Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Heck, I volunteered to play Ashdod and I think having them unrestricted would be rough, especially given the thematic E bless. I think it's probably the difference between "these troops are butch" and "Oh God, why a turn 4 SC?"

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Sorry for the mistunderstanding apparently. That is what DrP and I were discussing when you came into the game and part of the intent and reason for the changes to the .pdf, if the rainbows were in, there's a need to limit path selection to some degree since you don't have the cost barrier that is present with some other pretenders.

I have some goals I am trying to accomplish here:

a. Each team should have pretenders that are unique to their team and should be thematic for the team as a whole (no two teams should have the same pretenders)

b. The primary paths of each team need to be protected to some degree, or we need to ensure by some means that the blood team pretenders will take a certain level of Blood, the earth team will take a certain level of Earth, the Astral team will take a certain level of Astral, etc. Taking something other than your primary or secondary paths should be expensive or costly. This helps preserve the unique advantages and disadvantages of each team.

This was originally accomplished to some degree by keeping cheap rainbows out, I put them in to provide more pretender choices for some nations that were rather lacking. They can be taken out, or left in, but if left in some restrictions need to be in place here to preserve each teams advantages and disadvantages in keeping with the roleplaying and scenario nature of the game. I am sure the blood team does not want to see the death team with a pretender who is capable of casting high level blood spells or forging blood items right out of the gate or with a bless in their primary path.

If you have any suggestions, feel free.

I can limit only the 10 magic path cost rainbows to two paths or I can take them out entirely and we can revert to something like we had before without restrictions.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Well, that is certainly no problem to fix. I can go back to the level 6 cap on Earth and Nature. It was really a moot issue with the dual path restrictions. That bless combo being the reason Ashdod's and giant nation troops are so fearsome.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Simple and obvious suggestion may be:
1) remove the rainbows
2) limit the non-natural path levels on a Pretender to 3, for example. This will definitely not lead to this path domination or enable high-level spells

This will suit everyone, I hope.
As rainbows can't be taken, you will never have many paths but you WILL have those you really need and that is not bad really. With current rules taking anything other than an SC pretender has no sense. Yes, it is not so bad for our team, because we have good SC chassis. But it is 1) unfair 2) just not fun
The primary role of pretender in many cases is to somehow compensate the weak points of the nation. If it is impossible, the only logical thing for him is being an early SC. That's no good.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Hey, that works good for me. If DrP is fine and everyone else is fine with that, I've no problem dropping all the 10 magic path rainbows and reverting to the old system. Kinda why I left em out in the first place.

So you'd be limited to level 3 in non-native pretender paths. I was gonna say level 1 (you could boost but wouldn't need to empower) but level 3 is fine I suppose.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Keep in mind that pretenders that have native magic in another teams primary path (like the Gorgon, Baphomet, vampire queen, Dracolich, Carrion dragon, would still need to be banned as this system would allow them to take a high level of earth, or astral, or death, etc. But on the plus side the SC weak Sangiunarium would get the moloch most likely, and maybe a few others.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

I'm fine with that.
And please, let it be the final change. Imperfect rules are definitely better than rules that constantly change.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Heh, heh. Well, you captains are finicky lot. ;) I wouldn't have it any other way.

It is natural for players (the more experienced the more likely to be the case) when they come into a game to try to adjust this or that setting or speak up about certain settings they don't like. And a comprise must often be reached between the admin's goals or "vision" for the game and every players expectations.

I expect similar input from the captain of the Usurpers and if I get a replacment for myself, from the captain of the Children of Crom. You and DrP will just have to tell em NO more changes! And back me up!

I'll make the changes later tonight if DrP and players are cool like you.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Any idea where to find a leader for the Usurpers? I noticed that Chris wants to play Mictlan. Frankly speaking, Shinuyama and Machaka have less Death and Nature than Mictlan has Astral and Water. And Mictlan being in that team seems more playable to me than land-based R'lyeh that can't build normal mages and troops other than in the capital. Or did I get it wrong that R'lyeh isn't supposed to have any water around?
Yes, R'lyeh is a canonical Usurper but how can it be played?..

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

I believe there were going to be some water provinces that don't look like water on the map edges or something

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

rlyeh would truly be hosed:

Sea provinces are low resources, and do not benefit from adjacent land provinces. so rlyehs income is forever minimal.

