Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

BUG?

Carrion Dragon in Carrion Lord form cannot reanimate (no command for it).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Reanimation comes from Holy, so a Carrion Dragon in Carrion Lord form shouldn't be able to reanimate.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Shouldn't the Zmey be cold-blooded? The Bogarus-only summon it is based on is (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Zmey).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Excellent catch!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

It may be thematic but I'm not sure if making the Zmey cold-blooded is a good idea simply because the encumbrance hit you take in cold dominion is so severe (it's a sad thing seeing Agarthans fighting in cold 3). I haven't used them much but have had them used (effectively) against me and I really like this style of unit - a monster with relatively few slots but a good set of built-in abilities (shi shis also fit this description).

Also, a small thing, but thematically it would make sense for dwarven elder (monster # 2826) multiheros to also have a forge bonus.

But the real thing I want to say is how much I'm enjoying this release of CBM. This version of Eriu is by far the most fun one I've played (have a game going with the Tuatha with awe as well and of course I've played every previous version ;)). I'll have more detailed feedback later but I'll mention that I think Eriu is quite capable of defending itself against a rush and I don't think I'm being overly optimistic in my belief that they have a very strong midgame. Endgame the lack of native SDB access is an issue but I don't feel nations have to be equally strong in all stages of the game. The only problem is having too weak an early game such that the nation is an obvious target (Eriu used to fall in this category).

I also really like the changes to magic items and find myself considering items I would have never forged before (even with a hammer).

I think this is an excellent version of CBM. Thanks for all your work on this. :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Really disagree Zmey should be cold-blooded. That 'feature' basically ruins units, especially since Cold-3 dominion is really common.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Depends on the price you‘ll have to pay for them.

I like the idea thematicly.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

If its cold-blooded it will stop being used at almost any price. You'd have to make them like 5f to get people to bother, because its really easy to throw Wolven Winter on any province you're expecting to fight in.

A cold-blooded zmey in cold-3 dominion would lose to *PD*. Its like +10 encumbrance. Totally unplayable. Its worse than having a chest wound.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

You get exactly +10 enc for cold-blooded in cold 3 province. Also you get some enc for cold climate. Just crushed C'tis with Wolven winter research rush. 18 enc sauromancers suck.

Cold blooded is really bad thing. Not sure if Zmey need such nerf.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Actually, reading the zmey's description it doesn't say they are the same family of creature as the Bogarus zmey, only that "they have lent their names to the lesser drakes of Rus". So, let's consider them three headed red dragons, and red dragons aren't cold-blooded. :p

And keep in mind zmey make nice heavy duty raiders and can be expected to operate in hostile dominion so if your opponent has cold scales he may not even have to bother spamming wolven winter.

It's too bad the penalties for being cold-blooded aren't moddable. Even cut in half they would be serious but the 4/3/3 penalty for each tick in the cold scale is just crippling.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

You haven't convinced me.

I still like the idea and I think you're exaggerating.

Against cold 3 it's a problem. But how many gems cost Wolven winter? Where is the Zmey gonna raid? Against pd the Zmey wins easily even with +10 enc. With it's AoE 3 fire attack most battle against pd take 2 or 3 turns.

So he's not a good raider in all circumstances, this is called strategic thinking. When your fighting cold, summon a Wendigo.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

So zmeys stop being usefull against any cold1 or higher nation. Or a neutral nation with good pd.

Also, now unkitted zmeys can killed by ghost rider spam and retreat route removal, about 1/3 of the time. With cold blood, you can ALWAYS kill them with one ghost rider and casting woven winter twice. No exception. cold blooded means + 12 encumberance each attack round. (10 for the cold blooded, +2 for extreme cold).

Sure, ghost riders is a end game spell. (and way to cheap at 5 dgems, CBM should up that a bit 7-8 perhaps), and you need a lot of gems to prepare for ghost rider spam (lich + 35dgems in death boosters). But it works great against most foes.

I think it would be better just to give them a cold resistance malus. Cold blooded seems a bit broken anyway.

And against PD with 13 enc the zmey does not win. Perhaps if you give the zmey equipment. But I doubt it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Zmey is unusable in cold. I've had the privilage to fight Neif as Abysia and kitted Zmeys died to jotun PD, and that really says something.

