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Link to the official FDF release (in Finnish): http://maavoimat.fi/artikkeli/-/asse...ikuttamiskykya Somewhat intelligible Google translation of the same:https://translate.google.com/transla...kya&edit-text= |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Been tracking the same, from my files from last July...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/july_..._50507161.html I haven't read my "papers" yet but I'm sure this will have been updated or soon will be. We have time to ensure this goes all the way. We've been burned game wise by contract cancellations before , the USMC w/EFV and India w/MMCRA and others from India several times, come to mind as does the ARCHER which I think still needs to be addressed. As an add on (Shows how long I maintain my files since my hiatus.) the ARCHER issue I referred to above, concerns Norway having dropped out of the program in the joint development of the system with Sweden on 06 Dec. 2013. I think we had them put in for that years patch or previous one as they were to have received 24 UNITS by the end of 2013 for Norway. Sorry haven't had a chance until the previous post brought my memory back to regional associated arty issues was made to check in on that situation. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...project-05142/ I'm more cautious about these things now because it just seems there are more pressures on defense spending now and priorities are in flux with reactions to what Russia and China are doing at any given moment. And it saves on rework as well game wise. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Don if your up against it (And you are.) no worries at all then. If you have the time though...
NORWAY/ARCHER SPA/UNITS 600 - 601/DELETE// On 6 December 2013 Norway dropped out of the program due to many reasons from financial to Sweden not fulfilling the delivery portion of the contract which was to be meant by end of 2013. All true. Sweden has just recently bought the remaining 24 UNITS meant for Norway (Each had a 24 UNIT split of the total production run of 48 UNITS.) of those 24, 12 will go into storage and they hope to find a customer for the remaining 12 UNITS. More on Norway's SPA search below. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-the-plug.html http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...project-05142/ SWEDEN/ARCHER SPA/UNITS 416 & 463/ADD/LEMUR RCWS 12.7mm w/4 Grenade Launchers (2 per side.)/200 Ready Rds. - 1500-2000 stored VICE 7.62mm./Mounted over crew cab behind driver./Has Day & Night sights w/TI/GSR /Kongsberg RWS was dropped apparently./CHANGE/UNITS 416 & 463/START DATE TO FEB. 2016 per ref. one below./Armed with BONUS rounds. For FYI, they are not considered a CM munition but a precision munition.// Sweden on it's own and stuck with the bill more or less. Note the glowing review in the last ref. by a Norwegian artillery officer. It shows how things "can turn on a dime". http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/en/news...lery-regiment/ http://www.military-today.com/artillery/archer.htm http://www.janes.com/article/63964/s...llery-purchase https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/ht.../20161013.aspx http://www.bundesheer.at/truppendien...el.php?id=1138 Norway since ARCHER as it hunts for a new SPA Platform... http://www.fsi.no/sfiles/90/14/1/fil...k-4-5-2015.pdf https://aw.my.com/en/forum/showthrea...illery-systems (Scroll to page 4.) http://www.americanmilitaryforum.com...pa-tender.562/ http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2016/08...echwin-k9.html Pics: Attachment 14613 Attachment 14614 Attachment 14615 A good way to get out of cleaning out the gutters today, tomorrow is another story!?! ;) Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
God this was aggravating forgot to "sort" my refs "A-Z" today and completely missed this...
http://www.janes.com/article/67551/e...th-south-korea http://www.janes.com/article/67827/f...om-south-korea For Finland it'll be awhile though much like it was for Sweden with the ARCHER... "Deliveries of the howitzers to Finland are due to begin during 2017, in order to begin staff training this year. Finnish conscripts are due to begin being trained on the K9 in 2019, while deliveries of all 48 systems are due to be completed by 2024. This timeline accords with previously released Finnish plans to declare initial operating capability with a new howitzer in 2020 and full operating capability in 2025." SOP: Maintenanced, Modified to customer specs (Finnish name plates would be a good idea on the pieces parts. You laugh but I've seen that out here a couple of times in delaying shipment.), Tested, Accepted, Shipped, Inspected and Evaluated in the field. Scandinavia and neighboring areas are sure is a busy place for South Korea right now! Regards, Pat :capt: |
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........already in the next patch
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You will see this in the MBT & North Korean Threads as well. I've been waiting for this data to come out since last Friday. Couldn't tell if the Pokpung-ho was mounting a new double barrelled MG or if it was a Grenade Launcher now that question has been answered. Did some work on this OOB a few years back with Don and the "resident" expert on the subject Marcello. We've had some "interesting" discussions ourselves but, I have always respected his opinions. Don't know what's happened to him but, he made me better when I first decided to start posting out here going back to the start of my MRAP Thread. It will be posted where this belongs but first I need them in my working threads.
Any information from a reliable source as this is worth it's weight in gold when it concerns North Korea. http://www.armyrecognition.com/april..._11704172.html Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
IF YOU READ THIS IN THE "PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT RUSSIAN OOB (#11)" THREAD-THIS IS COPIED OVER FROM IT.
