was playing this game for fun, not to win :). Me and ermor have been very friendly the whole game, so it's not exactly sudden. I've been intending to attack you for... 6-8 turns now. There are other reasons as well which I won't go into. But this is NOT random like sciencepro's r'lyeh.

Maybe if we had done a bit more diplomacy things might have gone the other way. You and midgard are the only people in the game I DIDN'T tell I was going to attack you (okay I lied, I didn't tell atlantis either).

Heh, I wonder how much hate I'm going to get for this.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

From me? No hate. - this is enough for me, thanks.

Have fun.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Sigh. But the outcome is still the same... you become other player's willing vassal, carrying him to victory.

Giving him an unfair advantage over another player, if you wish. For your fun you spoil the fun for Dimaz. And its rather unsportsmanlike.
You dont think so?

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

2rdonj
Just one more thing. I can't understand why you think you cannot win this game. Without your interference, the most probable scenario (as I see it, and WL wrote me the same thing some time ago (however as I know he knew all along about your plans, I'm not sure about anything anymore)) was that me and Ermor draw ourselves into very long and fruitless war while you can expand in the northwest and eventually become the #1 power.
Anyway it's too late now.
Have fun.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

While this is certainly a fair possibility for me and I maybe could go on to win the game if I played for it, I hate to attack nations I've done diplomacy with. TC and I are NAPed, and he is still removing atlantis from the land as per old arrangements (it's also questionable whether I could actually kill him as he is playing a strictly better nation and is not that much weaker than me in most categories). Me and c'tis are still technically in a mutual protection alliance against atlantis, and while I could kill him it would not be worth the pain. Especially having to deal with atlantis, I want no part in chasing fantomen out of the water :P. Ermor and I have been NAPed since way back when ermor was at war with pythium. This leaves me with no one I desire to make war on up in the northeast, and further I know I will never declare war on them. Why? Because we are perfectly content to let one another exist.

On the other hand, you are stronger than me, larger than me, and the entirety of diplomatic relations we've had this game was me giving you one item for some gems. To me this is a good target :P While it is true that this is not the optimum choice for my nation, it is the optimum choice for me given my personality and playstyle. When ermor asked for my help against you, my friendly sort of personality and the fact that you are big, scary, and exactly the sort of target I like to attack won out over my sense of self-preservation and my knowledge that whichever one of you wins this is likely to win the game.

Further, I came into this game while burning out on dominions because wraithlord invited me. I decided if I was going to play I would do so relaxed, laid back, and not worry so much about winning or playing competetively. Otherwise I probably would never have chosen to play jomon. I had a good early expansion which I completely squandered due to the fact that I really couldn't care to try to win a war against any of my very friendly neighbors and my decision to prevent c'tis from being killed by atlantis. I don't really want to deal with killing wave upon wave of undead while I march through a useless wasteland with no food either.


Kuritza - No, I don't think what I am doing is unsportsmanlike. I am merely playing what seems to me to be the best choice to make at the time. I am not a competitive person, at all, I tend to play more as a spoiler, trying to bring down whichever nation is the strongest at the time (this was gath) rather than trying to actually win games. I don't have the patience or discipline to go through and actually win a game, and I know it. I tried it once and hated the game so much I didn't want to touch it and eventually pawned that game off on another player. So I play more to experiment and figure out if things will work how I think they will.

I am also NOT ermor's vassal. I see a vassal as being something much different than my arrangements with ermor make me out to be. Being someone's vassal requires a certain level of subservience that just does not exist in our relationship.

Besides, pan still has a decent chance of victory from what I can tell. It's not quite over yet.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

So you spoiled this game for one competitive player to help another competitive player win the game, and you think its a fair and sportsmanlike thing to do.

I have no more questions, thank you. :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

You lost half of your SCs already?- But you only lost two of them. How come?
I think I was just somewhat lucky on first rounds of war. I also think that you are underrating your own nation. I told you that 1:1 we'd be dragged into a long attrition war but I was more like putting on a bold face in hopes of deterring you from attacking me.
I only declared war on you b/c Van was close to being wiped out, so I came to help him. Then you made a brilliant diplo move and signed a NAP with him - freeing you to annihilate me at your leisure.