GR's are the bane of zmey btw. 2 GR's will usually kill just about any Zmey, kitted of course.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Wraith crown and a berzerker amulet work pretty well. Eth means the lances don't hit, gives regen, and gives berserk. Sprinkle in MR and resistances as needed :D

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Really, I don't think anyone is arguing that giving the Zmey cold-blooded would make it's defeat likely in a cold province. I think the larger question is whether the Zmey having that weakness is too much.

The point is the Zmey is an extraordinary raiding unit which skirts the line between heavy thug and SC. It flies, has three lives, very high protection, does AoE fire damage on top of 4 high strength attacks (so one is likely to connect even when the foe is ethereal AND fire immune). The Zmey being a poor choice to invade a cold nation is fine. After all, you know not to rely on body ethereal to protect your SC against Caelum when even their PD has magical ice weaponry. That's the tactics of the game. And having the correct response to a Zmey be Wolven Winter combined with a remote attack spell sounds like a gem and research-appropriate counter.

Finally, fire gems suffer from fewer viable outlets than other gem-types. The main uses for fire gems are forging fire-spam items, lightless lanterns or used as an ingredient for non-fire gear (firebrands, gold shields, rune breakers, etc.). That makes saving up for an awesome summon like the Zmey a very easy decision to make. If the Zmey cost death gems or earth gems instead, I'd be more hesitant to weaken it, but not fire gems.

I think the change is both thematically appropriate and mechanically balanced.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

i back up shatner's opinion to the fullest.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Its not just raiding cold-based nations. Wolven Winter means that Cold-3 can be applied to any province during the magic phase, say preceeding assault by a thug/SC with teleport or ct. At that point Zmey become so many wasted gems. Heat scales cannot be applied so easily, and Cold-3 can be generated predictably and on-demand with Wolven Winter.

Cold-blooded is not mechanically balanced. Nations who have cold-blooded mages are amongst the weakest nations in the game, and cold-blooded troops rarely get used as anything more than arrow stoppers if it can be helped. The idea of a thug or SC which is cold-blooded is laughable, and it will not be used, since a single naked zmey more than justifies the cost of a Wolven Winter, and chances are its carrying 15-25 gems worth of gear too. At that point the entire map should be treated as Cold-3, because wherever the zmey goes it *will* be cold-3 for the relevant follow-up combat.

This is totally ignoring that Cold-3 is the single most common temperature extreme in dom3. (In addition to nations with a cold preference, lots of people use X3 temperatures for the points because its one of the easiest places to get them, and C3 is favored by default for anyone without cold-blooded unless they have specific reason to prefer H3, since there are more summons with a cold aura than a heat aura (offensive benefit), and more units with firepower than cold power (defensive benefit as most of these are nationals - if you expect to see lots of enemy coldpower units you might choose otherwise)). The only people who choose H3 are people with a specific heat preference, people with a cold-blooded unit they plan on using regardless of heat preference, or people who specifically are planning to use firepower or fire aura units (generally B/F nations because Devils have a heat aura). Cold also has an advantage over Heat because the game starts in spring, which means you'll suffer less economy hit early because summer will knock that C3 down to C1-2 in the early turns, reducing the effect of the negative scales.

tl;dr Zmeys costing more than ~5f are useless if they're cold-blooded, because that's the break-even point in gem expenditure on both sides. Cold-blooded means instant 2x chest-wound-equivalents whenever your opponents wants - and a single chest-wound is enough to end the career of most thugs.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

You are absolutely right that cold scales are more common than heat scales. I myself favor them for precisely the reasons you laid out. Where we disagree is in whether Cold Blooded is really the nail in the Zmey's coffin.

First off, a Zmey doesn't need 15-25 gems worth of equipment. Sure, it's got three misc slots and three heads so you could decorate it like a christmas tree, but the main points of the Zmey are first rampant raiding and second for ruining commanders by attacking rear. And for that all you really need is a 5N Lyncathrope Amulet. Face it, the Zmey comes with fear (10D helm), flying (10A boots), flame AoE (5E5F fire brand...x3), 22 protection (10E fullplate), fire immunity (5F ring) and 50% poison resistance just for laughs. Those 30 fire gems summon a big scary monster that's the equivalent of more than 45 gems worth of equipment attached to a really good chassis (high hp, three lives, high moral, excellent MR, high attack, etc., etc.).