This is everything I've been tracking for Russian SPAA/AA equipment in some cases for almost 2 years now. Pantsir-S2... Issues improved radar and detection augmented by a new missile allowing extended range and altitude. http://www.armyrecognition.com/febru..._12502152.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._12205164.html ZSU-23-4 & Tungunska replacement?... Issues they're just old and outdated. http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem..._12812151.html The next is specifically for the dedicated Arctic Defense Force (ADF) they already had the SPAA version mounting the Pantsir-S1 modified system the news here is they are also equipping the ADF with the new longer range TOR-M2 system with both mounted on the Vityaz DT-30-series all-terrain tracked carriers (ATTCs) optimized for Arctic operations. http://www.janes.com/article/69523/r...efence-systems Buk-M3... Issues pretty much the same as the above improved radar and new missile, however, the main difference here is that this is considered a completely new system vice an improved one. That's the big news here. I believe I might've posted this already in the SPA/SPAA Thread at least the second ref. http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem..._11212153.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._11312154.html Finally because it's time for lunch and getting ready for "my Monday" the TOR-M2U improved version of the well, TOR-M2... Issues this comes under much improved from the first ref. "The SAM system is capable of acquiring over 40 targets simultaneously, prioritize them and engage four of them at the same time." in the SAM world that's pretty darn good. http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe..._13009162.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi...o_2604153.html Strela replacement and SPAA for Russian Airborne troops, the Sosna-10... Issues simply "out with the old, in with the new". http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2..._10505161.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._11312155.html That pretty much covers most of it. As a reminder equipment status always noted on the equipment info refs or as otherwise noted in the preceding article. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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http://kbtochmash.com/press-eng/arti...les-eng_4.html "The export version of ADMS Strela-10 received the designation SOSNA." This one does not seem to have and official designation yet but.... • increase in combat range from 3 – 5 to 8 – 10 km; • increase in ammunition load at a launching system from 4 to 12 SAMs; • engagement not only airplanes, helicopters, UAVs and large cruise missiles, but also small-seized air attack weapons, including striking elements of high-precision weapon; • almost completely automated combat performance cycle, including detection, taking for autotracking and missile guidance. So the claim made here is it can target smart bombs......if I read this right I think we need to wait for more information before adding this to the game. I do have a bit of wiggle room to add new weapons and units but space is limited and if I add something it needs to be worthwhile to add......this would be but we have to know when it's issued before adding it also, it indicates the range for the Strela-10 is 3-5 km....the question is.....is 3km the minimum range or is that the max range under ideal and less than ideal conditions ? |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
First I'll submit any piece of equipment in either my normal patch submission or using the same general format, as I did above in Post #103 concerning the ARCHER. It's easier and no one should assume anything else I post is anything more then just FYI outside of those afore mentioned formats. This should end any further confusion as to my intentions.
Secondly I don't know what happened with the refs from my last Post #24 again above. All I did was a simple "Cut & Paste" as I've done many, many times in the past without issue concerning the opening up of the refs. :dk: Thirdly I did go back and verified those same refs did/do open up properly in the " "PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT RUSSIAN OOB (#11)" Thread Post # . So sorry for any inconvenience there as I try to figure out what happened in my last post. I'm still evaluating this equipment issue as well, I can tell you in my opinion, that I feel the Arctic based SPAA doesn't need to be in the game just based on the fact they're meant specifically for their Arctic Defense Forces (ADF) as compared to the more main and baseline units already discussed also in that thread. The other unit is the TOR-2U do we need it? Is it that much better than the TOR-2, especially when Russia has the TOR-3 NOW BEING FIELDED? I've got beyond these units at least 15 more new pieces of Russian equipment that is already, very soon will be and for the rest fielded by 2020. And we'll still have six more years for whatever comes down the pike and I'm already tracking some of that. A handful might already be in the game and will require date changes but, the majority aren't and that's just from my files. The tipping point might just come within the next two years or sooner at the rate the real world for some of these OOB's are improving current equipment, developing variants of the same (Which is different then improving it.) and just fielded new equipment. Any option to include the couple I've suggested in the past in regards to air units, or any other solution will require a lot of code and and software changes. Maybe a year or two to do that and nothing else might not be a bad idea in the long run in the near future. By then for example we'll have a better handle on the T-14, PAK-FA, F-35 and believe me I can go on and on for the top four or five OOB's in this game. Just because I haven't submitted anything in the last two or three years doesn't mean I haven't been compiling the data for said submissions at a later date. I think I've demonstrated that recently here and elsewhere already. I can count the slots as well, and seeing the rapid pace of advancement and looking and trying to figure out at my end what to do is almost like trying to "fit the square peg in the round hole". But I'm an analytical type person always have been and I guess always will be (I hate those Briggs Meyers and the like tests, (I just really wanted to be an astronaut! :D) not ranting just concerned for the future of the game here is all and where we're heading. Clarity of purpose is all I seek, even if it means "mind your own business" I can most certainly remember worse then that being said to me. Besides for you "code breakers" my usual response is FTITCTAJ! Though I would NEVER feel or respond that way to anyone out here!! :angel And I'm actually in a good mood, lost over 30 pounds, now below my retirement weight from 2002. Just making it harder for my younger co-workers to keep up with me at work and on the OTC. :p Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
These are for now just FYI issues I'm tracking, "Wish I may, wish I might...", we'll see but, in the meantime what the hell is a STRYKER doing in this Thread!?! Well find out below...
http://www.janes.com/article/73099/b...shorad-vehicle ALGERIA: Now confirmed has the Russian BUK-M2E in service, this is the tracked version.. http://www.janes.com/article/73123/a...s-buk-delivery http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html http://www.army-technology.com/proje...issile-system/ http://www.military-today.com/missiles/buk_m2e.htm Note: Whenever I can use the "ausaairpower" website I will this think tank does excellent research. And they were right about the issues with F-35 while most were still on the "ouh ra ra" band wagon. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Though refs. make a distinction between the export tracked version BUK-M2E and the 6x6 wheeled version BUK-M2EK I'm not sure why the articles are leading to the tracked version. However further digging shows it is the 6x6 version.
