.com.unity Forums - Damage Calculation

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Re: Damage Calculation

Quote:

Originally posted by Krsqk:
I got it! I got it! It's an error of... ... ...... ........ .... ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) duplication!!!!! Cultural traits are mentioned right underneath racial traits, where each culture affecting combat is listed. Later, near the bottom of the Attack modifiers, the "cultral" modifier Category Space Combat is listed. Quickngruvn indirectly touched on it on Nov. 16, 16:33 when he noticed that racial and cultural traits were combined. He fixed your typo in his correction (which came from the double entry), but didn't notice it was mentioned twice.

Krsqk..You got it!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Congratulations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Damage Calculation

Just a quick rundown on the hints

Hint #1 Someone has indirectly touched on the "error".
Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.
Hint #3 It is not a punctuation error, grammar error, spelling error or additional lines.
Hint #4 Possibly too much focus has been placed on individual trees rather than the forest.
Hint #5 It is an error of d _ _ _ _ _ _ tion.

Krsqk is right in his analysis. But read right, the hints could have led a person to the answer very quickly.

Hint #1 talks of the error being "touched on".

But what data is "touched on" and what isn't?

If you interpreted it to mean anyone having anything to do with the data then it is really not a clue at all. All data would be "touched on". So what could it mean?

If you interpreted it to mean anyone having anything to do with data AFTER it was entered into the list, it then a very important clue.

How is this? Well, there is only one person who could have entered any data which was not touched on. Moi. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif There was no discussion, request for it to be entered etc... it was just entered by me.

More significantly, I entered about 75% to 80% of the data this way. The percentage drops with discussion of some of the data because it is then "touched on" but about two-thirds or three-quarters of the data was never directly or indirectly addressed in discussions before or after it was entered.

So, a person who made a print out of the data at the time the puzzle was presented, could have gotten a very short list of 10 to 15 items by eliminating the ones which were not "touched on".

Granted the phrase is vague but it was designed to be vague otherwise you guys would have come up with the answer right away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif And there would not have been any fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Edit: and I was very open about it when I said this at the time I presented the first hint...
Quote:
-------------------------------------
I know the hint is somewhat obtuse, but it is designed to be. So please do not ask for clarification. It may not be obvious now, but when you "see" the error, you will understand why I phrased it in this particular way.]
-----------------------------------------

Hint #2 used the word "mechanically" very blatantly (quotes were used to bring attention to it!) and was actually a hint to try out an example. Any example would have worked unless the person just "mechanicaly" entered the figures without any thought at all. Ergo the point of "mechanically".

Of much lesser importance, a trait like Berzerker would lead to an error. a trait like scientists would not. Therefore the reference to "may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability"

The hint also automatically excluded the data in the "special" section.

The rest of the hints are self explanetory.

Hope you guys had fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif I did!

[ November 20, 2002, 16:23: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: Damage Calculation

Quote:

Originally posted by Wardad:
Hey now....
I also heard that racial and cultural bonuses apply only to SHIPS, and UNITS are not affected.

Which would mean you need a seperate list for ships. It would also make sense to have a list for each unit.
Since some units use standard componants (SATs, WP, Drones) and some (Fighters, Troops) have their own componants, and some (WP, Troops) are on planets and subject to bombardment, but one type can only attack a similar unit (troops).

Re: Damage Calculation

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gryphin:
Against the Religious Talisman
Stealth / Scattering Armor, ECM, and Experience: don’t help reduce hit probability.
As such, don’t use ECM or Stealth / Scattering Armor against that race. Try to keep your Experienced ships to use against other races..

Re: Damage Calculation

Sort of, although if the talisman ships are good and trained, you may need to train your ships in order to have a good chance to hit them. But the ECM and special armors won't help against the talisman ships.

Missile, Boarding, Drone Carrier, and Ram ships may be useful against the Talisman fleet though, and those don't need training to hit with. Just don't send them in alone - used combined arms, with trained direct-fire ships behind them.

PvK

Re: Damage Calculation

Here is the new listing.

I thought I�d try something new. Sometimes questions just fall through the holes in a discussion and are never answered. So, where there is uncertainty, I highlight the uncertainty with a ��===�, giving the name and date of the reference.

This way, we may be able to clear up issues that just get lost.

I haven�t fixed up the �special� section yet, so please bear with me on that.
===============================================

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Base Bonus 100% (All calculations start at 100%)
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends aggressiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Small Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 20%
..lvl 3 30%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Incinerator Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magnifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units
Weapon Mount
..Base Planetary Attack Modifier 30% �===(SUICIDE JUNKIE) IF I UNDERSTAND SJ, A SMALL WP WOULD BE 30%, A LARGE WP WOULD BE 70% (40+30), A HEAVY WP WOULD BE 90% (30 +60), ETC.
..Large WP/Base Mount 40%
..Heavy WP/Base Mount 60%
..Massive WP/Base Mount 80%
Default Attack Bonus 50%? �=== (WARDAD�s QUESTION, NOV 19, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?)

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends defensiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Small ECM
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 20%
..lvl 3 30%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%
Distance Modifier
..Sectors between direct fire weapon of attacker and target, 10% X sectors
Facilities
Missile defence modifer vs PDC�s 40
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

SPECIAL CASE (Weapons not affect by attack or defence bonuses)
..Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (unchanged by any factor)
..Mines 100%
..Missiles (Capital Ship and Plasma) 100%
..Drones 100%
..Stellar Nucleonic Torpedo 100% �===
..Intel Projects �===

================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

Re: Damage Calculation

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK:
Sort of, although if the talisman ships are good and trained, you may need to train your ships in order to have a good chance to hit them. But the ECM and special armors won't help against the talisman ships.