I think you're exaggerating my strength to make everyone scared witless of me. I'm 100% sure I haven't even remotely seen what you have going. Everyone has a huge research lead on me. So while I bring tons of chaff to the field you or anyone else can counter that with high end summons and spells.

As for Jomon's help it was planned ages ago. If he wants to use this war to get larger and bigger he can do just that. However that's not the point - We both are sticking to our plan, word and agreements. Said plan may result in our demise or in your defeat.
After that - to each his own.

Last, I did all in my power to stop this war after your NAP with Van and you know that. You decided to follow through and now, alas, there's no turning back.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

That's a load of crap. You judge him w/o being a part of the game and with bias from past experience. If I were in his shoes I'd have done the same with the only distinction that I'd be more hungry and passionate about winning after that. Would you then tell me the same?

My Ermor in this game is not that overpowering. I'd have no problem wiping it out had I been controlling Gath. It's way way back in research and chaff can only get you so far.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Well, not exactly half, but not exactly two.
I think I had to prepare my SCs to fight Midgard, not Ermor. And I hadn't time to switch everything to new style. You can call it luck. I call it bad planning from my side.
I made no brilliant moves, it was the only way for me to not being wiped out in 5 turns. And I lost non-negligible part of income in the process.
I see that everyone was scared way before I started to exxagerate your strength :)
That's partially true, but Gath is the last among them (not taking into account Midgard due to obvious reasons).
However you knew that Jomon will help you, with that knowledge I'd definitely cancel our war. So you didn't want to stop it, after all, all you had to do is to say that it won't be 1-on-1 war for me, without even mentioning who is your ally.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

I do not like games ending in a foregone conclusion. In the case of this game, it was a foregone conclusion that gath was going to win even if ermor attacked him. I feel no shame in attacking the leading player to prevent their obvious impending victory and gath was quickly nearing the point at which he would be completely unbeatable.

Of course you are going to point out that that puts ermor as the next most likely person to win the game, and that is quite possible as I've said previously. But if it comes to that I would still rather see the second-strongest nation win than the strongest one. It is more fun for me if the underdog wins, even if that underdog happens to be LA Ermor.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Yes, however gath is quickly shaping up to be the game's research leader with its astonishing recent climb in RP per turn.

I dunno about that, he didn't have a whole lot of choices for allies. It was either me, midgard or maybe atlantis. Two of those are not in any shape to be waging war against you. Fantomen hasn't been able to recruit from her capitol for so long now it's not funny, and you just finished beating midgard bloody. That only leaves me relatively intact and strong enough to do a decent amount of damage to you. Saying he had an ally would have been as good as telling you who it was. I'm surprised you didn't figure it out last turn anyway, after I took aethyr's province.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Careful with your wording please. I didnt call anyone names in *this* thread, and surely I didnt say anything disrespectful about you, hmm? :)
I make my judgement about this game being the one who played it while Dimaz was away, and who has received all turns ever since. I know enough about this game.
And of course, I do know enough about Dominions in general, LA Ermor strength in particular, and your own capability not in the least - to say that you are the only possible winner of this game now. If time will prove me wrong, send me a letter (I think I'll stop reading these forums after Lapis and Setsumi games end) and I will post my amends in this very thread.
But I think this game will now become yet another proof that LA Ermor is still a very special nation that should be treated with caution. Time will show.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

I was keeping to tell myself that you're going to grab some border Ermor lands or attack Midgard. Seriously, I was really unprepared that after all the crap that happened in Setsumi thread someone wants to repeat the same scenario.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Yes. Sorry about wording. No disrespect intended. However wrapping an insulting or demeaning phrase in nice words doesn't make it any less so and that's how I interpreted your messages to rdonj.

About LA Ermor winning this game, the current situation if far from guaranteeing any such thing. At this point that's just propaganda aimed to get everyone to fight me so that Gath would win :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

I didnt insult Rdonj, just offered him to think about his actions from other players perspective.