Though ref. 1 covers the world I use the web site because it specializes on Africa and the Middle East/Persia. Also the JANE's ref. now "working" at least off the web is indicating wheeled as well. From ref. 2... "The story did not mention the SAM system, which was mounted on a Belarusian-made MZKT 6922 6x6 wheeled vehicle instead of the tracked carriers used by most other Buk operators, including Egypt and Syria." Ref. 3 and I looked right at the "darn" thing earlier and it didn't register in my brain :doh: shows what in the lower right hand picture from the exercise? You got it. http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.ph...and&Itemid=105 http://www.janes.com/article/73123/a...s-buk-delivery https://www.dzbreaking.com/2017/08/1...-buk-delivery/ Stared right at that picture several times-"Deer in the headlights" syndrome I guess. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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I now have a new 6x6 wheeled Icon for next release. It's bound to be needed for other nations eventually
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Final conformation for Algeria from the 17th and I didn't even look here like I normally do everyday. :doh:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/augu..._81708171.html Also from DID: Finland not to start it's K9 training until 2019. They don't have the training and BSM systems in place to support them yet. "Norwegian firm Nammo A/S has come to a landmark agreement external link with the Finnish Defense Forces (FDF) to supply its newly developed artillery shells. Helsinki is the first international customer for Nammo’s 155 mm insensitive munitions, high explosive, extended range ammo (IM-HE-ER)—which has been under development since 2002 and partly funded by the state-owned Norwegian Defense Material Agency (NDMA)—which covers almost twice the distance of Nammo’s previous precision-strike artillery ammunition offerings. The ammo purchase forms part of a long-term project by Finland to reinforce the Army’s artillery capability and fire-power, which has already seen the February purchase of second-hand K9 Thunder 155 mm/52 caliber self-propelled artillery systems from South Korea. Training with the K9s will commence in 2019 following a modernization with Finnish sub-systems that include battle management, global positioning, communications and camouflage bolt-ons." Barring no developmental issues, this would push FOC to late 2019 or first half of 2020. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Land Ceptor is making its arms show debut at DSEI 2017:
http://defence-blog.com/army/land-ce...in-london.html Some basic information about CAMM (Land application) on the MBDA website: http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm/ I do not know when it is due to replace Rapier. |
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The ‘Korkut’ 35mm short range air defence system has taken part in the Turkish Army’s Atış Serbest 2017 military drill (see thumbnail).
The Turkish Army signed a contract for the purchase of the Korkut system in March 2017 and serial production started at that time. The website armyrecognition.com predicted that the first deliveries would be made in 2018: https://www.armyrecognition.com/turkey_army_artillery_vehicle_weapon_systems_uk/korkut_self-propelled_air_defense_35mm_gun_system_vehicle_tech nical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video_119 03175.html Wikipedia says the Korkut will replace the aging M42A1 Duster (obat32/unit 105): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FNSS_ACV-30 |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
And now for something new...It's probably to be fielded around late-2018/early 2019. It's called the GRKPBV90. The plan will be equip the five CV9040 mechanized battalions of the Swedish Army with eight CV90 twin 120 mm Mjolner mortar systems. Each will have a Bv 206 tracked articulated all terrain ammo carrier.
