Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Or undeath, as the case may be. I am deliberately trying to play differently in each MP game I am in, just to get a feel for the MP experience. In my first MP game ever (which is still ongoing) I'm playing as EA T'ien Ch'i and being super-honorable. In this game, when Jotunhiem and I agreed your empire needed a haircut, we decided to sow a little misinformation along the way.

That said, I was deliberate in never offering nor accepting an NAP from you. When you smelled BS and demanded one, I came clean instead. I used weasel words and deliberately left some truths out when dealing with you but I am not, nor ever will be, a pact-breaker. For example, Marignon and I have a fairly long NAP agreement in place. I will not be crossing his border in any way (troops, remote attack spells, even anonymous attack spells) while that agreement holds true. And given how busy I'm likely to be for the next umpteen turns, I'm not likely to want to wage war on Marignon even then.

---

Before all the warring and the scheming, back during an innocent time of murdering indies, I was trying to hire cheap researchers, build castles and expand with cheap-but-effective archer+tower shield troops against the indies. Then Marignon showed up with water blessed Knights of the Chalice and ruined both of my expansion armies. It would have been 3 or 4 turns of frantic research and expensive re-arming before I would have had a chance of even slowing those guys down so I ran with my tail between my legs and cried "peace!" And when Marignon said "sure, for another three of your provinces" I said "Sure!" because keeping peace between me and Marignon at that moment was about the most important thing I could do unless I wanted to completely de-rail my early game booming.

Diplomacy can suck when you are at a disadvantage and the other guys knows that, but it is often better than the alternatives.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

In addition, stagnation is death in these games (as I'm painfully learning as my role in my other MP game ends). In that one, I was a peacefulish, isolationist Niefelheim focused mostly on research than gaining land. I put off a war that should have happened so much earlier to get a little more research done, and when I finally started and ended that war, I was immediately consumed by the conquered nation's neighbor and have only a couple of provinces left (though he's been stalling on finishing me because of my other neighbor, who went to war with him once I got invaded).

Basically, we both needed to expand and eliminate some competition, and we both already had NAPs with our other neighbors, so you ended up with the short straw.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Phew

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I'm positive that no NAP was offered or accepted. That's my point. I should had enforced one. When both you and Jotun offered a "stable border" right in the begining, I accepted, trying to buy your confidence (as my plan was not being overly aggresive). I should had not accepted. I was the 800 lb gorilla in the early game, so I should had enforced my conditions, just like Marignon did. If you want stable borders, then NAP. If you don't NAP, it's free for all (and since you are not interested in NAP, then you are interested in waring me, so It's better being the one that jumps than the one that got jumped).

I, however, feel that I've been cheated. You offered a deal about not using your troops against me and giving me info about Jotun plans, I agreed, and I paid 400g for that. I did not receive what I paid for, and that's breaking a pact. Imho, that's not different to agreeing to pay 15 gems for a item, paying the gems, and never getting the item. That said, it's not the end of the world, I'm not going to rage-quite. Just that I feel I was cheated, and I can't change what I feel. However, this is a wargame, and we are entitled to war each other, sooner or later. Only one can win, and we all know that any alliance or deal made, must end sooner or later, becouse in the end game everybody has to kill everyone else.

It's not like I'm going to hate you and attack you on sight in any game we cross, I'm not that childish. It's just that I have a different approach to making deals. My approach is not the only valid, though, and we are here to learn. As I told you, I learnt a very valuable lesson today: "Don't trust."

There's a poker saying: in every poker table, there's a fish. If you don't know who the fish is, then you are the fish. I was the fish in this negotiation. I could had jumped on you much earlier, and I did not. Compassion is a bad trait in war :)

That said: I also like to play vastly different. I don't have a lot of MP games in my back (this is my sixth I think), and most of them were done with my RL friends (so it's a sliglthly different metagame). But, however, I like to make different tactics and approachs. In LA with Marignon (a nation often played as late-game and research) I tried to rush the first nation I crossed with (which happened to be you, to my dismay, as I got crushed). In this MA game, I built a very strong early game Nation with triple bless, but my strategy was actually better suited for midgame. I've learned in both games, and I'll do better in next games :)

To SpaceViking21: Let's see how short is the short Straw. I'm not dead yet :P

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

All right, the items, gems and gold trades are inviolable.

