Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I switched to MBT and am running a similar test to above, will post if any junk pops on MBT.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Could it be related to battle damage somehow?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

It could be related to anything that happens in the game....... that is what we are trying to find out

What kind of " battle damage" are you thinking of ?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

MBT has the same issue

15500 points (both sides)
USA vs Soviet Assault
June 1989
same params as DRG's sans above.

Junk on the left.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yes we know MBT and WW2 will have the same issues as the code is by design, identical so maps can be swapped

Here is something to test
I got it down to seeing junk with 5250 defender points

Try a pure armour battle with 6000 defender points....... just buy armour..... no arty.... no infantry and I put the battle on a dead flat level one green grass map....nothing but green grass

Turn 7..... NO JUNK

This thing is starting to get "annoying". this ***MAY*** be terrain related but if it is it is realted to the orginal terrain that was used by V1 not the newer stuff
:doh:

Look at the terrain that does appear as junk .......it's all "basic" terrain nothing "fancy"

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

It's possible the junk isn't making the game crash, as I've seen "grassy junk" hundreds of times, and I've witnessed the game crash only a dozen times or so over the years. Something else could be making the game crash and the junk has nothing to do with it. It could be just a coincidence, giving us a false lead.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I have a vague memory of sometimes seeing the junk like forever, but taking no notice of it as it never affected game play - and I usually play on green maps, and also - never any really huge scenarios especially those ones with a gigantic barrage and air show at the beginning!. Never saw any crash, or I would have been on that.

The junk was always the green hex edge tiles - no idea what was stuffing these into the smoke array, but have made a quick fix to sweep out any tiles that arent in the correct range for smoke tiles out of that array before displaying it, seems to work, copied to Don to test.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I mean the craters and stuff. I assume when those are made the hexes have to be "updated" somehow? Might be something goes wrong there, maybe hexes with the wrong number also are affected.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yes, the cratering IS something I was working towards but testing for something like this needs to be methodical and I had not got to damage yet

There may be good news. Andy has passed on a potential fix to me to test but I have to be out most of the day

We will keep everyone informed and IF this does elliminate the junk the next step is to see if that stops the crashes

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I am in the process of running tests with the code Andy sent me and SO FAR it appears to have fixed the edge junk problem. All the saves I had made that had showed edge junk now do not show it

What I am doing now is let the scenarios where junk was seen that crashed run and that is going to take awhile

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Running this now and on turn 8. The scenario involves a multitude of exchanges of fire per turn and I will let it run overnight if need be

NO junk on the west edge.......

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I let that run AI vs AI. When I went to bed it was on turn 21. Got up at 2:30 am and checked it and the game had ended on turn 61

https://i.imgur.com/S514aPO.png


So......... NO Junk........ NO crashing

Andy put his finger on the cause first try after a number of tests were run to elliminate other causes and the fix WAS in the smoke code

We will run some more checks then apply the fix to MBT and run some checks. That will take time to do and then probably issue a replacement EXE but it has not been decided if we will do that now or wait until the next official patch / update

To be determined . We know it fixed the edge junk and stops the crashes but now we need to test to see if there are any unintended consequences..... that can take time because initially we knew what to look for......with the "unintended consequences"........ we don't

That said I did not see anything odd happening with this save game running but I wasn't specically looking for things other than the known issues

Don

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Same save after code fix applied

https://i.imgur.com/x9ST6g3.png

Not we start looking for any "GOTCHA!"s

EDIT........ and I think I see one........ Note the building on fire in the first save with the junk is not burning in the save after the junk fix

GOTCHA!......

So....... this could take awhile yet. Also note there is a burning wreck in one and not the other but these screen shots may not be from the same point in the game so I need to double check that too

EDIT

GOOD NEWS ( for me.)

I restarted MBT with the release EXE and that first screen shot WAS from a later time in the game

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

In this one particulae case that is not junk. The original sceanrio just used green grass to represent the ships and I changed it to pavement and missed that one spot..... now corrected

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Good news........... so far

I found the save from later in the battle from the MBT Scenario WW3: Not so welcome that showed the junk, burning buildings and burning vehicles and using the EXE with the fix, the burning buildings and vehicles are still there but the edge junk is gone

Testing continues

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Have you thought about "field testing" the fixed binary? Some of the crashes the players have encountered, were hard to reproduce on your computer, if I remember correctly.

Chances would also increase some more exotic, but easy to spot, consequences are found, I guess.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I said that in post #112

When we are done testing that question will be decided but we are not issuing anything until we are convinced that on our machines it is working properly. THEN we will decide if sending it out for " field testing" is warranted

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Hi DRG, the icon used when you first access this thread was a pissed off frowning face, now its a smiling happy face, so it seems like you might have solved the problem. What was it, or is it still to early to tell for sure? Anyway it looks very promising and I hope a solution was found, because like I say, it happened to me too along time ago, and all that junk sure got ugly and got on my nerves. It was so bad, the fix could be practically considered a graphical upgrade!

