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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
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Or bear wizards! On a more serious note you're doing some great work, I'm slogging though a .dm file for my EA Machaka mod atm (only 7 months late!) and it really takes it out of me, but yeah like I said great sprites and great ideas so far, looking forward to the finished one. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Hmm, it turns out that my plan to have all wraiths spread dominion like a prophet might not work in conjunction with #dyingdom. Even bolstering the Witch King to a domspread of 3, he doesn't really improve dominion. I will assume that it is one of the things blocked by #dyingdom.
I've added in Ringwraith multiheroes. All Nazgul (the Witch King included) will have an overall magicboost of 2. The Witch King's starting paths are S1D2 now, to get him up to the S3D4 I wanted. Each Ringwraith has D1 +100% FAEDB, meaning that they'll have either 3 death and 3 of one of fire, air, earth, or blood, or they'll have 4 death. Most of their stats are the same as those of the Witch King, or only slightly worse, but they are not immortal (though that may change... it WAS really hard to permanently kill any ringwraith, but the Witch King has immortality to represent Glorfindel's prophecy about him). Other heroes and multiheroes I'm thinking about: The Great Goblin - Would be a pretty strong blood mage and priest, I think, as well as having some pretty good thug options. The Great Goblin lived in the Misty Mountains, just as Angmar does, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to create a connection there. Possibly a named Balrog. Balrogs, however, are going to be extremely strong summons from the early age. Getting this hero early on would probably make you a complete steamroller with the Witch King, a pretender god, and a balrog SC... I probably shouldn't. When I make them, Balrogs will be powerful death and fire mages, with randoms possibly coming from astral, earth and blood. Wight King - The last Dunedain king of Rhudaur, raised and given sorcery after his slaughter at the hands of the wild-men of his kingdom. Probably awe in addition to his fear aura. Priestly powers with some death magic seem appropriate. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
I've been very sick recently and haven't had much chance to play with the mod, but I do have a suggestion. Remove the reinvigoration from wolf riders and reduce encumbrance to 4. The reason cavalry has a fixed level of encumbrance is because the mount is getting fatigue, not the rider (or at least this is my understanding of that particular mechanic). Since it is the orc that's supposed to have the reinvigoration rather than the wolf, it doesn't really make sense for them to have it. Also, in the current implementation wolf riders are more or less e9 sacreds for no design points or bless requirement with their extremely heavy armor and low effective encumbrance.
Also, I think non-immortal nazgul is probably best. It makes the witch king extra special and having several free, powerful immortals seems overkill. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Sure, I'll give that a try. Do you think they'll really be a viable choice after that?
Also, I realized that one effective way to give Angmar a bigger army and still require them to pay for it with their early gains is by having national spells that summon the recruitables, just in numbers. I think a "Command the Pits" spell that gave you 12 snaga goblins for 1-2 gems would create the teeming masses of goblins that I'd envision for the nation. They would have the same upkeep, but you'd bypass their initial recruitment and resource costs. Also, the ability to lay down a few of these spells while under siege would be very scary, since an essentially unguarded fortress could be made to have hundreds of tiny little medium infantry scampering around everywhere in a couple turns. I don't really want the snagas to compete for the gems that would be used for the wraith summons when I make those, so I'll probably make it a blood spell. This will allow really massive armies of goblins to be running around, while the orcs and angmar humans form an elite core of the forces. This is perfect. My only worries are to a) prevent this option from being completely overpowered, and to b) allow the snagas en masse to be a moderately effective idea throughout the mid-game also. Is there some way to restrict a spell to being cast in a mountains province? Doesn't really make sense for goblins to just be springing up out of the plains. Also, I'm working on adding summons for Barrow Wights. I'm thinking that S1D2H1 is good for them. Conjuration 4, probably. Passable combat stats, with fear +0, cold aura, and ethereality, probably rusty equipment. How many death gems would someone expect to pay for that? Somewhere between 8 and 15 is my guess. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
12 snaga for 2 blood slaves would be insanely cheap. I would suggest no fewer than 1 slave per snaga, to be comparable to normal spells. I don't know exactly how much they should cost offhand, but take a look at the blood spells in skaven, or things like crossbreeding to get a feel for what they should think about costing. Also if you make them summonable like that they should cost even less. Say 4 or 6 gold, but with an artificial resource hike to make them less recruitable earlier. Just leaving the gold costs on the summons should be enough to keep them from becoming overpowered. Although that will make them much less attractive to use also.
