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Re: OT: Alien Contact
IF > I totally agree on you with the God issue, hovewer I've discussed this with many of my christian friends and the discussions never lead anywhere, except as a social interaction.
But over to the Speed of Light. If information can travel faster than the speed of light (And that was also belived impossible not long ago) why can't we someday find a way to make matter travel faster than light? I know that currently the accpted theories don't allow it, but also that without string theory we can't make our theories fit together. And to prove string theory experimental will prove a real challange. [ February 27, 2003, 08:54: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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Look at it this way: The less stars you have the most truthfull to yourself you are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Tech never advanced as fast as in WW2, and after that the cold war gave us from the Space shuttle to the CD player going through microwave technology and stealth composite materials. A civilization without wars wouldn't have gone farther than collecting fruits form wild trees. That's why I'm convinced that if there is an alien civilization, and if they actualy make it here, its not gonna be pretty. |
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Look at it this way: The less stars you have the most truthfull to yourself you are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The fewer stars I have, the less I care about the rating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Also, you need to be pissed off from time to time. Anger is an emotion, and it needs to be expressed the same as other emotions do. Keeping any emotion pent up for too long leads to psychological disorders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Sometimes this can even lead to physical disorders (like ulcers, heart attacks, strokes, etc.), as emotions are really on their fundamental level a balance of chemicals in our brains and bodies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Quote:
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Tech never advanced as fast as in WW2, and after that the cold war gave us from the Space shuttle to the CD player going through microwave technology and stealth composite materials. A civilization without wars wouldn't have gone farther than collecting fruits form wild trees. That's why I'm convinced that if there is an alien civilization, and if they actualy make it here, its not gonna be pretty.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, that post has basically hit the nail on the head with a laser-guided hammer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Society needs a good big war every few generations to keep from stagnating. Wars also keep economies running strong. WWII was the only thing that got the world out of the Great Depression, after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ February 27, 2003, 18:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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What about a Kylie? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://www.kylieminogue.co.uk/gallery/images/red.jpg |
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Pictures of anyone are not going to lighten anything up. All they do is make the page take longer to load, and waste a lot of space. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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i agree that the bulk of our technological advances have come about from war or cold war times. even now the technology we have is from "war" between competing companies. what i am refering to by the dark ages is the fact that during that time most science was looked down upon and religion reigned. science was considered sorcery and black magic and the scentists persecuted and killed. if a society could have avoided that problem then they could be more advanced than us and would still be able to handle interaction with us. of course we have the nasty habit of if i cant have it no one can so perhaps the fact that no one has contacted us is best. then again they may be living with us at this time and we would not necessary know it.
edit: i dont care what IF says it was not a waste of time and space (bidi! bidi!). thanks for the picture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ February 27, 2003, 20:06: Message edited by: desdinova ] |
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Kylie nudes can be email directly to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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scientists have found evidence of non terran oxygen in our atmosphere.
The instrument ferreted out the tiniest molecules of stellar sand and glass, which carried a form of oxygen foreign to the Earth's solar system. These oxygen isotopes -- carrying a different number of neutrons from native oxygen -- lit up under the scanner, Messenger said. WE ARE BEING INVADED! unfortunately the article is just a few paragraphs from my internet provider so i dont know the whole story but they say it came from reuters. |
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Those Dark Ages only happened in Europe. The rest of the world went on developing new science without them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Arabs and Chinese in particular continued to make advances during the European Dark Ages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Confused Confucious philosophy with emphasis on harmony discouraged technical advancements and helped to bring about stagnation.
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And the chinesse invented the most important tech advance ever: Firearms. But it was the west the one that took that invention to the highest level. |
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What?? Is everyone off today or something? My god 108 hits in less than 24 hours. This is a first for any of my topics.
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You are both right. The Orient and Middle East did go through a phase similer to the European dark ages where technological advancment was stagnated due to political and religious pressures. Unfortunatly for them it came later, during the time when Europe was advancing again. The resulting technology gap allowed for the phase of European colonization that persisted into the industrial revolution. The East is only now really recovering from that.
