Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I'm fighting the Soul Hunters right now. So far it consists of me hiding behind minefields. When I stick my nose out their torpedoes blow it off.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I dont honestly think that Torps are better than some other weapons in and of themselves, but their research is mighty cheap. Given the way the cost of research mushrooms, but your available points are much flatter in Proportions, techs with a low 'startup cost' are more attractive.

A choice between Torp 5 and a Beam 4...I'll take the Torp almost any day, especially when you factor in the Emissive effects of armor, further degrading the effectiveness of the smaller beams.

Note that I dont think anything is horribly broken in the mod, just that Torps are a really good deal in the early (first 100 turns) game.

Talenn

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

But then, what's the point of researching something that you will use only temporaly?
Isn't it better to go straight for your weapon of choice no matter the cost?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

About the Kt thingy:
What troops are suppose to represent?
I always play calling then Divisions, like Infantry Division, Heavy Infantry Division, Elite Infantry Division, Armor Division, Heavy Armor Division and Elite Armor Division.
That its assuming they are a 10 000 men strong division, because if 1 million Pop unit it 1000 Kt then the small Troop of 10 Kt would be 10 000 people, right?
The thing is that I would like to have all Troops from infantry to Large Troop to weight 10 Kt for cargo porpouses only, not for design.
Is that possible?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

"The thing is that I would like to have all Troops from infantry to Large Troop to weight 10 Kt for cargo porpouses only, not for design.
Is that possible?"

No.

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Ok, then I will create a componet called "recruits" that weights 9 kt with the Pop pic and give the ability of "need 90% recruits" to infantry units.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Wow, good idea. Can I really do this?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, here it is !!! I finally finished AI Balance Mod I sent you Last Thanks Giving 2002 with a few extras. The AI Works great in Solitaire Play, Simultaneous Play, and Finite resources. … You can download at the link below …. Check it out also in the Mod Sticky. AI CAMPAIGN

[ February 21, 2003, 23:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

"Ok, then I will create a componet called "recruits" that weights 9 kt with the Pop pic and give the ability of "need 90% recruits" to infantry units....
Wow, good idea. Can I really do this?"

Ahh..sorta. The only type of that that works is (max) Engines, Cargo Bays, Fighter Bays, Life Support, and Crew Quarters. I'm not sure if the Last three work for troops..

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not at all. In the normal game, it is much more effective to research DUCs, PPBs, and then APBs, than it is to research APBs directly. This is because for the same cost of research, DUCs or PPBs are much more powerful than APBs. The research cost of DUC V and PPB V is very small when compared to APB XII, so researching them first doesn't hurt much at all. Also, Combat Sensors + ECM and DUCs are better than PPBs. You have to factor in researching other things too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Sorry, maybe it has been already discussed or I am missing your point, but what I mean is:

Let's assume, I plan to build ONE metropolis as a considerable project for a small planet.
1) Build it from scratch, needs 21 years.
2) Build a minor city, then upgrade, needs 14 years.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Yes, if you run out of space on the planet, you should go "vertical" and upgrade cities. Not much can be done about upgrade trick. The alternative been to raise the upgrade cost but then you will have to scrap the painfully build expensive cities to replace them with megapolises.

In my previous post I was referring to this scenario: you have a new colony with say 15 slots. You can either build cities or build city, upgrade it, build second city ... The former approach is more profitable but at the end you finish with 15 cities and it will take a century to upgrade them all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, counting the prodution output, which way its more profitable?
Because maybe its not worth the effort to upgrade. I mean pound by pound (bulding time/expected prodution) the cities that you can build in the same time that you build metropolis might be more productive....
And what about Spaceport cities? do they upgrade to metropolis?
I don't know but sometimes I feel that the lowly Mineral miner is the best bet.
.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The upgrade way from the lowest possible facility (minor city) would be more profitable. Your minor cities would produce during the update time AND the overall costs and time are lower than building the higher facility from scratch, see my minor city to metropolis example below.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think they are different families, so they don't.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The upgrade way from the lowest possible facility (minor city) would be more profitable. Your minor cities would produce during the update time AND the overall costs and time are lower than building the higher facility from scratch, see my minor city to metropolis example below.
.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So which way wins the effectiviness contest:
1-Build the 15 minor cities and then upgrade.
2-Build one Minor city, upgrade, then go to the next.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Build, upgrade, build, upgrade. The costs are the same, but if you are upgrading as you go you are benefitting from the increased output of the upgraded facilities.

thing is, it takes something like 10 years (100 turns) for most of the city facilites to repay the min/ rad/ org investment of bulding them. Of course there are other benefits that are harder to quantify (shield generation, cargo space, storage, research/ intel output, looking cool) but if you are counting your minerals you probably want to be building nothing but miners anyway. Cities are only for ppl playing the loooooong game.