Well, there are definitely spells that can only be cast in mountains such as jomon's yama no kami, but I don't know if there are any that you could copy to summon troops. No idea how much the barrow wights should cost, I'd have to actually see them first. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
1 slave per snaga?! These goblins aren't particularly effective. Bone fiends come at 9 fiends per 3 slaves, and they have good hitpoints, attack, defense, and 2 attacks at about the same damage. Square by square, they're very comparable. I don't think they'd be worth any more than 2:1, and I think even that is stretching it. You can only actually get blood magic with your cap-only mages anyway, and they have to perform the double duty of hunting and summoning. The slaves are worth comparatively more for Angmar than for other blood nations because of the relative lack of blood mages.
Edit: didn't notice bone fiends were size 3 so the square-by-square comparison isn't exactly right. Imps, however, are a reasonable comparison. Less armor and damage, encumbrance, WAY bigger defense, flying, fire immune, banishable are the differences. Imps weigh in at 5 per slave... I'll try 12 snaga per 6 slaves, because I like to err on the side of caution, but I suspect it won't be a good enough option for people to actually use it. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
As recruit everywhere mages really suck at battlefield magic, I think you can rebalance it with other advantages. Many base game nation with bad recruit everywhere mages have gorgeous other options. Formoria is a good example I think.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Uh, what's the good alternative open to Fomoria to make up for their mages? Unless you mean the Fomorian Kings...
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Morrigans. And Wrath of the Morrigans.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Sorry, I'm still pretty sick and kind of gave a price without really thinking it through. However while it is true that snaga are not that amazing, they also aren't completely terrible either. Using the price of imps as per the summon imp spell does not really work. All combat summons are much cheaper than summon spells that permanently give you units. It's just not a fair comparison. If you want to look at the cost of imps, you have to look at horde from hell or infernal forces. Horde from hell summons a devil (at 3 slaves, which is crazy cheap) and a bunch of imps, at 44 slaves for 25 units. That's a bit over 1 slave per imp. Anyway, going with a 2:1 ratio sounds reasonable.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Hahaha, goes to show how often I play blood nations. So, Summon Imp isn't a ritual, huh? Yeah, you're right about that not being fair then.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Oooh, very nice. You might want to keep the Witch-King just S3D4 and not have a magicboost, especially since prophetizing him gives you an H5 guy off the bat.
The spellcasters definitely got enough of a jump now--I keep waffling about whether they're worth sacrificing design points on a bless for(definitely at least a tasty rainbow) You might want to consider giving them a slightly smaller starting army--right now what they get is enough to blind-attack first turn with only one or two losses. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
It seems like orcs and goblins should have the same (probably 100) darkvision? Is the difference a balance consideration or a flavor consideration?
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Flavor. Snaga goblins were the type of orcs that lived in Moria. Slightly smaller and better adapted to a life in complete darkness.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
Barrow Wight (Conj 4, requires 2D1S costing 10 death gems for now; the magic paths available to it are 1D1S +100% WDSB, so one in four can recast the summoning spell):
http://i49.tinypic.com/10ohfs2.png So far, they've been quite capable thugs in my tests. Magic duel will bring them down right quick, though. And, with that, I'll be updating the download to include the three spells I've added as well as some of the balance changes people have suggested and I've made. The three spells are: Command the Pit - 6 blood slaves for 12 snaga goblins. Raise Barrow Wight - 10 death gems for 1 barrow wight commander. Enrage Uruloki - 15 fire gems for a remote attack of a huge dragon that flies off after it fights. I haven't posted stats for the dragon because I don't have an original sprite for it for now. I'm using the red dragon pretender sprite. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.51 available
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The barrow wight cost looks fine for now, they're probably more or less equivalent to shura at present with added vulnerability to magic duel making it kind of painful to equip them. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Enrage Uruloki seems rather underpowered--half the time it just flies into melee and gets instagibbed, and even when it isn't acting dumb it isn't very effective, even against province defense. Awe +0 (or fire shield) and a melee AOE-3 fire attack seem thematic and rather justified.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
The spell isn't exactly what I wanted it to be. However, I'm surprised that the dragon isn't being effective for you. 18 protection with a lot of hitpoints and fear is decent on the defensive side. The protection goes up when the thing goes berserk. The offensive power of it is pretty scary, and it will TEAR UP thugs with moderately high DEF and thugs of pretty much any protection level.