My words are propaganda, your words are propaganda, and the truth is, as usual, out there. Strangely enough, when it will be revealed, it will match my words. Why? Because LA Ermor is such LA Ermor. :)

I repeat my promise to post my amends here if it won't.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

"
Well, not exactly half, but not exactly two.
"
Still didn't check current turn. How many did you lose?

"
I think I had to prepare my SCs to fight Midgard, not Ermor. And I hadn't time to switch everything to new style. You can call it luck. I call it bad planning from my side.
"
Hey, I was trying to be generous with you. Don't be so harsh on your self.

"
I made no brilliant moves, it was the only way for me to not being wiped out in 5 turns. And I lost non-negligible part of income in the process.
"
You know, this whole NAP was not really natural. Think nation C is being mauled and nearly killed by B. Then A comes to help C and C goes and signs a NAP with B. Strange. right?

"
I see that everyone was scared way before I started to exxagerate your strength :)
"
Not true.

"That's partially true, but Gath is the last among them (not taking into account Midgard due to obvious reasons).
"
common, you're closing the gap like a devil and has a what, twice or more lead on me?

"However you knew that Jomon will help you, with that knowledge I'd definitely cancel our war. So you didn't want to stop it, after all, all you had to do is to say that it won't be 1-on-1 war for me, without even mentioning who is your ally."
Partially true. Jomon wasn't and isn't in my pocket. Until I got a final confirmation I didn't know whether he'd live by his word or betray me like Van did (after I come to his help for crying out loud).

Look Dimaz, what are you trying to achieve here?- Make everyone fight me by spreading propaganda?- If so, I guess you're doing a good job. It's legit but I will try to point out any half truths or exaggerations you put.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

I did have the setsumi thread in mind while we were planning this. I knew there would be no way to avoid drawing comparison, and that there might be a bit of drama as a result. I still stand by my belief though that gath is and was the strongest nation and that without intervention you would have won no matter what anyone else did. Now I think there is at least some doubt as to the final outcome, which again I find preferable.

I was really worried my attacking that province would be a dead giveaway. Especially after my conversations with aethyr about it. Unfortunately my feisty little can openers didn't get a chance to take a crack at your SCs this turn :(

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Dimaz, I now took a loot at the turn. You've got to be kidding me?- I counted on our borders something like 5 armies of yours, each led by anywhere from 2-4 kohen SCs + backup mage cadre.

Only now I realize how lucky I got on first round. To tell the truth I've no idea how to stop all these armies.
When first I realized about the NAP you signed with Midgard I was sure I made a mistake coming to his help. Now that I see some of your raw might I am sure I was barely there in time to stop you.
Also w/o Jomons help I'm toast :)

You can tell it anyway you like but these are the facts and my turns are saved so after the game is over it can all be validated.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Some thugs + several hundred undead + rigor mortis maybe? Hmm.... I dunno... Darkness? Ghost grip spam? I can think of a dozen ways to stop such armies as Ermor. Judging by graphs, research wont be a problem very soon. :)
Zeldor also complained that poor, weak Ermor chaff cant deal with teleporting SCs. Then, of course, it turned out that Rigor Mortis is still there, in the spellbook.

By the way, such rethorics... 'now that I see your raw might... we stopped them just in time...' - I believe it was used by every aggressor who cared about his public image over the history of mankind. :)

So now it's both propaganda and trying to gauge how far am I from rigor mortis and darkness? ;)

Yes, thank you pointing the aggressor thing out. You caught me red handed, I was reading all this in the practical guide to the modern aggressor, it's all there in the PR chapter :D

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Sorry guys I'm not following your very interesting discussion, I recently got some important task to do on work. As to what I wanted when posted here, well first I was almost sure that I want to turn AI and let you all have fun, I'm not so sure now. That's all.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

About my army size, wow, and you dare to say I'm exxagerating??? I can tell you the exact count of my kohen SCs if you are so interested, and it's less than your minimal estimate. Also practice says that in the current equip they are not so useful against your hordes, right?
Anyway this 'propaganda' from both sides doesn't change anything. I just hope you have fun, because I'm not.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Look Dimaz. You see things from your end and I mine. I feel bad that you feel bad b/c this is not real war. It's a game and I value friendship above any given game. Now you played your cards and I mine. I think you are overpowering and you think that I am. Now we are locked in war. No amount of argument or complaints will change that.
I was having some fun until now, but knowing that a fellow player ,that I value and respect, is upset is not my idea of fun.