And the last para should end any continuing "what if's" concerning the STRIX, kind've like the M&M's Christmas time commercial where Santa Claus (You can believe in worse. :D) arrives to drop gifts and sees two M&M's sitting in the chair and says "They do exist!!" and passes out. Well they do exist and it seems they can still get them, which of course I've been saying for many years now. ;) What I didn't realize was the range was further than I thought at 7500m/7.5km/4.7mi. (Rounded off.) I always thought it was something just over 5000m. Again I like learning new things! http://www.janes.com/article/75278/d...lopment-emerge This begs the following two questions but, I think they do... 1. Are the Swiss armed with the STRIX as JANE's reports? 2. Will the GRKPBV90 have a direct fire capability of the ATMOS system. The next would be a great addition with it ever gets done. The important thing with the following it's still in continuing development and lately with Poland. I like systems like this, which is why once in awhile as a change of pace I'll reach into the Allies section and pull out a platoon of Italian CENTAURO's for fun. http://fighting-vehicles.com/cv90120-t/ While I'm here about a year ago I posted on the following now a prototype was shown at AUSA 2017 and this is one of the top defense industry shows. Generally if it makes it there, it's coming to a battlefield near you, well sometime down the road anyway... https://www.armyrecognition.com/ausa...ausa_2017.html If you remember a couple of weeks ago my BRADLEY crew guy "JAKE" told me they experimented with the APACHE 30mm being equipped on a BRADLEY (I commented on that in the Thread.) well, it looks like at least a modified version will be mounted on the above. I'll let him know about that when I go back to work Tue. And one last thing, I do hold back on articles or drop "hints" of things to come in the hope that I'll start patch submission work again. Health is good and have lost 40lbs in a healthy way. That's what started my issues about the same time Andy and Don were having their vacation. It's been difficult to bounce back with family and my job to find and I REALLY HATE TO USE THIS WORD, the motivation to do Patch work at this time. However due to certain other folks out here PBWIL and REDCOAT2 and Don as usual I've had the most active last few months in a longtime. I've never stopped reading my "papers" so I've stored A LOT OF DATA, many recently posted by others. With that in mind I'll try to do a better job of getting these out when I see someone else post on the same. The more evidence the better chance it has of getting in the game. A team effort is never a wasted effort. With the above in mind and if it's not too much of a bother, if these get used please let me know so I can delete them from my files. Just in my SPA/SPAA file alone I have over 150 articles not including some in a by country general bookmark that were outside of that file before I made it. I think a couple of you might've figured out what a part of my issue is also. One file for each Thread I started in the Forum. And to think I pulled all that together for a handful of years. God I don't know how Andy and Don have done it for so long? But I'm glad they have. Anyway I believe the oldest goes back to March this year and I'll hopefully have them in a proper order from as always old on top. Topic recently posted Turkish KORKUT... http://www.armyrecognition.com/march..._11603173.html https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/201...l&utm_medium=2 https://www.armyrecognition.com/turk..._11903173.html Regards, Pat :capt: |
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"Close enough" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1509472025 The Mjölner mortar system can fire the STRIX so that's how it will be set up |
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To Pibwl my apologies for &*%@! up your site name in my last.
I also should've put vacation in quotes, as some might remember it was everything but a "vacation" during most of that hiatus for Andy and Don. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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The Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency, or Forsvarsmateriell, has signed a contract with Hanwha Land Systems for 24 K-9 Thunder self-propelled howitzers with an option for 24 more.
https://www.defensenews.com/land/201...arms-industry/ The article claims the new howitzers will replace the M109A3GNM self-propelled howitzer currently in service with Norway’s armed forces. A video of the K-9 trials in Norway: https://youtu.be/IxS_KPDDwNY |
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I guess the Norweigian took a look at the Finn's K9's........
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Well to clean up my files for Finland in this thread...
First gives status of artillery at the time of this article. http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...artillery.html The second phase. http://www.armyrecognition.com/july_..._50507161.html And here we go again, another retread article I'd already posted in here, you might not like but, I don't make this stuff up. First the quote from JANE's..."This timeline accords with previously released Finnish plans to declare initial operating capability with a new howitzer in 2020 and full operating capability in 2025.". And so it goes... http://www.janes.com/article/67962/f...om-south-korea https://czncd.wordpress.com/2017/02/...m-south-korea/ https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...-korea.515044/ Note: The last ref confirms JANE's source from FDF. A capability reminder (BONUS not part of the CM Treaty.) if not entered already. I had posted this shortly after it was released in this thread. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...irst-time.html Regards, Pat :capt: |
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However, Finland used a loophole where Navy strength isn't included in the listing and coastal forces operate under Navy command. And they operate field guns and other - even mobile - artillery units. And if they're all transferred to the Coastal units then they don't exist on the OSCE listing. See: (in Finnish) http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016...29469_uu.shtml especially the image attached: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1513941311 First table compares Finnish ("Suomi") announcements to German ("Saksa") ones in 2014 and in 2016. The table rows are titled (in parenthesis the number reported in 2016): 120mm Heavy mortar (698) 122mm FH (471) 122mm SPA (34) 155mm SPA (-) 130mm FG (76) 152mm FG (24) 155mm FG (132) 122mm MRL (72) 270mm MRL (41) 227mm MRL (-) 120mm SP-Mortar (18) Two graphs below are the tank numbers and then combined artillery numbers (not including < 120mm weaponry) |
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If I may, my ref. was only discussing the Army specifically in that article and your ref. is two years newer. I have a full appreciation of the Scandinavian countries need for coastal batteries that I believe fall mostly under their respective navies. And they do (And are.) rightly need to be in the game and updated as warranted for those countries especially since they're moving towards missile systems lately. Like I said just cleaning out old files.
Happy Holidays!! Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Algeria (obat 50) confirms delivery of SR5 rocket launcher system from China. The People’s National Army of Algeria has released pictures of its recently delivered multiple rocket launchers during a live-fire military exercise.
http://defence-blog.com/army/algeria...rom-china.html Reports from November last year: https://www.armyrecognition.com/november_2017_global_defense_security_news_industr y/china_would_have_delivered_sr5_rocket_launchers_to _algeria.html https://themaghrebtimes.com/11/22/al...ket-launchers/ |
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Well Turkey finally settled on a local manufacturer to build the engines for the long delayed ALTAY tank. Another long standing program just 2 days ago has finally come to an agreement. The system is Russia's S-400 and Turkey has been looking into trying the system since IDEF 2009 in Istanbul.
