Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

Gamespot.Com took their time and posted their review of MOO3.

Gamespot Review of MOO3

(They rated it 6.7 out of 10)

[ March 06, 2003, 15:23: Message edited by: raynor ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

The thing that is telling is the Player Review average score...4.4. And thats with 7 reviews so its not just one person. 6 of the 7 totally panned the game.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, this is true. But imagine, if you will, how much better the AI of SEIV might have been if it had no tactical combat, no multiplayer support, no support for modding, no realistic strategic combat, no ship designs, etc. The developers of Gal Civ said they left out multiplayer so that they could focus all their time on a truly outstanding AI. As such, the game will succeed or fail based upon the strength of their AI.

The goal of Gal Civ was to create a multiplayer experience while playing the single player game. The developers coded six AI's largely from scratch.

Here is an interview with the developers that talks more about that:

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/games/...ons_interview/

[ March 09, 2003, 08:44: Message edited by: raynor ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, this is true. But imagine, if you will, how much better the AI of SEIV might have been if it had no tactical combat, no multiplayer support, no support for modding, no realistic strategic combat, no ship designs, etc. The developers of Gal Civ said they left out multiplayer so that they could focus all their time on a truly outstanding AI. As such, the game will succeed or fail based upon the strength of their AI.

I am *hoping* that the AI will be truly awesome and that it will take geometrically longer to master than, for example, the AI of SEIV.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But if you take all of those things out, it is no longer a very good game. A 4X game without those things has no replay value (and quite possibly no first play value http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You may be right. If I had my preference, I would ask for challenging AI plus all of those things. It may very well be that the lack of all those things will detract so much from the game that I won't like it.

On the other hand, it may turn out that the AI is absolutely fantastic. It may turn out that it is 100x better than any other game that claims to be part of the space 4x genre. In that case, I may be willing to put up with a game that doesn't have those features.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You may be right. If I had my preference, I would ask for challenging AI plus all of those things. It may very well be that the lack of all those things will detract so much from the game that I won't like it.

On the other hand, it may turn out that the AI is absolutely fantastic. It may turn out that it is 100x better than any other game that claims to be part of the space 4x genre. In that case, I may be willing to put up with a game that doesn't have those features.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only reason why most games have poor AIs is because they have features. GalCiv is looking to have no features, so of course good AI can be written for it. Look at Chess. It has no customization possible (the pieces are always the same, the board is always the same, all of the rules are always the same, there is no advancement required to get better pieces...). You get so many of each piece, and you can't build more (well, you can convert pawns into other things, but that is not at all the same). There are many challenging Chess programs out there because there is a lack of features in Chess. The lack of possibilities (as compared to most 4X games- not saying that Chess has no possibilities in it, just speaking in relative terms) is what allows good AIs to be written, as they do not have to be anywhere near as flexible. But, does computerized Chess eat up all of your free time like SE4, MOO 2, Civ 2 (and other good games) do? Probably not. In order for these types of games to be good ones, there needs to be more features, not fewer features. I am not saying that GalCiv will not be a good as an advanced Version of Chess; it very well might be. But, it does not look like it has much to offer in comparison to more "complete" 4X games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 09, 2003, 09:50: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I am just sick, physicaly sick over the Last few games I have boughten. They claim to be the best thing to ever happen to PC Gaming, but they have all flopped horribly.

Moo3, a nice try, but falls way way short.
SC4, A major let down for me personally.
UR2, A major let down.

I am looking forward to GalCiv, and even though it is only SP, I still hope that it will offer me a lot of hours of game play. I really need something new to play. I have been relagated back to playing older games just to have something new to play.

No offense, but SEIV has lost a lot of its appeal for me recently, I still love the game, but I seldom play it any more. (SEIV Blues http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

It will pass I am sure.

But in the Last two months I have forked out nearly $150 bucks for games that are worth less than their $10 predacessors sale price. That is very sad to me.

I really have no games that I am looking forward to playing at all any more. I hope that something comes along and snages my interest.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

Starfury? SEV? Why don't you look forward to them? I am sure they will be great games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A tip: Try The war engine from Shrapnel. A wonderful game with a lot of modules. And it has nice modifications.
One of my long term Favorites. It has even a tactical spaceship combat mod.