Geo [ February 27, 2003, 20:47: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Didn't the ummm Italian Reseach Council or something beat C by 5% ??
I know up in Subury Ontario and at carleton U They are doing experiments with sub atomic travel at very fast speeds Up to C and perhaps they have passed C... i remember there was a slashdot on it Last year some time... They were sending the particles down and getting more at the receiving end... Something they have yet to explain... Perhaps those who travelled quicker than C ?? But don't quote me on this... It is all from memory. And I do not have the time to search for reference documents on it. |
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I think it is called tunnelling
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Interesting thread.
When looking at the bible there are many factors that must be taken into account. It is not just a matter of "I believe it, it's all true" vs. "it's unproven, it's all crap". You have to look at who wrote it and who (mis)interpreted it. One of the reasons that there has been so much confusion has been due to the differences between jewish and hellenistic cultures. Jewish culture (and especially the language) is very emotionally based, non-rational. This leads to the use of a lot of metaphor and such to get across the proper tone and meaning of what is being said. This contrasts greatly with the hellenistic view (held by the the greeks, rome, and especially the apostle Paul) which was extremely rational and litteral, very similar to the modern viewpoint of the westernized world. When rome adopted christianity they aquired a vast body of scripture that was steeped in metaphor, but was mistakenly accepted as literal. This was further complicated by the confusion of translating the hebrew texts to greek and latin. Much was altereddue to this. For example, in hebrew 'messiah' means 'king in waiting' or 'he who would be king'. It had no connotations of divinity (and was why Jesus was from the line of David, it was the royal lineage). Unfortunately, in greek the word messiah translates into 'christos' (a.k.a. Christ) which has connotations of godhood (like hercules and other demigods). Also, during the years of the early roman church, when the bible was being compiled into a single book there was much... editing... being done. Letters have been found from monks at the time (700-900 AD I can't quite remember the dates) discussing the necessity of destroying scriptural 'truths' since they were being used by satan and so were now 'false'. In other words, they were destroying/discrediting all scripture that did not fit with the official view of christianity. Remember that modern christianity is a result of a committee decision. When emperor constantine decided to adopt the christian religion he brought all the various christian sects and cults together to figure out what they actually believed. Whether christ was a man, a god, a bit of both, of something else. It was at this time that the whole god-the-father/god-the-son/trinity thing got hammered out. And this was under the direction of constantine, a man who was the high priest of the sol invictus sun cult until his deathbed where he allowed himself to be baptized in case these crazy christians were onto something. Oh, and the idea that God is a constant and unchanging omnipotent being cannot be supported. Take a look through the old testament, or just look at the Dr.Laura letter on the Canadian joke thread, and you'll see how large a change it was to 'love thy neighbor' and 'turn the other cheek'. That shows an evolution of God from guardian angel of abraham to storm/wargod of Israel to benefactor of jews and gentiles alike. I could go on for days but this is a long post as it is. The point is that there is a lot more going on here than I think either of you realize. Fyron: I can appreciate your passion (zeal?) but try to argue within the paradigm. A paragraph of you telling a man he is wrong six different ways does not advance your argument at all, and does not disprove his argument either. Probe the inconsistencies within the bible itself to make your point as opposed to unilaterally declaring the whole thing to be bunk. [ February 27, 2003, 21:28: Message edited by: QuarianRex ] |
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Tesco: thanks for reminding me. about half a year ago i also read an article about a research project... i think that was in the newspaper where i read it. The idea is that scientists were able (dont ask me how - physics isnt my major and it was a while ago) to accelerate particles to about 1.5 times light speed. I do not remember the details, what i do remember is that they encountered something that made them thing biological creatures wouldnt survive such an adventure using their current theories.