As a side note, in my single player game I'm about 500 turns in and I have built several megalopoli - some planets have 2 or 3. I also came across an AI world 2 systems away from its homeworld with over 20 major cities and 2000 million ppl on it! This is one well developped AI...

[ February 24, 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:

Quote:

Build, upgrade, build, upgrade. The costs are the same, but if you are upgrading as you go you are benefitting from the increased output of the upgraded facilities. ...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But the output diference between a minor city and a city doesn't seem to be that great.
Are you sure that its not more efficient to build a new minor city than to upgrade a minor city to a city?
In both cases the original minor city its already producing, but building a new one will bring more income into my treasure than the upgrade increase.
I don't have the game here, so when I get back home I'll check the Facility.txt file to get some hard numbers.
This issue its mighty interesting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This mod is in particular for the little longterm builders in us, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If I would be asked for the most effective way to win, I guess it would be something like:

-not many planets to develop, just for special facilities like ship training etc.
-remote mining for higher production output
-capture as many home planets as soon as possible

But I think the upgrades should take longer or at least as long as the building from scratch and this is not the case. Upgrades can be abused to save time and material. Wasn't there setting value for upgrade costs, maybe this might be tweaked a bit?

EDIT: I am at about 25 years in my single player game and I can second that the AI does quite a good job, developing worlds, ship designs etc., nice ! Troops and WPs on homeworlds, grrrr http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ February 24, 2003, 17:35: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

[quote]Originally posted by Aloofi:
[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:
[qb]

Quote:

Build, upgrade, build, upgrade. ... This issue its mighty interesting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes indeed. It comes up every time proportions mod is discussed. Fascinating.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am fairly certain that that was PvK's intention there.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I have noticed a way to reduce building times in 2.5.2 (or 2.5.1, I am not quite sure):

Build a Minor City then upgrade to Metropolis, I guess it would be the same with Megalopolis if it is in the same family. I saves about 30% material and time if you like to do the needed micromanagement, is it intended?

Same thing with research center I, upgrade to research megaplex III and others.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This topic has been debated hotly in older Proportions' tread. Yes, upgrading facilities vs building new from scratch can be beneficial but sometimes not. For example, it takes almost forever to fill huge brethable world with cultural facilities. So, in the time you build ciry and upgrade it to metroplolis I can build TWO cities if planetary space is not a problem.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I saw that too. I'm about 20 years into the game and I tried to take on a neutral Homeworld, and my mighty fleet got cut to pieces. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
They had 50 WP, 10 of them Medium size, over 10 Space stations (mostly armed shipyards), about 40 sats, plus some 300 fighters and.....troops! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It was amazing, I felt as if I was really taking on a homeworld. I have to handle to PvK and all the others involved making Proportions, its the greatest mod I have ever played in any game. I'm so hooked that I find myself thinking about it when I shouldn't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

By the way, playing without any bonus, the AI out produce me and out research me. Though next time I will play without neutrals. Its too easy to lose 3/4 of my fleet in a battle and then retreat to the neighboring system and be secured because the AI can't attack me there. I'm not playing with neutrals no more. If that have been the Druks I would had probably lost a bunch of colonies until my fleet were able to hold the tide.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am fairly certain that that was PvK's intention there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Upgrade Facility Cost Percent := 50

Hmm, I mean this is ok for let's say research center 1 to upgrade to research center 3. With the extremely larger differences between e.g. minor city and metropolis or higher it looks like ... cheating? But it is OK, if there are good reasons or other restrictions that I do not see yet.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think its kind of right.
Settlement: 5Kt of each resource
Col. Commun: 10 Kt of each
With 50 % upgrade it takes exactly the same time to build one colonial community than to build a settlement and then upgrade.