The parties have finally reached an agreement for them to be bought with a technological exchange package. I feel the sales numbers will be lower than in the past, as Turkey is in the "middle" stage in deployment of it's own system. I believe it'll be ~NOV 2019 earliest before Turkey fields them. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1DC0H7 https://www.timesofisrael.com/turkey...efense-system/ https://www.armyrecognition.com/febr...e_systems.html https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-...-say-1.5464852 From ref. 3... "The S-400 entered service with the Russian Armed Forces on April 28, 2007, replacing the S-300 air defense system. The Russian Army plans call for the fielding of 18 battalions by 2020 as the backbone of its surface-to-air missile capabilities. Belarus is set to become the first export customer." Well there is a small problem with the above, the FOC+ date is all messed up now. The correct date as already in the game for Russia, was submitted on February 12th, 2011, 06:55 PM and I wonder who could've done that!?! ;) However now it's back to April 2007. So now what? Well we need to go back in time and determine whether these newer sources are correct OR have since been updated. Well before this Thread existed which was built to be more inclusive there was this Thread...Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update! I'd been tracking the S-400 for sometime from the aforementioned Thread go to Page 3/Posts #23 - #26. It's many pages back in the Threads file, however, it won't be in a few minutes. :D You'll find your answer in the last post of the below thread and where the 2007 came from. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html Regards, Pat :capt: |
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This to put things in order.
PJC :capt: |
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Japan is showing off a wheeled SP Howitzer that could replace towed guns in JGSDF service
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Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Before I start, I must say we're missing in the USA OOB the following M109A1, M109A3, M109A4, M109A5, M109A5+ and M109A7 PIM/A7 units. The compromise UNIT appears to be the M109A6 PALADIN that covers the period of JAN 1985 to DEC 2025. So who cares and why is this an issue? I have three issues that come to mind in just a few minutes of looking at the issue. OK now five after 5 minutes.
1. It's bigger and size matters. Versions up the M109A5+ used the chassis of the M113 APC. Both the M109A6 (I think.) and M109A7 (For sure.) use the BRADLEY chassis.See 2., 3. & 4. below. 2. Ammo load is different the M109A6 carries 38 rounds. The previous versions carry 36 or 28 rounds. 3. It is better protected with heavier armor and spall liners installed in the interior. 4. The guns are different the M109A6 has the 155mm/L39 (PIM/A7 might be bigger, if I remember correctly, I posted quite a bit about these current last 2 units.) the previous versions I believe ALL used the 155mm/L23 gun. 5. Also some M109A6 (And I suspect PIM/A7.) carry a 40 mm automatic grenade launcher vice 12.7mm MG. 6. ROF for M109A6 PALADIN & I believe M109A7 (PIM was dropped.) is 4 RPM for both MAX. AND SUSTAINED fire, while the previous versions ROF is 4 RPM MAX./2 RPM Sustained. With the ABRAMS issues being in a better place with at least two slots being available, in an otherwise tight OOB, I'm requesting that an intermediate 1 or 2 units be chosen from Ref. 3 below (For the USA.) as submitted for Brazil. This will allow me to fix the M109A6 PALIDAN and we can figure out what to do about the PIM later. My brain is already crunching numbers for the A6. Currently ALL USA M109A6 units are being converted over to the M109A7. I'm not doing anything with it until I get the "Green Light" to do so. I'm forced to use the M109A6 based on the units BRAZIL has gotten and will be getting per Ref. 1. USA/CHANGE/M109A2/UNIT 041/AMMO ROUNDS 36 vice 28//This was the first version to have the increased ammo allowance.// http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m109.htm BRAZIL/ADD/M109A5/COPY/USA UNIT 042/START APR 2019/MG M284 155mm/L39/ROUNDS 36/SECONDARY M2HB 12.7mm w/500 ROUNDS//This unit was the first modified to carry the larger MG. BRAZIL/ADD/M109A5+/COPY/USA UNIT 042/START JAN 2020/MG M284 155mm/L39/ROUNDS 36/SECONDARY M2HB 12.7mm w/500 ROUNDS//Improved FCS. BRAZIL/ADD/M992 FAASV/COPY/USA UNIT 343/START APR 2019//Has the ammo capacity to reload M109 Series with 93 rounds. https://www.armyrecognition.com/janu...lian_army.html http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m109.htm (See for variants.) http://www.military-today.com/artill...a6_paladin.htm https://www.armyrecognition.com/marc...ort_filey.html CHINA/ADD/SH-15/ALSO KNOWN AS SH-1A/START JAN 2019/CREW 4 to 5/MG AH-2 155mm/L52/ROF MAX. 6 RPM/SUSTAINED 4 RPM/ROUNDS ?/COMPATIBLE TO NATO and CHINESE ROUNDS/SECONDARY OPTIONAL 12.7mm MG ROUNDS ?/PROTECTION 0/IS HOWEVER AIR PORTABLE C-130 or CHINESE Y-9 TYPE AIR TRANSPORT//There just isn't much more available on this piece of equipment I can find. It is very similar AND closer to the French CEASAR then the SH-1 below. CHINA/ADD/SH-1/START JAN 2019/CREW 5/MG AH-2 155mm/L52/ROF MAX. 6 RPM/SUSTAINED 4 RPM/ROUNDS 25/COMPATIBLE TO NATO and CHINESE ROUNDS/SECONDARY 12.7mm MG ROUNDS ?/PROTECTION ARMORED CAB/IS AIR PORTABLE C-130 or CHINESE Y-9 TYPE AIR TRANSPORT//A complete SH-1 regiment includes 24 truck-mounted howitzers, 4 battery command post vehicles, one battalion command post vehicle, one meteorological radar, 4 wheeled reconnaissance vehicles with 6x6 configuration and one artillery locating radar. http://www.military-today.com/artillery/sh1.htm (See variant section. Also has picture options.) https://www.armyrecognition.com/janu...nese_army.html https://www.armyrecognition.com/july...nese_army.html Last two as time allows just wish I had more data. It's 3am I'm done. Good well everything!?! Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Pat.......we are NOT "missing" the 109A1...you are though
808 - M109A1 - Available 01/073 to 12/078 ......and there is little point to BRAZIL/ADD/M109A5+/COPY/USA UNIT 042/START JAN 2020/MG M284 155mm/L39/ROUNDS 36/SECONDARY M2HB 12.7mm w/500 ROUNDS//Improved FCS. as FCS for arty is NOT modelled by the game. The only difference between that unit and the M109A5 is the "+" .....and the 155 Chinese guns are already in the game as SP-1 |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
To my last and thanks to my sinuses acting up, I've had time to think about the USA artillery issue as discussed in my last post.