Initially, I wanted it to fly in and attack, then SIT there if it won, just waiting to defend its territory. I'd be willing to increase the HP, Att, Def, or even Prot (a little), in order to make the dragon fairly competent. Also, I sort of just quickly gave it weapons. I might give it 2 claw attacks and make its fire breath have Str range instead of Str/2 and increase the AoE. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
I think I was unlucky in my first half-dozen casts of the thing. Further testing has been much better--it can at least take out 10 province defense most of the time. It just seems closer to the power of Call of the Wild than that of Ghost Riders--and given that it's a level 8 spell that requires a F3 cap-only mage and 3 separate boosters to cast...
as far as getting it to sit there afterwards...with the new patch, maybe make it under Angmar's control(still attacking randomly in combat, of course) and give it Shattered Soul 100? I have no idea what would happen, but it sure would be hilarious. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Oh, is that what shattered soul does? I've never known.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
I actually rather like the shattered soul idea, but my problem is that I can't seem to get these blasted farsummons to summon ONLY a commander. I had intended for Raise Barrow Wight to be Send Barrow Wight (since the lore says that the Witch King sent them into the barrow downs), but that didn't work either.
The problem is that when you farsummon something, you seem to name a unit type and what you get is a commander of that type plus as many units as the number of effects, but that always seems to be at least 1. If it were at all reasonable to talk about mated pairs of dragons, then it might work, except that the troop versions can then be pulled out and put on other commanders for ridiculous artillery. The nazgul multiheroes are extremely rare, but when you get one, it gives you so many more possibilities! Just ran a test game and got a D3A3 one pretty early on. Now that's a powerful thug. Finally, I was trying to think of something to spice up the Gundabad Elite Warriors, since while they became more fair when they lost their 1-handed flails, they also became more blah. So, I was thinking about some of the lesser-used one handed melee items, and thought that the armor-breaking effect of the Star of Heroes would be interesting (and damn scary) to really challenge those elite unit rushes at the beginning of the game, since so many of them rely on heavy armor to push them through. Would that be horribly broken? |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
The (messy) workaround is having the other unit just have an invisible sprite and onebattlespell something that instagibs themself. Alternately you could just say that they had some Rhudaur hunters to follow afterwards and occupy the province afterwards. The barrow wight summon is way easier, just put in a handful of dispossessed spirits as well. No biggie.
I think of everything to do to the Elite Warrior, just plain replacing their morningstar and shield with a flail and giving them full plate(with only the half helmet so their head prot is still lower) is the single thing that'll make them unique without grossly overpowering them. They'll still die to crossbows/flaming arrows/spells of all sorts(anything with a lance also destroys them), and lucky hits will still get them. They might need a price bump to like 33 gold in that case(with wolf riders going up to 50, which probably should happen anyways since they're brutally powerful). |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
I'm working hard on making sure that my Dark Lord pretender chassis is awesome. Here's a bit of a WIP image of the sprite being created:
http://i42.tinypic.com/v4o3uo.png Mostly, this is being done by loosely immitating the movie replica armor pictured here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ord_Sauron.jpg ...the shoulder blades might have to be omitted for the sake of being kind of ridiculous... Also, I've done a couple concept sketches for a Balrog, being designed as a summon for the eventual Early Age version of this nation (Angband: Battle of Sudden Flame), but that might double as a possible pretender chassis for Angmar. Balrogs are going to be *hardcore* with fear and awe baseline (being demons of terror and maia before all). The Whip of Many Thongs that all balrogs have will probably be AoE2 fire and have a couple of attacks; on a hit, the target will be entangled. I'm very hesitant to bring up this debate, but I'm unsure whether or not I want my balrogs to have wings, and if any item slots should be unavailable. Finally, I know that I want them to have fire and death magic, but I don't know what peripheral magics they should have. Suggestions welcome! |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
fort description contains illegal command
farmlandfort:down: according to modding manual, farmlandfort should be defined with command farmfort |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
So I've been playing this mod a bit in SP. I'm just wondering, does anyone else feel like this nation is kind of wasting its death gems if it's not cranking out an endless supply of barrow wights with them? They bring a lot to the nation - magic diversity, mind hunt protection, decent thugs, reasonably effective battle mages, reanimators, and h2 priests if you really need them. At conj 4 there's not much reason NOT to go with these guys over building skull mentors because they get most of the research for the same cost while being much more versatile. The magic duel weakness is still pretty bad, but you can avoid this to an extent by only using the s2 ones as thugs with pearls and a starshine skullcap and script returning on your guys if necessary. I wonder if they almost do too much for you. What do other people think?