if you think about it, space age might not be that much far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif an interesting topic indeed. |
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i agree on the point regarding war and peace. i was wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif yea happens, so what http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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And the chinesse invented the most important tech advance ever: Firearms. But it was the west the one that took that invention to the highest level.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese. The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine. Quote:
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[ February 28, 2003, 00:41: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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But anyway... the Ottoman ruler was a type we know well today. I don't know if they had a word like 'Fundamentalist' in that era but that is certainly what we would call him. When he took over Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul, he decided to burn all the 'heathen' books the city was so well stocked with. His reasoning was wonderfully concise. "If the books contain information not in the Koran then they must be wrong, if they contain information already in the Koran then they are superfluous." So anyway, the various Byzantine scholars had to run away to preserve their learning and often their own lives. Since the Ottoman Empire had been encroaching from the East for centuries, they went WEST to Italy. Look at the date: 1453. This is not only the final end of the Roman Empire, it is also generally recognized as the beginning of the Renaissance. The Ottomans cut their own throats, as it were, by kicking off the Renaissance that would result in the rise of the Western European powers. [ February 28, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
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Ok... so I guess I only knew the very, very basics of that situation. Now I know more about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Where do the holy scriptures say that this is the only inhabited world anyway?
God could have created billions of alien races in His likeness. Why would have God created such a vast universe to place life only in this tiny little insignificant rock. About the age of an alien civilization, remember that human civilization has existed for a tiny fragment of Earth life. For example what would have happened if dinosaurs would have survived and had the chance to evolve into a sentient race. The point is that an alien civilization could have evolved long before humankind or long after. Also consider that earth like worlds were not created all at the same time, some may be much older and others younger. It is more plausible that an alien culture is either many millions of years ahead or behind us that in a similar cultural age. IMHO it is very plausible that many alien races are more advanced than us. It is also plausible that some of them could have already created ships like those I had described a few post ago. It is very unlikely that any of those ships will reach Earth anytime soon. Right why is it that according to most sci-fi a race = a nation? Most likely an alien world would have many countries with a complex history, and many wars, just like us. Is evolving into a single culture a requisite for reaching space-age? |
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Whatif there are other HUMANs out there? Like we were some sort of rebels or whatnot and were exiled to earth (ALA Starcraft style) and since we were stripped of technology we were put back millions of years, just my two cents but I myself have seen a UFO before, I was in Gladstone Michigan and ws riding inthe car with my mom. I look out the wondow over the lake and theres these 2 huge silver balls connected int he middle by a pillar hovering out there then they shot off were ont he horozion in a second then traveled in a diagnol line up... freaky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
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Here is a thought for ya to consider.
What if we are all that is left of life out there? What if there are no more planets for us to colonize? What if all that we will ever have is what we have here? Think of it this way; five people are stranded on a desert island with enough rations to Last one month. How long do you think it will take one of them to figure out that if he bumps off the other four, he will have enough rations to keep him alive for many months? What we have here and now is the best we will ever have it. Our resources are dwindling away and our population is increasing at a tremendous rate. Eventually there will not be enough to go around. If you take an empty bottle that takes exactly one hour to fill if you start by adding one peanut to it and every minute that follows you double the amount of peanuts you add to it, (1 then 2, then 4, then 8 etc), at what point will that bottle be half full? Albert Bartlett, a mathematician and economic specialist has shown without a doubt that math does not lie when it comes to growth and consumption of resources. Eventually our growth will out pace our ability to meet our basic demands. That democracy is reduced by growth and that freedom will diminish as our resources do and our population increases. No religion in the universe is going to save us from ourselves. We are here alone, on this fragile little planet out here in the farthest reaches of known space, all alone in the dark, with no hope for survival. There is going to be no salvation, no utopia, and no future for our race, our planet, or our concept of faith. God cannot save us, so stop hoping that he will. Our number has been punched before we were ever conceived. Do this, play a game like Civ3. You start out with this huge map and all this free space. Over time that free space becomes less and less as you expand. Eventually what was once vast open spaces is now all city and full of population. A hundred years ago most of the USA was still wilderness and unpopulated, but now, freeways and housing developments everywhere. Think how bad it is going to be in the next hundred years? Just remember this simple philosophy, nothing really matter five minutes after you do it. For in a hundred years, what you have done will mean nothing. In a thousand years no one will ever know you did it. I give us about fifty more years before all hell breaks out and the war to survive begins. No amount of money will protect you when this happens, no amount of faith, no amount of hope. It is simply going to be a matter of survival, for if we do not do something soon; Mother Nature is going to do it for us. [ February 28, 2003, 04:01: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ] |
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Did you know the Romans invented the Steam Engine.