On the other hand, the investment return is far better on the lowly settlement than in the Colonial Comm.
Settlement cost: 5000 min.
Settlement prod: 125 min.
Returns investment in 40 turns (4 years)

colonial comm cost: 10 000 min.
colonial comm prod: 150 min.
Returns investment in 66 turns (6 years and 6 months)

Minor city cost: 15 000 min.
Minor city Prod: 175 min.
Returns investment in 85 turns (8 years and a half)

So its obvious that is better to build all the settlements you want first, and then start upgrading.
Still, building cities should be considered something like a personal goal or a show of power. Their output doesn't justifie their cost when you compare them to a mineral miner facility:

Mineral Miner I facility cost: 1800 min.
Mineral Miner I facility prod: 200 min.
Returns investment in 9 turns (9 months) and produce more than a minor city.

Mineral Miner Complex I cost: 11 000 min.
Mineral Miner Complex I prod: 400 min.
Returns investment in 27 turns (2 years and 7 months)

So replicating a Homeworld in a colony its just not impossible, but non-profitable, which I think acurately simulate that many things a Homeworld have are not just for profit, but a product of social and cultural evolution.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

By the way, those numbers don't include the cost in organics and rads, cause those take over twice as long as minerals to get them back.

Cultural Center cost: 24Mt min.
Cultural Center Prod: 2000 min.
Returns investment in 12000 turns (1200 years) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

That's a beauty of Proportions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif - sacrifice everything but protect Homeworld from evil aliens.
Last stand of 300 spartans and stuff..

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

[quote]Originally posted by Aloofi:

Quote:

Settlement: 5Kt of each resource Col. Commun: 10 Kt of each With 50 % upgrade it takes exactly the same time to build one colonial community than to build a settlement and then upgrade.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, in case of the upgraded facility costs twice as much as the starting facility. But it is another story if the difference is more than double value, like from minor city to metropolis for example:

Minor city 15000 (each min/org/rad)
Metropolis 100,000

You build a minor city and upgrade with 50,000 to Metropolis means you pay 65,000 overall, a profit of approx. a third (time and material)

Minor city to Megalopolis (250,000) even more:
15,000 + 125,000 =140,000

But I see, it seems to be a necessary kind of compromise. It does not have to be too expensive, so upgrades would not be worthwile against scrap-and-build, OTOH I think the compromise should be more between 60-80%.
Reasons for that:
-Refurbishing a house to a castle is more expensive than to scrap it and build a castle
-Usually the production output is lower than normal during upgrades, but the city is producing 100% during the upgrade activities

[ February 27, 2003, 08:54: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Uuf... I catch the flu and fall way behind on this discussion. Actually, it's probably good to not to be always chiming in immediately, but it will be a while before I can cover everything. I will just throw in some ideas.

* Upgrades and return-on-investment times are generally things I have studied and done deliberately. That is, I expect people to consider upgrading from a city to a metropolis, instead of building a metropolis from scratch. It also makes more sense - metropoli are generally cities for a long time before they become metropoli.

* There is a major effect of lag and return-on-investment to be considered. The question of "which construction path is best?" can only be answered if you first answer the question "how soon do you need a return on your investment?" Often the best thing is to build as many small-scale facilities as possible first, and then build larger facilities one at a time. The dilemma becomes, that this makes the upgrade technique start to become impractical, because SE4 only lets you upgrade ALL facilities of a type at once. So, you end up with a huge spectrum of possible ways to develop, and many of them are "the best" for different times by which you want the return.

* Having said that, I wouldn't consider it "wrong" to increase the facility upgrade cost. I think anything in the 50-100% range will work well. Below 50% will start to cause unintended effects.

* The "upgrade a house to a castle" argument doesn't really apply, I think, because facility "slots" should not be taken to literally represent real estate limits. Planets are enormous, and upgrading from say, a city to a metropolis, does not necessarily require doing anything problematic to the city.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you're talking purely in terms of mineral production, then yes, but you forget all the other advantages a city facility can provide:
Resource storage
Shield generation
Unit storage
Research, intel, org and rad production
Space port and resupply (in some cities).

These are not to be discounted, especially on those planets or systems where you only have one or two facility slots and you want to cram as much as possible into a limited space. In my single player proportions games the vast majority of my facilities are cities of one kind or another.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Well, I was just posting some numbers I took to find out my own building path, but I don't feel like any change needs to be made.
The way I see it, the goal of unreplicable homeworlds have been acomplished, and as I said before, not everything in a city is for profit.
The only change I made on Facilities.txt was to add shields and more cargo space to spaceport facilities to represent the spaceport fortifications that I believe every spaceport should have by default.