Honestly, what would you have me do?- Do you want me to surrender the game?- Would that make you feel any better?

Bickering over game moves is tiresome and makes me start hating the game b/c it feels more like a chore than actually fun. Oh, maybe I'll make it my last diplo game. The RAND games are so blissfully quiet.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Yep.
Well, I think I calmed down a bit. Now I looked in detail through my turn and see how you managed to kill/scare my thugs and I have even more concern, but in general I feel better. I don't think I'll be able to win this war, but I'll continue fighting. Maybe I'll have some fun after all, since this is the only reason to play the game in the first place.
2rdonj I now think I understand your point, and while I certainly disagree with it, you have your right to play as you wish and have fun.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

What an intersting turn of events. Although it will most likely mean our destruction, Midgard hereby cancels its NAPs with both Ermor and Jomon.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Given that the terms of our NAP agreement stated we were to not fight each other until either we or ermor were destroyed, I think it might be a good idea to come up with terms for when we are actually allowed to attack one another :D

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Indeed. :D

We should come to a mutually agreed upon set of conditions.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Oh, I know. I've been keeping that in the back of my head at all times. I was beginning to wonder just how many people remembered :)

I agree with your terms, they don't seem unreasonable to me.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Aethyr, all's fair in love and war but I gotta to tell you I ain't seen the like of what you did yet.
You were on the brink of death when Gath rolled over you and back then you did not object much to me coming to your help ;)
I could have and indeed should have waited for Gath to finish you but I really wanted to help you since I perceived you as the poor underdog. I actually declared war on Gath way before I felt ready for it, I literally rushed to your help.
Then, the minute I declared war on Gath you went and signed a secret NAP with him. Then when I was shrewd enough to smell the stink you came clean and was promising me that it's ok, you will not attack me. Of course you won't since all I wanted to do is help you...
Only to break your word in an instant now. Wow, that's low.

I don't mind if Dimaz wins but I'd be damned if I won't do my best to bring my undead minions in position to spank your traitorous vans :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Wow, even more drama here :) I see everybody tries to have as much fun as possible out of this game :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

I propose a toast to all but mainly to Pan who's smart enough to let all have at each other.
:cheers:

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

*raises a glass*

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

@ WL, and the "fiddler" plays on...:smirk:

Re: Pan's involvement, I hope he does choose to enter the fray as the evil Ermor/Jomon alliance must be opposed! :)

For that matter, TC, C'tis, you had better rethink your priorities because you are cetain to be next. This is your lone opportunity to avoid the enevitable.

Death to the tyrants! :D

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

Now, now. C'tis and TC have nothing to fear from me. C'tis is still under my protection, inasmuch as I can provide it, and TC has nothing to fear from me so long as he stands by the oaths we have sworn to one another. Our northern cousins are fine and noble warriors, whom he have a great deal of respect for. No northeastern power need fear the might of jomon, for it is directed straight at the hearts of the great enemies, Gath and Midgard. No northwestern power need fear the might of jomon either for that matter, as our reach is not so great!

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

The weekend was a bit busy and I want to test some things but I'm not sure I'll have enough time today, can we add 24h delay to this turn? I'll do my best to send the turn today.

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

done :)

Re: Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl, running
 

First, it's actually the piano that I play :D

Second, the tyrants are those man eating blood sacrificing giant savages who not so long ago ravaged your lands unopposed ;)

Seriously though this drama has perhaps gone too far. I was upset at the time and probably retorted too sharply. I still don't understand that rapid side switching but I respect your judgment.
You should know though that you're in a lose lose situation. If I win you lose and if Gath wins you lose (or some such ominous declaration meant to despair you ;) )