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Read the posts I made today and you will find the answer

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

So, smoke had something to do with it. I knew it, but I didn't want to say anything because I might have accidentally caused you guys to chase a false lead, as I really didn't know for sure, I just had a hunch it was smoke related. The way the junk just laid over everything, made it look like it was green smoke. When it happened to me, I vaguely remember it never showed up until someone laid a smoke screen. I wonder if fire in general could also cause it, since fire also causes smoke.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Odd it was smoke, but yet no smoke was used in the battles when I saw the junk, unless the AI was dropping in off map.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Could be some of the off map, counter battery fire lands short and just happens to fall on the map.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Makes sense.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Show me a save game of a battle in progress with no smoke at all anywhere on the map

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Okay, next one I get where the junk is at the start of the fight or shows up when I go to set up my forces on the left side of the map I will.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I started scenario #400 just before bed last night and let it run AI vs AI using the experimental EXE

It was still running when I got up.

It was on Turn 50

No junk anywhere and obviously it did not crash the game

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

If you can show me a map with no units set up on the left side of the map where no turn had been played and there is junk terrain around the left edge I will be very interested in seeing it given the origins of this issue has been traced back to V1 so what you descibe has taken 18 years to be reported and it was reported after we annouced we appear to have found a fix for it.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

From memory, I can't remember if it was only indirect smoke rounds that caused the junk or some other type of indirect artillery that caused the junk. It's also important to consider that off map artillery may be causing the junk. Anyway, I hope your testing methods are thorough because players will now be looking for it, and expect it to be fixed if a fix to the problem is issued.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I am not arguing with you Don, so stick a pin in the ego and save that for someone who is. My comment was I found it odd that is all. Get off your high horse over things. I get it you don't like it when folks are critical of things. Guess what, I am not being that. It's an odd bug that is all.

If I have a map that pops up the junk terrain prior to deploying troops and prior to the opening shots of the game going off, I will indeed post it. If the bug is indeed coming from the smoke code then hey great problems solved.

Save the hostile comments for those who are going full bore into things, which none of us here are doing.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Great...that is all I was asking for but reading things in to my posts that are not there has been going on for years. Welcome to the club

Repeated testing showed the catalyst was smoke generated on the map and "smoke" can be fires from a destroyed tank or barrel smoke from a fired mortar or smoke generated from arty impacts..... and of course, smoke shells

So YES both Andy and I would be very interested in seeing a map that has not had any battle played on it yet that shows the type of terrain junk along the west edge that was showing up after a few turns of battle.

IF one can be produced we can see if the fix Andy made corrects it when it is loaded with the experimental EXE.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Ran another test with MBT scenario #520 WW3, not so welcome which is a bit of a monster but it is only 30 turns

This is one we had reported as "unable to complete" through Sprapnel Customer service and we eventally figured out the game had been crashing around turn 22 and the save we were provided showed considerable amounts of edge junk along the western edge and was the example I used as the before and after in a post #113.

I let it run out AI vs AI and it ended normally with the end game screen on turn 31 and there was no random terrain junk anywhere.

So that is good news but testing continues

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

"It could be related to anything that happens in the game....... that is what we are trying to find out"

This is a long shot but I had reported an issue maybe 12-18 months ago with large buildings disappearing from the map after being hit in the top left hex with large enough ordnance. I thought there was supposed to be a fix with the latest update but it's still happening. Could it be related somehow?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Large buildings have one registration hex. Usually the upper left portion but not always. I have seen them go away when making a map when something is placed though the registration hex but I cannot recal a hit that removed a the whole building

Was it tucked right into the top left hex of the map ?

In any event, It would seem that would be a separte issue to the rogue junk terrain issue..... BUT, if you look at the first image in post #113 there is enough junk there that could hide a building IF enough of it was on the map.... maybe

Do you still have this save game?

ANY saves that show the terrain junk on the left edge that anyone has I am interested in so I can run them with both the release EXE and the fix EXE to see if the fix removes it and if the game continues it stays removed. SO FAR any of the scenarios that have crash reports about them and edge junk that I have ran have all ran to completion with no return of edge junk

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Don,

We had an entire thread on this subject entitled "Vanishing Buildings" a while back and you agreed (eventually) that it was a minor bug and would be fixed. Here's the link to that thread, if it works in this forum...
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52671

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yes, I recal this now..... no save game to test and no screen shot to view except the one I posted. I did say "It's now on next year's to-do list" and then that list got crowded with other things.

Without a save game that shows it we cannot test the exact conditions you had in your game so if it does not do for us what you say it did for you it gets back burnered

I also provided a link to Imgur so larger screen shots can be posted but screenshots are not as good as a save game

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Honestly, I'm not that computer literate and I don't know how to zip and upload a save game. However, the disappearing building issue can be easily duplicated... just target any large building in any scenario (or test) with large enough ordnance to destroy the upper left hex of the building. It may take more than one hit but the entire building will eventually vanish. If you scroll the cursor over that area, the game still says the building is there but it's not seen on the map.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Well maybe after all these year you need to work on that "savvy" a bit ??