We currently have in the game the M109 UNIT 040, M109A2 UNIT 041 and M109A6 PALADIN UNIT 042. The missing variants I've identified in my last post. I think we need to add the following based on... 1. You have to have a beginning and we do in the M109 UNIT 040 so logically you need to have an end which would mean we need to ADD the M109A7 (Formally PIM.) with any modifications it brings to the series to the game. 2. We to have the milestone units where significant design changes have occurred. We do in M109A2 UNIT 041 which increased the ammo supply from 28 to 36 rounds due having the new M178 gun mount. Also the M109A6 PALADIN UNIT 042 (Which again are ALL being converted to the M109A7 likely before games end.) represented the first major design change in Armor, Comms, Range and again increased the ammo supply from 36 to 39 rounds which are game related. There to be sure were significant changes its Electronics, FCS, Platform weight and possible performance which in game terms might lead to a SPEED change as well as yet to be investigated. 3. We have a very HUGE gap in time and are also missing a milestone unit that I feel can be fixed with a ADD of the "hybrid" M109A5/A5+ (As was done with the RUSSIAN T-72B3M/B4 UNIT 697.). The M109A5/A5+ successfully address.. 3.A. The "bridge" we need to address the time gap. 3.B. The fact it's a milestone unit which marked the change with a M284 155mm/L39 vice 155mm/L23 gun, increased Range, ability to fire rocket assisted ammo, Optional 40mm Grenade Launcher, and FCS. To summarize I think we need to ADD two units the M109A5/A5+ and the M109A7. Also the M109A6 PALADIN will again, need to be changed by Dates, Ammo and SPEED. And again... http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m109.htm http://www.military-today.com/artill...a6_paladin.htm http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m109a7.htm Those are my thoughts as I start thinking about maybe getting some more sleep. Regards, Pat :capt: Just saw your reply already understood about the FCS in arty which is why I didn't add it to the highlighted "descriptor/submission". I hope with the above, to consolidate those units and fix the USA OOB time gap. |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Pat..... there is NO " time gap" in the M109 series
040 - M109 - Available 01/064 to 12/073 808 - M109A1 - Available 01/073 to 12/078 041 - M109A2 - Available 01/079 to 12/099 042 - M109A6 Paladin - Available 01/085 to 12/125 678 - M109A6 PIM - Available 01/114 to 12/125 there is continuous coverage from 1964 to 2025 and why would we need to add an A7 when you say the A6 PIM is the A7 ? |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Trying to get hard info on in-service dates can be a PITA but it appears ( given some of these units were added to the game nearly 2 decades ago ) that the A5 and A6 were amalgamated into one unit since .....according to one source that actually gave some dates...... the A6 was not introduced until 1992 so the 1985 date is ( I suppose given I didn't add it originally ) to cover both the A5 and A6 with the new larger turret.
The A6 and A7 now have Bradly armour values and the A7 now has a 40mm ( subject to testing how that works in the game given this is artillery ) |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the "time gap" so "up front" as I did, but thank you.