Guess what they used it for. Yep .... when people would walk into the Baths in Rome their was pressure plates on the ground. When they stepped on it the doors would open... All Powered by a steam engine. On the topic of the Bible. Fyron you should not disreguard it. It is a Scientific book written many many years ago. If it was written today it would resemble the current way we figure out life which is Mathmatics. And the majority of science that pretains to perception we currently believe to be true will eventually be proven wrong.... History has prooven this. It also prooves I can not spell. |
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Wow CNC, you want to try and depress me a little more? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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About tunneling.
I haven't had time to read these link yet: http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoes...nelingftl.html http://www.comcity.com/distance-time...tunneling.html But if anyone has the time please do and sum it up. If I remember correctly it was somethiung about light passing faster through a grid then through vacuum. Another experiment: (That I haven't read yet, am (kind of) at work, will read later) http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008F9A7-7781-1C76-9B81809EC588E F21&pageNumber=1&catID=9 But wasn't it something about two quarks (I hope that's the english word for "kvarkar") in harmony changes state at the same time disregarding any difference when one of the quarks alter state? (Sorry about posting links I haven't read yet, but they where on my "read" list and I wanna post before I go and become "un-connected" again for a while.) [ February 28, 2003, 07:54: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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CNC: You're wrong=-)
1. We already produce more food than the population of the Earth can eat. All the famine and starvation in the world comes down to economics and logistics, not underproduction. 2. The Earth is nowhere near full yet. There are massive tracts of land as yet unused for farming and living space. By the time that runs out, we will have the technology to exploit the ocean floors, which will effectively treble the amount of surface available to us. 3. If the Earth does become overcrowded, some kind of catastrophic event (war, environmental disaster) will reduce the human population, but it won't wipe us out. We are too good at adapting ourselves and our environment to our own needs to be extinguished that easily. I think we could even (just about) survive a meteor hit and subsequent nuclear winter. Also, our current society is now a global phenomenon- unless you destroyed every country in the world it would be a shorter climb back up to our current state than it was from the dark ages back up to the level of civilisation that preceded them. 4. We WILL make it up into space. It will probably centuries or even millenia before we leave this solar system, but I firmly believe we will. In the meantime, The moon, Mars, the asteroid belt and some of the Jovian satellites will all be mined and/ or colonised. Once we achieve self-sufficiency away from mother earth, the human race will be truly unstoppable. |
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This thread is awesome! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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I've been thinking about the Alien thing, and I have reached the conclusion that if an Alien civilization have the capability of coming all the way to here, it have to be an agressive civilization, because "thirst for scientific knowledge" is not enough to fund the cost of R&D of space exploration tech. They have to have a major motive pushing them to the stars.
Now, they also need to have a very advance industrial infrastructure, and what's the most advance/powerful/capable economical organization? Yes, the evil corporations. This one scenario of first contact: An scout vessel from Race X comes to our beloved solar system. It chart the system, run their planetary mineral scanners, and deploy a couple guiding beacons. Back on Planet X, MegaCorporation Z buys the mining rights for our solar system, and ask for a loan from the Galactic Bank to initiate mining operations. Mega Z starts minig first the rich mineral deposits in Mars, but they soon discover that our planet is even richer , and they start to plan a mining colony over here. But, of course, the native population of Earth is going to be problem, so they send a drone to drop us a Virus Bomb V. After that they land a couple of Corporate Marines to claim the planet and make sure that we were wiped out, then they collect all the minerals found in our cities, especially the gold from Fort Knox, and finally they start building a mining complex to mine our planet's core, financed by the Galactic Bank. |
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Aloofi,
Why would they go to all that trouble? They could get us to enslave each other, and then we could mine it for them. Of couse this approach requires some finesse and control of local resources. At one time in Europe pepper corns were more precious than gold. You could become very rich and powerfull by trading it. In modern times, copyrights and patents are the real bonanza. They just have to stay ahead of the curve and slow down the competition. Take Microsoft for example, PLEASE!!! |
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Also, their goverment might have laws prohibiting the training of primitive native in their technology. Advanced industrial tech beats the hell out of slave workforce. Slaves by default have not interest in producing, or in quality. Plus slaves cost money to maintain, otherwise they die out rather quickly. There is a reason why slavery was abolished in our culture, and believe me, it have nothing to do with human rights. |
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Hey, I found a better Mandy.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
http://movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/ph...hathaway11.jpg |
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Well the Bible is a mixture of myths, history, philosophy, how the world/universe was though to work, and moral advice.