One question though, how do you guys feel about adding 3 more shipyards facilities to regular tech comparable to temporal shipyards?
I just think that most racial traits are highly unbalancing.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand, some questions pop up on my forehead.
Is the AI somehow programmed/programmable to use similar upgrade paths?
Why did you take the Arcology (350,000) out of the path, I mean it could have a nice place after Megalopolis (250,000)?

Sidenote: It is really hard to capture AI homeworlds even in tactical combat after some 25 years. I guess in simultaneous/PBW it could be a non-capturable fortress with a few WP, troops and long range weapons...
I think, turn-based/tactical for single player is recommendable similar to Pirates&Nomads from my perspective. Mmh, or is it just that I am too bad...

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Well, reading these Posts is really bumming me out. I hadn't played Proportions yet, and was all set to after downloading the new patch, when my computer got zapped by lightning. Now, it may take me awhile before I get a new one. But reading these Posts gives me the idea that this is one much altered mod that I've got to play when I get a new computer.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe... not really sure about that one. Whatever you do to regular yards, I think the temporal spaceyard definitely needs to remain superior in some way.

Maybe allow some super-high level spaceyards (normal *and* temporal), but the increases in research/ price give diminishing returns in build rates, so that you can spend a century researching and building a level XII yard but only get 6000 build rate out of it. In this case, temporal yards should be 2 or 3 levels ahead of normal ones in terms of price and research cost, or make them comparatively expensive/ innefficient for the lower levels but the better option as you start to get to the higher build rates.

What I would really like to see is greater use of the repair ability on facilities: Distribution centres could have a repair rate of 1, and maybe the space port + resupply combo facility too. Also, how about a range of "repair yard" facilities that can be built alongside/ instead of space yards to help get all those damaged fleets repaired? Sure, you might end up with a huge breathable repairing 60+ components per turn, but given the premium value of facility slots in Proportions I don't think this could be considered an abuse/ exploit, especially with the armour getting leakier and leakier in this mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Up to a point. I tried to disperse Colonial tech so AI will have time to build minor cities on first colonised planets and then upgrade to cities+ It worked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But once AI reseacrh high level buildings it starts to build them from scratch.

Hmm... I think there is a way around it: PvK should assign different bogus ability to high level cities. Then if only minor cities bogus ability is used in construction_facilities, AI will always follow build-upgrade path ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good to see you back and well !

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a very good idea. I think all Spaceports should repair 5 comp per turns. Or 3.
Maybe the new levels of shipyards that i had in mind should not have that much of a building capacity increase but instead a huge repairing bonus.....maybe 10 components per turn or more?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You don't know what you are missing! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Proportions plays completely diferent. I never built any space shipyard base in the unmodded game, but in proportions you need to build them because your new colonies are real colonies, with a very low building capacity. Your Homeworld looks like a real homeworld, with an Orbital Ring of Shipyard Bases, huge cultural centers to represent the diferent cultures that make a race (think of countries) and your Homeworld produces the lion share of resources your empire gets.
And forget about those easy battles to conquer a Homeworld, in Proportions they can have a zillion WP defending them, as well as fighters and even troops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did't yet attempt to capture developed planets with latest 1.84 patch. It has a new feature(bug fix): WP die first, before troops. Prior to 1.84 it was almost impossible to slesh through infantry to kill WP and one can loose hundreds of ships. How is it now ?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You don't know what you are missing! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Proportions plays completely diferent. I never built any space shipyard base in the unmodded game, but in proportions you need to build them because your new colonies are real colonies, with a very low building capacity. Your Homeworld looks like a real homeworld, with an Orbital Ring of Shipyard Bases, huge cultural centers to represent the diferent cultures that make a race (think of countries) and your Homeworld produces the lion share of resources your empire gets.
And forget about those easy battles to conquer a Homeworld, in Proportions they can have a zillion WP defending them, as well as fighters and even troops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like I mentioned earlier, it does sound like fun. Is there some sort of strategy guide for this mod, or do I just have to read all of the Posts in this thread?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I've been thinking about putting in some "Atmospheric Bombers" and probably some fighters to be dropped on a planet like troops.

I was wondering which bonus they should have, to simulate air attacks on ground units.

Humm.... i think this is an overkill. When a regular fighter fires on a planet they are already doing this.

Oh well,....

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PvK gives good instructions in readme file you will get with download from his webpage.
You'll need the latest Version - 2.5.3

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Latest Version is 2.5.3.1.