I still would like to take one last shot at entering in the M109A5/A5+ (Again we did this with the T-72B3M/B4) hybrid unit. This was a major departure from the previous versions. If you put it in (M109A5/A5+) it would cover 1985-1995/97(?) overlapping when the M109A6 PALIDIN that was supposed to have entered into service in 1991/92. Again if you agree to enter this unit, we can use it for Brazil as submitted and any other country that buys either of the two versions. We will likely see more foreign sales of the type before games end. I will present it in a more focused manner... The M109A5/A5+ is a milestone unit which changed the main gun to the M284 155mm/L39 vice 155mm/L23 gun of the previous versions, Increased Range, First to be able to fire rocket assisted ammo. From the Ref. already posted... "M109A5: model with M284 155mm/L39 howitzer, which has a maximum range of 22 km with a standard HE-FRAG projectile and 30 km with rocket-assisted projectile. Ammunition capacity stays the same, however. (That at 36 Rounds.) M109A5+: upgraded version with improved fire control systems." (FCS not game issue and not why I posted it. Again remember why we entered the T-72B3M/B4 to consolidate it because the differences were minimal at best and to avoid confusion and having to ADD extra unit added.) http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m109.htm http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...09_Paladin.php https://www.janes.com/article/86155/...itzer-delivery (This will confirm my start date for M109A5+ as it stands.) I've shot my "wad" on the M109A5/A5+ and with it I close the 2018/2019 Patch Submission Campaign. I leave on the table for next year the following, T-84 OPLOT-120 (YAGAGAN)(Yes I've been tracking this and there's movement concerning it.) and BRADLEY fix (Thanks to the ABRAMS issues I found.) as my first priority. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t84_yatagan.htm (It's been updated since this posting. Think very close to the OPLOT-M with a very good SB 120mm w/ ATGM.) Don as always I thank you for your support and patience, was good "to get back in the saddle again" though unfortunately I have to watch where my horse trends as those "Rabbit Holes" are still around. Andy and Don are in it to the "hilt" at this time and I just look forward to April/May to see how it all works out. Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
I put the A5 in 2 hours ago and all it really offers is a tweak toward "historical accuracy" game wise..not much........and any on map unit that fires >200 does nothing different than a unit that fires 200 because it is ON MAP and the only advantage of >200 range weapons is in counter battery and on map arty does not CB.
RA ammo is already in the USA OOB with the off map m777's |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Thank You! I haven't played the USA/USMC OOB in a very long time (Europe focused.) and thought we had a couple of OFF MAP M109 units which was why I pointed out the rocket assist ammo concerning the M109A5/A5+.
Now I can focus on "BREXIT" and how it'll affect my retirement funds. It could initially in the short/medium term get VERY UGLY!?! :cold: As they say over there "CHEERS"!! Love it when their Submariners visit to teach our "Boys" how to properly or not handle their drinking! ;) Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
What I NEED to know for certain and any source I find is being coy about it is which model changed to the Bradley hull ---Not the A5 that seems clear what isn't is if it was the A6 or not until the A7
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Re: SP and SPAA Developments
I really feel like an as now that I forgot to use DID with all it's built refs. :doh: It made me rethink my web search I believe we got somewhere to a better place with the below.Alright one at a time.
M109A7/START JAN/JUN 2020/END DATE EXPECTED 2050+/BRADLEY COMPONENTS/UPARMORED// https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...nership-04039/ (NOTE: Look at MAY 19/14 USA INDUCTS/STARTS LOW RATE Production./JUN 7/11 NOTES BRADLEY.) http://web.archive.org/web/201307210...sh2013/226.pdf (DOD-101 ARMY Doc. OVERVIEW/NOTE: Second Para middle BRADLEY again/Read it carefully it says also they're built to keep up with the ABRAMS and BRADLEY. No SPEED given :rolleyes: it must be pretty fast. As my last post Refs. showed they had more powerful engines progressively from the A109A5/A5+. Recommend SPEED adjusted accordingly but I wouldn't say as fast as the ABRAMS OR BRADLEY but maybe faster then we think.) https://www.army.mil/article/146200/...witzer_system/ https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/m109a7 Work in Progress... M109A6 PALADIN/START JUN 1993/STILL IN SERVICE/END DATE 2030+/SPEED INCREASE MIGHT BE NEEDED PER Refs. BELOW/THE CHASSIS IS A MODIFIED EXTENDED UPARMORED ONE USED ON THE FAASV/WAIT/READY/THE FAASV IS BUILT FROM THE ORIGNAL M109 CHASSIS.// https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...und/m109a6.htm https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...09a6-specs.htm http://www.military-today.com/artill...a6_paladin.htm (You have to be careful they tend to use initial production dates for START not FOC.) http://www.deagel.com/Artillery-Syst...000544001.aspx (Expected service to at least 2030.) https://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-i...ph-m992a3-cat/ (Conversion of M109A6 to M109A7 to have started in OCT 2017.) https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/bnE043AA.htm (The ARMY Plan.) When you look at pictures of the FAASV and M109 you can see the resemblance especially with the now I forgot which, either M109A5/A5+ or M109A6 which had the chassis extended. Sad thing is when I posted on these not quite 10yrs. ago I believe, I mentioned that about the chassis Don hope this helped I'm sure my EDIT CLOCK is running low. Does this mean I can have my M109A5/A5+ now!?! Yup right up to the end!! :p Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Please in advance excuse the "dumb" question. I found a good article on the ABBOT (Posted below with pictures of it doing something.) so I decided to check it out in the Great Britain OOB, where I came across ABBOT TROOP UNIT 198. I see it's labeled as an O/M unit, which is fine, but I always thought in the game like "RL" if it was an SPA unit, it benefited from any armor value it had to protect in counter battery attacks much as it's on map counter part would, in this case UNIT 401.
Am I off base in my thinking here? http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...433-abbot-spg/ Something to get my mind off DORIAN for the time being, before she shows up uninvited somewhere around late Monday early Tuesday morning. I know some of you out here are in the same potential boat as us, prepare , pay attention and most importantly stay safe!! DORAIN isn't content to be a second place finisher thus far in the "wind speed" category, she's just off the pace by less than 3-5mph. Some of us might be off line for awhile, so to everyone else, have a great week!! :D Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Abbots were available ~10 years before the 105 light gun - otherwise you would be stuck with the 105 pack howitzer 65-75. The pack has less range, so would be counter-batteried easily and unable to reach most opponents if firing C/B itself.