The capital resource bonus is frankly irrelevent to me, although I know that some others like meteorite guards.

land province mages are limited to starchildren. Great assassins. Lousy researchers.

The usurpers suffer from a lot of other weaknesses as well. Their signature strength (astral) is widely found on independents.

Lizard shamans, Amazons, all of the metalic orders.

finally, CBM of course removes clams; sure every nation is hosed that way - but rlyehs mages are more geared to clams than anyother nation in the game, probably.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Yeah, it seems that Mictlan would give the Usurpers team more flavour than R'lyeh. R'lyeh is designed as water nation and should be played as water nation. Actually all of their troops are quite crappy and not cost-effective with one exception - the Crab Hybrid which is aquatic but helps underwater expansion a lot. (Some people may say that Shambler Thralls are cool but even though they may be cool there're always better recruits. Not a matter of discussion now, anyway)
As a balance adherent, I'd rather see Mictlan in the Usurpers team but of course it is not me who decides, so it's just an opinion.

p.s. Actually I just can't wait for a fight and I'm willing to face whoever and whatever if that makes the game start sooner :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Also, S-W is a very good and natural bless for Mictlan and that may compensate for the potential weaknesses of the Usurpers. Again, just a side opinion.

p.s. I'm advocating for Mictlan just because I hope Chris will take it :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

laughing .. thanks ano = )

I've told sept that I'll play if he adds mictlan to the usurpers;
I've also said I'm a masochist because the usurpers are *terribly* weak.

That being said... even tho I'd like to captain, I don't have time - so I'm hoping squirrel will step up and show me how its done = ).

That said, I have a number of .. intrigueing ideas for the usurpers = ).

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Usurpers (and Rlyeh with them) can clam all they want since we dont use CBM?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

NooBliss
Yes, they can. Just like everyone.
chrispedersen
Well, I also hope that squirrel will step in and the game will start. Don't want signup last for ages. Mictlan instead of R'lyeh sounds good though, probably, it also has to be restricted a bit.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

The usurpers "official" paths could be astral/air, and then the R'lyeh -> MA Mictlan swap would make a lot of sense.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Been held up with other things for a bit. I am updating the pretender choices now following the rubric ano suggested earlier and upon which I agreed and there seemed to be no objections.

1. All 10 magic path rainbows will be removed.
2. All pretenders restricted to taking no more than level 3 on non-native paths (native paths = the ones your pretender comes with standard)
3. Pretenders who native path conflicts with the primary path of any team and/or the merc will be/remain excluded.
4. Restrictions on Ashdod pretender revert to max of level 6 on Earth and Nature.
5. No further changes will be made to the pretender choices unless all captains agree.

Regarding the Usurpers, though R'lyeh is the "Cannonical" Usurper, Mictlan has good Astral access (though not as much initial native astral gem income as any of the others), so they would likely be a good choice if R'lyeh is replaced and Chris, Squirel, or someone else wants to captain them. I wouldn't mind.

Mictlan has a reasonable nature/forest bias both in terms of theme and path (more so than T'ien Chi'), so I probably wouldn't change the secondary path to air due to the conflict with the AI team's primary air dominance. I'd just need to change the team pic (showing an Illithid):D, but that is a minor change. The theme of mental/temporal magic still applies to any astral based team and the thaumaturgy school.

If R'lyeh stays in, ahh no problem as well. I might connect their underwater cap with the nearest corner sea province which would at least allow them to move their aquatic only units around a bit.

Adding more underground lake cavern/water provinces is a bit tougher since I want to do it without any image editing, want to limit the obstructions to the land game (and AI), and keep them evenly and stragetically dispersed. This is the reason they are located in the corners where their disruption is minimal. Adding 4 more cavern type sea provinces to the north/south/east/west center edges of the map remains a distant possibility, but I likely won't bother if R'leyh is out.

Sea provinces were more of an afterthought on this map, and the merc is something a test, but should be fun. Altantis and R'lyeh were chosen as they both have a good number of amphibious units.

I am opening up the Deva's den and merc hq to all players. A single player on each team will still remain the contact person in regard to retaining the merc's services (either captain or advisor) to prevent confusion or conflicting requests for services from different members of the same team.

Will post another message when the teams&themes have been updated.