Missile, Boarding, Drone Carrier, and Ram ships may be useful against the Talisman fleet though, and those don't need training to hit with. Just don't send them in alone - used combined arms, with trained direct-fire ships behind them.

PvK

Quite right.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We need ship and fleet training in order to increase our chances of hitting enemy ships. We don't need it to decrease our chances of being hit, since the Talisman rigidly fixes the chance of our being hit at 100%

Re: Damage Calculation

Quote:

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wardad:
Hey now....
I also heard that racial and cultural bonuses apply only to SHIPS, and UNITS are not affected.

Which would mean you need a seperate list for ships. It would also make sense to have a list for each unit.
Since some units use standard componants (SATs, WP, Drones) and some (Fighters, Troops) have their own componants, and some (WP, Troops) are on planets and subject to bombardment, but one type can only attack a similar unit (troops).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

You guys are really going to have to help me with this. I know next to nothing about fighters, troops etc.

And Wardad does bring up a very good point. The list could be misleading in that we "assume" everything listed is applicable. But some may not...

Anybody have any ideas on a good format to take note of exceptions without making this list incredibly long and complicated?

Or is the best way to have a separate list for ships, planets, troops, fighters, etc. Groan...(tbontob holds his head in pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )<hr /></blockquote>I have an idea.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

After each entry we could put something like [P,T] or [P,S,F]. The former would mean it would apply to planets and troops, that latter to planets, ships and fighters.

What other categories would we need? Weapons? (PDC's vs missiles)

Re: Damage Calculation

Quote:

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gryphin:
Against the Religious Talisman
Stealth / Scattering Armor, ECM, and Experience: don’t help reduce hit probability.
As such, don’t use ECM or Stealth / Scattering Armor against that race. Try to keep your Experienced ships to use against other races..

You always want to use fully trained ships. In fact, all of your warships should be trained ASAP. The training will give you a 40% bonus to hit the enemy's ships. They will fall faster, and have less time to make use of the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>I just want to confirm what I think has been said.

Would this be correct?
1)Pursue ship and fleet training etc until the "enemy" has the talisman.
2) Once the enemy has the talisman, use the fleet against other races.
3) Build new fleets (without training, ECM or stealth or scattering armor etc) for use against the race with the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>No. Train all ships to the max unless you need them for an emergency immediately. You still want the 40% attack bonus from the training to hit the Talisman ships. They will likely have all the defensive bonuses, so you want as many offensive bonuses as you can get.

Re: Damage Calculation

The rationale is that it takes only seven turns to fully train your ships, and that extra 40% to hit makes a big difference.
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> You Enemy
ECM n/a 60%
Stealth Armor n/a 15%
Scattering Armor n/a 15%
Combat Sensor 65% n/a
----------------------------------------
+65% -90% = -25%</pre><hr /></blockquote>At point blank range, you have a 75% chance to hit. At range 6 (Meson BLaster max), you have 25% to hit. At range 8 (APB max), you have 5% to hit. Fully trained ships add 40% to hit, which makes a big difference. Even four turns of training makes up for all but 1% of the defensive advantage he has. As it is, you've obviously had success with the strategy you've adopted, which goes to show there's more than one way to skin a cat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Damage Calculation

My reason for not using trained ships against Talisman ships is because you will most likely loose them. This could be because I'm using the wrong strategys.
Currently against one of the TDM AI which places them on BCs and BBs I use the following:
Combat Sensors and Max Speed on All ships
Target Ships - BC's with 3 Direct Fire Reload 1 weapons, and the rest Armor III Set to Point Blank.
PDC Ships - LCs with 1 Direct Fire Reload 1, 4 Armor III, and the rest PDC Set to Short Weapons Range
Offensive Ships - BCs with 4 Armor III, As many Direct Fire Large Mount Reload 1 weapons as I can Strategy set to Maximum Range.
Basicaly I expect to loose ships. My hope is the Target ships wiil get asorb more damage while the PDC remove Fighers, and the Offensive ships remove the AIs ships.
So far it is not pefect but if I have a 1/3 numerical advantage it seem to be paying off.
In this senario I feel I'm going to loose the ships anyway so why use the Experianced ships?
Since it is agains the AI I'm not using Training Facilties.
I have not tried the wave of RAM ships, Maybe I will do that for the home system which is my next objective.

[ November 21, 2002, 12:40: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Re: Damage Calculation

Reading through here and watching Combat Replays more closly I have re designed my "Target" and PDC ships. I have Changed the strategy of my "Gun Ships"
Target Shhips now Carry 2 of the heavyiest Reload 1 Guns I can put on them.
PDC Ships, (I like to call Aegis) Carry the same but no armor.
Gun Ships are now out fitted with 2 Reload 2, 1 Multi Track Lve 2, 4 Armor, Rest is filled with heavyest Reload 1 I have.
All ships have Max Speed and Combat Sensors.
I had forgotton to change the Strategy on one Version of a Gun Ship. I noticed in a battle where I had
104 combat ships and the AI had
21 Combat ships
The Target, (Point Bland), and Aegis, (Short Range), ships made major effort to move forward somtimes acidentaly formaing a line that blocked the AI. Ships with "Optimal" Also moved forward. The Optimal did the most damage. In that battle I lost 4 Target Ships, 2 Aegis Ships, and 2 Optimal Strategy Gun Ships

BTYW: Name of AI is withheld so as to not ruin the surprise of anyone who has not had the pleasure / pain of running into them.
Talisman + Organic Armor = You are going to loose a lot of ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Damage Calculation

Unfortunately, I will not be giving much attention to this thread for the next week or so.

I am moving, and that is taking a a lot of time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

It will be enough if I can keep current on my PBW games.