The NAP it´s not binding, but if two nations agree for 3 turn warning before breaking a NAP treaty, this treaty must be enforced , and should be posted in this thread(optional).

Banned are the usual things, copying Bogus orders, excessive Scout blocking(probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement), filling other peoples Lab with crap to prevent his own forge.

Do all of you like this?

I think i should look through my english grammar books.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I meant the diplomatic short straw (as you ended up as the subject of the "hey, let's get this guy and split his stuff" talk), but point taken.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I acctually made a mistake in my sentence. I'm already dead. But that only makes me tougher :-)

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Somebody should do a report, it'll be nice to hear how things are going arund the world. We know there's war between pythium and machaka, also between tienchi/jotun and ermor. What about he others? It sounds as if Man and Marignon have their border disputes too, dont they?

Later we should try to tell what strategies went wrong and which ones worked, both us and our oponents ones. Thus we could debate a bit, and learn stuff, so we can take off the "noob" label :-P

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I really like your communication in this thread.
I am sorry that my time is very limited atm between my job, building a house, three small children and three games of dom3.
So I will not be communicating that much. Nonetheless I am happy about any diplomatic connection.

Yes, Marignon and me we have some problems. I have to be honest and say it all originated from me.
When I met Marignon he had the fewest provinces, the smallest army and the smallest income. Some rather weak indy provinces right beside his home were not taken, so I thought him an easy target and instantly attacked.
Learned very soon his knights of the chalice are really great, he wiped out one of my armies. He then was too bold and learned that my Knights of Avalon are not bad either, when he lost a good part of his army. Since then our knights have been more or less circling each other without another major fight.
Marignon is much tougher than I thought, and whats puzzeling me: I would have thought our war would drag on other parts of his realm, but the contrary is true. Marignon has improved in all statistics since the start of the war. He is now even the largest of the smaller nations. Don't know how he manages and don't know why he had so slow a start with those great knights. But in the end I am sure he will collapse to my forces. I just bring to much to the fight. Finally my bards and not my knights will decide this war.

Btw: Could anyone comment on the battle between Tien Chi and Machaka? Must have been epic. Really sorry I missed it.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Tien Chi is facing Ermor. Yes, the battle was epic, and despise good mages and priests siding with Tien Chi, the final outcome was, I think, vastly favorable to Ermor. Apostacy is such a great national spell for Ermor that I can not praise it enough, it insta kill enemy sacreds. And that include priestly mages. Solar Rays did quite a lot of damage to Ermor sacred Vestals, though, so it wasn't a free victory.

Right now in that side of the world war, Ermor has recuperated bassically all their initial territory, but 2 provinces (one of them with a castle). Ermor is recruiting more than he is losing, and seems holding well, although still at numeric disventage when you add up both Tien Chi and Jotun troops. The SC chasis of Jotun Good is quite impressive, and it won't be really easy to face them, but at the very least, Ermor has survived the initial "shock and awe" phase of surprise war, so probably would be a long war.

On your question about Marignon: I bet, like LA Ulm and other Resource Heavy nations, that Knights of Chalice aren't easy to build up. Probably he can recruit 1, maybe 2 in the first few turns. 1 soldier, no matter how good (with maybe the exception of Niefelheim sacreds), can't take province on their own. So Marignon probably was struggling to beat the indies around their capitol slowly. Once he cleared his capitol and got full resources, there's no doubt W9 Knights of the Chalice are a force to reckon. Lots of armies fold to them like there's no hope. Tien Ch'i was wise to surrender 3 provinces to them: armies of composite bows barely scratch them before they annhilate the entire army. Probably Marignon did accept the deal from Tien Ch'i becouse of you. Facing 2 opponents is not fun, and he sealed one of the fronts before facing you with his entire army. Without you in the equation, there is no reason for Marignon to seal a pact with Tien Ch'i for 3 provinces, becouse he could just take those 3 provinces, and everyone after that, before Tien Ch'i could get a proper counter from magic. With you facing him too, his diplomatic movement makes much more sense. You are a big country (biggest right now), so he need to focus all his attention on you, and the best way to do so is with a solid friend in his other side.