I'm also not really sure I get the use of the elite warriors. Gundabad warriors are pretty close to as good and way more massable. In fact they're pretty much your only massable armored unit. I just don't really see the point in building elite warriors, which you can only get half the number of. For me gundabad warriors basically make elite warriors useless. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Well, you're not the only one to comment about the elite warriors vs. the regular ones, and people seemed to much prefer the regular warrior sprite (the elite is kinda crap). Maybe I'll just leave the elites out. Are the warriors good enough to recruit? I gave them a bit of a resource discount because of the salvaged nature of their armor, but it might have been too much.
As for the barrow wights, I do want them to be used, and I think they have enough problems with the extra fire damage, undead, and magic duel vulnerability. You're saying they're a good deal just for the research? Hmm, probably true. With a nation as research-starved as Angmar, though, it seems like they would need SOME way out. Also, the fact that you have to summon them with the Witch King (or a pretender) until you get the 1/4 random correct is a bit of a drawback, adding onto his already-extensive list of roles. If you have a possible suggestion for toning them down, I'd be glad to consider it. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Gundabad warriors are about half the resources for a unit with more defense, more or less the same prot, more or less the same morale (due to berserk), and 2 less hp... other stats are a bit worse off, and they only have mapmove 1 instead of 2, but if I want a higher resource unit I'd generally prefer the warg riders to the elite warriors because they fatigue out less quickly.
Barrow wights aren't a good deal JUST for the research, no. You'd be better of making skull mentors if that's all you want. But there's no reason to make skull mentors because they can research, fight, forge, search for magic sites, etc as needed. They are much more versatile for basically the same cost. And they'll never get useless like skull mentors eventually will. You still want to forge lightless lanterns though. Also it's not strictly necessary to summon them with the witch king until you get the proper random if you use a skull staff, which you will want anyway eventually. The witch king can probably spare the time to summon a few though, it's certainly a better use of his time than casting arcane probing or researching. Probably making them worse at researching or unable to reanimate (not sure that's possible) would be the best "fix", but I'd rather hear back from other people first. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
My personal preference would be to simply make them more expensive. 15 or so gems wouldn't be too outrageous for them.
Gundabad warriors are pretty nice, not gonna lie. I find the flavor text between the Gundabad Warriors and the Angmar Swordsmen pretty jarring though without the Elite Warriors there. The reason the Gundabad Warrior is so nice is because he has the most 'bang' for your resources, which is almost always going to be your problem. People will of course buy him, because he costs even less resources than an Angmar Bowman(who by the way would still benefit from a composite bow or something--short bows just plain suck in MA) |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Yeah, for the resource cost there's really nothing on the roster that compares to the gundabad warrior, and that is what makes them so good.
By the way, the enraged uroloki would work much better if it was a commander. Then its air shield would work and it wouldn't go crazy forgetting to use its breath attack all the time. Interesting that going berserk makes it decide to fly in battle when it otherwise walks... I wonder what's up with that. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
All flying missile units walk into range if they are going to shoot.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
I cannot get enrage uruloki to do what I want. What I really want is for it to summon a neutral commander dragon who attacks, then SITS THERE after the battle to defend the province against attackers. Since neutral summons go away after they fight, I made it a friendly summon, but one who is constantly doing random stuff. Unfortunately, friendly commanders seemingly cannot be summoned alone, and it automatically puts in a troop uruloki with the commander. Not sure how to fix it.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
There's no clean way to do that. I tried the same thing with a spell that hatched a nest of nasty critters in enemy territory and if you wanted to retake the prov, you had to kill them. No luck.
I can think of some extremely messy ways of doing it. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
My slightly less messy way of doing it is just to also give you ~5 Rhudaur stalkers(or I guess just one) along with the dragon, explaining it away as the stalkers enraging the thing.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
I'd be fine with that, but I also don't know how to make the commander and the troops summoned different things.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Yeah that doesn't work. What you need is an effect which kills or transforms either commanders or troops until you get the right mix of stuff. It's doable but it isn't worth the mess.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Oh man! I thought my dominion seemed to be doing pretty well for just the few blood sacrificers I had, but I chalked it up the the excessive level of goodness that is blood sacrifice. I didn't realize that barrow wights had the domspread ability... and here I am, sitting with something like 34 of them and 7 base dominion :P No wonder my dominion is doing so well!