Lets try to get the last few people in the game, and an advisor or two or some alternates would'nt be bad either.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Oh, cool! Am waiting for Chris and Squirrel.
W9S9 seems frightenting though:)
Probably Mictlan will be the only uber-blessed nation.

upd: do I understand it right that Mictlan can't take W9S9 on an Oracle because Oracle doesn't have native W?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Oops, made a booboo on my previous post. Currently the primary and secondary paths of the Usurpers are Astral and Water. If Mictlan comes in, I'll have to see how it would affect the secondary path, but the presence of Bandar and Mictlan might push the secondary path toward nature/forest more than anything. Which works great for me, and would offer more protection to the mercs primary path of water.

Yes, under the currently agreed rubric, an available Usurper pretender would need native water to be able to take anything above level 3.

Now if mictlan replaces R'lyeh, the secondary path of the Usurpers will likely change and a few pretender choices will need to be changed on that team (hence the above restrict to pretender changes would not apply until after).

So do you want me to wait to see if mictlan will indeed replace R'leyh by the prospective captain or should I change the teamsandthemes temporarily now?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

It seems that all teams have agreed upon regarding R'lyeh/Mictlan. R'lyeh just sucks without much water and it needs really a lot of time to make everything run.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Just wait, lets leave it for the captain....

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Hmm... The proposal that Mictlan has to choose a pretender that has water and astral access is all well and good.

Except that mictlan doesn't *get* a pretender that has water and astral access.

I would propose that we just allow mictlan to have water/astral.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Chris is right, that is really the potential Usurpers Captain's call regarding either R'lyeh or Mictlan. (I personally think R'lyeh is a lot of fun to play around with period even with the water gimping), But I have no problem with either choice. I will however go ahead and implement the agreed upon rubric for the other teams and post the changes, this way at least the other teams are straight pretender wise.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Understand that allowing Mictlan W9S9 bless while other nations are severely restricted and actually no one can take a super-bless, doesn't bring any balance. I must say that jags and eagles are very good even with a single W9 bless.
I'm ok with the current settings just because Mictlan has no pretender with native water+astral

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

If Mictlan comes in for R'lyeh, the secondary path of the Usurpers is likely to change, and thus available pretender choices are likely to change a bit for the Usurpers. Without R'lyeh, I suspect the paths would be Astral and Nature (will need to look a bit more and apply the same methodology I used for the other teams), not Astral and Water. Any diversions from these basic rules and would need complete approval. Again, trying to keep things simple as possible.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Let's don't change anything without an urgent need? All the nations in Usurpers team get both Astral and Water so Astral-Water paths for their sound good. As Mictlan can't take W9S9 and has to choose, I see no problem in the situation.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

OK, I was wrong, it looks like water can safely remain as the secondary path of the Usurpers whether we have R'lyeh or Mictlan. I thought their might be a slight air or nature bias, but Bandar and Arco don't have air access, and Pythium has no nature at all.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Septimius, NooBliss claims that he can't post at the N&V forums. I read some earlier posts there and seems like there was the same problem with GrudgeBringer. Has it been solved? Or have you used other ways of communication?
What might be the cause of this? Firewall, antivirus, unsupported browser?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Grudge was the only one who seemed to have that problem last game for some reason or other I was never able to discern. I will get with NooBliss and see if we can discover what is causing his issue. I am assuming he can log on just fine and read the teams messages, correct?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

The Teams&Themes.pdf has been updated. Welcome back Bakemono Kunshu, Moloch, Great Mother, and Phoenix. Pretender choices look like they won't change whether the Usurpers decide to go with Mictlan or R'lyeh.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...9&d=1272021300

Hmm, trying to come up with a suitable image replacement for the Illithid with Mictlan in representing the Usurpers astral/water/temporal/mental magic theme.

Any suggestions?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Yes.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

I'm getting with him.

These look interesting:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:G...AS-PGR-BIG.jpg http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:P...umb1374470.jpg

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Eh... Guys, I'm too lazy (busy, cozy) to make screenshots etc. Just believe me I cant post there. I'd prefer to just PM everything I want to say.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Well except that the only water pretender allowed for mictlan is a blue dragon. And I'm not willing to chamption a nation already saddled with one gimp.

Sept has only allowed the Usurpers 11 pretenders - of which half of them are *only* available to Rlyeh.

The rules were intended to restrict each nation to its themes. Which my proposal corresponds to. I don't believe that the combination of allowed pretenders and paths have been adequately considered for this team.