PS: Assasinating a giant sized fully armored Jotun Herse with lowly cheap skeletons is sooo dirty and fun :)

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

The Nation of Man is soon becoming too powerful for anyone to stop him. I am the only one fighting him at the moment, and as soon as I collapse (which is eventually going to happen), he well devour my realm as full, and become too big for any1 to really challenge him anymore. So unless you other players dont want to grant him the "free win" card, exploit the moment now to attack him, while he has major forces tied to my doorstep at south. Ill be able to hold him here for a turn or two, but soon the window will be closed as I collapse... Take your advantage now on other fronts !!!

Brave men of Marignon fight until the last breath!

TimpaMan

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Interesting Tid-bits of news from around the world. I really like hearing it,


“The Pythium Senate offers a proclomation,

We of Pythia have long been at war with the crunchy spiders of Machaka. They have witnessed, time and time again, the glory that is the hydra parade and though they often try to reroute our parade through side-streets and alleys with their riot-police and tear-gas, the parade’s pomp and splendor will not be denied.”


For Pythia and Maraka, its been pretty much back and forth with no major gains by either party yet. We’ve been fighting over the same 3-4 provinces for about 7-8 turns. So far its only making everyone else stronger.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

You managed to get the only guy on that stack whose entire script was holdx5 stay behind troops. Kinda wish you could script them differently for battle and for assassination attempts. Oh well.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Yeah, Machaka assassinated one of my casters. The spell he cast (and was scripted to cast) before he was slain? communion slave!

Yeah, doesn't help you against an assassin with a bane blade much does it?

Oh well- makes assassins actually somewhat viable- otherwise they would completely suck.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Not really a difference, imho. An assasin with the skull ammulet can kill any other commander in the world, provided that that other commander don't have 2 attacks. It's absolutelly impossible that a Jotun Hirdemen kill more than 1 skellie per turn, and the assassin build 1 skellie per turn. Sooner or later the Jotun will miss an attack, even if only of pure bad luck, and then it will be dead. He can kill 1 skellie, but has 2 on him and one extra getting there every turn.

There are ways to avoid this, sure (which i'll gladly share in a couple of turns if nobody does before :) ), but I doubt scripting any different set up of orders will change the result.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I did not try yet, but I guess a vine shield would help in that situation. throw in a firebrand with its AOE and you should loose.
Fr me thats a quite common equipment on my thugs.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Other possibilities: take body guards, or a mage with protection high enough to stand the skeletons,summons also will help

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

How do bodyguards work?

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Well, the big problems there were:

1. I can only forge frost brands at the moment. To my knowledge, frost brands are ineffective (or less effective) against skeletonspam.

2. He got a Herse, which I generally don't even bother outfitting as they're pretty mediocre unless someone else can bless them (and then I'd rather have a Jarl bless himself and go at it).

3. The big weakness of giants in this situation is their size. Since every attack towards a unit reduces their defence, he can glob more guys onto my giant commanders and win via attrition (those skeletons will hit eventually).

That said, I do have stuff in place now to help against that, but I can't talk about it now (for obvious reasons), and I'm not sure if it's going to be the silver bullet for that strat or if it will fail utterly.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

If you assign troops to "guard commander", then they will be present during assassination attempts. However, only 5 at a time can act as bodyguards.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

This is the best solution, yep.


Vineshield (or any protection actually) won't really work. In an assasination, once the assassin start to create 1 minion per turn (skellies or imps), the victim is defenceless unless it can:
1) fly
2) kill more than one skellie per turn and still move (quicken self for example).