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
All wraiths of Angmar do. Barrow wights, multihero nazgul, and the Witch King.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Yikes. Domkill ahoy!
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
What? It's not even guaranteed spread every turn, only a god can do that. It's like each barrow wight is blood sacrificing one slave automatically each turn. It's definitely strong, but I didn't find it unreasonable in my tests. It seemed like an interesting and thematic mechanic to me. The nation is hard to attack, but one has to fight against the shadow of the enemy spreading.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
No, it's one spread per turn. It's the same as a juggernaut. At least in my experience.
Even if it weren't, I would also consider 34 extra temples to be domkill ahoy. Also blood sacs are 2 checks, not 1 like a temple. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Hmm, I swear I've seen it fail to spread its full amount, which is what made me initially think that domspread didn't work for dyingdom nations, or had a 50% chance or something like that.
Is it so unreasonable that it cannot be stopped? I want to make this into a balanced nation that can be used in MP. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Depends how much barrow wights cost :]
Domkills are very hard to defend against when they involve blood sac and domspread units. But if they have to expend significant effort on the stuff, then it isn't so much of a problem. Of course rdonj seems to indicate that he'd be massing barrow wights even without the knowledge that they domspread. So effectively you're pushing dom like crazy for free. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
IIRC, barrow-wights are little more than spirit-like agents of the Witch-King, in the common version of the trilogy. IMHO, I wouldn't have interpreted them as prophet-like dom-spreaders. The Nazgul, yeah; probably even the Balrogs.
I wonder if you have plans for an EA version? Maybe based around Morgoth and the The Silmarillion... Anyway, good job on the mod; I'm always up for Orky-goodness. :up: |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Currently barrow wights are at 10 gems per... for all the things they do right now that probably isn't enough. They're not THAT good as thugs because astral nations can kill them easily and their protection is never going to be stellar given your likely forging needs and capabilities (though they do just fine against PD, especially with ethereality). They're kind of weird because they perform a bunch of different roles all at once. At least their reanimation is only good enough for longdead skeletons and not cavalry. But it would be really easy right now to just use them as researchers who sit there the majority of the game spreading your dominion. They're easily a much better investment than juggernauts are, and much easier to research up to. Plus they can be used to form communions with each other, which could have consequences I don't quite think you intended....
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
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Should have some very interesting summons and heroes, from Carcharoth the Red Maw to Balrogs to Drauglir and Glaurung. I don't think it will need a weird dom-spread mechanic like Angmar and the LA Mordor would. Anyway, I hear the arguments that barrow wights are too versatile for their current cost. I'll increase the price a bit (maybe 12-15 gems each) and apply a research malus to them. I'd like to preserve the wraith dom-spreading mechanic, and I'd sooner get rid of blood sac, making the wraith mechanic the only way of spreading dominion. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Dark Lord:
http://i41.tinypic.com/2zj9xn6.png That's the basic chassis. I think fear and awe as a baseline is pretty powerful, but he's pretty expensive, and demon offers some counters. The magic is pretty limited, and death is not a very useful path for him to have to complement Angmar, so I think the potency of the chassis is ok. Besides, his encumbrance is probably too high to be a very good SC out of the box. The weapon "Hammer of the Underworld" is currently a magical weapon with ok stats that hits with AoE 1 and turns things slain into soulless. I'm not sure why I have that second effect, but I'm looking for something to make it interesting. Graphically, I think the legs are too bright inexplicably, so I'll probably play around with that to make it a bit better. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Not bad. I think the arm with the hammer looks a bit... odd, too. He's kind of in a fencing position right now, which I'm not sure goes so well with that hammer as a weapon. And I think it would work a bit better if the armor was darker overall. But it's a good sprite overall :)
What level of awe does he start with? The encumbrance could definitely be an issue for him as an awake SC, but he might be able to pull it off. The aoe soulless could actually be helpful to him for that by absorbing attacks so he doesn't have to. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available
Awe 0, Fear 1+death
Hmm, I see what you mean about the fencer position. Part of that is that the other hand seems like it's up for balance. Actually, I want it to be that he's making a fist with the rear hand and the fore hand is just sort of loosely holding the hammer low. I wonder how I can get that across better. Maybe the hands should be larger, too. |
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