Second off, when your opponent does cast Wolven Winter on you (possibly twice if the province had heat scales) they still need to teleport, cloud trapeze or remote attack with something that can kill a Zmey. And sure, in a Cold-3 province, that really just means surviving 7+ rounds of combat after which the creature will be crit to death. But even then you are talking about employing a high moral, fire immune, ethereal/high hp monster with A2 or S3. That requires gems and mage-turns of preparation to ready. At that point, your opponent is reacting to you tearing up his backfield, teleporting his thugs into his own former provinces instead of doing something proactive like raiding you.

As in all wars, a worthy opponent will respond to your tactics. It's not a question of if your weapon will fail you, but when... and for how long/savagely you can beat them with it. Zmey are only conjuration 6 so they can pop out and raise hell early enough to make a huge difference in a mid-game war. And even once they are eclipsed by late game summons (angels, elemental royalty, etc.) and late game spells, they are still cheap enough to be used as a bolstering force in a late game army. And once that foe commits their three tricked out golems (or whatever) to some province that doesn't contain a lab, well that's when the Zmey can once again take wing and burninate the countryside.

And if worst comes to worst, you can always give them an amulet of reinvigoration and a heart of life. At that point you're likely not paying much more than your opponent who has to bring the stubborn thing down.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

i'd like to add, that the player with the zmey also can counter the counter: "my zmey is here, so next turn there will be wolven winter and his cloud trapezing something, so i teleport my anti SC there", etc etc. What i state is, that its not an automatic loss of a zmey to send him raiding, even the opponent has the aforementioned tools.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I don't think this is true. I ran some tests with two wolven winter casters at the top of the order and two at the bottom with a cloud trapezing angel in the middle and the battle that was fought in the magic phase did not reflect the shift in temperature.


No question it has a nice set of abilities and is a good raiding unit. But in addition to the things it has, it is also missing some important things like full slots (in particular hand slots) and any kind of magic (aside from the 10% chance of F1). The lack of magic does have one benefit in that you don't have a buffing phase and can go right to the attack but overall having magic would be helpful as you might be able to use spells rather than magic items to cover some vulnerabilities. The lack of hand slots is very significant in that it means you don't have magic, armor piercing weapons (aside from the fire breath which is easy for an opposing thug to counter) and you don't have a shield and just in general can't swap out weapons depending on the opposition.


I've never bought into this line of reasoning. It seems too much like saying if a path has powerful things it can have more powerful things but if a path has weak things you can't add something powerful because it might get used too much. Seems to me it would be better to add a bit more to the weak path to provide more options. And as regards fire, if you have a strong F income and reach late game you'll switch to ember lords anyway.


In cold-3 I'd say all you need is enough chaff to do the job. Skelly spam should work nicely. And you don't have to teleport someone in to deal with him. Use conventional movement: a force to retake the province and another couple randomly moving about to fight him - eventually he should run into them. And of course you can try the traditional mind hunts. You'll need three successful hunts to get a kill but if the zmey doesn't have an AoMR that's feasible. And even if you don't get three successes you can knock off one or more heads, weakening the zmey. Also, while they have good MR if they don't have an AoMR or luck pendant they are very vulnerable to spammed MR resist spells on the battlefield.


Sure, you can always up the ante by sending in reinforcements to try to destroy the expected counterattack but this is no different than with any other raider/SC that doesn't have an escape route planned (stealth, returning).


Really, if zmey are too powerful for the cost/research level (and I'd like to see more evidence of this first) it seems like this could be easily solved by bumping up their cost a bit (and it just went up 5 gems in any case). To me this is preferable to crippling them in cold dominion. I agree with Squirrelloid that the game's cold-blooded penalties are just too harsh and not in any way balanced.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

What should really be changed is the Bogarus national Zmey, by taking away the cold blood from it. A cold blooded national summon for a cold preference nation is ridiculous and will never ever be used. Why make the EDM Zmey less viable when you can make the national Zmey summon viable instead?

Zmeys are basically three headed dragons, and no other dragons are cold blooded in Dominions. A creature that can breathe fire should be able to keep itself warm I gather, especially one with it's roots in siberian folklore.