Every single turn, one skellie is built. Once you are "grab" in combat, your only action is to attack. You attack one of the skellies and there are 2 options:
1) you kill the skellie, so you are grab by the next one in the queue
2) you don't kill the skellie, so right now there are 2 skellies in the queue, you can't kill them faster than they produce, and you will eventually go down. At the very least, you will fail morale sooner or later (fleeing from assasination means death), while skellies are unroutable.

The easy counter is to put bodyguards. While one of the body guards kill the skellie, the main character advance (or the other way: the character kill and the guard advance). The assasins aren't nothing to write home about stat wise (the human ones at least), so pretty much any soldier would kill him.

But they are damn cheap, and a cool tool to try here and there. They aren't the ultimate weapon, but they do their tricks.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Unless you use a ring of warning, then its 10 bodyguards.
But 5 Knights of Avalon or Wardens of Avalon would make a short story of that skellyspam.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

[quote=SpaceViking21;786132]I don't think thats important. If you only have one unit it can be attacked from all surrounding squares. Regardless if it is a Jarl or an Hoburg.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

LOL :P
5 guys with clubs will beat the crap of that skelliespam :P

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Well the shield will hold the skellies, the brand will wipe one square (=3 skellies).
I'd bet it would work.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

the brand alone is enough to win, I think. The Vine Shield won't add much (in this very specific situation. It's a wonderful item, no doubt)

I made some test before making the attempt, anything that can kill 2 skellies in a round will defeat them. That includes a werewolf with 2 claw attacks: eventually will find a spot to advance a couple steps, until he has the chance to put his claws into the poor assasin.

However, anything not able to kill at least 2 skellies a turn (or kill one and advance), is pretty much doomed. And that includes some (few) SC Pretener chasis...

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

and THAT'S why he's the king.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Yep, it's a good SC chasis.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Ermor has been handling itself well against T'ien Ch'i. And just as importantly, T'ien Ch'i has not been handling itself particularly well against Ermor (more on this below). The particulars of Ermor's front against the giants we know almost nothing about.

T'ien Ch'i is a nation characterized by two things: magical diversity (all paths but blood and death are available in meaningful quantities to MA T'ien Ch'i) and specialized troops. T'ien Ch'i has composite bows, crossbows, towershields and spears (in light, medium and heavy infantry varieties), glaves (also in light, medium and heavy), pikes, cavalry archers, medium cavalry archers and straight-up heavy cavalry. Their recruitable commanders include have cheap patrollers, spies, healers, fortune-telling priests, cheap sacred researchers, sage-bonus researchers who can be hired without a lab, cheap communion casters as well as two flavors of super diverse cap-only mages. Their recruit screen is substantially larger than most other nations'. About the only things they don't do are recruitable thugs and sacred soldiers worth creating a bless around. However, all their troops are either unimpressive outside of their specialty or too resource-heavy to properly mass. That means you either bring the right tool to the fight or you face an expensive battle (win or lose). This includes bringing the right magic to a fight because T'ien Ch'i under-performs without good magical back-up unless facing indie-level opposition.

The normal response to high-caliber undead is to spam dust to dust; a low-research, D1 spell. Unforunately, MA T'ien Ch'i, unlike every other age of T'ien Ch'i, has no native death access so we've been forced to use the S2, evocation spell Solar Rays instead. So T'ien Ch'i charged into the battle with a finely tuned and intricately crafted host meant to burn the undead to cinders with stellar lasers... only to find that the undead aren't nearly as laser-able as was previously hoped. I'm not 100% sure why; I thought that spell didn't allow for an MR save but it just doesn't seem to be zapping particularly well. Regardless, T'ien Ch'i has lost a few minor and one major engagement with Ermor and has been engaging in a fighting retreat ever since.