Yes it was written by men, but it is pointless to discuss if those men were directly guided by God. Most believers understand that although most truths in the Bible are timeless and as a whole it is still valid today, it was written for the situation and understanding of people of those times. Taking literally and believing any religious scriptures blindly without thinking makes you a fanatic. And it's pointless to discuss with a fanatic. IIRC overpopulation was going to be a problem before long year 2000, but nothing happened. Conflicts in the world today have little or nothing to do with that. We're not stranded in a desert island with counted rations like CNC said. We've been living in this island for many generations, self sustained by fruits growing in its trees, there are more efficient production methods yet to implement. Population growth is limited by the available resources and it's also a matter of time before someone builds a boat and tries to get to another island. No I don't believe there are other humans out there, but how similar or different than humans other races will be? I really dislike the sci-fi idea that sentient races will invariably evolve into a human like shape. I believe that there are millions of alien races out there. But that they are so out of reach for us as we are out of reach for them. A dark age and speed of development of every race are irrelevant. Human civilization is but an instant in Earth lifetime, and other planets can be much older or younger than Earth. It would be an unlikely coincidence if civilization is as developed as ours. Among those millions of races that must exist out there, there must be many races that are millions of years ahead of us. I agree with Dogscoff we will eventually make it up into space. And those races that are more advanced than us must have probably made it up into space themselves. And once space travel is a reliable everyday technology, a space-faring race will try to move beyond its star system. A ship capable of a centuries long trip will not be profitable for a corporation or military expansion, no one would consider something so uncertain and long term a worthy investment. It will be either a multi-generetion ship or a ship with all crew in animated suspension. They will need to be independent from their mother culture, as distance grows not even communication will be possible and time passes the civilization that sent them may have fallen. Will they feel like living in ships forever or will they seek suitable planet to settle? If the planet they find an inhabited planet, will they: 1- leave them alone and do find another planet. Perhaps just stopping by to say hello, perhaps not letting the natives know they've been there. 2- exterminate or enslave the natives and colonize the planet 3- establish relations with natives, and settle in peace. 4- split their limited number and do two or all three of the things above. Remember they will probably be outnumbered but count with higher technology. |
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But if a culture can build a ship than with limited resources can survive in deep space for an indefinite time, they surely have no problem surviving in their homeworld.
So unless their sun is dying or our they are self destructing their race in war I doubt that survival press them to do it. |
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http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0116629/...z_indeicau.jpg http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0116629/...z_indeiccu.jpg [ March 03, 2003, 15:39: Message edited by: Aloofi ] |
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I agree that alien are probably very diferent from us. I mean, life have been found even in the deepest places of the oceans were life was thought impossible, thus life can be present in conditions that seem very harsh to us.
I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that every planet out there have some form of life. Though intelligent life seems to be a diferent ball game. So there is probably very little chance that aliens are going to look like the Naboo... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://www.famedandframed.com/store/...9991042674.jpg |
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Sentient life requires much more sedate conditions than microbes and small organisms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: OT: Alien Contact
My wife is from Roswell NM USA, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif ... and I understand her. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Oh yea, Her dad was the Air Force mechanic in the Roswell New Evidence documentary. His buddy could not keep his mouth shut. His buddy could not stop drinking and messing around with married women either. His buddy was shot dead shortly afterwards. [ March 03, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: Wardad ] |
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