Zmeys are balanced and not overpowered now. Cold blood is a huge nerf, so you'll just end up with a big need for more balancing for the benefit of a minor thematic quirk.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Nicely put...

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

EA Oceania has the Oceanian Captain recruitable twice.
Is that intentional?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Does the Argatha Spell "Fury of Loss" do anything except add a few battlefield movement points? The description says it adds strength, but it certainly does not.

Any help is appreciated!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

It gives an extra 4 points to Attack. Makes a big difference to Agartha!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

oh crap - I was looking at strength :)

Thanks!!!!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

The new UW spell Ride the Currents won't allow mages to travel to a friendly fort under siege in an UW province. Is that intentional? Conversely, you can use that spell to travel to an enemy fort that your forces are besieging.

I haven't checked if the larger version of that spell (Traverse the Sea) will or won't allow you into a friendly, besieged fort, but it certainly bears investigation.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

yeah thats a known bug. iirc its basically the best solution that is possible because of the whole uw only thing.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one saying what's up with Zmey.

Perhaps this may be off in terms of reasoning, but I'm trying to think of what to compare a Zmey to. I chose a Red Dragon.

Zmey Red Dragon
HP 80*3 125
Str 24 25
Prot 22 22
AS 18 15
Mor 18 30
DS 16 11
MR 18 18
Pre 10 12
Enc 1 2

Both have fear, FR100, but the Zmey has PR50. The Zmey has 3 bites, 2 claws, 1 tail and AOE3 range 0 fire breath. The RD has a bite, a claw, and a ranged AOE3 fire breath.

So what's the deal? Zmey can destroy crap better than the Red Dragon Chassis which is also a god chassis? People use the Dragon chassis so all is well, and it has fewer slots/stats, so it seems Zmey are a bit out of hand.

On another note, then I look at the Ettin. Big fan! BUT the amount of gems I have to pop into them ... ugh it leaves me disappointed when I compare it to the Zmey cost wise. Ettins NEED gear to be useful (full kit imo), Zmey need nada. At this point Kit Lions (why did they lose their commander status btw) seem to be a better deal than the Ettin.

Also Valerius I'm curious what thugs you're sending to fight Zmey. I tried Shishis, tested it first equipped with fire rings (or was it dragon helms and burning pearls? I forget :)) and pendants of luck. In the trial Zmey went down but so did 1 shishi. LOL I then decided fine, I'll lose a shishi and did it in game and due to map positioning lost them both. The only other thug type counter I could think of would be multiple sword of heroes (?) with perhaps an axe of hate wielder or 2. But still cost wise that's just nuts.

So then right now imo it's just mind hunt spam to take them down, or if you're lucky a full army backed with mages doing insta kill or fatigue spells.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Just ran 2 simple tests Red Dragon with dom 10 in its own dominion owns zmey one on one. Red Dragon with dom6 in its own dominion gets its *** handed to it.

Just keeping with the Red Dragon and Zmey comparison. Red Dragons have less AS and DS, perhaps the Zmey could be nerfed in those stats.

Another possibility could be to reduce the Head hp to maybe 60 or something.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

A pair of Rocs with at least some FR gear should hand a Zmey its ***, which is about equal gems on chassis. (That first strike is near 50 AP damage (with AoE 1), and the beak is enough AP damage on top of that to make the Zmey cry, and its got 2 claw attacks to go yet, both of which expect to put some damage through). If they have FR100, the Rocs can also mistform up to make the zmey work to do any real damage whatsoever.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

why did the kit lions lose commander status?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Because they were pointless as commanders and using them requires massing them. So having 10 of them would just clutter up the screen for you if they were commanders.

As for the Zmeys, yea iv'e always considered them very powerful. Even back when they costed 35f. But an easy counter should be Shishis as I dont think it got any magic attacks to pierce mistform. I might be wrong about the fire being non-magical and if I am you have to put a Fire ring on them though.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

kit lions were usable as commanders with one lycanthropos amulet, according to my tests.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

But for the cost of a lycantrope amulet you can have a second lion!

Unless you had forge bonus there was nothing that you could give to the lion that did not cost more than the lion itself!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

it would worth testing if two lions r better than one with amulet.

i tested it only with forge bonus, and from the same amount of gems a lycantroph version was "better".