Why the light gun took so long when it was already available on the Abbot - probably finances?. Also - the Italian OTO 105 pack howitzer was a NATO standardisation, lots of folk bought them because of that agreement - and then spent their time modifying them to suit, welding them up (and so losing the pack ability) since they fell apart if towed too much behind vehicles or too fast, adding muzzle brakes since they were fired on max charge more than designed (so as to achieve any useful range) before binning them and replacing with proper artillery pieces. |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
There are a number of SPA used as Off Map arty in the various OOB's......sometimes it's all you have....sometimes it's the best unit to use. Just because it is armoured doesn't mean you cannot use it as an off-map asset
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Re: SP and SPAA Developments
The US 175mm while not armored is self-propelled, and it's intended primarily for counter-battery.
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Re: SP and SPAA Developments
While I REALLY appreciate the feedback, what I was trying to figure out is the following...
Does an armored off map SPA unit benefit from being armored when it is being "counter battered" by the AI or Player? Does the "code" allow for this? I know if the "same" unit, ABBOT for instance to stay on point, is on the map, it's armor protection is taken into account as assigned to that unit when being attacked. Survivability is the bottom line I guess w/o "mucking up" my question any further. Just trying to figure out how some of this works is all within the programing. Outside of this main topic noted above, I do understand the point with regular "field artillery" though many modern large caliber light weight artillery (M177 is a great example of this capability.) can be fired and moved before with minimal or no loss a majority of the time. Even in the game, not all those units are necessarily destroyed fully in the first counter battery salvo or second one. THANKS!! Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
There are only off-map batteries, no "SP" or "Armoured" or any other differentiation other than maybe a pretty picture.
UK used the 105 light gun in SPA arty, while concurrently being lumbered with the underwhelming OTO-Melera pack thing in towed batteries, before introducing the light gun as a towed unit to replace them (M119 in its USA version IIRC). |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Andy thank you very much! I'm one for knowing "how things work" and your answer clarifies one of those "mysteries" of the programing side that's not one of my strengths when it comes to computers. As I've said before, I'm more about the security side of things.
What I liked about the ABBOT was that it was fully amphibious using the attached fitted skirts (Similar that was to what they used on SHERMAN tank in D-Day) and it had as standard equipment for many years and "A maximum of 42 rounds were carried aboard the ‘Abbot’ (36 HE and 6 HESH). In normal operations, however, only 40 rounds were usually carried (32 HE and 6 HESH). The rounds were stored around the inside of the turret and the hull." from the ref., with the HESH rounds being fairly effective against some of the armor of the time. SPA that can somewhat defend itself, what a concept!?! And fun to use in the game, when given no choice in the matter. ;) Thank you again Andy! Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
1 Attachment(s)
New US Army SPH M1299 based on the M109 series. 155mm 58 caliber barrel. The XM1299 is part of the Army's Extended Range Cannon Artillery (ERCA) program.
LINK I wouldn't be adding it to the game just yet. The US has a long history of cancelled projects. :rolleyes: During a firing test Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona in March 2019, the M1299 gun nailed targets with pinpoint accuracy at a range of 62 kilometers, offering a greater range compared to the M109A7 Paladin which has maximum firing range of 30 km and for 40 km with the M982 Excalibur guided artillery shell for the M777 light towed howitzers. ... The M1299 tracked self-propelled howitzer has a fully-automatic ammunition loading system. It loads both projectiles and charges. This automatic loading system increased the rate of fire from 3 Rounds Per Minute (RPM) on the M109A7 to 10 rpm. The M1299 continues the use of 155 mm caliber of ammunition but it will use new XM1113 rocket-assisted artillery projectiles. In June 2019, General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GD-OTS) awarded a contract for Prototype and Process Development for the 155mm XM1113 Rocket-Assisted Projectile (RAP) round. ... The XM1113 RAP uses rocket technology to deliver greater thrust to the round when compared to its predecessor, the legacy M549A1. This will enable current U.S. Field Artillery 155mm Systems to fire the XM1113 RAP to a range of 40 kilometers, a 30% increase from the M549A1. When fired from the planned future Extended Range Artillery Cannon (ERCA) [aka XM1299], the XM1113 will achieve ranges out to 70 kilometers. |
Re: SP and SPAA Developments
That's all well and good, however, I've "gone down this road" many, many times through the years and the fact is precision type munitions and extended ranges don't matter within the games parameters. The player has control of artillery accuracy when setting up the game/campaign (I set mine at 90%.) and I know Don determines the ranges based on the info presented within the "context" of the games parameter's.
The Rheinmetall/Denel Land Systems also at the end of November just set three distance world records on two different 155mm/52 SPA platforms (The SADF G6 took top honors at 76km.) and on a FH 155mm/39. This is an important distinction to the above post, ALL three records were set using conventional munitions. I've also said for years and years South Africa produces some of the very best artillery systems in the world. I'd take a G-series SPA against anyone's in the Cold War/Current Era. https://www.armyrecognition.com/nove...th_africa.html But again it doesn't really matter in the long run for us overall. Regards, Pat :capt: |
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