"can be easily duplicated" you say ? Well that's interesting

Here is a multi hex building in the upper left corner of the map

https://i.imgur.com/H5oShvz.png

It was hit with all of this
https://i.imgur.com/HQVG73E.png

and this is what it looks like after getting hit with all of that

https://i.imgur.com/VIyCDa2.png


It's still on the map, it has not disappered and I did exactly what you said would ""easily" make it disappear

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

There's no need to get snippy.

Please re-read the thread I referenced. It is an issue and dumping on me won't make it go away.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

JUST FOR FUN

Lets expand on the test of that theory that this "can be easily duplicated"

Here are 6 multi hex buildings placed on a map

https://i.imgur.com/BCFOa7J.png

This is what is targeted on them

https://i.imgur.com/RcGOlPy.png

This is what they look like after all of that lands on them

https://i.imgur.com/FwTA7oS.png

Are all 6 still showing ?

Yes indeed they are

....... so maybe it's fixed?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

And here is what it looks like after the rubble is bounced a second time and I have attached the save game so you can watch it on your machine ( save slot 76 SPWW2)

All the multis are still showing, All have been severly damaged and all have taken multiple hits to what would be their registration hex

https://i.imgur.com/4Gnampb.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Okay, I'm trying to upload 3 screenshots. I made a test scenario with 6 large airport buildings and hit them with 17cm arty. On the first 2 tries 2 buildings vanished right away. After that it took me multiple tries. It doesn't always happen... .like you said in the previous thread, it may only happen 20% of the time.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

OK you have screen shots and I can try to replicate what you did using the screen shots as a guide but that is not nearly as useful as an actual save game and a zipped save game is easy to post, all that is needed is the CMT and DAT file from the saved slot zipped up and posted and then everyone can test it

I just bounced the rubble in my test again...... that is three times 20 batteries of 7.2 inch arty has hit them and the are still there

https://i.imgur.com/xtQWe1u.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I just had a thought... perhaps it's just the 'special' large buildings (airfield, factory, government, misc.)? I don't find the 'regular' large buildings disappearing either when I run the tests.

I made a simple test of 6 airfield buildings and 17cm arty and the buildings vanished about half the time when hit in the top left hex.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

OK here are the building you had in your screenshots which are factory buildings not airport buildings...... they just ended up on the Japanese side of this test map which was cleared to base terrain as your screenshots show

https://i.imgur.com/cGpfpYl.png

This is them targeted by, again, 20 batteries of 7.2in Arty

https://i.imgur.com/zW6UT4m.png

This is the results of the first bombardment and all of these screenshots were taken immediatly after the bombardment. The map position was not changed

https://i.imgur.com/Mx6S0bg.png


then the second stonk

https://i.imgur.com/mtfpJ3T.png


Then targeted for the third go

https://i.imgur.com/MsfBG9G.png

Then after that

https://i.imgur.com/lNXAOTV.png


I watched each barrage very carefully. At no time did a building disapear

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I don't know what to say. I've (hopefully) attached the test scenario I created, which still has the buildings disappearing when I run it. Sometimes it doesn't happen on the first try and I normally start the scenario over to try again, instead of continuing the barrage.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

OK "EXCITING NEWS" ( maybe.......)

Don Lazov set up a test sceanrio in MBT that in his case showed two buildings disapear and in the one I ran on my machine one building did the first time through but not the second but in the third run through 5 disapeared but in the fourth run though 3 did

"good news" no edge junk was produced but now we have an (almost) consistantly repeatable test scenario or at least one that will show the problem at least once.

WHY this did not happen in the tests I build..... IDK but I watched each of them carfully and nothing went anywhere

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Beeg, I was able to reproduce, what you have been describing. Do I understand correctly, that the buildings in your case reappear AFTER reloading the savegame?
That has been the case in my test run.

I attached a zipfile with both a screenshot, as well as the savegame file, I saved immediately after taking the screenshot.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Me either........ when I build a test game/scenario they never disapear.....when other people build one, they do

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I will have a look at this as well......... as to reappearing after the save game is loaded. I just saved Lazovs test that showed me buildings that had disapeared then reloaded it and the building that had been missing no longer were

But , again, in all these tests I have personally built and ran none lost any buildings ......why that is is yet another mystery but it would appear the only way to debug this will be with a freshly run example as reloading a save seems to reset them but AS USUAL more testing is needed

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I ran your save but I had to move it to a differnet sceanio slot but it is set up nearly identical to the one I built but after the barrage one building was gone

https://i.imgur.com/bKhhh0S.png

but look at my example that had 3 bombardments made and NOTHING CHANGES

I saved it and reloaded it and :doh:

https://i.imgur.com/fuNbw2F.png