If you like excessive micromanagment and if it does not matter when the game is WWII then try Uncommon Valor from Matrix games. The best pacific wargame in operational scale ever. Water ships instead of space ships. But you have carriers, logistics and even ground troops up to battallion level.

tschüss
Klaus

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

Who knows, maybe the various companys will read this forum and get "heads up". Maybe they will change their style.

There is plenty of room for other tactical and stratigic *X games on various themes.

hmm, maybe Arron can make a bundle and sell them the code to SEIV, (with certain limits). Na, too many potential problems.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it is funny that you brought in the chess angle. I was thinking of mentioning that myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You may be right. I will definitely miss designing my own ships and fighting tactical battles. On the other hand, it *does* look like Gal Civ might include just enough cool features to make the game a bit more appealing than chess.

If the AI presents enough of a challenge, Gal Civ may be the space game I play single player while SEIV is the game I play multiplayer.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I agree with the Fyron's argument too...
A challenging AI for a complex game is a lot more complex to create.

A feature that some beta testers (like me), suggested to Aaron, was to include some kind of language that we could use to "programm" the AI ourselves...
Can remember that "Stars! Supernova" was moving in that direction, and also their creators said that the AI had learning capabilities (God, really would liked to see this game in my HD!), and know that an underground game named "Solar Vengance" (http://www.silicmdr.com./solven.htm) have the feature to program the AI.

Really I would love to have a tool like this... and know that many people would be happy to create a more complex scripts to improve the AIs.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

If you have direct access to the AI routines, then it becomes possible to mod good AIs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But since we don't in most games, the AIs remain poor. That would indeed be a great feature for SE5.

[ March 10, 2003, 04:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure that is true. As a player you can add Manufacturing/Mining/Farming/Research/Govt/Recreation to a DEA. But you can *never* add facilities that enhance the facility or DEA. Examples include:
Hydroponic Farm
Soil Enrichment
Spaceport
Deep Core mining</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a mod out now, that lets you build those buildings....i know first hand, cause i use it....

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am a fan of SE4....and i also really, REALLY like MOO3....with the mods that ppl have released, it fixes pretty much all the ppl's complaints...now, i know that a game shouldn't be fixed by mods...but still, I find MOO3 VERY good...

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a given. But you have to admit that there are some folks who bought SEIV thinking it was playable as the single player game. But it just isn't. All those features are great in multiplayer. But, as a single player game, SEIV has no features because it has no AI.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

Thanks for the info on the MOO3 mods.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IMO SEIV AI is not so bad. I mean which AI of a 4X game is really that good? Eg I hate all those AI cheats from MOO (triple amount of fleet points and money without even mentioning it in the manual) and CIV. (the same problem with all 3 Versions)

A problem of the AI of SEIV is the immense complexity of the game. The AI has not only to handle the myriard standard game options. It has also to handle all those additional mods. And for this it is quite good I think.
For SEV I would wish a more simple but more effective diplomacy model. This could help to make the AI even better.

tschüss
KlausD

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dissagree 100% with your view that SE4 has no AI.

As I wrote many times here, I'm sure the AI still can be improved, right?

Also, I'm sure that the AI has problems playing in big galaxies, when have many potential places to attack/defend at the same time.
For example, is usual that the AI doesn't know what to do with a big fleet when need to defend 2 systems at the same time.
Usually the AI move the fleets in one direction, and at the next turn to the other direction... then in fact the fleet doesn't do anything!
And finally, I know that the AI doesn't care about many of the Diplomatic options, then, think that playing against the AI, SE4 is mostly a wargame, in the sense that the diplomatic options are less important (in MP is very different of course).

But, to say that SE4 has no AI... well, I'm 100% sure that you're wrong about it.

More than once, I wrote that playing in small galaxies against 3 or 4 TDM AIs (some of the good ones... and these races are mostly warlike) and high bonus (and with AI vs humans if I want more challenge), usually I LOST my games (even toda!).
Trying to be fair with myself, know that I'm not a bad SE4 player and I was playing the game from a long time... then, if still I can lose a game against the AI, think I have good reasons to say the AI is not so bad.

================================================== ====================
I think that the people who believe that SE4 has no AI, is the people that like to play epic games with BIG galaxies (sometimes with 255 systems, and most the time not playing AI vs humans).
================================================== ====================

Honestly would prefer that the SE4 AI could be more strong, or at least could cheat in the high levels like every 4x game (for example, in Moo and Moo2 was pretty obvious that the AI knew my unprotected planets to attack them). But can't to avoid recognize that SE4 has a very decent AI.