Aloofi, you might want to consider fighters with cluster bombs for planetary attacks. Of course, you might also want to be careful not to wipe out the colony entirely. ;-)

Homeworlds are supposed to be very difficult to capture, naturally. This is both a realism issue, and a game balance issue, since capturing an intact or even semi-intact homeworld can give the captor a critical advantage over all empires with only one homeworld. However, it's quite possible (though certainly not easy without a very strong and appropriate force) to take one from the AI, or an unprepared player (humans are tempted to deploy outward rather than stock up on home defense that might never be tested).

I may add some more repair and construction levels and variations in a future Version, if/when I get to it. However, I tend to think that bases with construction and repair components provide plenty of ability to do this, and I like that they have a maintenance cost, a separate presence/target in combat, don't compete for facility slots, and don't remove the interesting obstacle and balance factor of having a signifigant time requirement to build major units and facilities. If it's possible to get a really big planetary construction rate, then it sort of erodes the balance and interesting limit on how long it takes to build the more expensive items. I like Dogscoff's suggestion of adding levels with diminishing returns. I had been thinking of adding more wimpy starting levels and a slower progression to the current levels, too, so construction becomes a more interesting choice for major research (or not).

Temporal tech has a major advantage there, but are you saying that their advantages are better than other racial techs', or better than 1500 points spent on other advantages? So far, I don't really see any of the racial techs as being clearly more powerful than the others. JLS was helping me evaluate that a bit, though I think one or both of us sort of forgot about doing that, or maybe an email didn't get through.

I'd be interested to hear from players who have tried a Temporal empire in Proportions - what were your game settings, how long did it take you to develop temporal spaceyards, and how much of an advantage did it seem to be once you got them?

PTF, Arcology is not on the urban upgrade path for two reasons. Firstly, the upgrade benefit of going from Minor City to Arcology seemed too much to me at 50% upgrade cost. Secondly, an Arcology is really not just a larger Megalopolis. You can't pile a bunch of megabuildings on top of a Megalopolis and get and Arcology (instead, you'd get two Megalopoli). An Arcology is something quite different, and has to be built from the ground up (also, it has cool new pics courtesy of Bill Elliott (mlmbd) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I remember we were talking about race balance, I sent you a list with a brief eval. of currant Racial Facilities…. As you recall I felt in BASE SE4 the Psychics got a bum deal with facilities and that religious trait is a possibly a very strong second selection http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In regards to Temporal Ship yards if called by (Palace): We discussed that late in the game the Temporal AI may get in trouble with Net resources by investing 3500 to 4500 Minerals a turn just to build a ship that has 400 to 1500 Maintenance.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 22:58: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm playing one now. It took me a few hundred turns to get it, but it has been a hard game. It is really nice having such a huge construction potential- I can turn out a battlecruiser in 3 turns at my homeworld- but what with my limited economy and the fact that my existing ships never seem to die (due to the leaky armour effects) I don't build that many new ships. I tend to just upgrade the old ones, and occasionally throw out little escorts and scouts to top up my harrassment fleet.

Building temporal yards on new colonies takes forever, and by the time the low-pop modifiers have been applied, they don't seem so great anyway- even with 80 million pop, they still only build 4 or 5 small troops in a turn.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that temporal yards don't seem to be over-powerful, imho. PvK: I can send you the savegame if you like. It's an interesting game for a number of reasons, not least the AI's state after four or five hundred turns...

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I'm confused with the armor, do the armor abilities stack?
If I put in a design 3 armored structures of the same kind that negates 3 damage per shot each will I get a total 9 damage negated?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. Emmisive armor abilities do not stack. Only crystalline and organic abilities stack.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wait wait, this one is just the regular armor in Proportions, Armored Structure III, and it says that it deflects 3 damage per shot.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, PvK has smeared the emissive ability all over the armour techs. I kinda like it this way. For the highest emmissive abilities, put in some of that armour that requires scaling.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess what I'm trying to say is that temporal yards don't seem to be over-powerful, imho. PvK:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with dogscoff; the guys that play Temporal in our LAN group also don't put much stock in the Temporal Yard Facility with the exception of just building it at the Home World.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you are saying that its pointless to have more than one armor structure?
I was using the scaled Armor Plating II and 3 armor structures.....
What if I put one Armor Structure III, one Advanced Armor Structure II and one Ultra Armor Structure II?
Will they stack?