Either we will find something that does work or we will be overrun and assimilated into the Ermorian empire. Playing T'ien Ch'i gives you access to almost every type of unit and almost every type of spell this game has to offer, which is excellent. However, until you learn to use those troops effectively and until you do whatever is required to unlock those spells (research, forging boosters, forming communions, etc.) you are a slightly expensive and very squishy nation of humans wearing robes.

T'ien Ch'i: succeeding or failing really, really big with virtually nothing in-between.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

It was a bristling cold dawn in the province of Feldan Woods when finally the two large hosts of knights clashed. Man forces where prepared and waiting. 32 Knights of Avalon on their white unicorns. White armor, blue shields, glistening lances and horns shimmering with magic. Commanded by Lancelot, their commander, a black spot in their ranks due to his black steel plate armor.
In addition 17 Knights, commanded by Beorthric the Knight of the Stone.
Those forces were supported by a squad of longbowmen commanded by Cibragol, a host of ghouls under Yazrid ibn Hassar, some Wardens and the local Militia. And last but not least by several mothers of Avalon and Bards.

The Marignon attackers brought 48 Knights of the Chalice under Angelique d'Armant the Heroine and Peter the Paladin (so 51:50, counting the horses). They were supported by few foot soldiers, 2 High Inquisitors and one Grand Master.

Man opened the fight by Songs of Quickness and some Lightning Bolts. Then the ghouls and Militia attacked. The Knights waited.
The Marignon Knights charged into the Ghouls, piercing a many of them with their lances, which became useless after this charge.

Then the countercharge of Mans Knight came and their Lances finished the lives of many a Knight of the Chalice. This decisive charge essentially sealed the fate of Marignon, tilting the numbers in Mans favor. Marignon fought valiantly, and many a Knight of Avalon died, but the outcome was inevitable.

Great deeds were performed that day the greatest by Beorthric, who charged all alone to the back of the Marignon formation, taking on 7 Knights of the Chalice single handedly. He took several minor wounds but in the end he saw the tails of his enemies horses.

The battle was over by noon. The snow all around a bloody mess, littered with corpses of men and horses.

20 Knights of Avalon and 12 Knights survived the day. Together with most of the Archers and Wardens. Of the leaders of Man only one Mother fell. The Ghouls were eradicated completely.

Of Marignon 9 Knights managed to flee the field of battle as well as the Heroine the Paladin and one of the High Inquisitors.

A glorious victory for Avalon, which opens up the road to Marignon itself!

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Yep. End came sooner than I thought. Man was too strong for me to fight him solo. Didnt have really much chances from the beginning, surprisedly managed this far. My production is at 0 atm, cos of his spellcasting etc (unrest at capital over100), armies cruished, so basicly theres only my army free provinces there for him to cap now. As I told before, he will devour my country now as whole, and get some 10+ provinces more...

Good luck stopping him after this.
Well, its good time for me to quit anyhow, leaving on trip on tuesday, wouldnt have been able to play next week anyway:)

Made marignon computer controlled. Thx for the game guys.

TimpaMan

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

You decided the time yourself by attacking me.
We could have circled each other for several more turns, but that would only have made me stronger so I can understand your decision and anticipated it. I mustered all my troops in the region in that province. Had you won, that would have probably bought you a year time or so.

I have to thank you for the fight. It was fun.

I am sorry I had to kick you so early. Normally I am much more diplomatic, but you seemed so week (which was a misinterpretation, I know now) that I could not think of you as a valuable ally. My only other option for an enemy would have been Ermor, but he was very strong then, and it would have meant a very long and costly war with uncertain outcome. So I decided you as the target. I hope you don't take it personal and had at least a little fun. CU

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Yes, thats the work of my Bards.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I was planning to say it later, but now the debate arised, I'll talk about that.

Dust to dust is NOT a good spell against the Vestals. It offer you nothing that any other evocation spell do not.