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Seems like Sanguine Heritage is still 44 slaves?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I am growing to dislike Agartha's Fury of the Doomed spell. I think I have seen too many fights where the enemy is routed, but rooted, or fleeing slowly out of range of Agartha's H3's and then the Oracles start 'Battle Frighting' my commanders and mages with 10-20 castings of Fury of the Doomed for no reason.

Is it possible to make it an H4 spell so only the prophet or somebody with a +1H item can cast it, or lower its bonuses and get rid of the affliction it causes or do something to it that would make the spell AI not choose to cast it when enemies are not in range, but friendlies are available for afflicting?

Gaining a bunch of morale-reducing afflictions every time you win a battle is both non-thematic and non-fun.

I mean, I have trouble imagining a bunch of priests seeing the enemy turn tail and head for the woods and then start shouting out 'We're DOOMED!!!!' and all within earshot suddenly become scarred for life.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

After playing a game as MA Atlantis I've notice a few more cases where you can't cast certain spells underwater when you seemingly should be able to.

1) Lichcraft. It summons a poor amphibian undead, same as summoning a bane. Seems like this should be permitted.

2) Volcanic Eruption. You can't cast this spell at an under water province. Fine. But you also can't cast this spell at a land province from underwater. For most UW nations this isn't an issue but EA and MA Atlantis have EF casters all over the place.

3) The Magic Lamp. You can forge the item underwater, hand it to one of your commanders but you can't have them use the item spell to summon the genie. The genie is fully amphibious so this seems like it shouldn't be a problem.

4) Cleansing Water/Solar Rays. On land, a water-heavy nation can hose down a battlefield with holy water, tearing up undead and demons. On land, an astral-heavy nation can send searing beams down from on high to scorch the undead. Underwater, they can do neither, leaving them with no dedicated anti-undead spells save for the death ones... death being an extremely rare path for native UW recruits. Furthermore, you can cast "Light of the Northern Star" underwater so shooting star light at stuff underwater is already something people do in Dominions.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Something along the lines of cleansing waters would be especially welcome, since most UW nations have powerful water magic and don't really have astral.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Say, is there anywhere I can find some stats on the summons added in CBM 1.92? Just wondering what I'm getting (or will be getting).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

look in the mod file?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Oh yeah, one more "can't cast underwater" weirdness is that you can't cast darkness. What's that about?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Is there any reason the LA ULm Guardian hero is map move 1? He was mapmove 2 in vanilla, and it would only make sense seeing as how he's the first and leader of the Ghoul Guardians who are all mapmove 2 themselves. As it is now, it's not very thematic leading Guardians with Banes, Mound Kings, or God forbid, Fortune Tellers when you have their commander who's too slow to keep up.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Same reason that you can't cast solar brilliance. :) You're too deep! That said the UW dark citadel should have auto darkness much like the cave city.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

The argument for not being able to cast star/brightness spells underwater has been that there is too much intervening water for the light to reach that far down. That's a reasonable argument aside from the fact that you can still cast Light of the Northern Star underwater. However, it is not consistent with the game overall.

If fighting underwater is so deep that light from the surface can't reach you... then you are already fighting in darkness and the effect should be auto-cast. If light from the surface can reach you underwater, then casting a spell (darkness) which blocks that light should have the effect of plunging the battlefield into darkness. Either way, darkness should work underwater.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Ideally deep sea provinces would have auto darkness like caves and normal sea provinces should be like land.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Hey, EA Oceania, I like most of the changes, but the addition of the Triton Queen has me stumped. On first glance thug or baby SC chassis, BUT, she seems to have low astral? I summoned a couple and they ranged from S1 to S2. Now she's 55 water gems and with that astral she's just asking to be magic dueled to death, so realistically why would one summon her?

She either needs 0 astral or needs a price change imo - perhaps both? Water gems for EA O are pretty tight, and Grendels/Wendigo's are cheaper and with the right pretender set up easy to get, so once again why would one summon her?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Hi, do you all know that Helheims dwarves have a crafting bonus!

That means skull mentors are cheap...

While I like it, it seems to me a bit overpowered...

;)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Honestly, the Triton Queen is a throwback to Burnsaber's Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod and was created in the context of CBM 1.6 or so. Other things have changed to make her...less needed, let's say. That being said, the low astral was there to give astral access if you didn't happen to have any on your pretender.