IMHO, a more than average AI if I compare this game with other 4x games

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

When you look at other space games, typically the AI is given less than a 100% bonus at the highest level of difficulty. (twice the production). In Space Empires IV, an easy game is played with that level of bonus. An average game is played with medium bonus. A hard game is played with high bonus (or 5x production.)

At that level, yes, I would agree it is extremely hard to beat the AI--especially in small galaxies.

But I would argue that the very definition of small, medium and high bonus is the strongest evidence of a poor AI.

Similarly, if the game has any AI at all, then it should win just as easily on a huge map as on a small map. Granted, it will take longer. The fact that you say that isn't so makes me think that its wins on smaller maps are more coincidence than anything else.

Let me hasten a couple of things. First, the TDM races are TONS better than the ones installed by default. I think it is a mistake to play the game without them. Second, the AI *is* getting better. I still remember when the AI built mostly research stations on a huge 150% mineral world.

But the AI never has and never will make effective use of half the cool features that are available to the human players in the multiplayer game. In that context, and if Gal Civ *does* turn out to have the AI they are promising, I may prefer a subset of features but an AI that uses all of them to an infinite array of features but an AI that can't use most of them.

[ March 11, 2003, 01:02: Message edited by: raynor ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

If the game had no AI, you would not be able to play it SP. Saying that it has no AI is, as MB said, 100% wrong. Saying that it has bad AI, on the other hand, could be a valid point. But saying that it has no AI is wholely wrong.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coincidence? Really? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Seems obvious to me that you never have played games as I suggested, and must say that these games are really funny to me!

I have played many MP games and in those games, mostly I had the luck to win (for example, I was second in the first Survivor tournament done by GEO). Then, is hard to believe to me, that I lost aprox 50% of my games against the AI by coincidence!!!
But maybe my luck only works with humans! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Or
maybe the game settings that I use against the AI are really hard.

I was not saying that SE4 is Deep Blue. But I'm sure that with the right game settings, a player can have a good challenge.

I don't claim to have the universal truth, and understand that you could think different than me, ok?

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't believe that you have been beat by the AI. At high bonus on a small map, the game is very difficult to beat. With a 5x production bonus and a computer opponent one system away, you are in for a pretty miserable time if not impossible time.

What I meant by coincidence is that you aren't losing because the AI is trying to beat you. Instead, you are losing because you got in the way of its random movement of ships. If the AI is going to send ships to attack two or three nearby systems every so often, then the AI isn't really going to present much of a challenge on a map with hundreds of systems. But on a map with only a few dozen systems, the 2x, 3x or 5x production is going to wipe you out long before you can acquire enough planets to bring your superior strategy to play.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Liar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
If it had no AI you could still play SP, but it would really be SP, just you and the universe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

It's true that SE4 has an AI...but you'd be amazed at what dumb things (i'm not saying SE4 AI is dumb, it's pretty good for a complex game as Se4) can officially be labelled as Artificial Intelligence

[ March 11, 2003, 10:52: Message edited by: Lemmy ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Ok. I understand your view.
But then, what game have a good AI for you??
I can't remember any game that I could think: "Hey, I'm really playing against an smart opponent!" (always talking about to play against the AI of course!).
I hope GC would be. I hope SEV or maybe Stars Supernova would be released some day... but honestly can't remember a good AI with your request (It mean to me: act as an intelligent entity).

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

*scratches his head*

Errr.... I can't really remember playing any other space games besides SEIV for the past two years.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

does aaron read this board?

if yes, why does he never bother to reply?

if no, why are we bothering to post this stuff?

it seems a 1.2.5 patch is out for moo3, anyone play with it yet? how is it now? update?

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I have read about a patch that came out about 1 month ago, I don't know which number. Was the Last patch I have read the feedback from, didn't even bother to install, and decided to leave and definitely never return.
Most but not all bugs were fixed, bit the rest of the bugs still make the game near unplayable - in my opinion. Plus, the basic concept, you look and press turn while the game simulates your empire with as many dumb decisions as possible has not been changed. You still cannot turn off your vicerois (=ministers) completely, you still cannot control the most basic functions, and even if you try to control some of the less important functions you will be kicked in the *** by an user interface that forces you to click about 5 to 10 times for every single action you want to make.