Dust to dust do 22 AN armor in AoE 1 with precision 3. However, the vestals have 9 hp and protection 0. Any other spell kills them exactly wih the same way. A fireball kills them exactly as a dust to dust does.
Solar Rays work much much much better. It has much higher precision, and although its lower damage, it kills them right on the spot regardless. It does not allow you MR check. But my vestals have S9 bless, that means they ignore the first hit, including spells. That, however,is true for Dust to Dust, which, in addition, miss much more (due to lower precision bonus). And both kill them right in the spot.

The reason Jotun managed to have great success against Vestals with Dust to Dust in our fisrt battle, was becouse the Vestals were guided by indie priest, and had wrong script. Indie priest unholy bless area is tiny, and most of them went into battle without Twist Fate frim S9 bless. Then Dust to dust killed them, yes. But any other AoE 1+ will have done the trick: fireball, flare, lightning bolt, cold bolt... Some of thise have higher precision, some others have higher AoE. And anyone that does 9+ damage is so good to kill them as Dust to Dust is.

Solar Ray is the best low level spell against them imho. Its just that S9 bless force you to kill them twice. But that is so regardless of the spell used

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Well, the reason I've been using Dust is because access to D1 is much, much more common than access to S2 for Jotunheim. My only S2 option is to recruit a cap-only mage and hope for lucky randoms. D1 is available as a 1/4 shot from any fort, and guaranteed at the capital.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Sure. And it's very easy to research too, it's harder to research evo3 just for solar ray, if you have nothing else of interest in the path.

What I mean is that any single AoE in the game is so good against Vestals as Dust to Dust is. A Flare kills them just as good.

Dust to Dust really shines against high HP high Prot undeads, such as Bane Lords, Behemoths, or even Joun Longdeads. Vestals are fragile and have no prot, 22AN is just as good as 9 normal damage against thm.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

OK, here's the deal. I'm going to be out of town on weekdays for five days straight, for the next three weeks. I come home on weekends, but that's not going to fit the host schedule. So basically:

1. I need a sub. I've made a post in the forum, but no hits so far.

2. We change the host schedule to a 6/7 day host. I'll be able to keep playing when I'm back on weekends, but this will slow the game down drastically and I wouldn't blame anyone for not liking this option.

Any ideas?

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I can live with a slow period in the game.
Better than making an important nation AI.
We should slow down anyway some time soon, because turns tend to become longer now.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

:(
6 days host is quite a ton for such interesting game. If you can't find a sub that's the only other solution I can see, though.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Don´t worry, if a miracle sub doesn´t shows up i´ll change hosting interval.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

We can try something, in MorlaLAnoob we had the same issue, and triqui :angel comes to our rescue.

He was losing in MorlaLAnoob and goes AI to sub another nation in the same game. Machaka is facing destruction, maybe Anaconda can help us this time.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

the difference is I was beyond hope in LA Morla, Anaconda still has options I think. Although this turn his armies made a huge drop, it looks like he got a huge lose.
If he can substitute, it's a good option though.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

If he does, i would like to hear about his pretender design and short life.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

I just checked the scores in Llamaserver, I thought Machaka was in better position. It has 3 provinces, he's pretty much out. Sounds as a good substitute for Jotunheim, actually.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

That battle really put a few of my guys in the hall of fame- i know its temporary but it looks pretty cool for me for right now. :P

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

The senate of Pythium is glad to announce a NAP (5 turns) between itself and the nation of Ulm. Additionally, the nation of Ulm agrees to provide the Pythium senate with a staff of elemental mastery within 2-4 turns.

(just so its all on the up and up)


Additionally, Pythia would like to reveal to the world the existance of a NAP (3 turns) between itself and Jotunheim.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Your's is trully a nation of Heroes. I wonder how they managed to make such amount of kills. Were they equiped (with frostbrands/firebrands, etc)?

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

Marignon already went AI, you could ask TimpaMan to sub.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

He was going on holidays, I don't know if he could do the sub. Would be a great option too.

Re: Morla MA noob game (running)
 

he might be able later this week, i dont know at all if hes will thou. I cant neither, I am sry.