The team has no SC pretender, and as a whole has no thug/SC recruitables. On top of that a gimped Rlyeh...

Sorry.. pass.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

I can't understand you, Chris. It has been decided that we have Mictlan instead of R'lyeh. So no R'lyeh. Mictlan can easily take a W9 or S9 bless which is not bad comparing to what others have. Bandar may also take a bless (even w9s9 IIRC) and their sacreds are good indeed with it. So, two potential blesses for team. On top of that two of four nations get elephants. Compare that to what other teams have. Yes, we get a PoD that can provide an early boost but later on our starting advantages are nullified. No chance for a bless, no to little summonable thugs\SC's before tartarians.
As for SC's, yes you don't have them but any of titan pretenders can be a wonderful dormant SC if given E and A. You get 4 decent to perfect nations that have wonderful SC\thug summons and all magic (except blood). And that is not exaggeration at all

However, I, of course, agree that Usurpers should be given more pretenders to choose from just because they indeed get too little currently .

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Well, you're probably right ano. But I still think the pretender selection and path needs to be looked at. Everyone's jumped on the 'get rid of rlyeh' which is fine - but its still subject to the whims of the usurpers captain. Who may decide he wants rlyeh (beats me why).

Look at the pretender selection for the usurpers... they're not ALLOWED any titans.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Pretenders should definitely be reviewed, I hope, we can come to agreement with Septimius regarding that.
As for the captain, doesn't Squirreloid want to take this role? If not, I believe you have many contacts who are good players here.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

How's that Nataraja as an SC, the one with the 4 weapons?

And the Son of the Sun?

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Son of the Sun is a crap. Nataraja is decent.
Perhaps the Usurpers can be given something like a female titan like other teams are allowed one pretender with a cross-path.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

So blue dragon and Nataraja are the SCs they have right?

Generally, at least two SCs are sufficent when two nations are tucked behind two others.

Hehe, Ano, you must really want Chris onboard.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

whatcha talkinga bout ano... Set gets...

ghost king (great SC), PoD, 4 liches, LORD OF THE GATES, wyrm, and mom of monsters ain't bad at all.

oops ok.. its not CBM so lord of the gates isn't amazing. still very solid pretender choices.

Usurpers get oracle (immobile), sphinx (immobile) sacred statue (immobile), lady of fortune (not available), son of the son (crap), nataraja, Blue dragon, mother of rivers (not available)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

What do ya mean NOT Available?

I am sure Ano wouldn't mind giving ya the Wyrm, it's sort of a universal pretender, like the manticore, though a serpent (a bit thematic for the death team), it is not bound by path restrictions.

Depending upon his time constraints, Chris (being a vet) can join as an advisor or captain (something he is sorta doing already). He could even take a leiutenant position (normally reserved for noobs or intermediates) but his captain would need to be either an intermediate or a noob.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Actually we have plans for a Wyrm so I do mind, sorry. And it is a serpent. There're other good pretenders as well that are not yet used like female Titan.
I'll explain: wyrm is a must-be pretender for MA C'tis that can't really take anything but undead or serpent because of Miasma dominion that is also a headache btw

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Two of four Usurpers nations may take a female Titan which is a very potent dormant SC especially if you consider Arco healing. And she seems quite thematic to me

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Darn it. Your right, forgot to add the female titan. Ooops.

Don't forget we still need a leuitenant and hopefully someone to replace my rather noobish self on Children of Crom.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

And the lovely Lady of Love. Ain't she pretty?

Alright Chris, you heard Ano. He wants ya in. So get your arse in here. :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

A very potent pretender, btw due to her fantastic awe value.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

I spent some time reading the last turns of the NaV team forums and I have to say this is gonna be an interesting fight. And chris, you definitely should jump in together with squirreloid.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI, Enlisting 14/17.
 

Female Titan and Lady of Love added.

Enemy commanders will say, Va Va Voom! :D

Astral has a lot going for it:

1. It is the probably the most powerful path in the game.

2. Communions are powerful and Wish is not a bad spell from what I understand.

3. Astral gems are the gold standard of magic gems and can be alchemetized into any other gem. And once arcane nexus and the other globals become available, it means an almost unlimited supply of them.

Remember to have fun with it and enjoy getting into team character. Competition is cool but sometimes it can cloud out all else. :)