[ August 07, 2003, 20:46: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

lol, thats just incredible

*sigh*

i really wanted to love it
with a good ui, i might have loved it

i *like* the idea of macro vs micro...
(esp since my pbw games at turn 150 usually take 4 or 5 hours of contanst detailed orders;)

i might pick up a used copy to play around with for a cheap price if they ever fix the ui problems

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I don't know if this has been mentioned already here but...

There are apparently large blocks of code in MOO3 which were written by people no longer with the MOO3 Team, and the remaining people don't understand or know how to make heads or tails of these blocks of code to fix any problems which may be hiding in there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The general feeling comming out of Atari is that they aren't going to support MOO3 anymore then they already have. People are now clinging to the great white hope that could be MOO4. Atari isn't in any great hurry for another MOO game though...

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

So I guess it wasn't such a good idea to layoff most of the design staff. Which they did immediately after releasing the game.

The computer gaming industry is in pretty pathetic condition right now. Having both MOO3 and Civ3 flop within a single year...

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I will thank the company that made this game simply for bringing to market a game where, purportedly, the AI that controls a Player's units will drop troops on a planet and destroy the planet in the same turn. The Savage in my stands up and cheers (yells incoherently, really) every time I think about this.

Other than that it is a disappointment, of course. A heart breaking disappointment. But the Savage doesn't care. He doesn’t even understand.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

To be fair, SE4 will do that to. Abet only if your troops loose, not while they're on the ground. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, but that was the important part. That's worth some * on the Genocide rating.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

How about making a MoO2 mod in order to help draw in some more people?

Plug in the Tech tree, add some shipsets, get new button graphics...

Then when you post a screenshot, it'll really grab them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

what we really need is to grab moo3's starmap and get that to work inside se4

**drools**

**wipes drool off chin, shirt collar and pants**

(and fix the initiative problem)- then we're all set crazy fun

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I said that about the map back on the "day" Moo3 came out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Glad someone else agrees. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A little less buggy, but no more fun than before. So much wasted potential... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A little less buggy, but no more fun than before. So much wasted potential... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This must be the first time I have seen you post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I do get so depressed when I think of MOO3.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I started on a MOO2 mod once but never finished it, and started on another one just the other day (probably will never finish it either)... want to see what I have so far? (Mostly ideas and a few data files)

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

I'd like to see a MOO2-mod too. Specifically, in MOO2, ships were tough, took a long time to build and were powerful. In SE4, ships are disposable and a dime a dozen. I'd like to see a MOO2 mod that reflects this.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

ed you and i should finsih the t-g-m mod

as i have moo2 , IG2 , and stars in there.

All of it... And We seem to think on the same wave lenght http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Double or triple armor and shield strengths, halve weapon damage, and triple all component and ship costs. That would go a long way to making ships less disposable and tougher. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gotta make shield regenerators much, much more powerful too.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

best to change to topic to m003 flop. IG3/GA cancelled, Stars gone supernova

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

The real problem is that it's so *^$^&$ easy to concentrate fire in the 'I Go, You Go' combat system. Every single ship you've got can fire on ONE enemy ship without concern for its own tactical situation. Meaning that as soon as you have 5 or more ships of roughly equivalent technology on a side it's 'poof' time.

Real time combat, or at least 'impulse' combat, with very finely divided turns allowing more distributed opportunities to fire on both sides, is the best solution to this problem. Inceasing armor and shield strength will help some but is not a complete solution.

[ August 09, 2003, 15:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TGM mod? what was that, I forgot? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gotta make shield regenerators much, much more powerful too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It will take 4 times as many shots to destroy a ship (at least). This means you have more rounds for the shields to regenerate. Of course, doubling their regen rates would be good too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And as a consquence combat will have to be adjusted to 120 rounds max vs 30 for any meaningful result. And then there is an issue with supply usage per shot and for movement. Essentially you'll end up with longer combat sequences that will end essentially the same way.

Yes ships are disposable, but I think it is a result of how other gameplay factors are balanced. You cannot change one factor without affecting the others.

Re: oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?
 

No, combat should definitely not be increased to 120 rounds... that completely defeats the entire point of slowing it down...